Comments on: Divine manifestations must have a purpose

By: Sunday's Best

Sunday's Best — Tue, 12 Jan 2010 23:09:16 +0000

My dad has had powerful manifestations of the spirit. On his mission, he had a number of encounters with the adversary that would raise the hair on the back of your neck. Also, not too many years ago, while in stake conference he heard a host of angels singing. He turned to the man sitting next to him and said, “Do you hear that?” The man nodded. “There are more singing than those sitting in the congregation,” he confirmed.

Lest anyone think my father fanciful, he is the most prosaic and practical of men. Although he does not talk of these experiences often, there is no question that they were real.

My own encounters with the divine have usually been through impressions, sometimes strong ones. I have been aware of angels being in the room without being able to see or hear them. I have understood the promptings of the Holy Spirit, but rarely have these promptings come to me as powerfully as a voice I could hear with my ears.

Still, whether you are someone who has seen only glimpses beyond the veil, or whether you are someone who has had a good look at the divine, there is no question that the separation between heaven and earth is very thin.

By: Tim Malone

Tim Malone — Mon, 27 Jul 2009 03:30:37 +0000

Hi Tony: The Davis Bitton article you reference is and has been one of my favorites for several years since I started reading FAIR articles. I have much respect for Brother Bitton as a Church Historian and had several of his books in my library before I lightened my load several years ago. My favorite was The Mormon Experience that he wrote with another of my favorite church historians, Leonard J. Arrington. I love his introductory comments in the article, which sums up so accurately so many of the stories I have read from disaffected Mormons, including some that have commented in the past on this blog.

“The critics would have you believe that they are disinterested pursuers of the truth. There they were, minding their own business, going about their conscientious study of Church history and–shock and dismay!–they came across this, whatever this is, that blew them away. As hurtful as it is for them, they can no longer believe in the Church and, out of love for you, they now want to help you see the light of day.” How many times have you read that story? It is similar to the idea that we need innoculation in the church to help our rising generation who are feel betrayed when they learn something about church history later in life that they should have learned on their own through personal study.

By: Tony

Tony — Mon, 27 Jul 2009 02:44:41 +0000

Brother Malone, I invite you to visit the FAIRlds website and read the article entitled “I don’t have a testimony of the history of the church.”
It is quite possibly the best thing I have seen written regarding Church history so far, and think that any member familiar with church history could get something out of it.

By: Crusty

Crusty — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 19:47:23 +0000

I like what Sharon had to say. She’s definitely not talking like a crab in a bucket. She seems to be the opposite of a crab in a bucket, encouraging everyone to seek spiritual experiences and a limitlessly open line of communication with God. Nobody is more entitled to incredible spiritual experiences than another. God is no respecter of persons…all are called. These things aren’t reserved for prophets (in title), or what reason would we have to follow the advice of a prophet, if only HE is entitled to certain rewards? One would become a prophet (in function), however, upon experiencing more of the gifts of the Spirit.

Reading Sharon’s thoughts made me laugh a little and imagine what kind of reaction she likely receives at her local ward, when she talks about things like this. They probably roll their eyes and mumble things like, “yeah, whatever, you lunatic.” No offense to Sharon. I believe you. It’s just a statement on the social/political environment of the church. We act like a bunch of crabs in a bucket, and we’re pretty satisfied with the ordinary; and, like the guy who was with you in the temple, we discourage others from seeking extraordinary experiences.

