The government of the United States will collapse

Like many of you, I have been following the actions of our nation’s leaders over the past year or two as they have struggled to find an adequate response to the economic distress in which we are now embroiled. At times I have wondered if the financial crisis has been painted to be worse than it actually is until I read reports of those added to the monthly unemployment rolls.

I had to stop and think for a minute if I knew of anyone in my immediate circle of associates who had lost their job. I couldn’t think of any, but Carol reminded me of two or three. In each case the reason given by the employer was “the recession.” I also remember that the usual cost of living raise granted by my own employer at the end of each year was not offered last year.

I think there can be no doubt that we are passing through some perilous and uncertain times. There are many doom and gloom prophets having a field day with this hue and cry, and in spite of the title of this essay, I don’t want to join their ranks. I am fundamentally an optimist and believe that given America’s freedom and opportunity, we will rise above this current situation.

Short-term outlook

A large part of my optimism about the immediate future of the United States comes from my religious beliefs. I follow closely the words of the leaders of my church whom I believe are prophets and seers. While they continue to teach us about personal righteousness, I do not find their conference addresses to be full of dire warnings or immediate calls for drastic action.

Don’t get me wrong. They have been warning us for many years to be prepared for emergencies, specifically by making sure that we have sufficient food, water and supplies on hand to last for many months. Mormons are well known for storing a year’s supply of such items in their homes and I am no different. I am confident that we could last several months without replenishment.

I am also confident that the time has not yet arrived for the catastrophic events that we usually associate with the end of the world scenario that can best be found in the Book of Revelation. However, I do not dismiss the possibility that the United States may pass through something similar to what happened in Russia when the former Soviet Union collapsed back in 1991.

Long-term outlook

Is it possible that the government of the United States could collapse? If so, what could bring that on and what would be the outcome? If you have studied the collapse of the Soviet Union, you know that a large part of the cause there was economic in nature. The government owned all property and businesses, subsidized money-losing farms and factories and controlled prices.

I am not the first to point out the similarities to the collapse of the Soviet Union with what is happening in the United States right now. The United States government is moving into a very similar position of becoming the owner of our highest financial institutions, subsidizing many of the money-losing enterprises. This draws us closer to socialism and away from a free market.

I am among the ranks of those who believe that the stimulus bill about to be passed is not a good thing for our nation. I am appalled by the cost of the measures being considered. I do not see how we can go into debt like this and not be burned in the long run. Will China continue to buy our debt and if so, what will they require in return for their huge investment in the United States?

Prophecies of early LDS leaders

We don’t hear much any more about what some of our early Mormon leaders said when they spoke of the future destiny of the United States. A lot of time has passed since these statements were uttered and I suspect that most members of the church have discounted them as being made without the benefit of the additional century of history now passed, giving us added perspective.

Joseph Smith stated on several occasions that, “the government will be utterly overthrown and destroyed,” and that “Congress…shall be broken up as a government.” In addition the prophet Joseph is quoted as saying, “A terrible revolution will take place in the land of America, such as has never been seen before; for the land will be literally left without a supreme government…”

President Woodruff
was more emphatic when he asked, “…can the American nation escape? The answer comes, No; its destruction, as well as the destruction of the world, is sure…Sooner or later they will reap the fruits of their own wicked acts, and be numbered among the past.” On another occasion he said, “The American nation will be broken in pieces like a potter’s vessel…”

A nation in pieces

You may have read the predictions of the Russian academic Igor Panarin. From the Wall Street Journal we read, “…economic decline, and moral degradation will trigger a civil war next fall and the collapse of the dollar. Around the end of June 2010, or early July, he says, the U.S. will break into six pieces.” Can you imagine a civil war here in the United States in the fall of 2009?

Perhaps you recall this statement by Orson Pratt, an early LDS apostle. “State will be divided against state, city against city, town against town, and the whole country will be in terror and confusion; mobocracy will prevail and there will be no security, through this great Republic, for the lives or property of the people.” This statement was made after the Civil war of 1861-65.

Referring to the Civil war of 1861-65, President John Taylor said, “We had a great war upon this continent some years ago; but there will yet be wars pass through these United States…” He also said, “You will see worse things that that, for God will lay his hand upon this nation, and they will feel it more terribly than even they have done before. There will be more bloodshed…”

The coming civil war

“Their great and magnificent cities are to be cut off. New York, Boston…and numerous other cities will be left desolate…the whole nation will be broken up. There shall be a fleeing from one city to another, from one state to another, from one part of the continent to another, seeking refuge, from the devastations of bandits and armies; then shall their dead be left unburied.”

