Divine Discontent and Enduring to the End


EndureUntoTheEndThe Need for Denver’s Message

One of the main ideas Carol and I have discussed concerning Denver Snuffer is the necessity of the message he has delivered. Carol has made it clear she did not and does not feel there was or is any need for someone like Denver Snuffer to remind us how important it is to literally come unto Christ. The discussion always ends with her pointing out enduring to the end is sufficient.

Endure to the End is Sufficient

“We’ve been baptized. We’ve received the Holy Ghost. We’ve both served missions. We’ve been endowed and sealed in the temple. We try to live faithfully, accept callings and pay tithing. We try to do our home and visiting teaching although we can do better. Now all we need to do is endure to the end. That means keep going to church as long as our health permits. Right, Tim?”

An Investment in Understanding

That’s almost a direct quote. After two years I have learned to simply say, “Yes, dear.” Actually, I learned to say that a long time ago, but particularly in this situation. I’m grateful she doesn’t begrudge the money I’ve spent purchasing his books, the time I’ve spent studying what he has written or the effort I’ve put into sharing this journey on my blog. After all, she’s a writer too.

More than a Casual Reader

I suppose I’m more than a casual reader of Denver’s material. In addition to the books, some of which I’ve read two or three times, I’ve read most of his blog, bought every recorded lecture and printed them so I could study them. So that’s hundreds of hours? I suppose so. Is it time wasted? Could it have been better spent in scripture reading? Trust me, it includes that and gospel study.

Attending the Lectures

I was this close to flying up to Boise for the opening lecture. I have not been able to attend any of the five talks given so far on his current lecture tour due to conflicts with my work commitments. Carol and I have already agreed to travel up to St. George next year to hear that one in person. Well, it’s agreed we’re going, but it’s anyone’s guess if she actually goes to the lecture with me.

Denver’s Message Not For Everyone

Maybe it’s different for men. I feel driven to understand Denver’s message and to be received by the Savior in a literal, physical way while yet mortal. Carol does not. I think I’ve shared on my blog previously how I fasted before my mission for three days and the results of that fast. The Lord answered my prayer and spoke peace to my mind that my efforts were sufficient for then.

The Maturing Process of Life

I heard his voice in my mind, but He made it clear I was not ready. I had not yet been endowed. After my mission I got involved in my career and somehow the desire to receive the Second Comforter left me. I began to say to myself, as I heard in so many talks and lessons, “Enduring to the end is sufficient. Just live a good life, remain temple worthy and magnify your callings.”

The Return of Divine Discontent

I lived with that belief for over thirty years. Then I read Denver Snuffer’s books and everything changed. The feelings I had from before my mission that I should seek to enter into the presence of the Lord in this life returned. I call it Divine Discontent. I think I first heard that phrase in a talk by Neal Maxwell from October 1976 General Conference: Notwithstanding my Weakness.

Accused of Being Divisive

I suspect the scenario I just described is why some of my readers have left comments either here or on Facebook that Denver is divisive and wrong. Carol has said that his writing frightens her. I continue to do all I can to show, by my actions, there is no threat in Denver’s messages, which I now put into two categories: 1) Receive the Second Comforter, 2) Understand our history better.

Not Asked to Gather Anywhere

When I have responded to her, and some of you on this blog who have raised the same point that Denver is not asking us to do anything other than items one and two above, the response I get is, “not yet,” or as some of you have said, “this isn’t over yet,” referring, I’m sure, to the fact that he has not completed his lecture tour. “Who’s to say what he is then going to ask of his followers?”

Come Unto Christ, not Denver Snuffer

She knows I like to counter with “We’re not followers, we’re readers.” I’ve also made the point in my writings I’m not a Snufferite. My standard response is I simply want to come unto Christ. I enjoy Denver’s style of writing. I understand Carol’s point what he writes frightens some people. It means change. I’ve already addressed the idea of unity in marriage. “If ye are not one…”

Voicing that Divine Discontent

Depending on what blogs or forums you like to read, there seems to be much discontent with the way things are going in our nation, and in some cases, in the church. Some promote the idea we take a more active role in voicing discontent through dissent. Some have even suggested we go to the Conference Center as a block to cast an opposing vote in the annual sustaining process.

Investment in City Creek Mall

I never could or would do something like that. First of all, I do sustain the Brethren, meaning, I am happy with their efforts to lead this church. Maybe it’s a Utah thing, but I wasn’t upset with the church’s explanation for where the money came from to build the City Creek Center. I accept that it came from interest earned on our tithing money. For some reason, that doesn’t bother me.