Sharon, will you e-mail me? I would love to learn more about your experiences. CrustyAmbulanceDriver@Gmail.com

By: Tim Malone

Tim Malone — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 06:16:35 +0000

Greg, that scripture is part of a chain of scriptures learned in seminary that has long been a favorite. It goes something like this:

1. John 14:21 – I will manifest myself unto him
2. D&C 38:8 – Ye shall see me and know that I am
3. D&C 50:45 – You shall hear my voice and see me
4. D&C 67:10 – You shall see me and know that I am
5. D&C 88:68 – You shall see him; for he will unveil his face
6. D&C 93:1 – Shall see my face and know that I am
7. D&C 97:16 – The pure in heart…shall see God
8. D&C 107:18-19 – To have the heavens opened…
9. D&C 110:1-4 – We saw the Lord…before us
10. Rev 1:14-15 – Voice as the sound of many waters

I would like to write about the privilege of seeing God in my next essay. Is this something that is only reserved for prophets or can you and I have this blessing? And again, back to the original question of this essay, what purpose would it serve? Is it necessary? We know that those who endure faithfully will receive eternal life. Why did Paul, Joseph Smith and Bruce R. McConkie teach so emphatically that we should seek to have our calling and election made sure? Is that something that modern prophets and apostles still teach?

By: Tim Malone

Tim Malone — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 04:33:58 +0000

Closet Doubter: Were you sitting behind me in the 6:30 session? If so, I’m sorry I did not say hello. Carol and I had just come from her oncologist and I was very concerned about her strength and stamina that evening. We probably should have gone home so she could rest but we wanted to be a part of our stake day in the temple. I’m glad we went. I got to talk to President Blickenstaff about Carol’s health.

I agree with your observation that we tend to relate a lot of faith-promoting rumors back and forth to each other. It is rare to hear one first-hand. That’s why I like what Jared has shared in his comments above where Elder Oaks teaches that there are times when it is appropriate to relate such stories. Hearing it second-hand just can’t be as powerful as hearing it from the one who experienced it. Another former stake president shared this one as I sat in council with him one time:

He related how his brother had not been very faithful while he was alive and had not received the ordinances of the temple as he should have done. Shortly after his mother and brother died, he went to the temple and did the ordinances for his bother. While officiating for his brother he felt his mother’s presence thanking him for what he was doing. As he passed through the veil, he said he saw his brother who also thanked him and then quickly disappeared.

That sounds very matter-of-fact and straight-forward as I relate it, but when he shared it with us in a Bishopric meeting, there was a lot of strong emotion and a burning witness of the spirit there. I have a lot of respect for this former Stake President, with whom I served both on the High Council and then as a High Council advisor to his ward when he was called as a Bishop again. I am grateful that he related this first-hand experience. It served to strengthen my faith as he shared it.

By: Tim Malone

Tim Malone — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 04:25:46 +0000

Thanks Jared - you just gave me the scripture and quotes I’ll be using for my spiritual thought in Bishopric meeting tomorrow morning. In fact, you’ve got me thinking so much about this idea of when it is appropriate to share personal and sacred revelatory experiences that I feel another essay coming on about the subject. I’m pondering it now and will do some additional digging tomorrow after church.

By: Jared

Jared — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 14:46:21 +0000

Tim said: I have heard it said or read that those who share sacred experiences find that the Lord no longer trusts them and that their revelatory experiences cease.

Dealing with spiritual experiences is a two sided issue. There are some experiences that should never be shared, then there are other experiences that are required to be shared.

There is also the issue of motive. Why is the spiritual experience being shared? If the motive for sharing spiritual experiences is to help others, the motive is pure, if however, the motive is prideful then that leads to difficulty and requires repentance.

A careful reading of the scriptures and listening to the apostles and prophets clearing supports what I’ve just written.

Here are a few examples:

30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?
31 And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.

(Book of Mormon | Alma 11:30 - 31)
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32 And now it came to pass that Alma began from this time forward to teach the people, and those who were with Alma at the time the angel appeared unto them, traveling round about through all the land, publishing to all the people the things which they had heard and seen, and preaching the word of God in much tribulation, being greatly persecuted by those who were unbelievers, being smitten by many of them.

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 27:32)

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48 And now, when they heard this they cast up their eyes as if to behold from whence the voice came; and behold, they saw the heavens open; and angels came down out of heaven and ministered unto them.
49 And there were about three hundred souls who saw and heard these things; and they were bidden to go forth and marvel not, neither should they doubt.
50 And it came to pass that they did go forth, and did minister unto the people, declaring throughout all the regions round about all the things which they had heard and seen, insomuch that the more part of the Lamanites were convinced of them, because of the greatness of the evidences which they had received.

