A Few Notes from the Mesa Lecture


MesaHiltonI tried to do a little live-blogging to my Facebook Group as the lecture rolled forth. I couldn’t keep up. There were too many declarations coming too fast. I should not have been surprised. Carol has been telling me for months, maybe for the past year that the day would come when Denver would make these kinds of pronouncements. Carol is a prophetess. She saw this day.

Largest Audience of the Ten Lectures

The room was set up to accommodate 700 people. I looked around just as it started. It appeared to be full with only a few empty seats. I want to mention again how overwhelmed Carol and I both were at the kind remarks from everyone who introduced themselves saying they read the blog and how much they appreciated it. The Internet has brought together a very eclectic group.

The Lord has Wrested the Kingdom

Denver read D&C 84:27-28 and implied it applied to him, saying John had wrested the kingdom from the Jews. Likewise, he said the Lord had wrested authority from the First Presidency, because they consented to his excommunication – “Amen to the priesthood of that man.” That’s not a quote but was implied. By the way, this is not new. He implied this previously on his blog.

Amen to the Priesthood of that Man

Denver reminded us that the priesthood doesn’t require a church to exist. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. The church requires the priesthood. He reiterated how D&C 121:37-42 works. Power in the priesthood is NOT to control. If it is used to control or compel by virtue of dominion then the priesthood or the authority of that man is lost. Persuasion and long-suffering is required.

First Presidency Lost Their Authority

“Denver referred to another visit with The Lord on May 1st 2014. He said the Lord told him a few things about the Church. He said he was one of the “least of these” through which the Lord accomplished a great work. He said it had been completed. Section 121 applied to all Church leaders. He proclaimed the First Presidency lost their authority at the last General Conference.

Church Control of Local Leaders

He retold the story of how Elder Nelson had, contrary to scriptures, been directly involved in his excommunication. He used control and compulsion in demanding his Stake President take the disciplinary action against Denver. He said the church told his Stake President to not reveal the fact they had been involved in Denver’s excommunication – and to hide what had been done.

I Will Bless Them that Bless Thee

Denver said, “The Lord told me, ‘I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee.'” Wow. This quote was quite disturbing to Carol. She turned to me and said, “He equates himself to Joseph Smith.” Of course the scripture reference is Genesis 12:3 as well as Joseph Smith History 1:33 – that *Denver’s* name should be had for good and evil among all nations.

Denver is Not Starting a New Church

“Denver reiterated he will not start a church. He said we do not need a legal organization which can be controlled and corrupted. He did say we do need to organize as a body of believers. He is discussing that now and how it will be accomplished.” Carol called it “Denver’s Community,” but I heard him say “small groups” that would only be geographical in nature – or would they?

Seven Women to Authorize One Man

Denver is now discussing the way to organize the community. He said only women should sustain men in the priesthood. *Applause* This is amazing what we are hearing. I can’t wait to read the transcript. He added the importance of obtaining power to baptize as did Alma. He also quoted JS History 1:69 saying it remains. It takes seven women to authorize a man to minister.

Use Tithing to help the Poor and Needy

He quoted Luke 18:1-14: “I wish I had the money to place an ad in the LA Times, saying ‘If you want the gift of the Holy Ghost came to this place on this date and I will be there to baptize you. Can you imagine the difference this will make among the poor and the needy to be clothed with the gift of the Holy Ghost? We can’t change the world by legislation but we can do this.”

The Right Way to Conduct Worship Services

Denver quoted D&C 50:17-25, and said “you should not waste another three-hour block of time in nonsense each Sunday. If nothing more, get together and read the scriptures or have a prayer meeting, but don’t waste your time on stuff from Deseret or published by the LDS Church.” What a direct slam on the way we conduct church meetings each Sunday. This got applause.

False Churches with False Teachers

“Denver is quoting 2nd Nephi 28, adding comments that this is our day and describing the LDS Church, especially verse 5. Oh, my. Who is going to write this up for the Trib and how soon will it come out?” He pointed out that the LDS Church teaches this today – that the Redeemer has given his power unto men and that he no longer ministers directly to members of the Church.

They Seek deep to Hide Their Counsels

“Denver is saying verses 10 through 15 are directly referring to the Church today. He told the story of the Church coming to get journals of Neal Maxwell after he died because they held details too sensitive to be revealed. They seek to hide deep their counsels. Wow.” He quoted Isaiah 29:13-15 saying it defines the Church today and is about to be fulfilled now in our day.

You Do Not Need Buildings to Meet

“You do not need buildings to meet. Tithing is for the poor. Joseph Smith only built one building – a temple.” “Denver just announced there will eventually be a temple built. The names of those baptized will be recorded. A record will be kept and deposited once a year in the temple.” This is an amazing declaration. There is to be no hierarchy. The church is a community of believers.

Forbidding to Take Sacrament is Anti-Christ

He also said, “Anyone who forbids you to partake of the sacrament in the Lord’s way is anti-Christ.” He also said we should use wine or if necessary for medical reasons, grape juice. The church should kneel with those who bless the Sacrament.” He was very emphatic that anyone who restricts a member from taking the sacrament to compel a course of action is cursed.

Defining the True and Living Church

“This is the day at long last when God can bring to pass that which he intended to have happen before he returns. The true and living church referred to the church in Joseph Smith’s day. That day passed for a season but is now upon us again. Everything from this talk – all ten segments – is being offered to you by God. The work is beginning again.” – Denver Snuffer 9-9-14

Added to the Doctrine of Christ

“The LDS Church no longer preaches the doctrine of Christ,” Denver said, because it has added the question “Do you believe the current prophet to be the prophet of God?” He then said you / we need to take action. You need to be baptized in the correct manner.” The correct manner is to be baptized using the correct words. Believing in the current prophet is not part of the gospel.

Significance of April 2014 Conference

Per Denver, “If you were ordained in the LDS Church before April 2014 you can bless the sacrament and baptize. Otherwise, you should hold a conference among yourselves to sustain those who will minister unto you.” This is an obvious reference to the date he claims to have wrested the kingdom or authority away from the Church. What an amazing claim to make.

Take Action – Be Baptized Correctly

Referring to 3 Nephi 11:20-40, he said, “This day, is this commandment renewed in your ears, in the name of Jesus Christ. You need to be baptized in the correct way, with the correct words – having authority. However improbable or unlikely any of this may seem to you, I testify it is true. It is from The Lord. These are his words. I have delivered them faithfully.” He then left.

A Witness of the Voice of the Lord

Keith Henderson bore a short testimony he had heard the voice of The Lord declare the message that Denver had delivered was true. A sister got up and said she wanted to organize a group. A brother got up and said those without their wives should excuse themselves. I got up and left. Carol had already left after the first hour. She went to the Mesa temple to think. What a day.

Note: too many people have misunderstood why the brother got up and suggested those without their spouses might want to excuse themselves. He was simply saying his wife was home in Idaho with the kids and he wanted to discuss this with her before he proceeded with any action to organize. That’s all. It was very simple. Don’t read more into it than that.

314 Responses

  1. Sorry for the lack of links to the scriptures. This is by no means comprehensive. It is a short summary of some of the highlights of a three hour lecture. Get a copy of the CD from Doug at Publishing Hope. I’m sure Stephanie and Denver will have an edited copy of the transcript posted within a week, or as soon as they can. I wanted to get this posted for those who asked, before we leave for LA tomorrow.

    By the way, the trolls seem to be out in force on this post. I’m not going to take time to read them. Insulting one liners, condescending insults and degrading comments will be deleted. If you want to add to the post and have your comments considered, think before you write. Otherwise, don’t waste our time with drivel that will only be deleted. Thanks for thoughtful readers who contribute ideas to the dialog, even if you disagree.

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    • Wow, you people all need some professional help. Quit playing your game of “trivial pursuit” and try and get a grasp on reality. No one has heard of Mr Snuffer and most would yawn at his claims and exortations. You all must have way too much free time.

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      • Wow. Tim, there’s your first candidate for deletion! lol

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      • Annalea, Tim already removed one troll. In comparison to the first guy, Rod here is actually being quite friendly. 🙂

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      • Rod, you’re are correct. Most people have not heard of Denver Snuffer and I have probably grossly misrepresented his message. That’s why anyone interested should read his lectures, including this one when it comes out. Without that background, it’s easy to get wrapped up in the extraordinary claims. Still, I tried to report and share what I heard.

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    • So if someone thinks that Denver is deceiving hundreds of people with his cunning gneius that person a “troll.” I guess that would make me a troll. Denver has gone more and more radical since he was excommunicated. “God will curse those who curse him?” That’s just plain weird!! Wake up people, this guy is a FALSE prophet! Sure, he makes some good and interesting points; he mingles truth with lies, just as satan does. He doesn’t want to start a church but DOES want to start a community?! Honestly, what’s the difference? And you know WHO will be the community leader right? He claims to want others to follow Christ and that may well be true but HE is the defacto leader of this group!

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      • Not believing him is not the same as cursing him. If he is a false prophet you would actually be cursing him by believing him since he is to blame for your downfall, and you would be cursed for believing him.

        Personally I believe that that promise applies to all of us. God will curse those who curse any of their brothers or sisters and bless those who bless others.

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  2. I feel so happy. Yes, happy. I hope The Lord will find me worthy to help Him…do whatever He knows I can do. I feel I need to temper my glad heart though. There is much that needs to be done; much that will require the utmost from me. Difficult times are ahead. Glorious times are ahead. Thank you, Tim, for sharing some brief notes from today. I am anxious to read the transcript and listen to Denver’s voice speak all these things. I have many questions, too, but for now I just feel so much gratitude and rejoicing in my heart, as well as confirmations of all I have been thinking and feeling this year–ZION.

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    • Thanks Lori. I also feel happy. I want to make it clear I believe Denver. More than that , I have heard the voice of The Lord declare unto me what Denver has done was done under the direction of The Lord. I have seen his hand in this over the years. I expect the very act of writing this summary, even though it is a simple act of reporting on the proceedings of the day will be more than my local priesthood leaders will be able to handle. My days as a member of the LDS Church are numbered.

      I resigned myself to that fact long ago. My job these days is to love my wife with all my heart, to serve her and to use kindness and gentle persuasion. Only time will tell. I am certain we will be reading about the events of this day in the news soon. If not, someone should tell Peggy Fletcher Stack what has taken place. This is big news in Mormonism. It will be swiftly renounced and ridiculed but what can you do when The Lord had born witness to your soul that what has been done is pleasing to Him? God bless us all to stand strong.

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      • Much prayer is going to be had tonight.

        Tim, I just want your thoughts on something: what of Denver’s blog post suggesting that members not resign, but stay until forced out?

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    • Are you crazy or just naive.

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      • Are you always guilty of ad hominem fallacies or just most the time? 😛

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      • Lori sounds like another 15 year old willing to be a plural wife of Joseph Smith jr.

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      • I respectfully disagree with the polygamy comment. Lori, your thoughts completely echo mine and I can assure you that I am not “another 15 year old willing to be a plural wife of Joseph Smith jr.” 🙂

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    • I just got the Mesa CDs from Confetti Books in Spanish Fork, and listened to them, parked by the side of the road, in shock and awe, grateful that I have lived to see this day. I have been waiting 64 years for this! Agree with you Lori, difficult and glorious times are ahead!