The above quote is from Orson Pratt, who left us the best descriptions of the great American civil war of the last days, a prophecy yet to be fulfilled. He said, “It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood…they will go forth destroying and being destroyed…going forth in bands and destroying and pillaging the land…the whole country…will be wasted away…”

“The time will come when there will be no safety in carrying on…peaceable pursuits…these will be neglected and the people will think themselves well off if they can flee from city to city, from town to town and escape with their lives.” In one particularly foreboding statement, Brigham Young agreed with Orson and said that the whole government will become a mob. Hmmm…

Summary and conclusion

Yes, I believe that the government of the United States will collapse and that we will then see another American civil war. I also believe that the government will become much larger before that day arrives. I am opposed to government growth and more government indebtedness. But it seems clear that we have started down that path and nothing seems to keep us from following it.

I am not so sure that Igor Panarin was that far off in his predictions of how America would become split up into six pieces. It may not happen as soon as he foretells, but the scenario he describes seems plausible. I am also fairly confident that his reasons offered for the collapse are accurate – economic decline and moral degradation. It is obvious that they are both happening.

This was all foretold by the Prophet Joseph Smith and other leaders of the LDS Church over 160 years ago. The fact that it is not being emphasized by our current leaders leads me to believe that it is not as eminent as Mr. Panarin believes. I am hopeful that we yet have time to accomplish much good before these terrible prophesied catastrophic events of the last days come upon us.

—————————————————

For additional information, including the sources of the quotes from Joseph Smith, Orson Pratt, Brigham Young and John Taylor, see “The United States in Prophecy,” chapter four from The Coming of the Lord by Gerald N. Lund. Also see “Internal Wars and Collapse of the United States Government,” chapter IV from Prophecy – Key to the Future by Duane S. Crowther.

Credit for the graphic of America in six parts goes to the Wall Street Journal

30 comments
Bryan
Bryan

Wow...epic posts and commentary! I'm just eating up every bit of it. I know it has been a while since all previous posts, but I just wanted to make a comment: There is a man in my ward who has been issued a new calling, I believe from the stake president. This man teaches the Gospel Doctrine class and is an intense and phenomenal orator and teacher. He used to be a stake president at one time as well...He's a no-nonsense type. Great man. Anyways, his new calling is something like an area representative. Honestly, I have no clue exactly what it's called. But I do know that it involves gaining the support of local government authorities according to the example he told us--which, to a degree, was greatly successful. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? I'll have to ask him what exactly the calling is again, but I'm just wondering if perhaps there is a smidgen of a relation to some things that have been brought up already.

Crusty
Crusty

Two things... What freedoms? You mean relative freedoms...Compared to China or Cuba? You've been disillusioned into thinking we're free. Just because your grade school teachers said you're free, we sing songs about being free, and we go to war in the name of freedom; doesn't mean we're free. And, what about all the suffering our government is causing people to endure right now? Is it OK to let that go on indefinitely, because we're scared of the suffering that might result from a revolution?2nd thing...I agree, peace and solace come from within. Heaven is a state of mind, which can be achieved as much anywhere here on earth as it can be achieved in the afterlife. So, why fear a complete reorganization of the US?

Tony
Tony

Two things: As a Latter day saint, I love the freedoms we enjoy in America and surely feel it will be a sad day when such things come to pass...i think of all the innocent men, women, and children who will be afflicted by such tribulation.2nd thing is, I take comfort that no matter what happens, we have been promised by God and even JS that there will be peace, solace, and safety in Zion and her stakes.

Crusty
Crusty

Personally, I look forward to the day when America will fall and become divided. I believe it's not something we should be dreading, rather it's something we should look forward to. Optimism is hoping it will fall; pessimism is hoping it will endure. I can't think of any good reason why we would want it to endure. We are as Socialist or more Socialist as the European countries that we have long labeled "Socialist." I can't think of anything worth saving. We sing about freedom, praise the USA for being a free country, and we even go fight wars in the name of protecting freedom; then every chance we get, we rob ourselves and other people of it in the ballot boxes.I don't see any reason why a faithful member of the LDS church would want such an institution to endure. A person's spirituality is far from dependent on any government. Maybe when President Benson said the USA will endure, he meant the spirit of the USA will endure. I hope that spirit is the spirit of freedom and not Socialism or forced morality.That Russian is anything but prophetic. Why would the country split in the way he thought it would? Why would South Carolina unite with the NE? Why would most of Texas unite with the south? Why would Utah & Idaho unite with California? Why wouldn't half of CA, AZ, and NM unite with Mexico? If the U.S. was completely disorganized, why would state lines remain? His assessment has absolutely no credibility. Knowing nothing about the different geographical regions (or the U.S. in general), he drew a bunch of lines all over the map. ...Hardly insightful or realistic...LDS Anarchy, I can't believe you would hope the US would endure. Explain why, or clarify that's not what you want. If righteous people want to uphold the Constitution, then they should be supporting the downfall of the current government, state succession, and eventual re-organization under Constitutional law.

