Visions of Glory and the Last Days
I had not intended to write this review, but could not resist because the impression to share was so strong. I had intended to review chapter three of Passing the Heavenly Gift, but that can wait. I finished Proof of Heaven a week ago and did not feel the desire to review it as I do with this book. Proof of Heaven can stand on its own, already reviewed by many people. Visions of Glory has also been reviewed in several places, but the negative reviews are too dismissive for me.
I’m not going to say my review is negative, and I am going to recommend you read it, but I’m going to offer a few words of warning. There’s just something strange about this book that I can’t put my finger on at the moment. Maybe by the time I finish the review it will be clearer. The negative reviews on Amazon and elsewhere declare that Spencer was deceived. I’m not going to go that far. I believe Spencer was sincere when he described what he said he saw.
Visions of Glory combines two of my favorite topics – Near Death Experiences (NDEs) and the Last Days. Like several of the reviewers, I was fascinated with the first third of the book as he describes what he learned in his first two NDEs. I had little problem with what he offered and found myself nodding my head in agreement with some of his descriptions. The spirit burned in my heart as I recognized and understood that Spencer had shared some wonderful truths with us.
LDS Blogging on Last Days
I don’t doubt that Spencer did indeed experience the NDE’s as he described them. But I am just blown away by the detail in the last two thirds of the book in his third NDE. Cedar Fort’s wording on the cover that this is “one man’s astonishing account of the last days” causes me to immediately think, “Well, that’s just his interpretation.” And indeed, that’s the first warning I’m going to offer. These are just one man’s views of the Last Days. Mine are certainly different.
With John’s recent passing, Spencer, not his real name, has contributed more to John’s blog, now maintained by others. You can get a better feel for Spencer there by reading his contributions as he answers questions put to him by readers. It kind of reminds me of the early days of Denver’s blog in which he was much more interactive with his readers. Having a popular blog in the LDS community can be burdensome because so many readers are at different levels of understanding.
In any event, after reading Spencer’s book (it really is his even though John wrote it), you can interact directly with him on the Unblog. Although I found Spencer’s description of some of the events of the last days to be fascinating, my focus has been different. What I would like to ask about, he would not be able to answer. I am more interested in how the widespread destruction is caused and how to interpret the events from the Books of Revelation, Daniel, Joel and others.
Invasion of America
Those who have read essays from my early years of blogging know my interest in the books of Anthony Larson, known as the Prophecy Trilogy. In there, you’ll find a description of the pillar of fire, for example, that is radically different from what Spencer describes in his book. You’ll also find much more reference to the cosmological causes of the great destruction that is to take place before the coming of the Lord, which are barely mentioned in passing by Spencer.
Now, I hate to go “out there” but I want to make a point that there are multiple claims of how the great destruction is going to come about. Spencer notes that there are many nuclear explosions, most caused by internal radicals, not by the foreign invaders. I read that part to my wife. She said it sounds like someone watched “Jericho” or “Revolution” and had a bad dream. I must admit I have never read anyone else talking about floods in Salt Lake as one of the signs of the last days.
Are you familiar with Denise Mendenhall, daughter of LDS author Doug Mendenhall? She lives without a veil. She gave a talk at Confetti Books in Feb of 2012. I have a recording of the event. In it she relates how the Lord told her to share that he is going to cause a huge EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse) to hit the earth which will wipe out all technology based on the use of electricity and electronics, which is just about every means of modern communication and transportation.
Civilization will be Destroyed
Here’s my point. We’ve got Spencer claiming there will be a huge earthquake that will destroy most of the West Coast, cause massive flooding in Utah and precede an invasion by a large body of foreigners who take over the country. I’m not sure I understood the explanation for the flooding but I thought Spencer was describing the return of Lake Bonneville. He related that everything south of Point of the Mountain was under water as far as the eye could see. Strange.
So in addition to the huge earthquake, which is prophesied in the scriptures, without the floods, we’ve got Denise sharing that there will be a huge EMP and Anthony Larson pointing out that the great destruction of the last days will be caused by Earth’s close encounter with another celestial body. Spencer writes in his book that the earth passes by a huge planet on the journey back to God’s presence but that it has absolutely no effect on the earth or the inhabitants.
Although Spencer and Denise both claim that their visions of the end times are from the Lord, I’m going to go with what I have long held that the destruction of the last days, including the massive earthquakes, tidal waves and volcanic activity, are caused by the return of the Ten Tribes, who Joseph said were taken from the earth. This is in direct contradiction with what Spencer claims in his book – that they are living in deep caverns long hidden under the ice.
Celestial Mechanics and Time Travel
This is all conjecture and fun to think about but back to the point of this review. I offered one warning about Spencer’s book at the beginning. Here’s another: How is it possible that God could tell three different people, one of them a prophet, that the destruction of the last days will be caused by three different things: a massive earthquake, an EMP and a planet coming up alongside the earth? Could they all be correct? Well, actually I suppose they could be.
Imagine for a minute that you put aside what science teaches about celestial mechanics. Let’s assume that somehow a large planetary body could come close to the earth. Let’s further assume you accept the alternative theories of cosmology known as the Electric Universe in which plasma and electricity have greater influence than gravity, then yes, I suppose an EMP could accompany the earthquakes and other prophesied destructions found in the scriptures in rich abundance.
My apologies if my ramblings don’t make sense. I have tried to provide links to previous essays that might help if you haven’t been a regular reader of my blog. In Visions of Glory Spencer is clear that he has little to no background in technology. He marvels at the things he encounters as he becomes a translated being. I suppose his description of the portals will be the most difficult for scientifically minded people to accept. After all, he’s talking about time travel at that point.