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  3. I like your comment Lori. I’m happy too and I think it’s appropriate. Perhaps we feel somewhat like Lehi when it says that “…he did exclaim many things unto the Lord such as: Great and marvelous are thy works, O Lord God Almighty…because thou art merciful, thou wilt not suffer those who come unto thee that they shall perish!” (1 Nep 1:14).

    Lehi exclaimed this after he had seen awful things that were to befall his people. He didn’t rejoice because of the things that would befall his people, but because the Lord is merciful to those who repent and come to him. Our great labor, now, is to strive to bring as many people with us! By love, patience and persuasion.

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  4. […] [Update! It looks like the information I shared above was correct. If you want to get a more detailed summary of what Denver said today, visit Tim Malones blog https://latterdaycommentary.com/2014/09/09/a-few-notes-from-the-mesa-lecture/#comments […]

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  5. I was there too. What a day indeed!

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  6. If what Denver is saying is true, and the priesthood authority of the ldss church is gone, then shouldn’t there be more obvious signs? Wouldn’t the brethren lose the Holy Ghost? Would they still be able to preach with power that speaks to our hearts? Wouldn’t the church begin to be led by a false spirit and begin making many many more errant and obviously bad choices? Wouldn’t this conference be void of the spirit?

    I feel like I can’t just walk away from something when reading and listening to the general authorities still brings the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost. Even if I feel the spirit when I read these things how to I know it is not a false one?

    I have felt the spirit so much when I testify of Christ, and I have felt enlightened and assisted in my journey as I have read the words and followed the council of my leaders which has led me to seek the holy ghost for my guide. I have gone through major trials of my faith and tribulations and The Lord has had mercy on me every step of the way with times of enormous outpourings of the spirit.

    If what Denver is saying is true I would follow this new way with all my heart I so desperately want to have all the truth.

    I trust that god will direct me. He led me to this church. He directly answered a prayer that this was his church when I first came back to him 5 years ago. I strongly felt the confirmation of the Holy Ghost when I sustained the prophet after that. every time I have asked about this issue, the answer is for me to lift where I stand, go to the temple, read my scriptures, and uplift the people in my ward, and work on developing Christ like attributes to become a better husband and person. Learn to,exercise the priesthood,develop faith hope and charity, and respond to any promptings of the Holy Ghost.

    If god tells me to do otherwise this conference, if I feel a loss of power and authority, if I feel like the Holy Ghost is missing at the temple, if I feel like god is leading me this direction I will go. I cannot lie to myself in the least bit, the moment I do my life and harmony begins to unravel and depression destroys me so fast.

    If this is true, and next year the prophet says to gather your belongings and depart into a designated location and Denver says otherwise will you just not listen? If you pray about it and receive no answer will you side with Denver or with the lds prophet?

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    • Dustin, here’s a thought: when we pray to know if the “church” is “true”, what are we really asking? God defined what “church” means to him in D&C 10:67. So maybe when we pose that question, what he often answers is, “Yes, I’d like you to join the ranks of My church.” I’ve lost track of all the blogs and comments I read, but someone pointed out recently that “church” has always meant simply a group of believers. But somehow in our most common LDS usage, it has come to refer to the leadership of our organization. Like my mother used to say, “the church is true, even if the members aren’t.” Except that the church IS its members, so her point doesn’t make sense in my new understanding. So maybe we need to be more specific in our questions.

      I have also felt the way you have when I listened to general authorities, although I confess I’ve felt like the value of the content they give us has declined significantly in the past ten years. For me, the next few months will be pretty important. I plan to sit down and watch to as many of the general conference sessions as I can, and I expect the Lord to make manifest which of the voices are inspired by Him, and which are only posing. I’m also going with some friends to the Madrid temple in late October, and I’m looking forward to finally seeing some of the new films and spending some time communing with the Lord, if possible.

      I believe that God, in His grace, will allow us all the time we need to consider and decide where we stand. We haven’t even gotten the full transcript of this talk yet. We do have time!

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      • Hi Dustin, thanks. I have the same comments but you said it very well. I agree. Also, it is not just a feeling, it is knowledge from the Spirit. Like you, when The Lord let’s me know it’s time I’ll do as He asks. He hasn’t let me know yet, even thou I have asked. So, I wait on The Lord. 🙂

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    • My experiences go beyond warm fuzziness into the realm of physical manifestations of The Lord that go beyond my ability to comprehend or explain. I will share one of several instances that The Lord answered my direct prayer, at the risk of casting my pearls.

      1st, when I was first coming back to church 6 or so years ago after having read many pieces of anti-Mormon literature I was worried that the Book of Mormon was true, but the church had apostatized

      I asked god if it was his church one night during a moment of pressing doubt. That night awoke in a state of panic. Something and had happened, anxiety swept over me. I went up stairs to check the doors to the condo, and checked to make sure my Grandma a was still alive.

      The feeling didn’t go away. I went back to bed, and as I closed my eyes, I felt another wave of anxiety hit me, and I saw flashes of light when I closed my eyes. It was not normal anxiety it was spiritual in nature, I felt something bad was or was about to happen. I was thinking an angel may appear or something, so I said prayers.

      Finally I fell back asleep. As I awoke that morning, my radio alarm went off playing the news. I felt the spirit wash over me with the message “this is my church” as the news host began saying someone had arsoned my stake center at the exact period of time I was having the feelings of panic.

      This is but one example of how I overcame a large amount of pressing doubt.

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      • Let me assure you as one who truly has felt and heard the voice of the Spirit , that it absolutely is not merely a feeling . It is an overwhelming knowledge brought on by a physical manifestation of an appearance of a being of intelligence beyond description . There is no doubt that a superior being is physically present with you , that carries a feeling that some describe as pure love . That’s also close but not 100% accurate .

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    • Dustin,

      The spirit testifies of truth, as long as the speakers speak truth you will feel the spirit. It does not take priesthood for the spirit to testify, think of Sister Missionaries as an example of someone not holding the Priesthood and yet have people convert through feeling the spirit.

      A lot of what we feel is also felt by other non-LDS denominations who by the current definition of Priesthood in the Church do not hold the priesthood. Those denominations also show that Priesthood is not needed to have the Gifts of the Spirit since the signs promised for those who have Faith in Christ of healings, talking in tongues, etc follow them as well. So even if the Church has lost the Priesthood, there will still be small miracles happening amongst the members of the Church due to Faith.

      In “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith” you can read how the woman were laying their hands on others and healing them and how the men wanted Joseph to stop them, he told the sisters to ignore those men and continue what they were doing since God accepted and upheld those blessings – he said in effect that those men were under condemnation.

      Our focus should be on finding and following God and we have been told in a revelation that is still in our current Doctrine and Covenants that we can do that by focusing on living the principles found in the Book of Mormon – we will get closer to God by using it than by any other book.

      Personally I think that the new “Teachings” series is more of a hindrance than a help. I think we should reverse the formula, study the Book of Mormon and show how the Presidents support it rather than the other way around.

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    • Dustin, Hold fast to that which you know is true through the Holy Ghost. Many through the centuries have claimed to have visions and revelations; you can’t trust another man’s experience. If DS has really been sent from God, he will provide evidence by additional witnesses (like the 3 and 8) and additional scripture (like the BOM). DS hasn’t done one particle of this yet.

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      • Karl, re-read the last paragraph of the original post. Keith Henderson shared his witness that the voice of the Lord declared Denver has acting as the Lord’s messenger and servant in what was delivered. There are many others who can add their witness. I am one of them.

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      • Dear Tim, Yes and scores of people were certain that Harmston was a prophet called by God to start a restoration of the restoration too. If I have had a witness of the Holy Ghost that Thomas Monson has real authority (I have) and others make a conflicting witness, then I must hold true to my own revelation, without offense to those making a competing claim. What makes this different is that hearing a voice does not constitute a binding witness on anyone other than the individual hearing the voice. I can’t have a revelation that binds Tim Malone to anything. In the case of Joseph Smith, the differentiation is that the 3 witnesses for example, received independent spiritual supernatural manifestations which they then bore witness of. If Denver Snuffer has validity, then he at this point MUST bring forth some similar spiritual witnesses. Otherwise, we are left with the lone testimony of Snuffer. Even Joseph Smith could not have been taken seriously, except for the huge pile of scriptures he lays before us, AND the credible spiritual evidence laid before us in the form of actual witnesses to supernatural events surrounding the restoration. Best.

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      • Karl, can you please clarify what you believe additional witnesses and new scripture are?

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    • Hi Dustin. One other thought. The Lord can and has given many other signs in the past of key events–signs in the heavens and in the earth. I fully believe that if what Denver has spoken is true (and most here have yet to be able to read those words, despite Tim’s best effort to begin to convey some of the ideas shared), there will be signs given in both the heavens and in the earth. The more apparent ones may come, however, after folks have already had the allotted time to make up their minds and have made their choice. (as with Ammonihah being invaded, the 600 BC destruction after Lehi, the subjugation of Limhi’s people, etc., etc.) In the scriptures, whenever the Lord has sent messengers, it causes a stir among the people and is very controversial. Think of Joseph Smith in the context of his day. Or Jesus Christ in the context of his day. Or Lehi in the context of his day. Or his son, Nephi, after Lehi’s death.

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  7. I’ve always wondered what it would be like to live in Christ’s day. Or to hear, in person, the testimony of Joseph Smith. After hearing what was said today, I am not wondering anymore.

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    • amen.

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  8. Tim, we have a troll. Reminder to everyone: true priesthood operates on the basis of persuasion, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, love unfeigned, kindness, and pure knowledge (D&C 121:41-42). Therefore we can be totally comfortable rejecting comments like this out of hand, since they evidence none of these qualities.

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    • Thanks Julie. Troll comments removed.

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  9. I agree with Julie.

    A reminder to all: The Lord testified that He will bless those that bless Denver and likewise curse those that speak evil of him.

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  10. It sounds to me that Denver is the new Jim Harmston. Although, I’m not sure if people in Manti in early 90’s denounced Church leaders in such an early point. For Denver it is natural to do it, since he is already excommunicated.

    I, for one, am still feeling the Holy Ghost testifying of his Church and telling that the First Presidency and the quorum of Twelve are called by the Lord and lead this Church in his direction.

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    • Yes. Trust what the Holy Ghost has told you personally.

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  11. Tim, I hate to disappoint you and everyone I was communicating with here. I am the one who was terrified to keep searching to find out if Denver is a prophet of God. Finally I did find the peace I needed to do this search. I prayed fervently and deeply, after much reading and pondering, I received personal revelation that Denver Snuffer is not a prophet of God. I asked again, and received the same answer. I do not understand, Tim, why you received the opposite revelation. I wish the best for you and Carol. But I’m staying with the LDS church and I will probably not be communicating here again. I hope that you and your friends will eventually have a happy outcome.

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    • Sara (if you’re still around), I think it is possible for people to receive seemingly contradictory answers for reasons specific to each of them. I do agree with you that Denver is not someone who should be followed. I do feel strongly (so far) that he is someone who should be listened to, however. We wish you the best as well.

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    • Good for you. Trust the personal revelation you receive from God.