MarkS
MarkS

The Russian prof was out of his mind--certainly Utah and probably Idaho will end up in the CNAR with the center of Canada--Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and part of Ontario. BC definitely goes with CaliOrWaC.As was said a few posts earlier, serious commentary may now proceed...

ldsanarchy
ldsanarchy

Tim, I just now came across your post. Yesterday, I finished writing a post on my own blog in which I expounded D&C 87. Both subjects seem to speak of the same subject. Coincidence or inspiration? Or is it just that the economic situation has everyone thinking the unthinkable?One more thing: Last Sunday, someone at church, thinking that my wife might be interested, out of the blue handed my wife a piece of paper (typist is unknown) which had the following verbatim text on it:AMERICA WILL SURVIVEAlthough there may be lying and deceit, and there may be wickedness in high places and breaking down of constituted government, we know that America will survive, and the Lord's hand will be seen yet in some miraculous demonstrations of power in the days that lie ahead. (President Harold B. Lee, Church News, October 27, 1973, page 3)A strong plea "not to preach pessimism about the country" and to return to the Lord for guidance and direction was made Oct. 26 by President Harold B. Lee.President Lee said the United States will stand despite whatever trials and crisis it may have to pass through. He stressed emphatically that the nation will never fail.Men may fail in this country. Earthquakes may come; seas may heave themselves beyond their bounds; there may be great drought and disaster and hardship, but this nation, founded as it was on a foundation of principle laid down by men whom God raised up, will never fail....we should be providing optimistic support of the nation. (President Harold B. Lee, Church News, November 3, 1973, pages 3 & 7)Ezra Taft Benson...says America will endure despite an increasing threat from communism, socialism and big government.This nation will endure...I believe this nation is something special. This nation has a spiritual foundation. And I think it was intended that this great nation be a beacon to liberty-loving people everywhere. Certainly it's a land choice above all other lands, the most productive in the world. And of course it has demonstrated the productivity and the power of the free enterprise system. (The Idaho Statesman, Boise, February 22, 1974, page 6-B)President Benson also stated...despite the challenges ahead, "this nation will endure. I expect to see the stars and stripes fluttering on the breeze when the Savior comes." (Church News, July 14, 1979, page 5)America will be a blessed land unto the righteous forever and is the base from which God will continue to direct the worldwide latter-day operations of His kingdom. (See 2 Ne. 1: 7) (Ezra Taft Benson, "I Testify," Ensign, Nov. 1988, page 86)Be still, and know that I am God.. (Psalms 46: 10) (ie, Relax, I'm in charge.)...let your hearts be comforted concerning Zion; for all flesh is in mine hands; be still and know that I am God. (D&C 101: 16)

Tim Malone
Tim Malone

Hi Jeremy,Thanks for the link to your essay. I read it and the comments with interest. I agree that we will not be the only people who will uphold and cherish what is found in the Constitution of the United States. We will indeed be joined by thousands, and millions of people who love the rule of law as defined in the constitution.See, I'm not sure if anyone else has caught the vision of how this is going to happen. And take this for what it's worth - my own personal interpretation of future events as prophesied by ancient and modern prophets. We've simply got to put the two events together - the collapse of the government and civil war.With the collapse of the Federal government, it will be the states that will have to pick up the pieces. Some will be successful, some will not. From what I understand, the most successful will be the Elders of Israel, who will uphold the principles of the Constitution in forming their regional government somewhere - and some have speculated Utah.Since it will be state against state and city against city, those who don't want to fight will, of necessity, have to flee to Zion where the principles of the government as laid down by our founding fathers, will be upheld. The world will not go up to war against Zion in those days because the Lord will cause the people of Zion to appear very terrible to them. That picture is a mixture of scriptures and quotes.So you've really got to ask yourself - do these statements by the early Brethren I've quoted still apply or is all trumped by whatever the current prophet says? And since President Monson doesn't seem to be speaking on this subject, that, to me, means one of two things: 1) What the early Brethren says still stands or 2) It is not time to be concerned about this yet - The Lord will let us know when it is time through the current leaders just before it happens.What I am trying to say is that the constitution will be upheld by a local government, not by a national government. The United States will cease to exist and the new governments setup - be they regional, tribal or whatever - will have differing rules and laws. Only the government setup by the Elders of Israel will use the Constitution as the basis for the government that they setup.

