When Religion Comes Between Spouses


SnufferBooks

Picture of most of my Denver Snuffer book and CD collection (may be missing a few CDs).

Over the years, I’ve read with interest many stories of conflict between husbands and wives where one spouse was a believer in a religion and the other wasn’t. It always hurt my heart to read such stories. Some even made me cry to think of two people who loved each other enough to marry and start a family who are now quarreling over religious beliefs and commitments. This sort of story is more common than you may think, or perhaps those who experience are more prone to share.

Not Important to Their Marriage

Inevitably, my response was, and you’ll think this uncaring, “Well, you knew what you were getting into. Why did you marry him (or her) without working this out first?” I know many people who either a) don’t care what the other spouse does when it comes to religion or b) don’t care what religious beliefs the children are exposed to later on. In a sense, they have it easy. They simply don’t care and religion is not an issue. It’s not important to either one of them. In other words, neither holds strong religious beliefs, so it doesn’t matter or bother either of them.

Unequally Yoked Is A Real Issue

What if one or the other spouse does care deeply about their religious beliefs? Worse, what if for the most part, the couples agree on just about everything else? They have so much in common when it comes to what they believe about God, religion, doctrine, church history, family, prayer, worship, discipline, service and all kinds of other things that matter in raising a family. I’ll bet you can see how that could raise some concern, even be the source of some heated arguments.

Sudden Interest in What the Other is Reading

Let me give you a modern day example. A loving couple, married more than thirty years, never really interested in what kind of books the other was reading before, discovers their spouse is now reading the sort of books that some might consider controversial in a religious sense. I’ll make an even more personal example, especially for those who know us. What I’m describing is happening right now and has been happening for the last six months to a year to Carol and me. I guess I’m not really looking for advice but I’ll bet there are a lot of you who have gone through something similar. This is more of a journal entry of what’s happening in my life these days.

Determining Orthodoxy in LDS Publishing

I’ve always said my blog is mainly about book reviews that deal with the last days. For those who have followed my blog you know that’s true. I confess the subjects of some of my books are controversial or are non-orthodox. In other words, they weren’t published by Deseret Book – who rarely, if ever will publish a book not found in the home library of an apostle or other church leader. I’ve forever been a bit of a rebel. My sort of publisher was always Bookcraft, then Signature Books, and now most of the LDS books I buy are self-published, meaning no LDS publisher would touch them.

Unorthodox Books Reviewed (Some not LDS)

Some examples of books I’ve recently reviewed are Visions of Glory, (Cedar Fort), Conquering Spiritual Evil (Doug Mendenhall), And the Moon Shall Turn to Blood (Anthony Larson), The Unquiet Dead (Dr. Edith Fiore), You Have Been Here Before (Dr. Edith Fiore), Beloved Bridegroom (Donna Nielsen), From Darkness Into Light (Mel Fish), The Second Comforter (Denver Snuffer), Teachings of the Doctrines of Eternal Lives (Anonymous), Passing the Heavenly Gift (Denver Snuffer), Shaken Faith Syndrome (Michael Ash), and on and on…

Passing the Heavenly Gift

I’d like to focus on one book in particular because of the contention it has caused in our home: Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver Snuffer. PtHG was one of the most fascinating and one of the most infuriating books I have ever read. As most of you know, ultimately, it got Denver excommunicated. I have other books in my home from excommunicated or disaffected members that don’t seem to bother Carol, specifically books from D. Michael Quinn or Grant Palmer. I also enjoyed Rough Stone Rolling (Bushman) and No Man Knows My History (Brodie).

Note: Please don’t put Bushman in this category of authors. He is a faithful temple worker.

Direct Opposition to Existing Belief

I first read it in February of 2012. Unsurprisingly, as with any book about which I feel strongly, I asked my wife to read it with me. I thought the natural place to start would be back at chapter one. That was a big mistake. All it did was get her riled up. She would not read past the end of the chapter and will not listen to me read excerpts from other chapters or even from his other books, including his wonderful books on the Savior, The Second Atonement or Come, Let Us Adore Him, both wonderful exposes on the Savior and how we can draw closer to Him. There was something in chapter one that convinced her Denver Snuffer was an out-and-out apostate.