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    • Just to be clear Sara. My witness is to follow Christ, not Denver, who is simply acting as a messenger, which is what any of us can do if we have the spirit of prophecy and revelation or the testimony of Jesus.

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    • Joseph Smith taught, and lived, that we must labor to receive truth. When confronted with questions and concerns, he had to read, he had to ponder, he had to put in effort to evaluate the matter himself before the Lord would weigh in on it. He taught us to expect the same. Even in the church, the missionaries require investigators to read from the Book of Mormon before asking them to pray about it, and are frustrated when a person claims to have received revelation it is false without having opened it.

      If you have not read what Denver has written, you have not conformed to the pattern to receive an answer from God about the message (D&C 9:7-8). Therefore it seems unlikely that the spirit which answered you is God’s. Not to make you doubt God, but to make you question yourself. If you do not follow the pattern God requires, you cannot expect to receive that which requires the pattern (D&C 130:20-21). You have followed the pattern of many others, praying about “the man” without even looking into the message, putting in “no thought save it be to ask”.

      If you do not do the work, you cannot expect it is God who will answer.

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      • Hi, I have read Denver’s work and find most of it worth reading although I don’t agree with everything he espouses. I have pondered and prayed, am very familiar with answers from the Spirit and God, and unfortunately know the workings and feelings that the adversary uses. I will wait on The Lord to let me know what to do. In the mean time it will be interesting to continue to read, pray about and ponder all of this. As has been mentioned it is up to each of us to receive our own answer. It is also our responsibility to ask then wait for that answer. Don’t belittle those who do so.

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  12. There is one thing in Tim’s notes that bothers me: the reference to seven women sustaining one man. It reminded me of Isaiah 4:1–“And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.”

    I’m sure there is a connection. I just have no idea what it is, or what it means. I have to keep reminding myself to wait for the transcript rather than rely on hearsay…

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    • Good note, Julie!!
      I had to look that up. That seems extremely pertinent. The 7-Women-1-Man comment took up big cheers and approval, as it DOES seem to be addressing womens’ reproach, a movement towards equalization.

      I think the few verses following are pertinent too:

      ” 1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

      2 In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

      3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

      4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.”

      “the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are ESCAPED OF ISRAEL”? Interesting stuff.

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  13. I’ll mention I also got to attend the lecture. I haven’t had any strong direction one way or the other about Denver being a ‘Prophet’. What that means for me personally is also important to understand, in the asking. He CERTAINLY has a testimony of Christ. So too are there many ‘prophets’.

    Particularly I don’t know about his call to ‘lead’ others as what we look to for ‘THE Prophet’.

    For me personally I haven’t felt he is critical, yet. I do feel like he is helping people though. And I want to participate in the conferences he has spoken of and further feel out the spirit of such meetings and ordinances.

    His words are stirring the pot. I think this will help many to do their personal (and Community!!!) work, and come closer unto Christ.

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    • I think we need to remember that Denver is not asking us to sustain him as a “strong man”, nor is he asking us to “leave the LDS church.” What he is saying is that we need to take the Lord as our “leader” and do the things that the Lord has commanded us – repent and be baptized in the proper way, according to the word of the Lord. We need a mind-set shift to get away from our “Gentile” need for a “prophet” to “lead” us and see that we are prophets, or should be. Joseph Smith called this “living up to our privileges.” A paradigm shift can often be painful, but the Lord DID liken it to a woman taken in travail, about to give birth. Is that not the sign that was given at the very time when Denver claims the keys were wrested from the church? At passover this year we saw a blood-red moon in the belly of the virgin. In a month we will see the same sign caught in the gospel fishnet on the feast of tabernacles. To drive the point home it will be repeated next year. Now let us rejoice!

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    • Agreed! 🙂

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    • Agreed!

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    • Agreed:)

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    • Sorry, was trying to agree with Nathanial. 🙂

      Like

  14. I attended the lecture with my wife and I am not ashamed to say that Denver Snuffer is a prophet of God.

    Liked by 2 people

  15. Sure sounds like he’s organizing a church. Perhaps it is not legally organized, but what else do you call a gathering of believers who will baptize, record names and build a temple?

    Liked by 1 person

    • A community.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Was there not a reference for “We have the power of the Lord. He has given us His power.”?

        What you are now quoting is something else, but even then, I don’t think you’re paraphrase is fair. Or honest, for that matter.

        Liked by 1 person

      • One of the definitions of church is a community of believers. I think what’s really being gotten at is that there will supposedly be no hierarchy. Not sure how that will work, or how how scriptural that is.

        Liked by 1 person

  16. Thanks Tim. A much appreciated taste of what I’m sure will be some interesting listening when the CDs arrived. Thanks so much for doing this!

    Liked by 1 person

  17. Thanks Tim for attending and giving us your notes. Just reading your notes has been a great relief to and has empowered me. I’ve been in limbo for a long time, wanting to do these things already, but never quite feeling authorized and now I feel free and that it is correct. I may attend church, but it will be for my own reasons and only a temporary thing. I’m grateful my tithing can go help the poor instead of building more buildings with tables full of nonsense.

    Liked by 2 people

  18. “I am so grateful for my courageous ancestors from England and Denmark who, in the early days of the church, had the courage and spiritual insight to accept the gospel when presented to them despite the persecution they suffered for their decisions. They literally gave up all they had and crossed a vast ocean into the unknown so they could come to America and be with the main body of the church. Because of them I have always been privileged to have the gospel in my life.”

    My mother wrote this on Facebook a couple days ago, and I thought it ironic, that it is what is required of us today as well. She would not approve of they way I’m using it.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. I continue to follow the developments with DS because it is so darn interesting; compared to the turgid 3-hour blocks we suffer through each Sunday as we hear endless quotes of quote of quotes of leaders. I understand the great appeal DS has. I guess with his recent pronouncement that he has seen the Lord again that he is drawing a line in the sand: he is insisting that either you believe him of you don’t. With that in mind, and because he is comparing himself to Joseph, then let us reason together: Joseph had witnesses: Oliver Cowdery was there for Aaronic & Melchizedek Priesthood restoration. The 3 Witnesses bore independent witness of the BOM and the golden plates and other artifacts. shown by supernatural means, and the 8 witnesses shown the plates by natural means. The BOM says that one can gain personal revelation as to it’s validity through the Holy Ghost. The First Presidency saw the Kirktland Temple in vision before it was built. Many of the 12 saw visiions & revelations in Kirtland. Joseph has both primary and secondary witnesses to the work he established. What, honestly does DS have? His word only. Given the horrid job he did explaining history in PTHG, I for one, at this point, do not find his pronouncements credible. Where are his independent witnesses? Where is the new scripture? Remember my good brothers & sisters there have been SCORES of offshoots from Mormonism over the years, and so far DS is just the latest incarnation of claims that began to be made after Joseph, starting with the RLDS, through Coyle (the Dream Mine) and Harmston (in Manti). DS himself has moved from one who advocated staying in the LDS organization, but now is distancing and clearly is now competing with the Brethren. I say: search your hearts. Does your personal experience in the Church suggest that the Brethren are in a state of apostasy? My personal answer is no: because that has been my personal revelation by the Holy Ghost. I am the first to admit that administratively, doctrinally and historically there are a great number of problems in the church. Imperfect men govern and they can be engaged in bad behavior at times. This does not invalidate the legitimate authority that they hold to direct the Kingdom. About 2 years ago, my brother told me: “you wait, soon it will be the Church of Denver Snuffer,” I guess my brother was a prophet on that one. Well, hold on for the ride, this is getting more interesting all the time. God bless us all.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Karl – There was a wild man who wore a “raiment of camel’s hair” and fed himself upon locusts and honey. He came unheralded and without witness except one that I know of. That witness said of him: “Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet…”. How should we judge a man to be a prophet or not?

      Like

    • How soon till someone adds Denver’s picture to here?

      Like

  20. Thank you, Tim, for recording and sharing your comments and thoughts and for setting a good example for us. I do believe that your leaders will not be able to ignore the impact Denver has and will have in your life.

    Liked by 2 people

  21. Tim, thank you as always for being honest. Brother Snuffer lost me at Ephraim when he jealously derided “Spencer” for something he hadn’t researched very well. Our Lord can, did and will reveal himself any way he wants on the road to Emmaus, in a garden outside a missionary discussion at a trailer in Arizona, to the School of Prophets in a business suit or in the restored Conference Center with a suit and red tie from Penney’s. Brother Snuffer has a prodigious mind and absorbs the best ideas into his thinking from all around Mormondom. When he speaks it is like Joseph. I don’t blame Snuffer because thanks to our overreaching church leaders we have a full-blown schism on our hands the likes of which I didn’t think could repeat itself. The credible and decent Jesse Strang is back among the Latter-day Saints in spirit. I predict the new “community” will become widespread and will waste the time of a lot of good people. Our time is wasted enough every Sunday, but this will be worse in the long run. The Lord will send us messengers and the Servant will be revealed soon. It’s not time yet for the Marvelous Work to begin, but it won’t be long. I hope this doesn’t get me kicked out of Tim’s community. With love etc.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Did he jealously deride, or simply correct a popular misunderstanding?

      Liked by 1 person

      • I probably should not have used the word “jealously.” Denver is not a solid researcher in my opinion. He appears to take bits a pieces from many scholars and then wraps those ideas into his own thoughts which is what we all do. Mr Snuffer talks with authority and surety. Many of us, thus, are caught in the enthusiasm of our time because we want more stimulation. We know things are not right and we feel anxious. The Lord asks us to endure the end for a reason and to wait upon him. I want to follow a living prophet, but there is not one to follow and I feel bereft just like the rest of everyone in Tim’s family. Denver did not clarify the Lord’s coming, he made it more mysterious in his Ephraim talk by casting doubt on the “Spencer” vision. The Lord can and did and will appear to ordinary people in different ways which are appropriate for the time of His appearing. “Spencer’s” vision of a Christ leading His church from the cleaned up Conference Center is consistent with other pre-Zion testimonies of Him and Denver should not have said what he said if he had thought about it. I will wait for the Servant. I will wait upon the Lord. I will pray for my church. It’s not time yet for the Marvelous Work to commence, but it’s soon.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Sincerely and not derisively, how do you KNOW?

      And, could you please give a page reference and/or quote of DS deriding “Spencer” as you said.

      Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Ephraim Transcript, page 69.

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  22. YES! The storm is coming guys, and at last we are allowed to do something about it. I had a dream about this just last night. I’ve been praying for this for years. Time to get the stone rolling again! Thanks for sharing, Tim. I can’t wait to read the lecture when it becomes available. Ah, I’m so excited 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  23. The thing I don’t understand here is Denver’s claim that the church lost its priesthood in April 2014. In his book Passing The Heavenly Gift, he seems to have argued that the church hasn’t had priesthood power since the Nauvoo period, and yet despite this, the church still has full authority to perform all its ordinances because they are simply invitations, not the real thing. It seems Denver has claimed the church lost the priesthood in 1844, then again in 2014. Which one is it?

    Liked by 1 person

    • There’s a difference between the “fulness” of the priesthood, and a portion of the priesthood.