Jeremy
Jeremy

Tim, although Brigham Young and John Taylor each said that it will be the Saints that will uphold the consitution, I feel it may not be realistic enough and potentially under-inclusive. I agree with Saint Patriot and submit that Elder Benson's statement may be more realistic:“I have faith that the Constitution will be saved as prophesied by Joseph Smith. It will be saved by the righteous citizens of this nation who love and cherish freedom. It will be saved by enlightened members of this Church—among others—men and women who understand and abide the principles of the Constitution.” (President Ezra Taft Benson, Ensign, Nov. 1987, p. 7) (emphasis added)There are too many non-LDS and freedom-loving individuals in this nation that will not sit idle while the country they love destroys itself from the inside out.I posted on a few of these comments about our Constitution here: http://theseerstone.blogspot.com/2008/11/our-constitution-may-be-threatened.html

chococatania
chococatania

I don't have anything important or intelligent to say. I just wanted to thank you for including a quote from Orson Pratt - it has my most favorite word in the world in it:mobocracy...wow. okay... sorry..the intelligence can now continue.

Tim Malone
Tim Malone

John,Thanks for visiting my blog and adding your comments to this essay. I appreciate the great detail you provided. That must have taken quite some time. I’m honored that you would share as much as you did. You obviously feel very strongly about this subject. However, based on your response, I suspect that some of my statements were misleading or were misconstrued. Perhaps I can clarify…The intent of my essay was to share the statements of the early Brethren regarding the collapse of the government of the United States, which will occur someday. Just as Velska commented, one day all world governments will collapse, including that of the United States. I am not saying it is imminent, or on the brink, but it will happen. We know that from the statements that I have shared in the essay.You went to a lot of trouble to debunk what Igor Panarin had to say about the collapse of America. I was only using his fifteen minutes of fame last year as a springboard to present similar statements that have been shared by prophets of God on the same subject. The world has paid a lot of attention to the words of someone who has been labeled a crackpot, but has largely ignored the words of our prophets.Throw out what Igor Panarin has said. I just thought it was quite the coincidence that what he has been saying coincides with what President Woodruff said, that the United would be broken into pieces. That scenario has indeed been foretold if you read the writings of the early Brethren on the subject. Orson Pratt was especially descriptive – so much so that I can see it in my mind’s eye as I read it.Yes, we can safely ignore Igor Panarin, but don’t dismiss the words of the prophets I presented as obscure isolated statements and dire predictions. I am convinced that they saw our day and tried to describe it for us as best they knew how. What they shared was not dire speculation. That’s not what prophets do. Thus I ask again, do you think those statements were shared as prophets or just as men?John, I don’t think that the election of a Democrat to the White House to be a sign of impending doom. The economic distress that we are seeing now started long before President Obama was elected. I did not like how President Bush responded to the crisis by throwing money at the financial institutions and I do not believe that the current stimulus package will turn this situation around in the near future.The impending doom is not the result of who is sitting in the Oval Office, it is the result of years of economic foolishness, selfishness and yes, wickedness. Some say that President Obama is using the kind of language to push the stimulus package that goes overboard. Yesterday, he used the word catastrophe. I find it interesting that President Packer also used that word in several recent addresses.Is there an economic catastrophe coming? I believe there absolutely is and it is deadly serious. Was it caused by the election of President Obama? No, it was not. Will it result in the breakup of the United States and bring in the civil war that has long been prophesied? I hope not yet. There is still too much to do. The message of the restored gospel has not yet gone to China and to most of the Middle East.But don’t throw out the prophecies of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruf and Orson Pratt as isolated statements that can be safely ignored. These are not foolish old men who were speculating or speaking off the cuff. I believe they were speaking as prophets of God and we would do well to give heed to their words, even though most of them were shared over a century ago.And as Saint Patriot noted, I did not make mention of any of the words of President Benson on the subject, because they do indeed deserve their own essay, which I hope to compile at a future date. If you’re a follower of my blog, you know that I use this as a vehicle to motivate me to study the gospel. I just happen to be studying the words of the early prophets relating to the destiny of the United States.I stand by the title of my essay. The government of the United States will collapse someday. You can count on that. And yes, Kelly Miller, there is indeed a prophecy about the constitution hanging by a thread and the Elders of Israel being the ones to uphold it in the last days. A new government will be set up by the priesthood of God as prophesied, after the government of the United States collapses.