Prepare for Collapse of United States

Other popular LDS-related forums seem to be advocating we get prepared for more than a natural catastrophe. There’s talk of what we should do when the government is overthrown or fails of its own accord. These people are deceiving themselves. It’s good to be involved in the political process. We know it’s prophesied the United States government will collapse.

Spreading rumors of massive violence

Some of the private emails I receive from readers are repeating a rumor that we’ve got until just shortly after Denver finishes his lecture tour before things start to get really dicey here in the United States, meaning they fear economic collapse will soon turn our nation into a land of roving gangs with no central government or police presence to control the violence. What?

Visions of Glory – One Man’s Opinion

One of the most-read posts here on Latter-day Commentary is still my book review of Visions of Glory written by John Pontius. If you read my review (Jan 2013), you know I gave it a mixed response, meaning I agreed with many things in it, especially views of the spirit world found in the first third of the book. As I wrote there, I had problems with the latter parts of the book.

God Will Fight His Own Battles

I didn’t and still don’t object to Spencer’s idea that we will experience great natural catastrophes. If there is anything I find in common with messages from the prophets, it is the prediction of global destruction to occur in the last days. That’s how the nations will be overthrown, not by any act of man. God will take care of things. He has warned us this has long been on its way.

Israel is Central to Events of Last Days

I’ve already expressed my opinion that the world, including the United States will soon turn against Israel to the point of war. I have no doubt Israel will soon act to remove the nuclear threat it sees from Iran. Because Israel will have to act alone with no support from the United States – not politically correct anymore – every nation will gather to fight against them. It’s in prophecy.

Be Prepared For These Events

When the prophesied events of the last days happen, they will be rapid. Things will dramatically change around the world in the period of just a few years. What bothers me is that most people, including most LDS, have not been listening to the message of the prophets, ancient and modern, that the best and most needed preparation we can make for the coming destruction is spiritual.

Don’t Forget Cosmological Signs

That’s why I feel that Divine Discontent is a good thing. It’s driving me to understand better what the Lord will do in these last days. If you want to say that it’s all going to start as soon as Denver finishes his current lecture tour next year, fine. I can accept that. I wonder why so many good LDS writers and bloggers exclude the writings of Anthony Larson in their pontifications.

Writings of Anthony Larson

I can understand if you don’t like the predictions found in Anthony’s books. After all, he has taken the writings of a man rejected by the scientific community and combined them with the scriptures to come up with his unique combination of what is about to come upon us. The word most commonly used by his critics is pseudoscience or ideas of man mingled with scripture.

Signs of the Times Explained

My long-time readers know I disagree. Just like I have gone out on a limb in my claims that Denver Snuffer is a prophet because he is delivering a message he says the Lord asked him to deliver, I have long advocated that LDS folks read Anthony Larson’s prophecy trilogy. It was in Deseret Book stores for years. If you really want to understand the last days, Anthony can help.

One More Writer I Recommend

I know both writers are unorthodox. I know they both have their critics, some very vocal. I might as well add to the list one other LDS writer who can best help you prepare for the last days. I’ve written about him before: Mel Fish. Mel is not the only one who teaches what he does about how to remove the influence of the adversary from your life, but he has published more than others.

How I Have Tried to Prepare

So there you have it. If I were asked whose books should I read to be best prepared for the last days and the eminent destruction which is prophesied to shortly come to pass, these are the three men I would recommend. Their writings have done more to help me understand what the Lord is about to do very soon than those of any other LDS writer. “If ye are prepared ye shall not fear.”

Promptings of the Holy Ghost

The basis for everything these men teach is found in the scriptures. In other words, if you have the gift of the Holy Ghost and the scriptures, you don’t need what these men have written. There is much disagreement about their interpretations of the scriptures. I have chosen the Holy Ghost as my guide. He has led me to the writings of these men. The spirit may lead you elsewhere.

Perhaps Only Philosophies of Men

I confess I am a weak man when it comes to understanding what I read in the Bible and other standard works. The language of the scriptures is different from the way we speak and write today. That’s why I’m grateful for what I have learned from these men who have studied and written much of what they felt the Lord wanted them to share. I feel forewarned and prepared.

Inspired Writings From Many Sources

Maybe you don’t need the interpretations of others to understand the Lord’s strange act of the Last Days. I do. I appreciate the words of our living prophets and apostles. I simply ask myself, why has the spirit led me to the writings of these particular men? The answer always comes, after years and years of reading, studying and praying: “These men were also inspired of the Lord.”