      Liked by 1 person

    • I agree with Snuffer that the fullness of the priesthood was taken from us. In section 84 it lays out that the lesser law of carnal commandments was given to the children because of their disobedience and as a result god did not come to dwell with them. The lesser priesthood which is the administering of angles and the gospel of repentance is what was left.

      If Denver is correct, then now that lesser priesthood has been revoked…

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  24. You are a coward and tyrant for censoring sincere commenters.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Sorry, James. It was early this morning when I deleted a few comments that seemed offensive and off-topic. I was in a hurry to get on the road for the long drive home. Were those yours? Please forgive me.

      Like

    • @ James: Yolo bro. This is Tim’s blog, what he says goes. Ugh, Tim Malone is anything but a coward or tyrant.

      Liked by 1 person

  25. My understanding is he meant what was left of the Aaronic Priesthood authority held by the leaders of the Church. John the Baptist wrested the keys of the kingdom and of the Aaronic Priesthood from the Jewish leaders, leaving them bereft of any priesthood authority whatsoever. In other words, I believe he was saying that the Church lost the MP prior to Joseph’s death, and they just lost the AP in April 2014 due to abuse and specifically by sustaining the presiding brethren who had Amen’d their AP authority in the process of excommunicating him, a true servant/witness of the Lord. That’s my understanding of what he taught. Feel free to correct.

    Liked by 1 person

  26. I think we should be clear: it is DS who is defining and now crossing the line. From support for the Brethren, to claiming their authority was incomplete, to now stating the Brethren have lost their authority and he has it. Think this through: it is one thing for a brother to point out the imperfections of the church and the leaders (such as what Nibley did); it is quite another to claim (either implicitly or explicitly) as DS is now stating that the Brethren are devoid of authority. DS is putting forth the claim that the Brethren and hence the entire Church are in apostasy. If this is true, then the Lord will bring forth indisputable evidence of this calling. I, for one, will wait patiently for DS to bring forth this evidence. If he presents some actual evidence, then I will consider it. I think this must be some extraordinary spiritual evidence, similar to the way the Lord brought it forth in the time of Joseph Smith. DS has defined the challenge: now he must deliver. Whether he claims the title or not, DS is certainly claiming that he is a true prophet, and this is now a completing claim to Pres Monson. I will watch the unfolding events with interest, but I refuse to be caught in the vortex or claims and counterclaims about DS. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh, and that includes DS. Those of you, including Tim, who are considering putting your membership at risk, please don’t do so unless and until you receive an actual revelation through the Holy Ghost to do so; and even there be cautious because the Adversary is a powerful imitator and so try to be certain of the voice you hear.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. It’s all crazy. He didn’t see “The Lord” any more than Joseph did. And he knows it. But he knows he can get adoring followers and money by saying this. What does he have to lose? His membership in a church he obviously doesn’t believe in? He’s aware that people are leaving the church in droves, and if not leaving, are certainly disaffected. He is simply creating a product that people who long for the “good old days” of Mormon “prophesying” will latch on to. Looks like there are a few of those here.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Money? What money? The lectures were free to attend. He paid the expenses out of his own pocket. The money from the CDs go to the man who makes them, to cover his costs. Soon the audio will be free as well.

      Like

  28. Tim, people who are persuaded by DS arguments are perishing for lack of vision and understanding. If they understood the great and marvelous work Jesus said the Father would work for his sake, this wouldn’t be happening. A house divided against itself cannot stand, and you can rest assured it won’t.

    When you have a moment of peace and quiet, read again the parable of D&C 101, and then Martha Knowlton’s recording of Joseph’s July 19th, 1840, sermon on it. That sermon is proof that the parable wasn’t meant to apply to the saint’s experience in MO in the 1830s, as much as it was for our day.

    The Twelve (trees) will be broken down, the servants of the Lord will awaken from their slumber and flee away in fright, as their works are destroyed, but it won’t be because of DS. This is much bigger than he is, much, much bigger.

    I don’t care what he claims. The saints are not obligated to listen to him, as someone’s mother clearly explained above.

    Liked by 2 people

  29. This is an amazing comment by Sam above. Thank you!!

    “A paradigm shift can often be painful, but the Lord DID liken it to a woman taken in travail, about to give birth. Is that not the sign that was given at the very time when Denver claims the keys were wrested from the church? At passover this year we saw a blood-red moon in the belly of the virgin. In a month we will see the same sign caught in the gospel fishnet on the feast of tabernacles. To drive the point home it will be repeated next year. Now let us rejoice!”

    So are these signs in the heavens evidence of God’s approval of what Denver has said? Or do you all think they are evidence of something else?? I know there are other things being prophesied… like what Julie Rowe has said.

    Liked by 1 person

    • There was a great sign the day before, a gigantic rain / thunder storm. Such always accompanies “new” revelation see Joel 2:23 and more appropriately Hosea 6:3, Psalms 68:9, 72:6, etc. I grew up with “When the saints meet, the heavens weep.” The earth bears testimony to new revelation at the command of the Lord.

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      • Thank you Ed!

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  30. Tim,
    I know this quote from JS must be well-known to this group, but why is it not accepted?

    “I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives. The principle is as correct as the one that Jesus put forth in saying that he who seeketh a sign is an adulterous person; and that principle is eternal, undeviating, and firm as the pillars of heaven; for whenever you see a man seeking after a sign, you may set it down that he is an adulterous man.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 156-157)

    Did your prophetess know what she knew, by this key?

    Liked by 1 person

    • http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/history-hearsay-and-heresy-part-3.html

      Liked by 2 people

      • Hmmm. Can hearsay ever be true?

        Liked by 2 people

      • This is amazing. I’m so glad you shared it. 🙂

        Like

  31. September 10, 2014 – Wednesday
    I will not speak against Denver – I have received so much truth that is undeniable in the words he has written and spoken up to this point, particularly from the scriptures and the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith. But I’ll be totally honest, yesterday was hard to hear. My wife, who has been tolerant but not “on board” with all of this, sat next to me at the Mesa/10th talk. She was unprepared for the bombs that Denver dropped, just summarizing some of the big ones as I heard or understood them:

    > LDS Church leadership/“key holders” were bereft of priesthood authority as of April 2014 – because the voting membership sustained the 15 Apostles and other presiding brethren who had a hand in or ratified Denver’s excommunication from September 2013; DS declaring basically a wresting of the keys like unto John the Baptist from the Jewish leaders of his day. Denver spoke about this in terms of the pattern of restoration, apostasy, and remnants throughout history.
    > Denver also implied (pretty strongly in my opinion) that he was “the servant” mentioned in 3 Nephi 21:9-11 (and presumably Jacob 5:57). Would his “marring” have been his excommunication or something future?
    > Organizing into a community of believers with sustaining (only women, at least 7, can vote to sustain men, and must include the man’s wife if he is married), baptizing/rebaptizing, priesthood conferral, and records kept (a non-legal-entity “church”), and eventually a temple and city. He made it very clear this was about building and establishing Zion. He softened the blow by saying anyone could continue to serve in the LDS Church, but it is plain to see that this would not be tolerated. All of these extra-LDS activities would have to be concealed and if discovered would have to be denounced or excommunication for apostasy would swiftly follow. It would not surprise me if there will now be a rather diligent “witch hunt” initiated to discover anyone who is a party to this community. If the Church still has and uses the SCMC, they will have a hard time staying undercover because they will need to staff up to facilitate this massive inquisition. This is just speculation.
    > Renewing the ordinances of baptism, and everyone should be rebaptized, using the exact language in 3 Nephi 11:24-25, as well as the sacrament using wine (or grape juice if necessary) and everyone kneeling. Inviting all to come and repent and be baptized in this manner. Forbid none from partaking of the sacrament (who has been baptized, is what I read into it, 3 Nephi 18:28-32).
    > All the potential issues of our time we’ve contemplated would cause us to leave the LDS church are in the wings, in process, as we speak. What came to mind for me were: ordaining women to the priesthood and approving and even solemnizing gay marriages particularly in our temples (abomination of desolation). It sounded to me like he said the LDS Church, particularly its leaders, would be overthrown and maybe even destroyed. This was phrased very much like prophecy to me.
    > The world is on the cusp of major social, political, economic, and military upheaval.

    I’ll stop there, but you get the idea. This is just how I heard it as I was sitting there with my head spinning. This was momentous stuff, historic and prophetic, if it is true, utterly heretical and apostate if false. I’ve already read many comparisons of Denver on various blogs and forums to pretenders like Jim Harmston and the TLC (True and Living Church) movement – which I think have been validated as false prophets, e.g. Harmston’s failed prophecy that Christ would appear in Manti to the TLC and inaugurate the Terrestrial/Millennium on March 25, 2000. While there are similarities, there are many unique things about Denver and his message which I don’t think are similar. But the bottom line is: it doesn’t matter what I think. What matters is the Lord’s truth. What is true?

    At this point, at this crossroads, with the declarations and prophecies he has made, Denver Snuffer is either a true prophet/servant of the Lord OR one of the cleverest and most Joseph-Smith-like pretenders/charlatans since 1844. I don’t think he can be taken in any other way now. I realize, from a TBM (True Blue Mormon or Traditional Believing Mormon) or FTP/FTB (Follow the Prophet/Follow the Brethren, meaning the LDS Church President and Apostles, etc.) LDS/Mormon perspective this is a gross, unbelievable, not just improbable but impossible, not just heretical but utterly apostate consideration – the notion cannot even be entertained, let alone the question asked sincerely, “is this true?” The answer by default, by dogma, is that this is all complete delusion/deception. But my parents were converts to the Church and left their heritage faiths to join this one. It was a paradigm shift with sacrifices to follow God. There is a pattern to joining the great net. Is there a pattern to being picked out of the great net by the angels?

    If DS is a true prophet/servant, then the Lord will vindicate his words and there will be works and signs following. He said himself there is no need to proceed in haste or by flight. As for me and my house, we will choose the Lord. We will exercise faith that He will manifest the truth unto us by the power of the Holy Ghost and by the ministry of angels and by His own voice. My wife and I don’t KNOW which DS is: true prophet/servant or false prophet/deceiver, but we are going to find out from the Source of Truth, and that’s what we want, the truth. There is a fork in the road here with the 10th talk, and we will not take another step without knowing the truth of the matter. If any of us lack wisdom, let us ask of God, who gives to all liberally and does not upbraid, and it will be given us, if we ask in faith nothing wavering. You can’t learn the truth about something which you have already dismissed. You must be open and childlike in faith, asking, seeking, knocking. Can we as members be trusted to pray/ask and receive and recognize and act on the answer from God? It’s how we join this Church in the first place or gain a real testimony of things.

    Some of you have claimed you KNOW he is false, and others of you have claimed you KNOW he is true. You can’t both be right. Denver Snuffer is either a servant of the Lord God or he is a false prophet. Some of us may wait to see more fruit. But all of us should be careful not to misjudge and call that which is of God, of the devil, or vice-versa.

    Liked by 4 people

    • This is basically where I am right now. Thanks for putting it so plainly.

      Liked by 1 person

    • An excellent reply. I am with you in saying that DS has come up with incredible insights in his books, and he has purported many things that coincide and agree with my own spiritual experiences that indicate to me that he has indeed received incredible spiritual experiences. In this, I don’t think he is a false prophet. His impact thus far has been inherently good.