Not the Right Book at the Right Time

I apparently made a big mistake. While I may have been ready for PtHG, Carol was not. As I read PtHG, I had a spiritual experience. I’ve related this before. It spoke to me. It answered so many of my questions that had been on the shelf for so many years. I had not had a spiritual experience like that since my early youth, perhaps from the days when I was preparing for my mission and reading doctrine and history ten to twelve hours a day. I loved the book. I wanted to share it. I thought the dearest person in my life would surely be understanding and sympathetic.

Conflict in Past Religious History

You’ve got to understand a little bit about Carol. She’s no dummy. I wouldn’t have married her if I wasn’t impressed with her gifts and abilities when it came to knowing the church, how it worked, the history, the doctrine, the culture – oh, Carol exudes the culture of the LDS Church since her ancestors crossed the plains. But not me – I’m a first generation Mormon. I’m an old California boy whose maternal ancestors were Presbyterian preachers and paternal ancestors were Baptists Ministers. I have a lot of strong feeling in my blood about religion, but no LDS culture.

The Book is Divisive and a Sifter

That shouldn’t have anything to do with how we view books like Passing the Heavenly Gift. But I found the opposite to be true. I was excited about the book. It got me enthused. It caused me to want to study more, to read more, to pray more and to understand more of Mormon history. I was shocked to discover it had the opposite effect on Carol. I quote: “Yes, Denver Snuffer scares me. I can’t explain my fear. If the Brethren came out and said Denver Snuffer is the next big thing, to listen to and follow him, then, I’d be all over that.” I’ve left out some content. You may find it strange we communicate in writing as husband and wife, but you’ve got to realize Carol is a published author, works all day at writing and was simply responding to an email from me.

There Is No Such Thing As A Snufferite

I have read almost all of Denver’s books. I have listened to almost all his published lectures. By the end of the week I will have finished his last four lectures from Forty Years in Mormonism – Talk 1 – Boise (Sep 10), Talk 2 – Idaho Falls (Sep 28), Talk 3 – Logan, (Sep 29) – Talk 4 – Centerville (Oct 6). I’ll be listening to them in the afternoons after I finish yet another week of early morning Microsoft certification classes from 6am to 2pm – as long as I don’t fall asleep. Many who have been following my blog know I am also seeing a psychiatrist in the afternoons as recommended by my primary physician. We’ve tried everything else to get rid of seven months of constant, and I mean constant migraines. But that’s the way of Western medicine, isn’t it?

Motivated to learn and study the Gospel more

Yes, I know there have now been two or three rebuttals published. I have not yet read the rebuttals. I have always said I am not a scholar or an apologetic. I will leave that to those who love to argue logic. I understand the game but refuse to play it. Carol says she lives her life by her gut feeling – which explains why she was not ready to read PtHG – It would not help her. She didn’t need or want it. The book helped me. I needed it. I wanted it. I had been looking for something like that book for many years. Please note: I am not any less of a believer in the church, in the apostles and prophets and their right to lead us or in the existence of the sealing power in the temples. I simply want to learn more.

We Need to Understand Priesthood Keys

By the way, this is probably my 20th post on some aspect of Denver Snuffer. Obviously I feel he has something special and unique to offer. No, he does not take the place of President Thomas S. Monson. No, he does not have keys to lead this church (as far as I can tell). I am certain the Lord would let us know if something were to change in that area (Amos 3:7). I believe Denver has a mission – perhaps more than one – that has been revealed to him. He performed one mission that got him excommunicated – publishing a controversial book. He is now performing another mission, providing us with about 25 hours of lecture on some very important aspects of priesthood doctrine. I am looking forward to his next talk. I truly wish I could be there. Due to work, I will probably not be able to make it to any of his lectures except maybe St. George.

We Worked Out our Differences

And for those of you who are wondering how Carol and I worked this out, I will share this. It got so testy for a while I put all his books and CDs in a box and put them away. I refrained from saying, “Well, here’s something I remember reading Denver saying about that…” This morning we came to an agreement. Even after I had her read this post, she confesses she is still afraid that Denver will “steal me away.” I have no idea where she thinks I would go or what I would do but I never professed to understand women except for one thing – they need lots of reassuring. Carol is no different. Perhaps I should be the one who needs to be reassured as her career grows, as she publishes more books and realizes her dreams but I see my role as to encourage her, to do nothing to hold her back, including pay for publishing classes, seminars,  conventions, etc, which I gladly do. I want to see her succeed as a published author (if she could just figure out her genre).