All the Hot Mormon Topics
A few questions I am still pondering: Why such detail about the destruction in and around Salt Lake and little to none of the rest of the world? Why did they have to go to Cardston first before they went to Missouri? Why is the appearance of the Lord in the Conference Center to a select few not mentioned anywhere in prophesied events of the last days? Is the invasion of America by a foreign military a part of the events foretold in the scriptures? Why didn’t the plague kill more?
Is the book an exciting read? Yes, I couldn’t put it down. You’ll encounter plagues, earthquakes, floods, foreign invasion, changes in weather (kind of like Global Warming without the politics), changes in constellations as the earth travels through space, the return of the Ten Tribes, the long walk to Missouri, the building of the New Jerusalem, the gathering of the elect by the 144,000 and much more. But as some reviewers have written, it reads like a piece of good LDS fiction.
That is probably unkind. I don’t know Spencer. From everything I’ve read he is a kind soul. I would not have the courage to share what he has shared specifically because I know so many people would be inclined to mock. I have read the glowing reviews of others who said this is the most life-changing book they have ever read. Others have written that the Holy Ghost testified to them it is true. I’m not going to go that far. Perhaps I simply was not ready to receive it as such.
Inspiration for LDS Fiction
Some of my readers may know I am writing a trilogy of fiction based on the works of Immanuel Velikovsky and the Electric Universe cosmological views of Wal Thornhill and David Talbott. I have taken the opening chapter of Anthony Larson’s book, And the Moon Shall be Turned to Blood and have expanded it into what I hope will be an interesting and exciting story about how events could possibly happen in the very last days just prior to the return of the Lord.
My first book ends with the return of the broken off piece of earth containing the Ten Tribes. In fact, that’s the whole premise of the first book – that a planet will come close to the earth, cause huge widespread destruction and eventually position itself just above the magnetic North pole. In my second book I plan to write about life on Earth after the destruction of civilization and how we pick up the pieces. I confess I planned to write about the walk to Missouri to build up Zion.
As I read through the last two thirds of Spencer’s book I made mental notes about how I could expand this scene or that scene and incorporate it into my book. If I ever publish the first and find the anticipated satisfaction in its reception for which I hope, I’ll write about the return of the City of Enoch and again, the destructions that accompany yet another piece of Earth coming home. In my third book, I will write about what happens when the Lord does finally return.
One Man’s View
Most people don’t think about this stuff. None of us really has any material clue about how this is all going to come down, especially the timing and sequence of events. I like reading books like Visions of Glory because it gives me food for thought about how future events could possibly happen. Do I consider it a work of fiction? I’m not sure. Did the Holy Ghost reveal to me that what Spencer claimed he saw really will happen that way? I confess, no, I can’t say that.
I reiterate the point that Cedar Fort makes on the cover – this is one man’s view of things. He claims he was shown this in vision. At one point he made some reference that this may all be symbolic. At other times he was emphatic that he knew he was going to participate in these events at some future point in his life. I don’t know any translated beings but if you know Spencer in real life, maybe you should stick close to him to see if he is changed someday.
Please don’t be upset with my review if you feel I am mocking sacred things. I’m not. I have been a long-time reader of John’s blog. I have deep reverence and respect for those who have spiritual gifts that I don’t have. I suppose I am too caught up in making a living and relying on technology to do it. I spend every day working with routers, switches and wireless access points, servers, fiber-optic Internet connections and all kinds of things to keep the electrons flowing.
Technology for a Zion People
That’s why when I read in Spencer’s book how communications were cut off and yet there were some pockets of cities with electricity, I had to wonder why he claimed there would be no Internet. Wouldn’t that be one of the first things society would want restored once they had electricity? Even if it were just a small network in the local city not connected to the outside world, I am positive any civil authority would want that re-established as soon as possible.
He also mentions that the church had communications systems intact. OK, how did they do that? He never describes the fate of satellites, yet I believe in one case he noted the foreign invaders had some sort of GPS. The church relies heavily on the Internet and satellites to communicate with stakes all over the world. I realize that later on Spencer implies that they could keep in touch via their white seer stones but this is in the beginning, right after the big earthquake.
Spencer’s book is not about technology. It’s about becoming a Zion people. That’s why it fits in so well with John’s focus on the Unblog. It takes so many of the beliefs unique to Mormonism to levels that I confess I had never dreamed. Why would the Lord reveal such detail to Spencer that he hasn’t revealed to the prophets? Or if he has, why have they chosen not to discuss it, share it and teach us about it? Spencer doesn’t claim to be a prophet, but he sure shares amazing detail.
Fiction based on Dreams?
Final warning: John relates that as Spencer shared his visions he was impressed to tell Spencer about similar visions from other members of the church in our early history. Spencer claims he had never heard of them. Yet as I read Spencer’s visions I immediately called them to mind. Am I unique in that I knew of these things when a man with three advanced degrees had never heard of them? One could make an argument that the book was written from these previous visions.
The other visions and dreams are included in the appendix. The whole idea of going to Cardston first is based on a letter from Sols Caurdisto who toured the temple before it opened in 1921. The destruction of the cities of the East Coast that Spencer related the Angel showed him could have come directly from John Taylor’s 1877 dream, also included in the appendix. The 1884 dream of the plagues and Charles Evans dream of schools in New Jerusalem appear in Spencer’s narrative.
My conclusion: This is a fantastic book, a very enjoyable read. I recommend you read it. Don’t let my worldly skepticism deter you from gleaning wonderful truths shared about how the spirit world around us operates. But when it comes to how the events of the last days are going to go down, make sure you compare what you discover with what you already know from scripture. Then ask yourself as I did, “Has the Lord ever revealed such specific detail to anyone else?”