Wrapping it Up

You may say this post is all over the place. You’re probably right. What was my point? It had something to do with Divine Discontent, right? My point is the Lord may inspire you to study the teachings of other men and women besides those we sustain as prophets, seers and revelators. My point is that the writings of these men have helped me in dealing with Divine Discontent.

What Drives You May Be Different

Maybe you don’t suffer from Divine Discontent. Carol doesn’t. She is perfectly happy with her life as a writer of romance novels – or whatever genre she decides to tackle. Please don’t take this as a sexist remark: Maybe Divine Discontent is a malady that only strikes men. Maybe I’m unique in that I feel so driven and have felt driven by the Lord to read the writings of these men.

My Blog feels Completed

If this ends up being the last post I ever write on my blog, I will be happy. I have shared what I intended to share when I started blogging six years ago. I have introduced you to the writings of three men whose messages I felt the Lord wanted me to receive. I have tried to explain them and in many cases, to defend them. I feel I have done what the Lord wanted me to do with this blog.

Enduring to the End

Starting tomorrow I’m back to work. My week of vacation was well spent. I re-read Come, Let Us Adore Him and made good progress on my third reading of The Second Comforter. While I’m not there yet, meaning I have not received the Second Comforter, I feel my time was well spent. I’ve appreciated everyone’s comments on my last few posts. Thanks for stopping by. God Bless.

17 Responses

  1. The Lord likes to use word play to shield meaning from the unprepared. D&C 19:10-12 is a good example. One of his many name/titles is Alpha and Omega – The Beginning and the End. He is the End. We need to endure until we come unto the End (return to His presence redeemed from the fall). The scriptures don’t talk about enduring until the end of your life- just the End.

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    • Thanks Nathan. I have never heard it explained that way. Thanks for adding your comment. So, “The End” is to come back into His presence, to be redeemed from the fall. It means so much more than to simply “hang in there…” until the end of this life. That’s profound.

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  2. 6 I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body—

    7 I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world.

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    • continue is different than endure

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      • endure

        ENDU’RE, v.t. [L. durus, duro.]

        1. To last; to continue in the same state without perishing; to remain; to abide.
        The Lord shall endure forever. Ps.9.
        He shall hold it [his house] fast, but it shall not endure. Job.8.
        2. To bear; to brook; to suffer without resistance, or without yielding.
        How can I endure to see the evil that shall come to my people? Esther 8.
        Can thy heart endure, or thy hands be strong? Ezek. 22.
        ENDU’RE, v.t. To bear; to sustain; to support without breaking or yielding to force or pressure. Metals endure a certain degree of heat without melting.

        Both were of shining steel, and wrought so pure.
        As might the strokes of two such arms endure.
        1. To bear with patience; to bear without opposition or sinking under the pressure.
        Therefore, I endure all things for the elect’s sake. 2 Tim 2.
        If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons. Heb.12.
        2. To undergo; to sustain.
        I wish to die, yet dare not death endure.
        3. To continue in. [Not used.]

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      • continue

        CONTINUE, v.i. [L., to hold. See Tenet.]

        1. To remain in a state, or place; to abide for any time indefinitely.
        The multitude continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat. Matthew 15.
        2. To last; to be durable; to endure; to be permanent.
        Thy kingdom shall not continue. 1 Samuel 13.
        3. To persevere; to be steadfast or constant in any course.
        If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed. John 8.
        CONTINUE, v.t.

        1. To protract; not to cease from or to terminate.
        O continue thy loving kindness to them that know thee. Psalm 36.
        2. To extend from one thing to another; to produce or draw out in length. Continue the line from A to B. Let the line be continued to the boundary.
        3. To persevere in; not to cease to do or use; as, to continue the same diet.
        4. To hold to or unite. [Not used.]
        The navel continues the infant to its mother.

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    • If you read Lectures on Faith, you’ll see that “continuing in the faith” means obtaining more of the word of God, following it, then repeating until God asks you to sacrifice all things. The conclusion of that event, says Joseph, is always to gain your calling and election. That is the end. Not of life, clearly, but what “the end” in enduring to the end is meant to be. It is crystal clear from reading LoF.