God bless You Who Deal With Similar Issues

I have seen divorces as a result of disagreements over religion, especially when it comes to how to discipline children or budgeting. These are the most difficult areas to make a marriage work. I remember my own inadequacies and failures in this area. They left me feeling awful, like I had failed at the most important mission of my life. At times I felt like the meanest father in the world. At other times I felt like the weakest man in the world, unable to lead my own family in righteousness. I don’t know any perfect families. I am grateful my son is still alive and a productive, seemingly happy member of society in his own home. We gave him up to suicide, mental insanity, drugs and alcohol many years ago. The answer was to put his name on the prayer role as often as possible and to continue to pray for him every morning and night, which we have done all his life, but especially the last fifteen years since his drug / mental issues first showed themselves. (Write me privately at tmalonemcse @ gmail.com if you want to know the story of how his drug addiction sent me to the hospital twice in February of this year).

Trust in the Lord as you Seek Knowledge

I pray that something as silly as the reading of a book will never get in the way a working relationship with your loved ones, be it the Book of Mormon or some anti-Mormon book. Think about it. Some General Authorities have to be assigned to read them so they’ll know what’s in them. How would you like to be that GA? Not me. If someone in your family wants to read the works of D. Michael Quinn, Denver Snuffer, Mel Fish or anyone else that write about the church but is not published by Deseret Book, please don’t let that desire or fear get in the way of your marriage. Trust the Lord and your love for each other. I wish I could have Carol tell her side of this story. I’ll bet it would be very different. Maybe someday she’ll oblige us. I’m confident it will be focused on her fear of losing me to the dark side.

29 Responses

  1. Tim,

    You might think of PtHG as a call for Adam to awake and arise.

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    • I like that. Maybe this is a sexist remark, but to me that says the writing style of Denver Snuffer appeals more to men than to women. Take the movie Patton, for example – this really dates me – most men find General Patton’s personality to be that of a good leader, one they would follow to death. Most women found him to be an insensitive jerk with no concept of the feelings of other people. Tell me I’m wrong.

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  2. Tim my friend, please consider Carol ‘s concerns. I had been worried about you and was impressed on Friday that perhaps you should seek help from your help meet. I even looked up her writings and recognized at once how much wisdom and insight she has. (This all took place before you put up this blog). I have studied both Denver and Mel Fish and have sensed something in both their writings. Both have given us beautiful truths and a great deal to work out involving our own minds and hearts. In both cases the spirit seemed to whisper of the truth in some of what each put forth. However, with both it seemed they each went beyond the mark, taking us into unknown and unproven paths. Your wife loves you dearly. As with any writings, accept truths as they are given to both of you and let the rest wait upon the Lord for His confirmation to you both. Your relationship with your dear wife is far more important than others you barely know. She will keep you on the safe road.

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    • Ann, I had a nice long written response thanking you for your advice and concern. Something happened and it disappeared. I’ll try again composing outside WordPress in a more controlled environment. Trust me, I do think about Carol’s concerns. What happened between us regarding the writings of Denver Snuffer was a learning experience the Lord intended for me to gain. The bottom line is that some people do not like Denver’s writing style, consider him to be arrogant, offensive and insensitive. Carol has a need to be lead slowly into a new concept, especially since the first chapter in PtHG talks about succession in the presidency. But more than that, her feelings are that he is an apostate, while I do not, even with his excommunication.

      I like Denver’s style because he is direct and to the point. He reminds me of General Patton of World War II as played by George C Scott. His style is that of a man’s man – a leader of men who understand the toughness of what they’re about and can put up with speaking directly about difficult subjects. He doesn’t beat around the bush. He did NOT do well with women or with moderates in his style. Patton made a lot of enemies in the press and among his peers because he spoke in a style that did not lead itself to a lot of background introduction. He assumed you already knew a lot, understood the enemy and was ready to do battle. That’s why I respond well to people (men or women) with write with this direct, even somewhat risky, style.