(Book of Mormon | Helaman 5:48 - 50)

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61 For I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your minds in solemnity and the spirit of prayer, in bearing testimony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 84:61)

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Although we are generally counseled not to speak of sacred things like the miracles we have witnessed, there are times when the Spirit prompts us to share these experiences, sometimes even in a setting where our account will be published. Dallin H. Oaks, “Miracles,” Ensign, June 2001, 6
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It yields solid satisfaction to hear men testify of the truth of the Gospel. It is always peculiarly interesting to me to hear the Saints tell their experience. It is to me one of the best of sermons to hear men and women relate to each other how the Lord has wrought upon their understanding, and brought them into the path of truth, life, and salvation. I would rather hear men tell their own experience, and testify that Joseph was a Prophet of the Lord, and that the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and other revelations of God, are true; that they know it by the gift and power of God; that they have conversed with angels, have had the power of the Holy Ghost upon them giving them visions and revelations, than hear any other kind of preaching that ever saluted my ears. Brigham Young JD 1:90-91
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Elder George Q. Cannon, who was in the presidency of the Church at one time, said this: “I know that God lives. I know that Jesus lives; for I have seen Him. I know that this is the Church of God, and that it is founded on Jesus Christ, our Redeemer…

Brethren and sisters, I want to add to these testimonies of these prophets my testimony that I know that He lives. And I know that we may see him, and that we may be with him, and that we may enjoy his presence always if we will live the commandments of the Lord and do the things which we have been commanded by him to do and reminded by the Brethren to do. Spencer W. Kimball, “The Cause Is Just and Worthy,” Ensign, May 1974, 118

Great discussion from a great post. Thank to all.

By: Sharon LDS in Tennessee

Sharon LDS in Tennessee — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 13:10:39 +0000

Thought to mention;
These things are an accumulation of 50 years of revelation, study, discussions, prayer, Temple service, genealogy research (A HUGE field / source of visits from other side ….all with purpose for gratitude / information of dates and locations of information…actual names given for sealings / pleas for help and having their work done ,soldiers in uniform, /messengers / sounds of parties of families greeting newly sealed members to the family group / much, much, more.
EVERYTHING I have learned and had revealed to me, had a purpose and taught not only me, but in the divine ECONOMY of God, was for service to others, to lift them and help them understand ….to eleviate grieving over newly departed…to encourage genealogy testimonies…to take FEAR away from those ’seeing’ things they didn’t understand…..more part of that compound I explained.
There is NO end to the various and asundry workings of that dimension. Nor to the various and asundry ways we are gifted with Spiritual Gifts from above.
Nor to the various and asundry levels and types of the actual manifestations.
The universe is huge. God is HUGE… Wow…..Just believe. Have faith.
Never give up. God LOVES US so much. You all can get your very own answers and experirences….that are DESIGNED just FOR YOU and your necessary progress and journey in mortality. Remember He is NO respector of persons….
IF you HAVE DONE ALL you CAN DO……and prepared yourself WITH ALL YOUR MIGHT to receive and KNOW, and IF it is in your BEST interest for your progression and testimony, IF WILL HAPPEN..in GOD”S timing. PATIENCE, FAITH, TRUST Him. Wait upon the Lord. Sometimes we are just not humble enough.
LEAN NOT unto your own understanding, but acknowledge God and He will DIRECT your PATH…(in manifestations and revelation reception) as well as all else. The MOST HUMBLE member with NO calling can receive his Calling & Election / Angels / all things DIVINE and spiritual………..IF HE is willing and prepared. ANY one IF they are compliant to Eternal Diving will and Law.
??? I hope I have encouraged you out there to ‘go forth’ and DO ??????
Love to ALL

By: Sharon LDS in Tennessee

Sharon LDS in Tennessee — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 12:36:52 +0000