      However, what he has concluded in this lecture cannot be the true and correct way. If they truly did forfeit their priesthood this past April for the reasons DS gave, then they actually lost their priesthood long ago, as they have done much worse. This, to me, means that he has let anger or resentment for his excommunication get the best of him to the point of being overly bold and contradicting his past beliefs.

      It’s interesting to see that one who assumedly had his calling and election made sure could be led astray. Either he didn’t actually receive such a thing, or the traditional understanding of this experience is not fully correct.

      Liked by 1 person

      • With respect to your comment that they have done ” much worse” I understand your perspective but suspect it is too narrow. What worse can the watchmen in the vineyard do than forcibly expel the owners rightful representative, embezzle the fruit and then claim ownership of the vineyard themselves. Nothing in the sordid history of the LDS church holds a candle theologically to this.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Geoff: You have expressed just what I’m feeling. I will take my time, study and pray. I am anxious to read the full text, and with caution, see how this unfolds.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Amen to that. Thanks.

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    • Sorry, my phone is wacky today. I was saying Amen to Geof’s comment. 🙂

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    • This is the second time I have read your post in full. Very perspicacious and apropos. Thank you for distilling the central issues so precisely.

      Like

  32. I’m with Snuffer until he starts building malls. When I hear him say “let’s go shopping,” I’m gone.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Bill, you always make me laugh!

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  33. So, let’s just say DS is not the true servant.

    But when the true servant comes, people could and would say exactly the same things about his claims. The true servant is not going to be popular. No matter who he is. For heaven’s sake, he’s going to be physically marred, probably because of outrageous claims.

    Exciting times. It’s either truth or fiction. Now to choose wisely.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I absolutely agree!

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  34. Could it be possible that denver snuffer has the priesthood and the LDS church still has it? After all how many people in Denver’s ex-communication were actually involved? I doubt thomas s monson even knew much about it. What did he personally do to lose his priesthood. I highly doubt God told him to stop denver snuffers ex communication.
    If denver thinks every person in the LDS church lost their priesthood when most people don’t even know the dudes name he is off his rocker. Sure he is teaching some truth and I am sure he has the priesthood but that doesn’t mean grandpa Jim lost his…

    Liked by 1 person

    • You need to listen to the audio or read the transcript. That is not what he is saying. He is saying that when his stake president and the high council voted unanimously to excommunicate him, an innocent man, they lost their priesthood (see D&C 121 “Amen to the priesthood of that man”). After that, Denver sent a letter of appeal to the first presidency, outlining everything and they upheld the excommunication. So when the general authorities voted to uphold them at the last conference, they lost their priesthood as well. I’m probably not saying it exactly how Denver said it, but that is basically how it goes. He is not saying that grandpa Jim and everyone else in the church lost their priesthood. Quite the opposite. He is saying, priesthood can exist without a church. John the Baptist restored the priesthood before the church was restored. He is asking for worthy priesthood holders to form a community of believers so that we can retain the priesthood. If someone was ordained prior to the last general conference, then their priesthood is still intact, providing they are worthy of it and do not exercise unrighteous dominion, control, etc.

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    • Remember Paul and how he was called? His call was completely independent from the other apostles and the established church. He was given his calling and priesthood directly from God. And it appears the first time he met Peter he chastised him so apparently Paul didn’t feel like he needed to follow anybody but God. By the way, this isn’t an argument for DS, just pointing out there is precedence for God doing his work outside established and conventional lines.

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      • Even Saul was sent to Ananias – an established local leader – to begin his conversion.

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  35. I’ve wanted a rebaptism for some time now, but don’t have the foggiest idea where to find someone willing to oblige. Family is all super-mega-Doppler-TBM-to-the-max. Anyone along the wasatch front in a similar predicament? If we can find a place with sufficient water to meet I’d be glad to return the favor.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Denver is saying that we should all be rebaptized. 🙂 So find others in this “community” and have it done. He said it should be recorded, etc. and the names deposited into the temple after it is built.

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      • I’m trying… but struggling to find anyone like minded in person. Online it’s no problem at all – I’m quite sure folks like Tim or Rock would be happy to assist. But literally everyone in my non-online social circle is either Ultra-TBM or totally non-religious (far more of the 1st variety). Maybe the answer’s something totally obvious that I’ve overlooked or uninformed about; but I haven’t the faintest trace of an idea of where to go to expand this social circle of mine to include more people of similar religious disposition. Is there a forum somewhere I should be visiting, or something? Failing that I seem to remember an open invitation from Rock on his blog a while back… maybe it’s time to take a family vacation to California.

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      • Hail Guest
        We ask not what thou art:
        If friend –
        we greet thee hand and heart
        If stranger –
        such no longer be
        If foe –
        our love shall conquer thee.

        Small home, great joy!
        Beginning September 21, 2014
        Sunday prayer meeting/scripture study
        at our home in Orem, Utah
        1:00 – 4:00pm
        Love is spoken here.
        Ron and Lynne McKinley
        (801) 367-0538

        Like

    • Xeng – You sound like an awesome person. Only an awesome person could come up with “super-mega-Doppler-TBM-to-the-max”. If this is the right thing and the right timing, I think God will provide the community that you’re seeking. I do feel like it’s time to start gathering in our various locations in small groups to speak concerning the welfare of our souls. I wasn’t at the 10th talk, but based on the little bits and pieces I’ve heard from others, this all feels consistent with feelings that I’ve already been having. I pray God to bless you.

      Like

      • Thanks Ryan. That means a lot. And Ron & Lynne, I’ll be in touch soon; thanks for reaching out!

        Like

    • Yes, there is a forum where others of a like mind are gathered. Check out a subforum to a forum called LDSFF, called Heavenly Gift. HG is private, but you can apply easily.

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  36. It appears DS’s claim is that the Church is no longer led by the Priesthood, not that every holder is bereft of it as I summarized. Perhaps he needs to further clarify this:

    “My excommunication was an abuse of authority. Therefore as soon as the decision was made, the Lord terminated the priesthood authority of the Stake Presidency and every member of the High Council who sustained the decision, which was unanimous.

    Thereafter, I appealed to the first presidency, outlining the involvement of the Twelve and the Seventy. The appeal gave notice to them all. The appeal was summarily denied.

    Last general conference, the entire First Presidency, Twelve, Seventy, all other General Authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in casting me out of the church. At that moment the Lord ended all claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to claim it is led by the Priesthood. they have NOT practiced what he requires. The Lord has brought about his purposes. This has been in his heart all along.”

    Liked by 1 person

    • I also noticed Denver’s anger at the being-cast-out thing. And hey, a bro is allowed to be angry.

      I presume that revelation is usu. more guided in a childlike state of neutrality, love and forgiveness. So I had to notice how his anger seemed strongest around this item.

      This pivotal claim, that by this action of excommunicating him and denying his appeal, the Priesthood of the church was now gone and we need a different order to receive these blessings now.

      It could be true revelation (It could even be binding revelation!), signs of the times and crazy things. And maybe revelation can be received in anger too. I am as of yet unresolved as to how much this revelation is biased by Denver’s pain of rejection from the church.

      I have no idea! Not my call to judge. The Lord uses us for and in spite of our qualities.

      But these are all just mind-thought-stuffs. I’d like to feel out the fruits. If re-baptism and sustaining by communities bears Spiritual fruit, I’m way excited for it.

      Liked by 1 person

  37. I’m going to go out on a limb and assume you are feeling what i feel. I am DEPRESSED (and I am not prone to being depressed)! I read Rock Waterman’s book in one night after a long day of programming and couldn’t put it down. I shared what I learned with my friends and wham-o the boo birds came out in force to correct me and set me straight. This has got to be what Brother Malone is feeling. Ughh…yuck…and none of this is what we want. We want a church we can love again. We want leaders whom we love for their righteousness. I want to follow a living prophet who has favor with the Lord and who receives regular revelations for us and in our behalf so we will know what is just ahead. The heavy pendulum favoring the common-sense managers who suppress what is unique about us has over-corrected and it’s time for change. One thing about Denver Snuffer is his ability to tune into our distress. He expounds on what we want to know and hear and he is articulate (interesting and generous). Every point Brother Malone shared (except the unique 7 woman idea) has already gone through my head in recent months and it’s to the point where I wonder if my primary source of influence is the Holy Spirit or the evil spirit. Whatever it is I am depressed and I want relief. So…I go to church. I endure boring sacrament meetings. I pay my tithing. I teach my class. I hear rehashed conference talks. I get lectured on why the correlated curriculum is so beneficial to other nations which are not here in zion. I make comments in 3rd hour. I have members of the high priest group bear testimony regarding my comments that it is best to follow the brethren. Then I repeat it again on the next Sunday.

    So I don’t know what I will do, but I am casting about with aimless worry regarding something I can’t quite grasp. What is happening?

    Liked by 3 people

    • Salemmanofthecloth, I read your comment and the phrase “I want to follow a living prophet who has favor with the Lord who receives regular revelation for us” stuck out like a sore thumb. I believe that the time is now past for us to have a living prophet to follow–we cannot schluff the responsibility onto anyone else anymore. Hasn’t our experience until now taught us that it is a bad idea to follow men? Now is the time that we must all become living prophets, and all be in favor with the Lord. I don’t see any other way.

      Liked by 2 people

    • I have been feeling the same way…. DEPRESSED… I have decided not to share anything that I have learned outside this group. It know this is a time for me to “Be Still” and quietly sort this thing out.

      I feel like Denver’s last talks has been like a bomb going off and I don’t feel comfortable with all that was said. I need to quiet my soul so I can hear what the Lord wants me to do. Right now, I feel confusion. I am not ready to leave the main body of the church to go off and do something weird.

      I’m not ready to give up my Temple recommend, where the Temple is the only place I feel calm. The last time I went, I spent a long time in the Celestial room pondering and praying. I left with a “Flat” feeling still not knowing whether to turn to the left or right. However, my upset was diminished and I felt I was to “Be Still” and I have been. And that was before this bomb dropped.

      Before I make any moves, one way or another, I will read the transcript and then take it to the Lord again.

      And like you… I went to Church… and was bored out of my wits. The RS lesson was so bad I had nearly left… but out of just sheer respect for the teacher… I did not.

      After reading Denver’s talks and books, I will never be the same whether I embrace this last message or not. If nothing more… he has lead me to read the scriptures more carefully and open minded.

      We just need to hold on and not jump into anything. There is plenty of time to decided what each of us are going to do.

      Blessings to all.

      Liked by 1 person

    • I think Julie’s comment is a good one.

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  38. Geoff

    That is what I am saying. He completely contradicts himself. He says on one hand if we received ordinances etc before such and such date they were fine, but then says the church isn’t led by the priesthood any more. He almost acted like everyone lost their priesthood, but even if everyone he specifically mentioned lost the priesthood, then that is only a handful of people in the entire church. If he believes the doctrine and covenants, then the quorum of the seventy has equal power and authority even if the entire quorum of the 12 lost their priesthood.
    Then he has used a quote to say that even if one elder had the priesthood they could start up the church. So that means every worthy priesthood holder in the church has just as much authority as him. So why would anyone need to leave the church?
    I prayed and received confirmation that the church still has the priesthood and so does he. Big deal. I even believe other LDS offshoots had priesthood and still do. Leaving the church to do whatever Denver says would not lead a man closer to God than staying in the church. It is still based on our personal relationship with God and that will never change. denver is pissed at the church and wants people out. He knows he isn’t hurting anyone if they leave but he is acting like somehow the church was damned for excommunicating one man wrongfully. Anyone with a brain knows the church (with the knowledge of all of the apostles) have excommunicated people wrongfully in the past. John Koyle should have not been ex-ed for one example. His argument doesn’t hole water but I don’t fault anyone for following him if it helps their relationship with Christ.