      I like going beyond the unknown. I like the unproven path. I like testing the mark, and actually figuring out where the mark is. That is the opposite of Carol’s style in life. She likes the familiar, the known, the customary, the usual, and the reliable. Carol’s concern is that I will leave the church. I can’t imagine where she thinks I would go. We have had this conversation several times. Nobody else has the sacrament, the temples, the right or commandment to publish the scriptures, preach the gospel or do a myriad of things the church is authorized to do. As I write in the post, I have done a poor job of reassuring Carol where I am in my spiritual progression. People grow and change. That’s the purpose of life. Much if not most of my growth comes through what I read, study and write. That is not Carol’s style. She is not interested in my blog.

      I write my blog specifically to investigate the cutting edge of spiritual things, especially things of a spiritual nature. Doug Mendenhall’s book on Conquering Spiritual Evil would rank a ten on my scale of books I find interesting. I haven’t asked but I can imagine it would be a 0 or a 1 to Carol. To be fair I will ask her. Unfortunately, she would have to read excerpts to get an opinion. It wouldn’t be fair to even have her read my reviews. To be even fairer, we should take Carol out of the equation here. I write for a large audience – typically 500, sometimes as many as 2,000 people. So Ann, in summary, I agree with you. The Lord wants us to be united. “If ye are not one, ye are not mine. Marriage is a give and take situation. I’ve gone through this specifically over the past six months. I thought it might prove interesting to some of my readers to see the process from my point of view – that is, how Carol views what I read, study and write about. That’s why I try to make sure we read the scriptures together because it kicks off great discussions and where I learn a lot about her concerns.”

      Ann, just so you know I offered to take my blog down and was moments away from pushing the button a week or two ago. Carol is the one who convinced me to keep it going. I am no dummy. I could see it was coming between us, especially my writings about Denver. That’s why I boxed them up and put them away. That only made her mad, which I didn’t understand, because I figured that’s what she wanted. Obviously, even after 31 years of marriage I still don’t understand women, or at least what my own wife really wants. Her focus is on writing and publishing romance. I confess, as a man, I have zero understanding of romance. I know I just made all the women in my readership mad at me but it’s true. I’m an action kind of guy. My fiction book is end-of-the-world type of stuff. Yet that seems to scare most people. Go figure.

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  3. Tim,

    First off, you don’t accept spiritual advice from people who know less than you do. Your wife included. The problem you’ve run into is described in Alma 12:9

    9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
    10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

    So let’s say you have been given some of these mysteries. And of course, who do we want to share all these wonderful things with? Our spouse! Bad move dude. According to Alma you can have them but you are not allowed to share them. Even with your spouse. Why aren’t you allowed to share them? Because they aren’t ready for them and will automatically reject them and harden their hearts against these truths.

    That’s your problem. In your eagerness to share these wonderful discoveries, you blabbed them to your wife when she was not ready for them. Thus she rejected them and now you are in the dog house.

    Well you may ask…when can I share these wonderful discoveries? When someone asks you about them. Then and only then can you share them. Because now they asked you. That’s how you know people are ready for the truth…because they ask for them. Up until that time…you keep your mouth shut. I know it’s hard to do. But you are not doing them any favors by trying to inform someone about the beautiful things you’ve discovered when they are not ready for them. In fact, as you have discovered to your chagrin, sharing wonderful things before people are ready for them comes back to bite you in the butt.

    So Tim…dude. In your innocent eagerness to share these wonderful things with the person you love the most, you’ve turned her heart hard. Sorry to say this…but that’s what happened.

    My advice? Don’t tell he another thing. Not a peep. Tell her your sorry and you won’t bring up the subject again.

    Now you keep studying. Like Abraham we are to seek for more light and knowledge. But nothing escapes your lips from now on.

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    • Yep. You answered a great question for me I hadn’t even asked – when do we know when we can share something wonderful that has blessed our lives. Answer: Wait until someone asks. Thanks for the great advice.