Note: Since I mentioned my book, you may be interested in reading a few chapters. It is tentatively entitled “Red Sky.”
Here’s a link to an audio interview with John and Spencer discussing the book:
http://unblogmysoul.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/02-10-spencer.mp3
tmalonemcse
January 13, 2013 at 3:13 pm
This is an excellent review. Thank you for sharing your opinions.
Toni
January 14, 2013 at 7:02 pm
I am only 100 pages into the book so far. It is a great read. I have to say, from your review, that from what I’ve read so far, we need to be careful to not read into or interpret anything that he was shown. In fact, several times already in the book, he was warned to take the information for what it was and not to try to put interpretation on it. One of these warnings came from his “Apostle friend” that he refers to many times in the book. That same advice should be the same for us. We shouldn’t try to pick apart his visions/dreams, rather we should take what he experienced and try to learn what it may mean for us. Everybody that has had last days visions all get them and relate them from their own unique filter and perspective.
Paul
January 15, 2013 at 1:34 pm
Wish there was a “like” button for comments. You’re right on Paul. It is interesting to compare what others report they have seen. Wish there was a central source compiled but I suppose it would be extensive and difficult to categorize: scripture accounts, prophetic visions, dreams of Apostles or General Authorities, dreams and visions of other priesthood leaders (Stake Presidents, etc), then dreams and visions of regular members like you and me. I have had several online friends send me their dreams about the last days, some of them very specific, including one that I intend to use in my book (with their permission).
tmalonemcse
January 15, 2013 at 1:49 pm
Yes, there are many. My in-laws just went to a fireside last Friday night where Denise Mendenhall and Kitten (a friend of the Mendenhall family) related some of their experiences (without veil) as well. They were told to share and so they did. We see so much more of this as we get close to the end times.
Paul
January 15, 2013 at 3:23 pm
I have felt not to share my visionary experiences because of the potential (very real) to cause confusion amongst the Saints and to damage the church’ work. I have no call to do other than bear testimony of the Restoration and Jesus Christ, and I believe that my visionary experiences have deepened the sincerity and converting power of my testimony. I speak with greater assurance than I had before because of what I know and the Spirit seems to add His assurance more readily.
But do I know all? Do I know as much as The Lord knows? Can I say that what I know is all there is to know or even enough to prepare me? No way.
I have seen from where I stood at the time. There is much more that I could have seen which was kept from me because I wasn’t prepared enough and because I couldn’t bring myself to ask the right questions. Other things were kept from me for good reasons which were told and made clear to me. I’m no Nephi, but in some respects I understand him quite well..
Signs follow faith and are for the benefit of our testimonies. Detail aside, personal revelation has strengthened my testimony and my ability to share it.
Let’s not err on the side of hubris in these matters.
mikeb
May 17, 2013 at 4:02 am
Tim-thanks for excellent review of this popular book. I haven’t read it yet. It is on my list.
I’ve been reading two books: The God Who Weeps by Terryl and FionaGivens and My Walk thru Heaven by Kim Rives.
You mentioned you enjoy NDE books. My Walk thru Heaven tells about Kim’s struggle with cancer. She dies and goes into the spirit world and meets many important people. She is LDS and she provides a detailed account of seeing the Savior and being taught by Him.
I’ll make this short so I don’t detract from your review.
Thanks again!
Jared
January 16, 2013 at 7:49 pm
Awesome. Thanks Jared. I have Terryl’s book, By the Hand of Mormon. I’ve heard good things about The God Who Weeps. I hadn’t heard of My Walk Through Heaven. Thanks for the recommendation.
tmalonemcse
January 16, 2013 at 8:21 pm
Thanks for your review. Like you, I found the further I read the more fictional it felt. However, there are some things that made perfect sense. You mentioned the flooding. Geologists have warned that with the known faults and the effects of liquefaction, parts of the Wasatch could end up under 12 feet of water. The fountains of water are also very realistic. This actually occurred in the New Madrid Missouri earthquake of 1811. Liquefaction caused water and sand to gush out of holes in the ground, resulting in pockets of sand in the middle of farmlands today.
When you consider the path City Creek takes, coming out of the mountains and then becoming constrained where it’s routed under the city, what Spencer described is almost inevitable.
The water under the creek could possibly explain the liquefying of those mountains above the city and their collapse onto the houses on the bench.
As far as the sinking south of the point of the mountain goes: we’ve been pumping water out of our aquifers for decades. Who knows what will happen when the ground shakes?
Spencer talks about the collapse of the the dollar and our banks, but it’s not really clear where it comes on the time line. It would make more sense for this to happen before the earthquake.
I don’t recall the EMP part in the book, but old Sol is going to eventually hiccup like he did when he set the telegraph lines alight in the 1800s. That kind of solar ejection would fry most of the electrical grid. There would still be back up generators, but most of our electronics will also be fried.
All these things fit expected effects. Spencer said he told at least one of the Apostles what he saw, so . . . who knows? We shouldn’t try to limit what the Lord can do.