The subject of spiritual gifts and discerning them, as well as the reception of manifestations is not as “heebie-jeebie” as some would purport. I’ve been blessed with answers about this realm and the actions and laws that surround it after much searching scientific info, study, experimentation and practice….BUT ALL done with sincere intent, MUCH prayer, many priesthood blessings and also specifically using gifts of the Spirit given to me from God. Interaction and perception as well as understanding and application of ALL things in the spirit realm (OF GOD, NOT of the DEVIL) are under eternal law which INCLUDES the laws of science and spirutal ones. The Holy Ghost is the conductor and qualifier of much of this, but WE ARE empowered to sincerely qualify ourselves for knowledge and experience in this realm.
Worthiness, desire, LACK OF FEAR, FAITH, LOVE and PURPOSE of an eternal nature (from BOTH SIDES OF THE VEIL) are major keys in this happening to any individual. We cannot proceed or advance in spiritual gifts with ANY FEAR at all.
It blocks the transmission of good spirit and incourages bad. Open hearts, with LOVE filling them, are a major key in discerning as well. God IS LOVE and His energy is also LIGHT & TRUTH. Therefore the things of GOD are GIVEN and must be RECEIVED by one employing the SAME attributes…..TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY and COMPREHENSION.
It is a compound with layers of factors that apply differently, in differing amounts, but ALL according to the WILL and laws of God, etc. IT IS ALWAYS WITH A PURPOSE. God’s WORK is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
The GLORY of God is interlligence or truth and light. ALL true divine spiritual experiences make sense and contain truth and light. ALL fake or DARK expriences are mostly confusing, senseless, containing unmeaningful things, etc. but I will keep strictly to the LIGHT side of things.
Many exchanges or experiences of visitors or messages or strong feelings from the spirit realm happen in the Temple because those there for the most part are doing the “work” out of love and service for ancestors and the dead. LOVE is filling their hearts and is a driving factor for the activity. The exchange between the living and the dead happens mostly because it is an eternal work and promotes the important work and glory of God our Father and for his family, all us, the children of every generation.
It is also the platform for experience in revelation and education of eternal matters and personal progression. Hence, the Temple is a more frequent carrier of things of visitation, voices, revealed knowledge and understanding and significant increase in spiritual experiences, (including testimony).
WE are KEY in what CAN happen….as explained above in my comments.
What we listen to in music, watch with our eyes, say with our tongues, feel in our hearts, do with our actions…..ALL These things are a qualifying part of enlarging our capacity for the spiritual. The Word of Wisdom is helpful as well.
Because of my magnetic/electronic field imaging studies, I have on photographic film actual proof / visual images of the energy being expressed from our physical bodies, which is visible in light and colors. No time today to give details, just let me assure all of you that we are in control of who and what we are by all that we think , feel and do!
Prayer has a great impact on the amount of light we are receiving from the unseen realms, with possibility to receive pure white light and MORE truth and light from God. Anyway, diverting…….
REpentance prepares our bodies and spirits, emptying OUT of us darkness and NEGATIVE energy……getting the “instument” or receptical in a condition and state to “BE FILLED” with HOLY things of LIGHT LOVE …..more sanctified and able to have the HOly Ghost in us….as well as CAPABLE of SEEING things or HEARING things or whatever is our gift / endowment / or experience that God has determined is proper and GOOD for our progression and education towards eternal life….and immortality.
The Sacrment ordinance is VERY important to cleanse, and prepare our physical body AFTER humble REPENTANCE….notice how we must be WILLING to receive and FOLLOW CHRIST, thinking of Him in EVERY THOUGHT/
We must, for a good and righteous purpose BE WILLING TO RECEIVE anything from the spirit realm from GOD with NO FEar too.
Lots to explain.
Hope this bunch helps……it really is connected to science too! Amazing !
A TRUE compound in mortality.
Irrevocably mixing spirit laws with physical…with emotional…with mental….\
Amazing dear ones! I know it happens, I have GREAT experience with it all.
Love to ALL