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      • Tim: Just in case your doctor hasn’t thought of these things I’ve known people who have been relieved of migraines by the following….
        1) Botox — paralyzed muscles triggering migraines
        2) stopping looking at computer monitors for hours at a time (eyes)
        3) changing angle of viewing computer (neck/spine)
        4) seeing allergist, she was severely allergic to a common food
        5) acupuncture
        6) yoga
        7) meditation combined with some of the above
        8) seeing a neurologist and orthopedist together for pinched or pressed neck nerves
        9) all of the above

        I pray you find healing, and get a blessing from someone who will command them to stop. One of the earlier prophets said he was concerned that priesthood holders were not rebuking disease and affliction the way they ought….that God gave them the power to stand in His shoes and do the things He would do. I’ll try to find that quote again. But I hope you know someone who will be so confident and bold. I’m so sorry for such unrelenting pain.

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    • I concur with this concept of not telling her anything about it. Four years ago I began studying church history in depth. As I studied I would tell my husband, “Guess what I learned?” After about a half dozen or less such questions he told me he did not want to know anything I was learning. I was so mystified because we always share everything, even the challenging stuff. But he said he didn’t want to learn of flaws, or errors, or negative aspects of what people did long ago. For me, it was like Tim……..it helped me tremendously to resolve shelved concerns and issues. It helped me with confusion, perplexities, and it opened my naive eyes to the idol worship of leaders I was guilty of. I revered them so much I think I put them on or near the same level as the Savior. But now I see them as wonderful people, not Mormon Hollywood-style idols. It makes me love them in a far more real and Christlike way. And I’ve grown much more aware of worshipping only God. My husband has never heard another word about any of my study. A few times I feel lonely about not sharing these things. But the Spirit has always confirmed that I not do so. He is not ready. These things would hurt him. He fears his own apostasy, not my own, I think, if he learned too much too soon. Sometimes I have shared something faith-promoting. He doesn’t know who said or wrote it, but that’s okay. It promotes his faith and I’m very happy playing a small role in that endeavor. We are both growing……each in our own way. And we have many, many other things we share together on our journey to become one.

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    • Bruce,
      I very much needed to hear this right now. Thank you so much for your words! And thank you, Tim, for being so candid in sharing an issue many of us experience. :)

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  4. You can tell Carol she is not alone! Most women have a natural strong sense and capacity with the Spirit, my wife including. I am very accepting of people but she can read someone in seconds and know if they have issues or not.

    I have read the first 3 talks, for me, I find Denver a not very good speaker. Of course, I am more get to the point. Joseph Smith was/is a prophet – fine, I agree. Only follow Joseph Smith – don’t agree. Lectures on Faith are scripture – fine. Accusing previous leaders of no faith since they pulled the LoF from the standard works – another jab at church leadership. Repenting – fine. Saying we need to repent of “our false concepts” – I believe are leaders are real and the church is alive, so I disagree.

    That being said, here is something you and others can respond to.

    We are sealed to our spouses in one of God’s Holy Temples. For eternity. I know you have to have that confirmed by the Holy Spirit. For me, the Perfect Day would not be me meeting the Savior, but both me and my wife.

    So I would like your perspective on that point. Maybe Daniel could chip in too.

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  5. Rick, read parable 10 in Snuffer’s 10 Parables.

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  6. Great post Tim. Denver’s writings have the same affect with my wife. I recently expressed my concern regarding the “President Monson Award”. If you haven’t checked it out, look it up in your ward. You will be shocked. It is an award for scouts during the 100 year scout church anniversary celebration. The young man meets certain religious requirements and is awarded a gold talisman with a picture of President Monson in the middle of it. It is small gold, arched and decorated pendant suspended on a gold chain worn by young men at ceremonial occasions!!!

    My wife thinks there is no problem with this. I see a huge problem with pope or saint worship. This is the message of PTHG which echoes the scriptures! Denver is telling us to study GOD’s word, obtain the gift of personal revelation and live obediently to the Holy Spirit or Voice of the LORD. I had an interesting conversation with my 14 year old daughter, who on her own concluded and acknowledged that people wear talismans as a outward performance of piety. Hmmmm sounds like practices of the great and abominable church? Probably something I should avoid and teach my children to avoid. I gently helped the same daughter not wear the upside down broken cross. I did not forbid, but invited her to consider the power of the symbology. She gave away the shirt.