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    • Minority, I don’t disagree with you, but I think it’s possible that all the apparent contradictions might not be quite as disqualifying or indicting as they seem on the surface. If I heard and understood correctly, I believe DS is claiming to be “the servant” mentioned in 3 Nephi 21:7-9 and Jacob. He also quoted D&C 84:27-28 in reference to John the Baptist being raised up to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews. So this would put this in the realm of forordination and the purposes and work of the Father, which would make the case special, not just a regular unjust excommunication. Notice his actual statements focus on the leaders and their priesthood authority abuse, not the members or lay priesthood holders – and that they stem from D&C 121, “Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man…”, etc. These are warnings and consequences that we do not often seriously consider in our regular church curriculum.

      Do you think the Jews realized that John the Baptist had wrested the keys of the kingdom from them? Do you think they even noticed? I think I remember DS posing those very questions in the lecture. In my mind, I don’t think they even realized it. What happens on the spiritual plane does not necessarily have to be apparent on the physical. How obscure was John the Baptist? Did all the leaders of the Jews know him or acknowledge him? Probably they just thought he was a crackpot rogue that the poor class considered some kind of wild man prophet, baptizing in the wilderness. I’m just guessing. My point is there are two sides to almost every coin. DS fits the pattern of both a genuine prophet and a pretender. It’s like the false messiahs and the true messiah. What’s the difference? They both come claiming the same things. The difference is in the details and mostly in whether God is the author of it. Both the true and the false come claiming authority and divine commission. The truly false are inspired by supernatural but false sources, like the magicians of Egypt. The true come clothed with the authority of God.

      Even signs can be interpreted both ways. Here’s a real-life example: the day before DS’s talk, the Phoenix area received more rain than it had in nearly 100 years. Is that a coincidence? Is that a sign? If it’s a sign, what does it signify? If a positive sign, one might interpret it as a flood of revelation (like D&C 121:33) and a cleansing or even a foreshadowing of the doctrine of Christ and of baptism/rebaptism which DS addressed in his talk. If negative, well it could be interpreted as some kind of destructive warning. Water gives life and cleanses and water destroys. If the flood was a sign from Heaven, how would we know what it means? How would we even notice? How about the Super-Blood Moon on the night of his talk? What did it symbolize? Was it a sign from Heaven? What did it mean? Only the Lord can tell us these things.

      I don’t KNOW, but I’m asking and I intend to learn the truth of the matter, one way or the other. Seek, ask, knock, of God.

      Liked by 2 people

  39. Analysis by sfort:

    For those who keep asking whether or not DS is a prophet are going on the wrong track. It is the words of DS that have to be confirmed by the Almighty God. Whether or not he is a prophet is irrelevant. Did the Zoramites ask whether Alma was a prophet? Did the people of Ammon ask whether or not Ammon was a prophet? It is the words that matter. Did the people following Alma follow because he was a false priest and they decided he was a prophet? No, no and no.

    When the scriptures say that all have gone astray except the few who are the humble followers of Christ…how much is a few; do you claim to know? How many of you can claim that it is not yet time but it is coming? Please let me know when it comes, will you. I will be waiting for your call. When reality strikes and you are left with getting off the fence, have you ever experienced such a dramatic decision? None of us have; therefore, no one can say yea or nay to the events transpiring. We have no experience. So, all of you who claim that you and the Spirit are good buddies, please come out and direct this episode for us. We are all going to move through this the same way. The confirmation has to be direct and unmistakeable. You can’t assume or follow or go along with the crowd or take the view of someone from the outside and believe them. It will have to be much fasting and prayer. If you claim to know before that, then it is serendipity for you.

    So tell me…just how in our reality terms, is the call to come from the Lord opposite of Nephi’s prophecy suppose to happen? I daresay none of you know. These are perilous times and salvation is a serious business. Take care with your suppositions. 14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

    15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

    16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

    You can’t scripture your way in or out of this. I wish you all the best.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Well said, sfort. I appreciate (and embrace) your perspective.

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  40. Sorry for not participating in the dialog during the day. Carol and I spent a leisurely day driving home from Mesa to Camarillo. We had lots of windshield time to discuss what we heard and what might happen next and how we would participate – together or separately.

    Someone asked – either in the comments above (Update: It was Jaxon), or on the Facebook group or on LDSFF or one of the other Snuffer lists – if Denver’s advice to stay active in your ward and serve there is now null and void.

    This is based on his comments yesterday to 1) get baptized in the proper way, 2) stop wasting time in the three-hour blocks, and 3) start participating in small, local groups to partake of the sacrament and minister to one another in gospel study and prayer.

    In other words, is he now advocating we resign in anticipation of excommunication? Because formally joining another church – if independent groups are considered a church – is one of the items listed in the handbook under when a disciplinary council MUST be held.

    Any opinions or advice? For those who intend to be baptized again and participate in the small groups concept Denver is advocating in order to partake of the sacrament and use tithing to help the poor, what say ye?

    Liked by 1 person

    • I’ve been fairly pro-Denver through these lectures, and I still want to read the transcript for myself, but just because he isn’t legally incorporating an organization, it seems to me he is totally going back on his word to not start another Church. (I mean records will be kept, groups organized, meetings held, ordinances performed, a temple built, etc.)

      If he is the real servant, why oh why couldn’t the Lord have chosen a medical doctor or a school teacher or a fireman instead of a lawyer?

      Liked by 1 person

      • Sue,

        Please look at the word “church” and how it came into the KJV bible. It is the translation from Greek meaning “assembly”. After the Catholic church got a hold of it, church ended up as the word, and they changed it to organization and structure. Did John the Baptist start a church? Did Alma start a church? Assemblies are all that the humble followers of Christ arranged. Such is the case here. Were John the Baptist’s baptisms recorded? I can’t say. We must stop using the term improperly and start understanding what “and they shall be my people” means. When change is to come, it seems that all seem to have a precognition what it will be. I dare say none of us know. Have faith, prove all things, hold fast that which is good.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Alma’s assemblies are called “churches” in the Book of Mormon. See Mosiah 25:21.

        Denver of all people would know that his readers would be familiar with that definition.

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      • Sue, I love that the Lord often calls those who the world has little regard for. Like Matthew (writer of the Gospel, etc.) who was a publican. Or Paul, a Roman persecutor of the church. Or Joseph Smith, a simple farm boy and “treasure seeker”. Or Alma the younger, Amos, Sampson, Enoch the wild man, etc. In fact, I love that one of Denver’s parables in “Ten Parables” discusses exactly this subject. How it is that we here on earth commonly find the Lord’s servants and even the Lord’s actions Himself to be unacceptable. True messengers rightly challenge our conceptions & notions of how God operates & works.

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    • I was there in Mesa yesterday and listened carefully .I have read all that he has written ,listened to and read all the 9 prior talks , and have attend the first,sixth and last talks. It was made known to me in Ephraim that he was a true messenger and that he spoke the truth. I plan to seek additional light and truth about what God would have me do. In the interim I plan to continue to attend church ,continue being scoutmaster and discharge my service as a temple worker until the Lord tells me to do differently. The idea of skipping those deadly 3 hour blocks is certainly tempting though

      Liked by 2 people

    • What say I? 🙂 Still happy. The Spirit has been inspiring me and teaching me…much. (And I appreciatively thank all those who have striven to keep this conversation elevated and mature.)

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  41. So what does Denver say happened last Conference that would elicit such a condemnation and action on his part? Is he talking about his excommunication or what? Like your Carol, I’ll have to ponder and pray about this. But I would like to know a what your answer is to the question above. Ruth

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    • Hi Ruth: Yes, Denver is referring to his excommunication. By sustaining the Brethren, the church sustained the action of the Brethren in upholding both Denver’s excommunication and the attempt of the Brethren to cover up their involvement. At that point, the phrase “Amen to the priesthood of that man” was applied.

      Someone else could probably explain it better. If I had the time I would look it up for you. It’s on Denver’s blog and in his previous lectures. That’s why it’s important to read the material he said the Lord had him deliver – the previous lectures and what was delivered yesterday.

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    • The Lord told him the authority was lost when the GAs sustained the unrighteous action taken to excommunicate a true messenger sent by God. As a result of their unrighteous exercise of their priesthood they lost it collectively.You can say all you want about organizational snafus but if a true prophet leads Christ’s church he should know when an angel sent by God was being ‘marred” by the church that he presides over. If he doesn’t what does it say about his ability to get revelation when he needs it

      Liked by 3 people

      • So Denver excommunicated the Church because they excommunicated Him for teaching false doctrine? The hubris is palpable! Does he not realize that the Christ he claims vested him with authority (which, by the way, is not the pattern shown by Joseph who received his keys from ancient prophets and apostles) has the power to correct any errors of His apostles? The Lord does not undermine the Church he established by raising up another Rio usurp that authority.

        Denver Snuffer is a false prophet, plain and simple.

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  42. Haven’t they always asked the question about the prophet? I don’t see that as a new one. What am I missing? Ruth

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  43. We have always been told to pray to ask if there is a prophet on the earth. That has been our belief system and paradigm since the earlier times in the church. I say unto you that it is a disjointed path. We don’t ask the Lord about men. We ask the Lord about Himself and the words for you to follow. Shed the belief system. It is a blind alley.

    Liked by 2 people

  44. Our family intends to follow what the Lord has revealed through Denver. The church cannot save us. Only the Lord has that power.

    There is a pattern the Lord has shown us time and time again. “More or less” than His pattern is what I believe we must discern for ourselves.

    Ashton

    Liked by 2 people

  45. Let me add to my previous comment…

    “The church cannot save us. [Denver cannot save us] Only the Lord has that power [to save us]”

    That is part of the message communicated to me. Seek from the Lord for the power and authority to baptize, bless the sacrament, etc as the prophets of old have shown us.

    Liked by 2 people

  46. Also, where has the church said that Christ no longer ministers to members, that his authority has been given to men? I have not heard anything like that in my ward. So I am unsure where this claim comes from. Do you know?

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    • 2nd Nephi 28:5 – last line. The Brethren have said, “We have the power of the Lord. He has given us His power.” The work of the Lord is to save the souls of men. Men cannot save us. Only Christ can save us.

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      • Is there a reference on that quote, Tim?

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        • Tim, I am trying to keep up with the flood of comments, without responding much, but there is so much misunderstanding in here. It’s painful. The last line refers to the “God is dead” theory, not the leaders of the Church, all of whom have deep testimonies of the Lord’s leadership of this Church.

          I’m apalled that so many are easily led away through the wresting of the scriptures, by this man.