Jeremy
Jeremy

Brad, I'm afraid you have misread my views as those of "Sean Hannity, Sarah Palin, and Joe the Plumber." What I espouse is simply common sense thinking; something that I consistently see lacking in government as a whole today. Fiscal intervention (Obama's stimulus) with the express purpose of speeding up the normal regenerative process of capitalism is unnecessary and almost certainly harmful. It's a policy based on hubris and anxiety, rather than on history and good sense.Contrary to what you think, Obama's Spending Bill is very similar to FDR's New Deal, and quite possibly more socialist. Despite FDR's aggressive spending, unemployment reached 25 percent in 1933, fell only to 14 percent by 1937, and was back up to 19 percent in 1939. In the end, the New Deal did little or nothing to resuscitate the economy. Obama's New New Deal is not dissimilar, only possibly in the amounts proposed to be spent.To me there is no common sense in spending money when there isn't money to spend. In the last 4 months alone our government has guaranteed over $10 trillion. We do not have that money, nor can we print it without risking falling into the same predicament the Weimar Republic found itself in during the early 1900's.Lastly, however ignorant you may think I am, I fully stand by my comment about "poor" people (which I do not deem "derisive" in the least, for I happen to be one of them). Penalizing the rich who provide employment is counterintuitive to economic recovery, even in Obama's version of capitalism.

bradtraceykramer
bradtraceykramer

sigh...The power isn't in Obama's hands; it's in the hands of Congress. The commerce clause says nothing about the Executive branch. Obama is, orders of magnitude, far from being our country's most liberal president. He is even farther from being a socialist. Socialism entails the expropriation by the State of the economic means of production and a command economy, where the government artificially sets prices and controls production and distribution. If you think that's what's this stimulus package is promoting, you need open your eyes and ears to people other than Sean Hannity, Sarah Palin, and Joe the Plumber.If you randomly select 5 people -- Marxist professors of economics, sociology, or history, or Socialist Party candidates for any office in the country -- and send them an email asking their opinion of the stimulus package, the responses should be enough to disabuse you of the ridiculous "Obama is a socialist" rubbish that is interfering with your ability to engage in logical, rational introspection about public policy. FDR's policies -- not just New Deal policies but especially those from WWII -- were way, waaaaaaaay, more interventionist and statist than anything in this stimulus package or anything Obama has ever suggested. If you want to blame someone for the direction the country has gone in terms of increased government power at the federal level, blame Lincoln. The differences in the degree and forms of government intervention advocated by, say, Obama and McCain are comparatively trivial. Obama espouses a market capitalism with slightly more government regulation, oversite, and intervention than the market capitalism espoused by the Republican Party. "Poor people don't create jobs..." -- stuff like that just bespeaks profound ignorance. If the federal government is the only entity in the economy with capital liquidity (and it is right now), then it has several ways it can use its unique position to restore more widespread liquidity in capital markets, restore trust and confidence, expand consumer and business credit, etc. Among other things, it can put money in the hands of consumers (those you derisively call the poor) whose subsequent consumption fuels the economy from below. It's demand-side, rather than supply-side economics. That is only a small portion of the stimulus package."His Spendulus Package will create disincentives to entrepreneurship, capitalism, small business, and free enterprise. The fundamentals of the free enterprise system is that less government is the best government."You can continue to make unsupported claims and bandy about trite, reductionist, and positively stupid bumper-sticker economic maxims, but you can't expect not to occasionally get called to task for it.

Jared
Jared

In addition to all you've mentioned in this excellent post is that captivity by our enemies will also be part of the unbelievable devastation that will take place (Mosiah 11:21). However, there will be pockets where Zion like people will emerge, but not before great tribulation. Church members will fly the flag--the stars and strips, and may be the only ones able.The Book of Mormon speaks of those who possess this land will, when fully ripe, be swept off. Ether 2:9 6 Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken. 1 Nephi 14:6 - 7

Jeremy
Jeremy

"I'm honestly shocked that you made it through your first year of law school."Wow, Brad, how do you really feel? My mom died a while back, you want to take a jab at her also?I am not against taxation, for I believe taxes pay for the things which the Federal Government was intended for, namely, general protection of the country and to build roads... The rest of the programs and such were to be carried out by the States as required in the 10th Amendement. However, in my opinion, a terrible interpretation of the Commerce Clause stemming from the middle of the 20th century has placed more and more power in the hands of the Federal govt. Today, that power rests in Obama's hands. I agree that we have been living in a society that condones socialism to an extent ever since the days of FDR, when we started social security and then eventually left the gold standard. But not until recently has the government stepped forward and literally taken control of privately-held institutions "for the good of the country." I can only speak for myself, but “spreading the wealth” as Obama puts it, with the government in charge of the spreading, is outright socialism. I’m opposed to socialism in America. His Spendulus Package will create disincentives to entrepreneurship, capitalism, small business, and free enterprise. The fundamentals of the free enterprise system is that less government is the best government.In reality, none of us have ever been employed by a poor person. If the government penalizes the rich people who provide the jobs to the rest of us, they will go elsewhere. This is called trickle-down economics and it is how a capitalist society functions. But the government seems to point us in the opposite direction, where wealth is given to the lower classes and expected to create jobs and more wealth.