    Back to the wife thing. My wife is an angel, absolute angel. Serves GOD with all her heart, might, mind, and strength. I count my blessings to have her as a wife. Talented, smart, good looking, caring, everything a wife can be. One thing she is not is spontaneous or daring. In all things conservative and narrowly focused. Intense and passionate about what is comfortable to her. She is comfortable with the official narrative. I think I can relate to your dilemma.

    Recently the Voice of the LORD told me that Karinne’s faith is child-like and her goodness and virtue is GOD’s glory. As a husband trying to be like Jesus, she will love your goodness and spiritual power and will follow you into the Father’s presence. A righteous woman will never be denied a place at the supper table of the Bridegroom. Her virtue, sacrifice, service, and good works will be rewarded. Remember the temple marriage ceremony when you went for your marriage. Interesting thought, who approached the veil passing through first? What came next…

    You and I will pray, plead, obey and seek the face of GOD…

    What a glorious blessing the restored Gospel is!!! Thank GOD for his son Jehovah the anointed one and prophets like Joseph Smith who said “build a temple and come see the face of the LORD, from the least to the greatest, all are invited to marriage feast.”

    Makes me want to shout Hurrah Hurrah Hurrah for Israel!…GOD willing we’ll gather next year in New Jerusalem, Zion the City of our GOD!

    In Christ Jesus’ love, your fellow sojourner. lb

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  7. “this is an unrelenting stare into the eyes of the foundation of the beast which now claims to be the Restoration through Joseph Smith. ” DS.

    I wish all of you the best on your quest to be the few, the raptured few, may you find those things that you desire.

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  8. All is well in Zion! Except, of course, for those benighted fools who don’t believe what they are being taught about all being well in Zion. We need to get rid of those guys. Then all will be well in Zion.

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  9. I did as I said I would do in my post. I listened to lecture 2 from Idaho Falls. I had already listened to lecture 1 from awhile back. I had the advantage of a padded chair. Those who have listened to the lecture will understand. All I can say is wow.

    In other news I meet with the Bishop tomorrow. I do not know why. I assume it is to inquire after my health. I love our bishop and his family and know him to be a good man. As I have always said, if he asks me to remove this blog then it will be done. I was reminded tonight that exaltation is received BY sacrifice and in no other way.

    If the sacrifice the Lord requires of me is my health for a season or the rest of my life than so be it. If he requires the removal of this blog than it will be done. It take the push of a button. Few will understand to what I refer, but the Lord knows as this is my journal. I copy it to my own journal on my local hard drive each night. This is just the public copy.

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    • Wow. Is there censorship in heaven? Sad. Really sad. Your blog is great. Hopefully the visit is about your health. God bless. lb

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      • A quasi-joke. Besides ceasing publication of his book, PtHG, one of the requirements for Denver to avoid excommunication was to cancel his lecture tour. Obviously someone in Salt Lake did not want him sharing the things he is now sharing in a public. Well, he did what he felt the Lord wanted him to do. Let me restate that – he said he was doing this lecture tour by assignment from the Lord. I can see why. Critics say he’s not that good a speaker. I couldn’t disagree more. He teaches from the scriptures. At times he is passionate in emphasizing a point, I am so glad he had the courage to do what the Lord asked him to do, even though it cost him his membership. I needed to hear that lecture even way out here in California. Thank you to my friend Doug Mendenhall for recording and distributing. Why did the church want it suppressed?

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      • They thought he was going to go on a PTHG publicity tour. That was what the disciplinary letter said – “cancel your planned speaking tour… which I believe will promote the views expressed in PTHG.” Therefore, they wanted him to not go on such a tour, because PTHG “is not constructive to work of salvation or promotion of faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ,” is in “direct conflict with church doctrine,” “mischaracterized doctrine,” “denigrated virtually every prophet since Joseph Smith,” “and placed the church in a negative light.” It’s a “misguided” “attempt to bridge the gap between the church and its dissidents,” which will “attract only the attention of those whose spiritual eyes, ears, and hearts are obscured from the truth.”

        Therefore, the book was deemed to contain content which “must be withdrawn.”