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      • The understanding we seek begins with an understanding of the keys of the priesthood. “Priesthood keys are the authority God has given to priesthood [holders] to direct, control, and govern the use of His priesthood on earth.” Every act or ordinance performed in the Church is done under the direct or indirect authorization of one holding the keys for that function. As Elder M. Russell Ballard has explained, “Those who have priesthood keys … literally make it possible for all who serve faithfully under their direction to exercise priesthood authority and have access to priesthood power.”

        Source: Elder Dallin H. Oaks: General Conference, April 2014: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/the-keys-and-authority-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng

        Key phrase: “God has given … priesthood [holders] … control …”

        Compare to D&C 121: “No power … can … be controlled by virtue of the priesthood …”

        Liked by 1 person

      • Many times righteous men are given great power by God, as we see in the Bible and BOM, but this scripture refers to the claims of wicked men who wish to deny God. It was even on the cover of Time magazine at one point: GOD IS DEAD it read, and the article went on to explain the origin and development of the theory (Nietzsche – Google it.)

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      • Was there not a reference for “We have the power of the Lord. He has given us His power.”?
        What you are now quoting is something else, but even then, I don’t think you’re paraphrase is fair.

        Liked by 1 person

      • For Nonrandom: agreed. Didn’t have time to dig. Too much going on with work first day back from vacation. The point is yours.

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  47. Perhaps I read a different history, but as I recall Joseph Smith built a whole town not just a temple.

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    • Actually, Ruth, Joseph continually implored the people to build the Nauvoo temple first, before the other buildings. They did not heed his urgings. Joseph did not build any of the Nauvoo buildings. He was the driving force behind the completion of the Kirtland temple, thus the claim that Joseph only built one building – a temple (in Kirtland).

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      • As I read the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord also commanded Joseph to build other buildings:

        D&C124

        22 Let my servant George, and my servant Lyman, and my servant John Snider, and others, build a house unto my name, such a one as my servant Joseph shall show unto them, upon the place which he shall show unto them also.

        23 And it shall be for a house for boarding, a house that strangers may come from afar to lodge therein; therefore let it be a good house, worthy of all acceptation, that the weary traveler may find health and safety while he shall contemplate the word of the Lord; and the cornerstone I have appointed for Zion.

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  48. I’ll be interested to hear what Carol thinks of all of all this. I’d talk with and listen to her .

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    • I’ll ask her to share again. She says she’s afraid she would offend because she disagrees so vehemently with Denver.

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  49. And how is organizing in small groups to baptize and all not forming a church? Just because you don’t declare yourself as a church doesn’t mean that’s not what you are doing. This is all straight out of prophecy about the last days. A tithe of a tithe will remain….very interesting to watch it unfold.
    Better keep checking with The Lord. The arm of flesh ……

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    • See D&C 10 :67 . A single person can be Christ’s church, Time to overcome your cultural baggage and see what the Savior actually says

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    • Disambiguate on is in order:

      Modern definition of what “church” means: a legal entity, the hierarchical leadership of a group of people, the leaders of a religious denomination. “The church announced a broadcast for European women.”

      Scriptural definition: a group of people that believe similarly.

      As with most religious vocabulary, the meaning of “church” has been perverted. No new hierarchy is being established.

      And if the LDS church (either members or leadership) is frightened by a very tiny group of people meeting together to pray and fellowship, then there’s something seriously wrong, and that fear smacks of the days when the bible was available only in Greek and Latin, and the clergy kept an iron grip on their parishioners’ worship and access to the word of God.

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  50. Men form churches, followers of Christ meet in assemblies. That word is stuck in your head and manipulates into a non-sequitor. We do not need to form a church. Christ’s church are his people…period

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    • First of all, initial reply to your post: Holy S***.

      😛

      Second of all, a word concerning your situation with your wife. I don’t wish to step overstep the bounds propriety, but so here goes anyways. Also, I not have read all the comments in this post, so forgive me if the content of my post this has already been communicated in some way. Here goes:

      “But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.”

      1 Corinthians 7:12-17 (LDS 2013 Edition)

      Now, I’m not saying that you appear to want to “put your wife away.” But I am saying this:

      “For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; else were your children unclean, but now are they holy. Now, in the days of the apostles the law of circumcision was had among all the Jews who believed not the gospel of Jesus Christ. And it came to pass that there arose a great contention among the people concerning the law of circumcision, for the unbelieving husband was desirous that his children should be circumcised and become subject to the law of Moses, which law was fulfilled. And it came to pass that the children, being brought up in subjection to the law of Moses, gave heed to the traditions of their fathers and believed not the gospel of Christ, wherein they became unholy. Wherefore, for this cause the apostle wrote unto the church, giving unto them a commandment, not of the Lord, but of himself, that a believer should not be united to an unbeliever; except the law of Moses should be done away among them, That their children might remain without circumcision; and that the tradition might be done away, which saith that little children are unholy; for it was had among the Jews; But little children are holy, being sanctified through the atonement of Jesus Christ; and this is what the scriptures mean.”

      D&C 74 (LDS 2013 Edition)

      Your wife seems to believe the modern “Law of Moses” – LDS Church teachings. They are good many ways and can help bring people to Christ. Eventually the majority of them must be discarded, at least in our mind in our heart, to follow Christ without restraint. Eventually I believe most people must discard the symbol in favor of the pursuing and obtaining of the real thing. You claim however that: “My job these days is to love my wife with all my heart, to serve her and to use kindness and gentle persuasion.” If you simply do that you can’t go wrong, says Moroni: “Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail— But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.” (LDS Moroni 7: 46-47.) And Paul as well: “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.” (LDS 1 Corinthians 7:8.)

      I believe you may be able help her discard her modern “laws of circumcision” view in favor of greater unfiltered belief in Christ. Emphasis on MAY. It is always good to try, if possible, to give good things/gifts, if the recipient is willing to receive or at least seriously consider the gift.

      I wrote this stuff to hopefully provide some degree of comfort, even though I don’t usually write stuff like this. I’m not married, but I have discussed church teachings and Snuffer with my folks. It was rough at times. What at times hurt the most is they wouldn’t even consider the guy’s argument’s. When he got ex-ed it didn’t help one bit. It hurt to consider that if Christ were today in the flesh in our day, he would act like Snuffer, and my folks would ‘snuff’ him (LDS Malachi 1: 13: “Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the Lord of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the Lord.” – The footnote for the word ‘snuffed’ states: ‘OR belittled it.’) My folks are good people. I’m sure your wife is too.

      I don’t mean to sound hopeless, but your wife may never accept Denver Snuffer as prophet or his message. You may have to just give it a rest eventually. She may grow to respect your view more. She may just never agree. That is fine. Like Paul said, prophecies fail, tongues ceases, and knowledge vanishes. The priority, the relevant thing, would be charity. Indeed, love her. I do not even mention Snuffer with my family anymore (or hardly at all.) We are all the better off for it, speaking as a family, not individually. In that sense, “family” is more important that “religion.”

      Liked by 3 people

      • Peralta, I have struggled with this same situation (my wife’s rejection of Snuffer’s words) for some time now. Your kind counsel based in the Scriptures is timely. Even as one who is not married, the LORD has blessed you with insight and wisdom to share with others. Thank you and thank GOD that we all can be edified and lifted by the Spirit when we are calm and choose to listen. Thank you.

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  51. I am going to share a snippet of an email I had recently with Denver Snuffer regarding something that is private. But, in his response, there is a phrase I will share that I think clarifies this talk of starting up a new church. He said:

    “…. when the objective is to have fully functioning, confident and independent saints forming communities.”

    That comment is not supportive of starting up new churches. This comment supports having like-minded people, independent and in their own natural communities becoming confident–in what?? Confident in the Lord, in using priesthood power (which is what he was referring to in my email.)

    Not a new church, replaced with new leaders and new strong men.

    Oh. Kind of like Zion communities. Sounds like a really bad intention to me. Nothing good could come out of that idea. (sarcasm)

    In fact, isn’t that what Denver said this whole lecture series was about? Laying the ground work for Zion? And here we’re all freaking out about it, because TSM didn’t instruct it? That instruction is never going to come from that source and most of you know it.

    How else did you expect it to come about?

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    • Thank you! This is exactly how I understood it, and I’m surprised how many people see it as creating a new church. It’s foundational instruction for how we MIGHT prepare for Zion to return to this world, through us as individuals rising up to connect with heaven and coming together in a sense of equal community, hierarchies being left behind. It is the work of preparing the few Gentiles who will join the Remnant (because you can’t join their Zion without being ready to participate, which requires some HEAVY training when considering where we come from).

      It’s surprising to see how fearful and contentious many of the reactions are. Why are we so anxious for Zion’s arrival, crossing our fingers it will be during our life, yet so offended and blinded and turned off by a call and an opportunity to begin bringing that very thing about? We want Zion now, but are afraid and unwilling to begin becoming exactly that, preferring to forestall it further, until some later voice calls us to do it when we’re more comfortable. It’s cognitive dissonance.

      Nobody is going to do it for you. It won’t be more comfortable or more easy later, that’s just procrastination. There will always be a chasm between the Telestial ways and Zion, one you will be expected to cross yourself before joining Zion. You can’t wait until you’re there to start living as those in Zion live, because you will not be welcome to enter with your Telestial wickedness intact. We must prove ourselves capable of living the laws of Zion. Prove, not just offer well-intentioned, fingers-crossed assurances of a pure heart based on a hopeful, future invitation (the proving being done to the Lord, not men). A person doesn’t know if they can handle living a Zion-like standard until they gain experience by actually doing it. Simply assuming preparedness, even future preparedness, without actual experience is arrogance, it’s pride. Whether we do it now or wait until destruction humbles us, we ultimately must rise up, cross the chasm, gain the experience and be proven Zion-worthy if we are to be part of Zion. We’re simply being invited to gain a degree of experience now. So why wait? Destructions suck.

      Liked by 5 people

  52. The revelations to Joseph Smith make it clear that there is indeed authority from above. The ordained apostles hold the priesthood keys of the ordinances of the gospel and the authority to vest that power in a president of the Church. Joseph himself organized the quorums and hierarchy. To try to use Joseph to claim that no such hierarchy exists is to deny the prophetic mantle of the man.

    Denver may claim visions and visitations and seek to usurp that authority, but he cannot wrest the authority from the twelve. By his own actions he has removed himself from priesthood power, and will cause any who follow him to remove themselves from the blessings of the priesthood. He is a modern day Korihor, and is preaching pleasing doctrines that exalt himself in the eyes of others and lifts others up in the pride of their own eyes. He is a false teacher, drawing away the hearts of those who might otherwise enjoy the blessings of the priesthood. He should be decried as the false prophet that he is.

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    • John, how do you KNOW? You declare, without any tentativeness or uncertainty or restraint, that DS is a modern day Korihor, a false teacher, who is deceiving and drawing people away from the truth. Is this your opinion or do you KNOW this and how do you KNOW it?

      If this is based on your reasoning and tradition alone, these statements are very presumptuous, careless, and hold little if any value. I’m not saying you couldn’t be right but if you don’t really KNOW you are trifling with men’s souls by declaring something as fact that you don’t really KNOW (from the Lord).