Ruth
January 17, 2013 at 8:18 pm
Great comments Ruth. Thanks for adding to the dialog. For clarification, the EMP scenario is not from Spencer’s book. It is from a recorded talk from Denise Mendenhall, sharing what she said the Lord asked her to share about what is going to happen in the last days. I happen to agree with her. Unusual events on the sun play a large role in the storyline of my book. I also agree with your conjecture about the collapse of the economy coming before the earthquake. While I hope all this doesn’t happen in my lifetime (I’m 55), I get the impression that more and more people have serious concerns about maintaining our current economy with the amount of national debt we continue to build. Thanks again for sharing your comments about the effects of the earthquake on the Wasatch Front. I also thought about City Creek as I was reading that section.
tmalonemcse
January 17, 2013 at 8:58 pm
Both Gail Smith and Sarah Menet describe being shown through near death experiences Salt Lake Valley full of water at some future day. http://www.scribd.com/doc/48677447/Gayle-s-Story-One-Woman-s-Visions-of-the-End-of-Days-in-America http://www.scribd.com/doc/49269771/Sarah-Menet-s-Vision-of-the-Last-Days The two were intrigued to learn that they’d had their separate experiences long before they met each other and compared notes. While their accounts contain a number of significant differences they seem consistent with Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17: “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:” It’s a pity to think of the local source for great women’s handbags and fine wines–the City Creek Mall–someday accessible only to scuba divers.
Thanks for sharing your synopsis of Anthony Larson’s work, Tim. I share your enthsiam for his insigthts. When you view future earth changes being a repeat of past earth changes and for the same reason of another planet coming close to the earth you almost expect anything to happen. I like that Larson’s insights lead us to conclude that this is the power of God at work instead of it being evidence that he has forgotten us somewhere along the line.
Kevin
March 12, 2013 at 7:27 am
Hey Kevin,
About the 12 feet of water: I didn’t mean to imply that Downtown Salt Lake would STAY under water. Liquefaction temporarily liquefies sediments. When the shaking stops the water drains away. What “Spencer” describes is consistent with that. The wine bottles would be only shards of glass and the handbags pretty foul, though. No great loss in my opinion.
About God forgetting us: Never. If you’ll recall, the deal was, when we came to earth, we’d all have as much rope as we want; to do with as we want. Our decision. Earth wouldn’t be much of a learning experience if we didn’t have that.
The natural consequences of those choices are also here. We can choose to study the scriptures, and learn to listen to the “still small voice” of the Holy Spirit. Or we can ignore it. Unfortunately, many do. That’s why so many lives today, are like a stupid soap opera or Jerry Springer: The natural consequences of bad choices—ours or somebody else’s.
God’s always there, though, waiting to help us the second we turn to Him and ask. We have to ask Him, though. It’s our decision. Our choice.
Ruth
March 12, 2013 at 11:48 am
Thoughts on revelation. (And please forgive me if I’m repeating someone else–I can’t read through it all right now.) I believe that the Lord gives us what we need, when we need it. It makes complete sense to me that different people would have different visions of the last days, as the things that were revealed to each individual could have been selected so that that individual learned what God needed him/her to learn.
Another thought: it seems to me that God will give revelation that is symbolic in nature, not detailed-nuts-and-bolts-take-it-apart-and-put-it-back-together-exactly-applicable-to-our-understanding-of-the-world kind of stuff. I know, in my own life, that when I’ve been most open to revelation and close to the Lord, the most powerful communications I’ve had through the Spirit were absolutely symbolic. To describe them sounds like something out of the Old Testament–but they are experiences that have changed my life, beautifully and irrevocably, with the knowledge they imparted. So, some of the visions & revelations about the last days could be symbolic in nature. Maybe the vision of the Ten Tribes in a cave under the ice is symbolic in a way we can only understand after they come back and tell us where they’ve been.
And thanks for blogging. I’ve just found Latter Day Commentary, and I look forward to reading more in the future.
Annalea
January 25, 2013 at 6:31 pm
Great thoughts Annalea. Thanks for sharing. I agree that when God communicates with man, it is often symbolic, especially in dreams. My own dreams that I felt were inspired from God follow that pattern. I took a quick peek at your blog. Good stuff. Nice to make your acquaintance.
tmalonemcse
January 25, 2013 at 8:54 pm
Thanks, Tim. It’s mutual.
Annalea
January 26, 2013 at 10:38 am
Thank you for this review. I just ordered the book yesterday after having bumped into John Pontius’ blog and there reading about “Spencer’s” NDE.
Spencer’s version of what he saw occur along the Wasatch front lines up with a couple other LDS near-death-experiencers.
Elaine Durham (“I Stand All Amazed – Love and Healing From Higher Realms” 1998) writes:
“North America will be completely divided by a large body of water. A large part of both eastern and western shorelines will be lost. Icebergs and polar icecaps will melt significantly. America will be ravaged by earthquakes, hurricanes, fierce storms, massive fires burning huge areas of the country, explosions in some areas and the western coastline will change causing California, Oregon and Washington to become submerged. Much of the eastern coastline will be gone, though not as bad as the western. The southern half of Florida will be under water. The oceans of the entire world will rise significantly.
The seat of power will move away from Washington, D.C. because there will be so much turmoil and warfare on the eastern side of America. America will come to the very edge of destruction because Americans have chosen to seek worldly things rather than loving or serving others, and because they refused to care for their precious natural resources, and because of their greed and selfishness. The U.S. government will lose most of its power and no longer govern completely, and lawlessness will reign on the eastern side of America as well as tremendous anarchy and crime. There will be less turmoil on the western side of America and even a certain amount of prosperity. A new seat of power will rise near present-day Kansas City. From this location, a true spiritual force will become the governing power over the whole land – a power such that emanates from Christ.
Native Americans will be partially responsible for the peacefulness that will exist in western America. Their knowledge of how to live from the land, or how to be in harmony with it, will bring forth an abundance. Their spiritual knowledge will be taught to the people and everyone will start to learn to live in harmony with each other. Prosperity will come by becoming harmonious with nature or the natural elements upon which they depend.”