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  10. Thank you, Tim for this post. Very timely for me indeed. Unfortunately my husband and I do not see eye to eye on Denver either. And I’d be lying if I said it hasn’t caused strife. We’ve also made pacts not to talk about him for the sake of harmony. I also appreciate Bruce’s comment, as I think it applies to me. Thanks Tim, keep up the good work!

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  11. This is a very common issue even with me. The spouse is not ready to search teh scriptures or seek “mysteries” as defined in the scriptures such as 2 nephi 32:7, and I think its alma 12 and many other places. Just casual observance. Denver has caused a divide not just him but beliefs about waking up to our awful situation, a cleansing that is ever so evident, the only way to be saved is to seek the face of the lord that we may posses our souls, and the consequences of such a statement.

    It causes strife because we learn what is required to be saved and desire others to know that they can start the process. Its hard but I loved what denver said in CD 2, Logan on repentance, We cannot become selfish (forgot the word he used) due to others ignorance. We must be patient, even as jesus who was with the men who killed him, who would not have if they knew who he really was.

    Its said to hear stories of things happening but all I know we must stand for true and sacrifice all things. no matter the consequences. I reflect upon something hyrum smith said as prophet to the church. I take comfort in it.

    [quote]
    ***
    Whereas, in times past persons have been permitted to gather with the Saints at Nauvoo, in North America—such as husbands leaving their wives and children behind; also, such as wives leaving their husbands, and such as husbands leaving their wives who have no children, and some because their companions are unbelievers. All this kind of proceedings we consider to be erroneous and for want of proper information. And the same should be taught to all the Saints, and not suffer families to be broken up on any account whatever if it be possible to avoid it. Suffer no man to leave his wife because she is an unbeliever. These things are an evil and must be forbidden by the authorities of the church or they will come under condemnation; for the gathering is not in hast nor by flight, but to prepare all things before you, and you know not but the unbeliever may be converted and the Lord heal him; but let the believers exercise faith in God, and the unbelieving husband shall be sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife by the believing husband, and families are preserved and saved from a great evil which we have seen verified before our eyes. Behold this is a wicked generation, full of lyings, and deceit, and craftiness; and the children of the wicked are wiser than the children of light; that is, they are more crafty; and it seems that it has been the case in all ages of the world.

    And the man who leaves his wife and travels to a foreign nation, has his mind overpowered with darkness, and Satan deceived him and flatters him with the graces of the harlot, and before he is aware he is disgraced forever; and greater is the danger for the woman that leaves her husband. The evils resulting from such proceedings are of such a nature as to oblige us to cut them off from the church.

    And we also forbid that a woman leave her husband because he is an unbeliever. We also forbid that a man shall leave his wife because she is an unbeliever. If he be a bad man (i.e., the believer) there is a law to remedy that evil. And if the law divorce them, then they are at liberty; otherwise they are bound as long as they two shall live, and it is not our prerogative to go beyond this; if we do it, it will be at the expense of our reputation.

    These things we have written in plainness and we desire that they should be publicly known,

    ***[/quote]

    All things will give us experience and hopefully for others too.

    Last I feel to post this scripture,

    D&C 88 68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

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  12. You know, I have to level with you here. I am a member and my husband isn’t. I have dealt with lots of so-called perfect mormons such as you who see me as a *fringe* member, and partially committed and not going to the celestial kingdom. Which I probably won’t. But I can honestly say, I can share everything I read from Denver Snuffer with my nonmember husband and he’s totally open to it. I have a feeling there’s some pride for “the traditions of your fathers which are not correct” here. Just a feeling!

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  13. I am a 6th generation Mormon and my husband is the convert. We talk about religion almost daily and we sometimes disagree about interpretations of the scriptures, but we also agree on many issues. Sometimes I’m not ready to believe his ideas — then later I’m on board or not. There are things still on the shelf for both of us.

    We both read Denver’s book on the second comforter. I liked it, my husband did too, but he disagreed with some things — He believes you need the baptism of fire first before the second comforter and with the second comforter you get your calling and election made sure. I’m not sure if you need it in that order. We haven’t read Denver’s last book.