velska
velska

I think many people - I'm talking about patriotic Americans, especially - forget that all worldly governments will ultimately fail. Only then will the Lord's government take over. If not so, it would leave too many people with too much motive to resist.But I would call Igor Panarin (the nutty Russian professor) a gadfly more than a serious scientist with his predictions - he was just doing his bit of furthering the official Russian line of trying to get under Americans' skin.

Saint Patriot
Saint Patriot

I must admit I was surprise to not see anything of Pres. Benson's comments in your blog, no doubt because they are worthy of their own analysis. Thanks for bringing all of these great comments into a contemporary context.

john f.
john f.

More government = less freedom = abuse of power = the downfall of society or revolutionThis is a non sequitur, by the way (it doesn't follow that "more government" equals "less freedom"), even if it is a popular soundbite among a certain segment of the population. It follows more directly to say that more government can lead to greater inefficiencies, but even that assumes the premise to make the point.I'm not a fan of the expansion of government involvement in citizens' affairs except where it ameliorates unnecessary suffering, gives necessary aid, or performs enumerated and legitimate functions. Those are all matters of interpretation but differences of interpretation among people of different political beliefs, particularly when such differences are in good faith, do not result automatically in civil war.We need to step back and believe that our constitutional system is robust enough to support both a more actively involved government in policy questions and a more libertarian approach, depending on which party happens to be in office. The system is sound and can handle such different approaches within its framework.

Tim Malone
Tim Malone

Before I respond to John's excellent comments, I want to draw attention to the prophecies that were quoted. Let's throw Mr. Panarin out for the moment. What about what Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, Orson Pratt and John Taylor had to say?Were they speaking as men, offering their own opinions, or as prophets, speaking on behalf of the Lord? Does it matter that it has been well over a century since these statements were uttered? Will they be fulfilled some day?And guys, read my essay about Obama in which I endorsed the invitation of President Uchtdorf that we pray for him and his success. What is happening in America today cannot be laid at his feet. This economic situation has been coming on for a long time.

bradtraceykramer
bradtraceykramer

"Obama is implementing socialistic measures that will ultimately take away my freedom of choice. If I want to give my money to people of my own free will, I will do it. But forcing me to do so removes my agency; something akin to the Adversary in the premortal council."This is the tiredest, most intellectualy indefensible argument that LDS hyperconservatives can make. For one thing, those of the founders who wanted a new constitution did so precisely because they wanted a larger, stronger, more robust federal government that had the power to tax. Your line of "reasoning" here is a far greater indictment of the policies of President's Eisenhower or Lincoln than it is of Obama. Democratically elected republican government taxes the citizenry = the state forcing us to give our money = socialism = the Plan of the Adversary -- I'm honestly shocked that you made it through your first year of law school.

Jeremy
Jeremy

Interesting comments, John. I agree with you on many fronts, but take issue with others.In particular, no one is saying that having a "democrat" for a President is bad; I would gladly have Hillary today. What people are incensed about is that Obama is implementing socialistic measures that will ultimately take away my freedom of choice. If I want to give my money to people of my own free will, I will do it. But forcing me to do so removes my agency; something akin to the Adversary in the premortal council.Ever heard of the Depression of 1920? Likely not, and the reason is because Congress didn't try to get us out of it. If you actually look at employment numbers, it was far worse than the Depression of 1929 which everybody has heard of. What did we have in 1920? A fiscal stimulus? To the contrary, the government drastically cut the budget, and the Fed wasn't involved at all. So we actually had a negative stimulus. The economy caved and naturally reset itself within one year with an economy much more robust than before. We did the polar opposite in 1929 which UCLA professors now tell us unnecessarily extended the 1929 Depression for several years. There is a lesson here.Every business in America is laying people off. Everybody is reevaluating. The government, however, is expanding and building new offices and building new ships and everything else and I'm thinking to myself, "Wait a minute. Why do the economics of my level not somehow magically work at the government level." What makes us think that it's different in the White House than it is in our house?I also do not believe that America will collapse. This is just another economic cycle that, if Obama has his way, will be extended over a period of a decade or more.

john f.
john f.