LDS convert Sarah LaNelle Menet writing in her book “There Is No Death” saw tall buildings in New York City fall, then described how she saw commerce cease. She saw Israel attacked and a world war begin. She saw biological warfare occurring in four cities in the western USA, among them Salt Lake City and Las Vegas. She saw North America invaded and Chinese paratroopers dropping in all across the western USA. She saw a huge earthquake in the middle of the United States and saw the nation split into two land masses. She specifically saw the Wasatch front being inundated with water, from Salt Lake City south all the way to almost Cedar City.
I have also heard other LDS suggest that the City of Enoch was located in what is today the Gulf of Mexico, and that when it returns, that body of water is displaced up into the Mississippi River, which greatly exceeds its bounds and create the gulf that separates the two land masses of America. This water sweeps across the state of Missouri, flooding and devastating it; which would bring to pass Brigham Young’s prophesy, quoted by Heber C. Kimball, that Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that, “There will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail,” when the Saints return there.
Thanks for blogging. I look forward to reading more from you.
lasvegaspamela
January 26, 2013 at 1:53 am
Many of these things were prophesied by Old Testament prophets, Book of Mormon prophets, George Washington, Joseph Smith, Orson Pratt and many others. Historical prophetic writings have provided much fodder for Spencer.
That doesn’t mean what he has said is not true, but by my observation current prophets bear testimony of the truthfulness of what previous prophets have said. They don’t blow their own bugle for money’s sake, which may be happening endemically and abundantly here.
Good to be curious, but not good to presume too much because God has blessed us with a gift. It is still He who is God and us that are His children learning line upon line.
I get the impression that these are but the early lessons which, if learned well and if we act judiciously with the truths we are given, will set us up for future lessons. But, like Joseph, God has to find out first whether He can trust us not to squander His gifts for personal gain before He gives us more.
For some, these first lessons will not be followed quickly by others.
mikeb
May 17, 2013 at 4:21 am
Hey uncle Tim this is Jon who do you think his apostle friend was? I’m thinking James E Faust or Joseph B Wirthlin Or David B Haight And it sounds like he was good friends with the prophet Howard W hunter. Do you think he was a general authority? How long have you been writing on this site?
Jon
January 29, 2013 at 10:24 pm
Just reading the book tonight. I believe Spencer’s apostle friend was Neal Maxwell or David B. Haight, both of whom died in July of 2004, which date jibes with his stated timeline.
lasvegaspamela
January 29, 2013 at 11:43 pm
Oh, hi Jon. Glad you found my blog. Been writing here for a little over five years. My opinion on Spencer’s apostle friend is David B. Haight. No, I don’t think Spencer was a general authority. He worked up at the U as a child and family counselor. He also worked for LDS Social Services and maybe still does.
tmalonemcse
January 31, 2013 at 1:51 pm
Hi, I believe that Spencer’s friend was Neal A Maxwell. I believe this because of a statement that Spencer made in the book that “his friend” made. I was listening or reading a talk in which someone quoted Neal A Maxwell and it was almost verbatim what was quoted in Spencer’s book.
K-Jo
March 27, 2013 at 8:14 am
[...] Visions of Glory as told to John Pontius, Cedar Fort, 2012 – I reviewed this in great detail in a previous blog entry. I learned much from the first two NDEs he related. However, I was not quite ready for what he [...]
Near Death Experiences and Me « Latter-day Commentary
January 30, 2013 at 8:37 pm
The Lost Ten Tribes are not on a separate planet or celestial body. There is zero evidence for that, and nothing scriptural or what our prophets have said could remotely be interpreted as such. Please don’t turn your theory into fact.
Blake
February 2, 2013 at 3:00 pm
Hi Blake. Rather than pointing to several excellent arguments for the theory, including scriptures and quotes from modern prophets, the same story could be written using the City of Enoch as the inhabitants of the returning planet. The project goes on. Thanks for visiting and leaving a comment. Oh, what he heck. You can read what I wrote about this five years ago and join the discussion there: http://latterdaycommentary.com/2008/03/02/just-where-exactly-are-the-lost-ten-tribes/. There is more here: http://latterdaycommentary.com/2008/02/29/and-the-stars-shall-fall-from-heaven/ and from another site:
http://mormonmonsters.blogspot.com/2009/09/ten-tribes-live-on-another-planet.html
tmalonemcse
February 2, 2013 at 3:54 pm
Interesting stuff. A friend of Joseph Smith said that the prophet told him where the lost tribes were, describing it as a cauldron shaped depression in the earth at the pole, and that John the Revelator is with them. I found it in that old software that had all the scriptures and LDS works back in the 90s. Remember that? It was the first online version that came out, I think. Anyway there’s a great deal of evidence suggesting that there’s a major anomaly at the north pole. Satellites don’t fly directly over it. Planes avoid it. The military seems to be hiding something up there. I think there’s a hole up there shrouded in fog, and that’s what Admiral Byrd stumble onto during his expedition The Earth may be hollow. Granted my theory is as wild as yours, but I think Spencer’s on to something and wouldn’t dismiss his vision just because he doesn’t mention anything that supports World in Collision. I’ve always been a fan of Velikovsky and of the Wallac/Thornhill plasma theory. I just don’t think God needs to uplift the tribes to another planet (not that He couldn’t do it). There’s plenty of real estate inside the earth.
That said, I’d love to read your book when it comes out. I’ve started and stopped a novel so many times it hurts! So I can appreciate what you’re attempting. Good luck.
Blake
February 3, 2013 at 5:06 am
Except what Joseph F Smith said.
mikeb
May 17, 2013 at 4:24 am
Thanks for the great review and place to read wonderful comments, I’m really enjoying being here!
gale
February 18, 2013 at 7:26 pm
When you say “How is it possible that God could tell three different people, one of them a prophet, that the destruction of the last days will be caused by three different things …” Which one are you referring to as a prophet… Anthony Larson, Denise Mendenhall, or Spencer? Maybe I’m misreading something or missing a detail.