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      • Rob, I’m honored you’ve pointed that out. I know Denver has quoted from the Lectures on Faith extensively. I have a copy somewhere in my library, probably hidden behind Christmas decorations at the moment. I’ve found them online at several sources. Take your pick. Here’s one:

        http://www.mormonbeliefs.com/lectures_on_faith.htm

        You’ve given us a formula. I like that. It’s how my mind works, after the degree in programming and all the years in computer support. I like the step by step stuff. Ask God what he would have you do or something he would like you to change / become. It usually involves sacrifice. Do as the Holy Ghost inspires, report back to the Lord and ask for the next thing He would have you do / accomplish / become. Sounds so simple.

        I’m on it. I ask every night. I ask every morning. I ask many times during the day for the best way to respond in a given situation, like perhaps when my boss is angry with me (really with his computer) or someone says (I hate this), “Why didn’t you think of that beforehand and prepare to make sure it didn’t happen?” Am I a God? Can I see the future? No, but my patriarchal blessing promises me something close:

        “I bless you with the spirit of discernment that you will be able to discern him even as well as he camouflages his work and his agents. Our Father in Heaven will make you aware of his destructive forces so that you can be prepared and avert the pitfalls that may be placed before you.” I love that patriarch. He was inspired. It was a special day. I went back to him one time to talk about the blessing. He did a very wise thing. He read it and then said, “That’s for you to figure out.”

        I have seen that blessing literally fulfilled so many times. Sometimes at work a thought will come to me, “I should go and do …” and invariably it comes up in a meeting where someone will ask about the very thing I was inspired to go and do. I am blessed in my work. There is no doubt about it. and yes, many of the things I’m inspired to do require sacrifice. In most cases, nobody else will know or care what I have done, but I know in my heart I have prevented a future or current problem.

        I only wonder why my spiritual growth doesn’t seem to work that way, or does it? My ultimate goal is to have “spiritual experiences” where I am taught and prepared by angels what I must do to be prepared to come into the presence of the Lord: the formula to follow, the exact steps to take, the things I must “do” or the changes I must make. I am willing to sacrifice all things, or at least I think I am. But only the Lord can tell me what sacrifices are yet needed. Patience, I tell myself.

        Thanks for stopping by and adding your comment. Much appreciated.

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  3. I have not read all the posts so my comments may be addressed already but to read that it is good enough to “endure to the end” caused me to write. If “enduring to the end” was the only way then most or at least many of the scriptures would have not been written. If “enduring to the end” was all we need, then D&C 130, vs 19 has little value.

    19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

    (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 130:19)

    What good would and increase of knowledge be in this life if we just endured? I take enduring as more of an attitude that is good but not proactive, (my opinion of course)

    If there is one thing that all LDS people should KNOW is that when God speaks and does what he does, he is doing it from a Higher Law and a Lower Law perspective and that puts or as I have come to observe, forces agency so to speak. If all we know is how to “endure” no matter how it is interpreted and then acting on the believed meaning, then in my opinion we are living the Lower Law, which by the way is acceptable to him or he would not have said it.

    If the WoW (Word of Wisdom) is for the “Weakest of the Saints” and he gives us wonderful advice think about what the WoW would be for the Strongest of the Saints, who will and do call themselves Saints.

    We know that Adam and Eve where Given two Laws and could only do one or the other, they where forced (in righteousness) to decide, between the Lower Law and the Higher Law.

    The priesthood has two Laws. We are to actually Live the Law of Consecration but we do not and it is not even encouraged but we are too live it and we don;t or at least most (99.9%) of us do not.

    There are those that will endure and for them that could be their Higher Law which again is completely acceptable to Father.

    There are those that will Live a Higher Law, which will give them more Light and Knowledge and experience which will “Give them the advantage in the life to come”. This process opens up a new door for discussion which I will not walk through…

    Just my observations

    Thanks Tim!

    Tyce

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    • Hi Tyce. thanks for leaving the thoughtful comment. I believe I will go through that door. I’ve quoted that scripture many times in my teaching. Is it wrong to want to have an advantage over our brethren? Didn’t the Lord chastise some of the early brethren because they wanted to “excel” (D&C 58:41)? Is wanting greater light and knowledge the same as seeking to excel? What advantage are we talking about?

      My answer: Perhaps the advantage is understanding how things work in the spirit world, although we’re taught that such knowledge will return to us from our pre-mortal life. Perhaps the advantage is understanding how faith truly is the governing power in the eternities. I am convinced my faith is still simple, young and immature. I’m grateful for a God who delays rewards as well as delays punishments just as I’m grateful to know those punishments (from justice) can be altogether eliminated, having been met by the awful events of the atonement and repentance.