Scott, just to be clear, in case my comment wasn't, I do not think it is realistic to think that the United States is about to collapse because a democrat has been elected, or for any other reason at this point. Civil war also seems very unlikely.Also, I think that if the United States did collapse, the situation would not even closely resemble the Russian professor's bizarre predictions.

Scott
Scott

John,I agree with you that the US falling into pieces with differing controlling interests is out there.However, more government control over the economy means less freedom. Freedom is a central tenant of this land, from God. Less freedom leads to the downfall of the constitution, as power is consolidated. A great example that happened last week was Obama's executive order putting a cap on executive salaries. The government suddenly had this right because it owns a part of these companies.More government = less freedom = abuse of power = the downfall of society or revolution

john f.
john f.

Strange -- that last comment by "abev" was by me, john f. Not sure what happened.

abev
abev

I am not the first to point out the similarities to the collapse of the Soviet Union with what is happening in the United States right now. The United States government is moving into a very similar position of becoming the owner of our highest financial institutions, subsidizing many of the money-losing enterprises. This draws us closer to socialism and away from a free market.Tim, it doesn't take much historical knowledge to recognize that the situation and posture of the Soviet Union in 1991 does not in any way resemble that of the United States now, or ever. The policies of American democrats do not resemble, by any stretch of the imagination, those of Soviet communists.The Russian professor's predictions are far-fetched. For one thing, the republics that emerged from what had been the Soviet Union didn't immediately join their neighbor China or the United States across the Pacific Ocean. Why would a portion of the United States join China should the United States collapse? Much of the portion that would allegedly join China or come under Chinese control is actually a much better fit for Mexico (California, Arizona, Nevada, Utah). The inclusion of North and South Carolina in the states likely to join the European Union is equally obtuse, as is the idea that those states would join a political body across the Atlantic Ocean should the United States collapse.I think it is extremely far-fetched to think that the United States is on the brink of collapse. Frankly, it makes me sad to see that some Mormons are interpreting the election of a Democrat to be a sign of impending doom. This is silly; please snap out of it for all of our sakes as fellow Latter-day Saints. This kind of dire speculation is unnecessary and unwise. (And, as you mentioned, there has been nary a hint of such a tone from the First Presidency or the Twelve Apostles, or other general leadership.)Just for the fun of speculation, however, if the United States really were on the brink of collapse, please bear a few things in mind. First, even separated off from the rest of the United States, California all by itself has the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world. That is, pretend that California right now is an independent country -- its GDP is bigger than most other independent countries in the world. I don't think that it would become a vassal of China or any other country if it were separated from the United States due to a collapse of the United States. A more likely scenario is that it would become its own country, commanding the same economic prowess and political influence enjoyed by England, Germany, France, Japan, and others. It is possible that some of the states in the Russian professor's map would become part of this larger California Republic. If it were to become a province of a foreign country, it would be Mexico and not China.Second, the same is true of Texas and the states surrounding it. Both politically and economically, Texas can stand easily on its own as an independent country and would not need to become a province of a developing country. Since Texas is much more developed and has a much stronger economy than Mexico, why would it align with Mexico? Is it the number of hispanics that live there that make this seem likely? If so, I submit that latent racism underlies such a prediction because there is no rational basis for thinking that Texas and several other US states would become a province of Mexico in the event of a collapse of the United States. Third, the same can be said of the mid-Atlantic states and New England. Culturally, economically, and politically this region would simply stand as its own independent nation. Collectively, those states far outshadow any single nation in the European Union. Why would that region join the European Union? It just doesn't make any sense. You might not realize it but there is still a lot of difference between "liberal" American politicians and "socialist" European politicians (I'm taking the liberty of assuming that you are presuming Europe to be socially liberal/socialist and that is why you seem to think that this alignment of New England with the European Union would make any sense.)The only possibly realistic prediction concerns the states belonging to the upper midwest. It is plausible they would join with Canada if the United States should collapse.Finally, why would Canada and Mexico be intact in the event of a collapse of the United States? Mexico in particular has a much weaker economy and political system than the United States, even in the current economically challenging environment. Remember that each state in the United States has a fully functioning, highly robust republican political system in place already. In the event of a "collapse" of the national government, I simply see each state picking up any slack in governance that would result. Perhaps a couple of states would join together in that situation so that three or four larger, new independent countries maintaining the cultural regional status quo as in the current America would emerge, roughly along the lines I have noted above. But with 50 exemplary state constitutions intact and fully functioning, including entire fully developed political infrastructures in each state, each with substantial governing history, laws, codes, statutes, and regulations, there will be no lack of stable government in place should the federal government collapse. Any single state of the United States has a political system and rule-of-law infrastructure (including fully developed bodies of common-law or civil law case law and rules/procedures that guarantee the rule of law) that rivals any independent country in the world.I would say that the Russian professor's predictions reveal that he does not know much about America, its peoples, or its Constitution/political systems, although he might think he does.I do not think that the United States will collapse. President Benson (before he was prophet) was very eager to raise a voice of warning against communism but he still maintained that the stars and stripes would be waiving at the Second Coming (as prophet). The United States at the present moment is literally a world away from anything remotely resembling communism or even socialism, despite what a fringe among Mormons and Evangelical creedalists might be saying. And although anything is possible and we all need to prepare our food storage and put our financial houses in order, such dire predictions do not seem realistic, reasonable, nor required by the isolated statements from past prophets that you have presented here. They also seem to rest on an extremely negative and unChristlike interpretation of political opponents' motives. I think that any honest person needs to step back and admit that, whichever side of the political aisle you are on, those on the other side also genuinely want what is best for America and, for the most part, work tirelessly to achieve it.The United States did not collapse during the Great Depression. Despite the current recession, we are nowhere near the situation of the Great Depression. Barack Obama is nothing close to FDR in terms of socialist/absolutist policies -- and those policies of FDR, although perhaps controversial to political opponents then and now, did not ruin the country or cause its collapse. Barack Obama's policies also will not cause the country to collapse, even if many Mormons think he is too liberal on social policy to be sanctioned by God. (Why GWB gets a free pass is unclear -- although GWB had solid Evangelical creedalist credentials as a free-church Methodist, his policies were far more absolutist, extended the executive's power far more than the policies of his predecessors, and severally restricted transparency in government -- are these not the very issues that would erode a healthy democratically elected government that needs to be accountable to the people?)Let's support and pray for the president, follow the prophets in preparing our food storage and expressing Christlike love to all of our neighbors, whether black or white, gay or straight, etc., and let's put this type of dire speculation behind us.