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Regarding these questions: “Why would the Lord reveal such detail to Spencer that he hasn’t revealed to the prophets? Or if he has, why have they chosen not to discuss it, share it and teach us about it?” … I wonder if the prophets/apostles know a lot more and experience a lot more than they are allowed to tell us. As I was pondering correlation the other day I thought that perhaps the Church can only govern such a large body of souls through correlation. And related to that is perhaps that the Lord expects us to accept correlation, yet individually transcend it. If correlation (even to the extent that the prophet’s words are mostly correlated) is truly Christ’s mandate and inspired for the current body of Saints, is it possible that things beyond correlation are meant to be spread through unofficial yet inspired sources? Do we not have the gift of the Holy Ghost (and subsequently gifts of the Spirit) to distinguish between such things so that we don’t have to rely solely on the prophet for every detail?
As one example of how the Church leadership may be constrained in the details they provide for us, McConkie stated on the 1978 priesthood revelation that they “felt something akin to what happened on the day of Pentecost and at the Kirtland Temple,” and although he mentions the “voice of God” and the “power of the Spirit,” there isn’t really a lot of detail provided compared to the events in the Kirtland Temple. His description actually feels very constrained, correlated, and could be read by most members as a spiritual experience not too different from the revelations common among members who are comfortable with the whisperings of the Spirt. Yet, I think if you read between the lines, he is hinting at much more happening.
Matthew
February 21, 2013 at 9:57 am
I just LOVE this book. FYI Ceder Fork has finally made it available on Kindle. My paper back is dog eared and underlined. Each time I reread it I’m finding things I didn’t see before, and it all makes better sense. Information about the book appeared here shortly after I made a specific prayer asking to know more about what’s coming. Both members & non-members seem to be picking up on a generalized feeling that something’s in the works
We all have access to the scriptures’ repeated warnings about wars, earthquakes, and plagues, etc, and that the earth will be changed. Spencer appears to have been given a window into a possible scenario that he may take part in. It doesn’t mean what he experienced will be experienced by other members—especially those outside the Wasatch front Salt Lake area. The liquefaction related flooding and geysers have already been predicted by geologists when the inevitable earthquake eventually strikes the Salt Lake area. We are geologically overdue for one.
Spencer gave a textbook description of small pox in his germ warfare section. Weaponized small pox has been around for decades in Russia, Europe & the U.S. Nothing new there, except after 9-11 my brother -in-law took part in a small pox project. He volunteered to be vaccinated and then he regularly donated blood from which they extracted antibodies. Injectable frozen antibodies could be life saving to key governmental individuals. However, in protracted multiple waves of the disease, as described by Spencer, these would eventually run out. Genetically modified strains of the disease could also render our country’s vaccination stores and antibodies worthless.
It’s important to remember the brethren receive revelation for the Church as a whole. They’ve already told us to store water & food, and stand ready to help those who need our help. The main thing I’ve taken from the book is the importance for each of us to prayerfully learn to turn to the Holy Spirit for not only end time things, but in our daily lives each day.
Ruth
February 21, 2013 at 3:25 pm
Great comments Ruth. Thanks for sharing. It adds a lot, especially the part about being prepared.
Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson p.265 has a quote that reads “For years we have been counseled to have on hand a year’s supply of food. Yet there are some today who will not start storing until the church comes out with a detailed monthly home storage program. Now, suppose that never happens. We still cannot say we have not been warned.
Should the Lord decide at this time to cleanse the church-and the need for that cleansing seems to be increasing-a famine in this land of one year’s duration could wipe out a large percentage of slothful members, including some ward and stake officers. Yet we cannot say we have not been warned. (God, Family, Country,p.383)
tmalonemcse
February 21, 2013 at 3:55 pm
Response to Matthew: The prophet is Joseph Smith. I think the Lord was very clear in the scriptures about how our world would be visited by terrible calamities. He has warned us over and over but so many just don’t get it or believe it.
Here are links to some previous essays, most written four or five years ago, in which I expound upon the idea that the destruction of the Last Days will be caused by the approach of a planet to the earth.
And the Moon Shall Turn to Blood
Just Where Exactly Are the Lost Ten Tribes
Forgotten Signs of the Last Days
It Came From Behind the Sun
The Day of the Lord Will Come Quickly
When Prophets Need to Know
The Electric Universe – Fact or Fiction
Armageddon on Earth and in Heaven
Prophets, Scholars and Burning Hail
I’ll respond to your other comments in a separate reply. Thanks for adding to the dialog, Matthew.
tmalonemcse
February 21, 2013 at 2:59 pm
Hi,
My name is Robert F. Kleiner, located in Calgary Alberta and LDS.
When I started out reading the book I was enthused, but after arriving at the middle, I knew it is all wishful thinking and money making from gullible Mormons.
Here is my reasoning:
1. Beautiful angel: No reason to float over a dead person horizontally. This is not God like.
2. God’s soft hair on his arm. Even if that is true, God would never allow this cheesy detail to distract from eternal truth.
3. The visitation at the house where the prophet prayed. He first climbed up the stairs, had to open the door and then on the way out walked through the door.
4. And many other inconsistencies.
Sincerely,
Robert F. Kleiner
(403) 536-1156
Robert F Kleiner
March 19, 2013 at 4:33 pm
1. I taught a very intelligent and very well known man on my mission that could not believe the BOM was true simply because he felt that God would never command anyone to kill another person (1 Nephi chapter 4 – Nephi killed Laban at the Lord’s command) he felt that this was “not god like”.