    We read other books and I think that helps. We both enjoy listening to Hugh Nibley and books by Avraham Gileadi. My husband has always been into Mormon history and he taught our kids about Joseph Smith and his peep stone. I guess we always liked the mystical part of the history.

    We’ve had our share of disappointments and discouragements in the church, but we value our membership, as you do. And our marriage. Life is messy and difficult and I hate discord, but we stumble into it and out of it.

    I hope your health improves -

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  14. I too have been caught up in the excitement of actually being taught doctrine. As a result, all of my close friends and family have had at least one conversation with me about the Sandy Seer. My wife has been patient, but it is obvious that she wants nothing to do with Denver Snuffer. I now know to leave his name out of the conversation. Although she knows where I am getting my material she can swallow the doctrine if I don’t mention his name. The doctrine is sound and edifying.

    Even my mom agrees with the doctrine coming from Denver Snuffer. That saying a lot. When I asked her if she would just read a chapter from one of Denver’s books she replied: “I went to the temple and prayed about it. No.” I have used the same approach with my mom–just talking doctrine. When I explained that following the prophet is following a man and that we should instead try to follow Christ. Her response was an endearing: “Well, Duh.”

    The conversation with my mom continued. When you follow Christ’s prophet you are following Christ. Again, this is something both my mom and I agreed on. It is sound doctrine, but it begs the question: who is Christ’s prophet? My understanding of our doctrine suggests that someone who claims to have been in the presence of God should be considered.

    The conversation with my mom climaxed when she said: “well, only you and Denver Snuffer will be saved then.” My mom was overwhelmed with the difficulty and responsibility of determining who was a true servant of Christ. I viewed this responsibility as one of the most basic tenants of the LDS faith. By the end of the conversation both my mom and I were edified, and my mom understood that it was her responsibility to find out whether or not Christ speaks through servants other than Pres. Monson.

    Denver’s message is divisive because it scares the faint of heart. However, the Lord’s sheep hear his voice. His voice is speaks truths in the form of simple doctrine. For example, I asked my wife if she thought a visitation from Christ or other heavenly messengers “in the flesh” was a requirement for exaltation. After some thought she said no, because she didn’t know anyone in her family who had experienced it, and she couldn’t stand the thought of all her potentially unredeemed family members. After hearing herself say it out loud, we both came to the conclusion that this excuse was not good doctrine. Those who believe that communication with God is necessary for exaltation have meaning and purpose in their life. To those who don’t, it is an excuse to procrastinate or prohibit their repentance.

    I agree with what has been said about waiting for people to inquire before shoving doctrine down their throats that they are just going to spit back up. However, everybody has a “next step” on their progression up the ladder. The trick is sharing the right doctrine at the right time to the right person.

    None of us should embark on this path alone.

    P.S. If you’re asked to take down the blog, email me and I’ll take up the cause. I think Denver has a message worth sharing.

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  15. Tim, I know this is off subject (I´m not sure how to send you a pm) but have you happened to read “The Joseph Smith 1839 Account of Restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood: A Personal Essay” by Andrew F. Ehat which is cited in one of Denver´s talks? I´ve done a search on it and have been unable to find it. Would you happen to know where to find a copy of that?

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  16. It’s sad that this lovely post has turned into just one more thread where some people can belittle those who see things differently than they do.

    Tim, your primary relationship is with your wife. Without her, you cannot be exalted – especially if “without her” is over what someone else writes. In the Garden of Eden narrative, Adam had to choose between staying with his wife and leaving God or staying with God and leaving his wife. He chose to stay with his wife, since he had faith that doing so eventually would bring him back to God. There is a lot of power in that message, regardless of how someone sees the narrative as a whole.

    If something you are “viewing” and “considering” is driving an irreconcilable wedge between you and your wife, give it up. Period. Nothing is worth that division – nothing. It’s not about you (individually); it’s about you (together). If it was porn, it would be understood immediately. It’s not, but if the effect is the same, the effect is the same.

    “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for a friend.” Laying down something like what you have mentioned in this post for your best friend is a no-brainer to me – and not allowing others to criticize that best friend in the (subtle but condescending) way some here have also is a no-brainer to me. Think about that, please.

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