scottslant
scottslant

One of the more interesting aspects of Obama's spending bill, pushing us further into Socialism, leading to the eventual collapse of the government (or the constitution hanging by a thread), is that a member of the church is one of the leaders of this sham, designed to take more freedom away from Americans. I do not understand how Harry Reid can reconcile this.What this situation reminds me of is Alma 51. But rather than the king-men openly stating they were trying to put a king in place, the modern-day king-men used the democratic process to have their emperor elected who keep signing executive orders to grab more power.These certainly are perilous times.

TRESTIN MEACHAM
TRESTIN MEACHAM

If history is a guild then our republic will change into something else. The executive branch is moving closer and closer to being imperial. It is very similar to ancient Rome.I do not think collapse will happen in the next two years, but it may happen in my lifetime.

Anthony E. Larson
Anthony E. Larson

Tim,Excellent review of coming events seen through the eyes of modern prophets and apostles. Their vision of our future has never been to optimistic. Yet, so many modern Saints seem bent on portraying our future as an ascent from one level of excellence to another. This dycotomy is quite puzzling to me.More disturbing still is that when one adds the overlay provided by the view that Nephite history is a blueprint for our own, we see ourselves inexorably drawn down the same path they took. From terrorism, to economic collapse, to anarchy just prior to a massive natural disaster and the Savior's first coming, we are following the outline provided by Helaman and 3 Nephi.So, not only do we have the dire warnings of early church leaders, we get the same message for our time from Nephite history. That's a double whammy.Doom and gloom? I guess so. Not my favorite subject, but I will faithfully follow the evidence every time.Thanks for your capable exposition of this timely matter.

kelly miller
kelly miller

Isn't there something about the government will hang by a thread and that some church members will help out to set up a government to prepare for the second coming. I like to think about that...I like to think it is a time to step up and be what all the prophets saw- our time- ministering to the people to prepare for the coming of the Lord to rule and reign. We can be valient and courageous for Moroni who walked this continent alone and anticipated our day when temples would dot the land.

Trackbacks

  1. […] And the stars shall fall from heaven 43. Miracles and angels – a car wreck in Oklahoma 44. The government of the United States will collapse 45. Just where exactly are the lost ten tribes? 46. Mormon Church is not the fastest growing 47. […]

  2. […] written previously about this subject and got a lot of comments. I feel even stronger about this now. Wilford Woodruff said, “The […]

  3. […] upheaval, economic collapse, government failure, breakdown of the communication and transportation infrastructure and all kinds of other events we […]