      I could go on. Yes, I want any advantage I can get. It probably means I need to be more humble. Why else would my bishop remind me of that very scripture when he called me in see how I’m doing? 1) And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble (Ether 12:27). Yes, I want to obtain an audience with the Lord. I believe I am willing to sacrifice all things he requires of me. I’m sure I have many lessons to learn about humility and service and unselfishness. Those would be major advantages.

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      • It boils down to intent, why do we want and even care about “so much the advantage”. For whatever reason “advantage” in the next life and all it implies is (to me) apparently huge, a big deal. It is a serious invitation in this life, a carrot he is putting out there for us to see what we will do with the invitation. Most of us are not aware of our intentions because of what we focus on. Our attention is what we focus on (consciousness) but our intention is what drives us (subconscious).

        This is why change for most people will really not happen because we are focused (Attention) on whatever it is but it is our intention that is the driving force and for most they do not know this.

        Our temporal existence can be far more than it is, magnified many many times, 100’s if not 1000’s of times greater that what it is. Why not take advantage of the invitation and see how much the advantage we can have in this life? If we have an advantage from a righteous position, or Vantage Point, then the only two reasons and motives or intentions that we would be focused on is serving others.

        We are here in this world to if possible, overcome sin and if possible to overcome the flesh and they are not the same. The more we become like Christ and Father it is not even about “advantage” it is about Love and doing their will and not ours.

        If we have eyes to see and ears to hear we will see and hear and feel Father giving us invitation after invitation to come unto him…

        Thanks.

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  4. Great post Tim. And no, it’s not just men.

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  5. Tim,

    I just wanted to say that I appreciate everything thing that you have said and for having this blog. Since finding your site and Denvers site, I have become more enlightened. Like you, the scriptural language is hard for me to understand. But after reading what Denver has posted and things that you have posted, I am understanding the scriptures a lot better.

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  6. Tim,

    Excellent post and appreciate your comments and those of others reference “enduring to the end.”

    Coincidentally, stumbled upon this by Nephi, while reading in the Book of Mormon the other day:

    2 Nephi 31:16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

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  7. I just read, “Come, Let Us Adore Him”, by Denver Snuffer.

    He is the author of The Second Comforter: Conversing with the Lord Through the Veil, Nephi’s Isaiah, Eighteen Verses, Ten Parables, Beloved Enos, Come Let Us Adore Him, Removing the Condemnation, Passing the Heavenly Gift, and Remembering the Covenant.

    I have also read The Second Comforter: Conversing with the Lord through the Veil.

    I saw two major points in “Come, Let Us Adore Him”. The first, his witness of Jesus Christ, the second, his feelings about the ecclesiastical hierarchy.

    I thought his witness of Christ was excellent, especially his personal witness of Gethsemane, the Crucifixion, and the Resurrection. I think most people would find this appealing since it is not coming from a church leader, and is possible for any person who puts their life in order and follows the process to come to Christ.

    I thought his feelings about the ecclesiastical hierarchy shows the foundation of his latter book, Passing the Heavenly Gift, and many of the comments that I see coming from people who agree with Denver. Chapter 11 is the strongest on these feelings. For example:

    Anytime men try to control others, invariably the endeavor for control involves stifling dissent and criticism.

    In the last chapter, Denver makes these points:

    But there will never be a true witness of Him who rejects the established authorities of His Church.

    He saw the established authorities as ordained of God, and therefore, there is a duty to support them. The Lord alone will determine when it is time to take the fullness of the Gospel from the latter-day Gentile church. (See 3 Ne. 16:10) Until He does, it is the Gentile leaders who should be sustained.

    How foolish is it, therefore, for any Latter-day Saint to be critical of the General Authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. How much better are these men than those wicked men whom the Lord sustained! How much better than the Roman rulers who Paul sustained! How little reason we have to complain.

    I enjoyed reading “Come, Let Us Adore Him”. I’m not sure what happened between it and “Passing the Heavenly Gift”. Was Denver building the foundation before he wrote “Passing the Heavenly Gift”? Did something change in Denver’s life?

    I don’t know. I don’t think Denver wanted to be excommunicated, I sense some sadness in his comments. Has the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints lost the fullness? Is the ecclesiastical leadership full of pride? Not lead by the Holy Ghost?

    Well, that is where all the debate is, right? At least I understand better where the comments come from.

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  8. “There are even those who neither believe nor know that it is possible to see the Lord in this day, and they therefore are without the personal incentive that would urge them onward in the pursuit of this consummation so devoutly desired by those with spiritual insight” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah, 586).

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