2. As far as “cheesy detail” goes: the detail was what Spencer picked up on from HIS PERSPECTIVE not from gods. And your statement “god would never allow…..” How would you (or anyone) even begin to know what god will and will not allow? And under what circumstances?
3. God did NOT wright this book and it was not translated by his power. He gave an experience to someone and they used their own judgement and perspective (right or wrong). Why is that concept so difficult for some people to understand?
If you read my patriarchal blessing you would not understand the depth of meanings the same way that I do. You may even call it “cheesy” and me “gullible” for believing it even though my experience while receiving it told me that it was absolutely 100% from my heavenly father.
Todd
April 3, 2013 at 1:24 pm
I appreciated the review about the book. I have read the book myself and having my own revelations about it, reading the book gave more insight to what I have seen. But my reason for replying is not what I found the book but on the comment done on the review here. I grew up in a country where there was a constant war and everytime there was an attack, the water and electricity will be cut off and they would be turn for an hour or so once a week but never in the same zone. Food will quickly spoil or wouldn’t be enough. And when you news came out that someone was giving out water, you don’t care if bullets are flying by your head, you run and pay for whatever water you can carry.
Yet when I read that internet should be priority to establish where little resources are found? I just find it naive if you think this to be a priority, for internet and anything electronic becomes the last thing in your mind. If you think electronic matters that much once you get a bit of electricity then your priorities are screwed up.
“That’s why when I read in Spencer’s book how communications were cut off and yet there were some pockets of cities with electricity, I had to wonder why he claimed there would be no Internet. Wouldn’t that be one of the first things society would want restored once they had electricity? Even if it were just a small network in the local city not connected to the outside world, I am positive any civil authority would want that re-established as soon as possible.”
Nina
April 26, 2013 at 6:51 am
Hi Nina,
Thank you for your comment. Your added information about conditions in war was insightful. I especially appreciated your comments about the loss of water and electricity being so critical. I agree with your point that for individual survival, obtaining water would be a highest priority. I do not wish to take anything away from your passionate defense of what is most important.
I confess I was thinking more from a city administrator’s point of view. I was not considering the Internet as a source of entertainment, but as a critical piece of infrastructure equally as important as electricity. The Internet was designed specifically with the effects of war in mind. The robust routing structure provides for a mesh environment where cities are interconnected with multiple other cities, be they large metropolitan areas or down to even the smallest of communities.
Almost every municipality I know of depends on the Internet for communications. The flow of email or other messages is now and would remain one of the highest priorities of any civic or government organization, right after water, food and electricity. Our government has numerous contingency plans for ensuring they can communicate, even in the event of an EMP. Facilities that are deep underground have been designed specifically to withstand nuclear blasts or EMPs.
The events that Spencer described as he flew across America support your observation. On page 116 we read, “All the utilities were in chaos. People tried to keep the necessities of life running, but they were sporadic and mostly offline. There were blackouts everywhere, some of them lasting many months. Almost all water was not fit to drink because of acts of war against this country. People suffered everywhere.” However, this was the initial scene at the beginning.
Remember, Spencer’s vision of the earthquake, the war and the associated destruction took place in the fall. Again we find support for your position on page 124, “…all communication was down…those…away on assignment were cut off by the collapse of communication worldwide.” He then describes his trek across the country on foot the next spring, where he describes finding some pockets of electricity. They visited some places “where basic utilities had been restored.”
“The smaller towns were succeeding more quickly at reestablishing law and order than the bigger cities (p 159). I interpret order to include communication facilities such as the Internet. On page 160, it is now the fall, nearly a year after the initial devastation when they passed into Montana where we read, “There was an economy of sorts working there, and some basic utilities had been restored.” He probably means electricity, water and sewer. Why not the Internet?
Most people don’t have a good understanding of what exactly the Internet is. Simply put, it is a collection of networks, interconnected through multiple points. If one city gets electricity going, I am certain those who run that city will want to be able to communicate. Thus, I made my point about getting their local network going as a high priority. This is long after electricity, water and food distribution are working. It simply makes sense to support law and order in a community.
When they arrived in Cardston, the entire “city was lit by electricity, with streetlights and lights in tents and trailers… There were hospitals, school, cafeterias, and every other needed service and facility.” They had done such a good job that he says he didn’t recall a single power flicker or failure. To me, that means communications – in other words, at least a metropolitan area network.
I apologize that my choice of wording caused you to feel that I was being naïve when it came to reestablishing the Internet. I assure you that would also be the furthest thing from my mind when I am thirsty or starving. Water and food come first, then safety in shelter. However, if I were in a position to help get communications going again, I would lend my skills and assist the local city and government officials in repairing the Internet. Communication is also critical to survival.
Remember, Spencer never claimed to have any technical expertise. He is a family counselor. He would not think about these things. This happens to be how I make my living and have spent my life – ensuring that the electrons flow. The Internet is what makes that happen on a large scale. Once some of the cities had their local networks going, they would want to connect to nearby cities and then finally across the country and around the world. I know I would want that.
But thanks again for reminding us all of our highest priorities in a disaster – insuring water, food and safety for our families. It’s so sad to realize so many will be killed and of those remaining, so many will die such horrible deaths because of the lawlessness and the terrible conditions in some parts of the world. It will be a terrible thing to witness and I for one, hope and pray that my mission on earth is completed before this comes to pass either as Spencer has described or in similar scenes witnessed by others in dream and vision.
tmalonemcse
April 26, 2013 at 2:45 pm
Regarding the internet; You are forgetting that the re-establishing of the internet would be the last thing the invading Eurasian/UN Powers-That- Be would want. A functioning internet would permit communications which would allow the spread of information about what their true goals were, and facilitate an organized resistance to them. The internet relies on remote servers, and cable & phone lines, as well as electricity, and is very vulnerable to both cyber attack and low tech attack.
What Spencer described sounds like a very well organized, and preplanned attack—not just taking advantage of a natural disaster. Military research is going on, both in the US & abroad, regarding the use of focused, powerful, ultra low frequency waves, that can create vibrations deep in the underlying rock strata. These subsonic vibrations can trigger earthquakes in areas where earthquake faults are already building up pressure to move.
As I recall, these invading troops were also pre-vaccinated and well prepared for the smallpox-like germ warfare, Spencer described. Smallpox can be easily weaponized for air dispersal from aircraft because it can survive for a very long time outside a human host. This method of dispersal would result in massive numbers of people getting deathly sick—all at the same time. The usual Center for Disease Control methods for managing a natural disease outbreak would be useless. The incubation period for smallpox is long (7 – 17 days) and its initial symptoms flu-like. This means NY, DC, and most of the Eastern seaboard would already be infected before anyone knew what was happening. There would be no time for vaccinations. Air dispersal would also contaminate rivers and lakes, and open municipal water supplies. This is consistent with what was described in the book.
Ruth
April 29, 2013 at 3:14 am
You are right about that Ruth – a full Internet experience would require remote servers, working long-distance phone / data lines, and of course electricity. I guess what I was feeling when I wrote my review that where some civilization has been reestablished, especially as Spencer described the state of Cardston, that local network facilities would be in place. Thus, my explanation of what the Internet really is – a collection of networks. Today we use remote servers for hosting but there’s nothing that prevents us from using local servers. So again, technologically speaking, setting up network communications is feasible & desirable.
However, and more importantly, you are also correct in that the new “powers that be” – the invading armies, would indeed be opposed to a re-establishment of communications by the conquered nation. It seems strange to write this, even to contemplate such a scenario, because it invokes feelings of disbelief. How could such a once-powerful nation be rendered so impotent by a smaller invading force? The resources of the U.S. must have been already decimated by political in-fighting and then by the targeted attacks of the weaponized germ warfare. Again, an awful thought to contemplate. How could we allow such a thing? I think the answer is obvious – and you and Spencer are right – our nation will become weak and vulnerable. Sad.
tmalonemcse
April 29, 2013 at 6:53 am
Unfortunately, our nation is already in much more dire straights than many understand. Spencer mentioned in passing that the dollar had collapsed before the earthquake struck. Our leaders and financiers are desperately trying to shore up the US dollar, which is loosing it’s privileged position as the world’s trading currency. Few understand the importance of maintaining this position, but in the last two weeks there has been a run on physical gold and silver around the world—at the same time our financial leaders are using naked shorts to plunge gold and silver futures contract prices, and ETF prices for paper precious metals.
Unfortunately, it isn’t working.
It’s only succeeded in making already jumpy investors flee paper “gold” and rush to buy real coins and bars. There are no more silver coins (1 oz. Canadian Maple Leaves & American Eagles) available in many parts of our country, and no gold coins available in some foreign countries. A week ago our local coin and bullion dealer in Salt Lake had to post a sign explaining that they couldn’t get any more silver coins, because everyone was sold out around the country.
Trust me, this is not good. This only happens when significant numbers of people are losing faith in the value of their fiat paper currency— in this case, the US Dollar.
So far the Fed has succeeded in keeping this out of the press, and they are working hard to contain the problem. If Spencer is right however, their best efforts will eventually fail.
Ruth
April 29, 2013 at 8:07 am
As one who has met Spencer and knows something of his character, let me simply add my first hand account that he is a humble, intelligent, and Christ-like man. When he speaks, he says the Savior’s name with incredible love and familiarity. May I encourage those reading this review to open their hearts to hear what The Lord would have them learn from Visions of Glory. Soft hearts will hear.
Kev
May 4, 2013 at 5:48 pm
Thank you Kev. I sincerely appreciate that someone has come forth to vouch for Spencer. As I read the book I also got a feel for the man, that he was sincere, humble and would not lie or tell stories to satisfy any pride or desire for recognition. I tried in my review to simply point out that his experiences in his dreams, visions and NDEs may have been symbolic for him and not necessarily reflect future events that will come to pass. But then, we should all ask the Lord for help in understanding what we must do to be prepared for events such as these, which the scriptures do prophesy will indeed come to pass, whether they happen exactly as Spencer has related or not. Thanks for visiting and leaving a comment.
tmalonemcse
May 4, 2013 at 6:20 pm
have you read the book ONE SECOND AFTER?
jake
May 9, 2013 at 7:51 pm
Hi Jake. That’s a good recommendation from the reviews I’ve read. Although I don’t read much fiction, I’ve ordered it and am going to be reading it. Thanks for adding to the conversation here. For those who haven’t read it, here’s the publisher’s blurb: “New York Times best selling author William R. Forstchen now brings us a story which can be all too terrifyingly real…a story in which one man struggles to save his family and his small North Carolina town after America loses a war, in one second, a war that will send America back to the Dark Ages…
A war based upon a weapon, an Electro Magnetic Pulse (EMP). A weapon that may already be in the hands of our enemies. Months before publication, One Second After has already been cited on the floor of Congress as a book all Americans should read, a book already being discussed in the corridors of the Pentagon as a truly realistic look at a weapon and its awesome power to destroy the entire United States, literally within one second. It is a weapon that the Wall Street Journal warns could shatter America. In the tradition of On the Beach, Fail Safe and Testament, this book, set in a typical American town, is a dire warning of what might be our future…and our end.”
Source: http://www.amazon.com/One-Second-After-William-Forstchen/dp/0765356864
tmalonemcse
May 9, 2013 at 8:02 pm