      One of the prevalent false traditions in our LDS Church is how we throw around the word “know” and make declarative/authoritative statements without really knowing that what we are declaring is the truth. We’ve created this false framework of logic that basically says: if Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon are true and of God, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true and all of its Presidents/Apostles are absolutely chosen literal witnesses of the resurrected Lord and hold all the keys and can never lead us astray, etc., etc. A = B = C = D =… Z. Is this logic really sound? Is every thing we’ve attached to the framework of the Church really true?

      Do you KNOW the true state and standing the Church and its leaders today, from the Lord? I’m interested in your opinion and thoughts, but not a pretension to knowledge or authority which you do not have. Feel free to use persuasion or reason, but please don’t pretend to knowledge or authoritative declaration unless you have KNOWLEDGE.

      Liked by 3 people

    • And love and peace to you, brother, if that didn’t come through in my typing. I am seeking the Lord’s truth in all things.

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    • John,

      Since where in history when the Lord established anything did it last? Please show me. The city of Enoch took 355 years before it was taken up but they were living law of consecration, we are not. Nothing in history lasted when men were in charge with the responsibility for spiritual things. Living a telestial law as we are make us even more vulnerable. If history proves correctly, this church would fall the same way. But no…this will last until the Mellenium you say. By what historical evidence do you purport?

      Brothels in Nauvoo, Brigham saying his edicts would never be unestablished? Nephi was speaking to us. You can be an ostrich if you wish (there are still many of them left even with their behavior). Nephi’s prophecies are referring to us and it is glaring. We have issues that cannot be rectified by the mainstream, non-thus sayeth the Lord types claiming authority.

      Belief systems are so hard to investigate altruistically. But investigate we must to shed all unbelief, or whatever you should discover. Humility is not comprised with the Strengthen the Members Committee, nor the COB. It is not comprised with the Prophet saying we should not open the scriptures in Sacrament meeting. There is a demarcation or there will be a demarcation, and who will it be that will establish it? Whether it be DS or another, it will come and it will leave many behind.

      Liked by 1 person

  53. I believe this opportunity to chose to listen to Denver or not gives us the opportunity to accept or reject Christ as if he were on the earth again. One way or the other, we are going to choose to follow Christ or not follow him, however that looks to each of us. As for me, I am seeking to be converted to the Gospel of Christ and to be born again through the Holy Spirit, then obtain mine errand from the Lord and with patience and persuasion and long suffering, help my family to do the same. How is that working for me so far? Not so well. I welcome additional light and truth and I believe I have found light in Denver’s message.But we are all free to choose. The other plan would have no choices, What we are not free to do is to limit others in their search for truth. I don’t know where the search for truth and light will lead me, but I have promised the Lord that I will do what he asks. When he gives me light, I need to respond. Again, not working so well for me.

    Thank you for the discussion on Lecture #10. I was not able to attend, and the sneak preview has been interesting.

    Peace,
    Thinkinguponhisname

    Liked by 2 people

  54. Tim,
    I have tried to avoid this stuff but I find myself pained by the above. I have not read all of it but I can only say listen to what you are saying. The church is void, the priesthood authority is gone and we are free to create our own church? Yes Denver will not create it, but you can. See you are naked make aprons of fig leaves. He didn’t make them he just suggested it. How can you feel the voice of God from a person who teaches that only he has ascended high enough to help all of us sheepeople. How did he get there if all the authority was gone. His baptism was invalid, and so on. Second a true prophet will not teach false doctrine and he teaches a bunch, we have talked about this before. I can cite Greg smith (http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/author/greg/) who went through his book and documents the false doctrine and the distortions of History. Have the courage to read it. If Denver and the Spirit are true then nothing will matter. Third Men are now considered less valuable than women. Excuse me all brethren who are not married must leave the room. Show me where Christ ever said that!

    Tim you are being deceived and all those espouse Denver are going to be lead down a path that will eventually end in pain and grief.

    I beg you to realize that the doctrine he is teaching is totally false. I can bear you my testimony that I know he is false. Listen to your wife who had the sense to get up and leave.

    I have seen the power of the priesthood in healing’s and in revelations, it is not gone.

    I trust in my Lord, I have seen my Lord and I can tell you my God is not part of this.. So either I am lost or this stuff is destructive to the souls of men because it will lead them to a false God. One who pretends to be an angle of Light.

    If you have ever hearken to my advice before please listen now. I don’t know you but this pains my soul that this will devour you.

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    • Jim: I added a note to the original post about the brother who got up to say he felt to excuse himself after the suggestion by the sister who wanted to organize a group on the spot. This good brother was thinking only of his dear wife who was at home with the children. He wanted to share what he had heard with his wife before participating in the move to organize a group. Don’t read more into it than that.

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      • Tim,
        Can I ask you a question? Did Christ organize his church by the voice of the 7 women in either the New Testament or even in the Book of Mormon? I have nothing against the sisters some of them are my best friends, But where are the types and patterns for this silliness, if he is using Isaiah as his source that’s not what Isaiah 4 meant.. This just proves my point about what DS teaches it goes against the scriptures. Did Joseph organize the church with 7 women?

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    • Jim, I have the same questions for you that I posed to John L. just above:

      https://latterdaycommentary.com/2014/09/09/a-few-notes-from-the-mesa-lecture/#comment-29966

      Basically, how do you KNOW? You said, “I know he is false.” You said you have seen the Lord. Does that mean you know Denver is false? Did He tell you that in person? I hope you will clarify. Reason and extrapolation are insufficient here. Please.

      With love and peace.

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      • I’ll answer the last question first. When My wife was dying I was a wreck, I was angry at God because he refused to heal her. You see when I placed my hands upon her head to heal her, the spirit said No. She was not to be healed.

        It crushed me, and I kick against the pricks for awhile. This answer did not mean I was thrown off but instead my will was not the will of the father.

        Many things transpired that are beyond mans understanding. I saw blessings of revelation from a good bishop pronounced upon my wife’s head that were fulfilled to the word, and I mean verbatim. You don’t have to believe me on that but it is in my journal from twelve years ago..

        During this time I had an experience in which I came to truly understand the Atonement. I am no prophet, not even a particularly good follower but I know who Christ is and I have felt the Love of God melt me to my knees. I tell you this because I know the spirit that will accompany the admonition of the Lord.

        So if the Keys and authority are gone how did all this stuff in my Journal happen? This alone tells me he is wrong. I will not lie and state these events did not occur and risk being smitten by God. I may be dense but not that dense.

        But as for Denver’s falseness. I have stated before If he was just teaching this as a man, I would have no problems with his concepts, but he stated unequivocally that an angel had given him his charge and the Lord himself had ministered to him concerning this charge.

        Ok, so the standard is way high when he says that. Its at this point I start to see things that are wrong. Plainly wrong. How can a prophet called of God and ministered to by an Angel the Lord himself teach false doctrine. If he is a prophet then he must by definition teach only that which is given him by the spirit. Not his own philosophies.

        So does Denver teach any thing that is wrong? Look all over the web and you will see the contradictions. I am not a skilled wordsmith, I don’t quote every scripture but I know the truth. I have found a good resource which shows many of the base concepts of DS are flat out wrong and are countered by documentation. http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/author/greg/ Read it if you will.

        As I stated in other blogs I was originally taken with him and took it to the Lord and ever since then I have seen flaws in his doctrine. So I will respond to you by asking one question.

        If Denver is a prophet given his charge by angels and the Lord can he teach any falsehoods in that Charge?

        If the answer is no then simple he is out. If you say yes then how do you square his teachings against the brethren? Aren’t they all fallen then?

        I know the Lord Lives I know the Gospel is true, and yes President Monson is the man called to be the oracle of GOD for the LDS church. But more importantly the teachings of DS do not bring the Saviors Love into my heart when I hear it. It creates discord and contention.

        I don’t know if that answered you question.

        My post was not a call to anyone to repentance but to plead with you not to go down this path as pain and suffering will come from it.

        May the Lord bless you and help all of us not be mislead.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Jim, it appears you are misapprehending what Denver has taught on the subject of what the modern LDS Church has been missing. His assertion is that the fulness of the Priesthood that was lost at the time of Joseph & Hyrum’s death had no bearing on the retention of Aaronic priesthood, which Denver describes as incredibly “durable”. (The only thing that can remove Aaronic is outright rebellion against God.) He has also made clear that the effect of LDS priesthood ordinances is primarily based on the *faith* of the person receiving it, not the “worthiness” of the secretly fornicating young man who just blessed the sacrament in your congregation. (my example, not his) Thus it would be your faith, your wife’s faith, and your bishop’s faith that would have governed how much the Lord was able to reveal, show, and bless in those situations.

        Please, be cautious and study what is given carefully. Just as you might be remiss to see a “missionary investigator” dismiss the Book of Mormon without first carefully and prayerfully studying its contents, it would likely behoove us to similarly consider the message of one like Denver who, having no credentials, claims to present a message from the Lord. Don’t rely on others.

        Even relying on “authorities” like Greg–whose response to Passing the Heavenly Gift demonstrated to me such a massive misapprehension or ignorance of what Denver wrote so as to come off as quite disingenuous. I began writing up a response to his critique of PTHG, but after writing over 120 comments pointing out his incorrect taking of what seemed quite plain, I stopped. It became apparent to me that anyone having that book (PTHG) in hand could readily determine the same from an even somewhat cursory, objective review of Greg’s assertions.

        But if Denver’s words frighten you, I’d really recommend that you not worry about them and carry on. Place your trust where you will.

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      • Vaughn,

        I’m not misrepresenting a thing. DS is all over the place. And as for fear you missed my point. I am watching my Brothers and Sisters head down a path that will bring nothing but pain and sorrow. It causes me extreme grief that so many will be left destitute at the end of this thing.

        I have given up trying to sound the warning call. But you have your own agency so I can not, nor will I stop you. I will not even cast dispersion’s upon you but hope at some point in the future you will see the light and come back.

        True I may be the one in the wrong according to you but always remember we love you all and just want you to have as much happiness as you will allow the Lord to give you.

        I can’t deal with this nonsense any longer the world is burning, the adversary is raging and instead of unifying in the common purpose of the Lord we are arguing what is a prophet or where did the authority go.

        Look around its right in front of you, not only the doctrine but the fruits that come from it. Always remember the Lord Loves you and when you finally get tired of kicking against the pricks he will welcome you back.

        I know, I know I’m the one who is wrong,but just remember his arm is still extended, take it and come home.

        May the Lord bless all of you and you too Tim. I hope you find peace in what ever you finally decide to do regarding the church.

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      • I, like Jim have read Denvers works, his early books while wordy, were inspirational, however that changed dramatically with PTHG, he turns against his own earlier advice, contradicts even his own earlier writings, and certainly against all he professed to believe that led him to Christ. PTHG is a one sided legal brief, designed to put forth his own opinions and that ignores completely the other side of the argument and evidences. He presents it as settled history, it is incomplete, twisted and false. Jim is right, back up a few steps, look at the whole picture, Denvers teachings pick and choose what he wants to say, ignoring mountains of scripture, historical evidences, and instructions from the Prophet. You can choose to follow him but I pray you will come to see the truth.

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    • Actually, the idea for the members in areas to organize themselves and build “synagogues” where Priesthood are *invited* to preach is directly from the Book of Mormon post-Yahsua visit. I invite you to dig into the subject.

      BTW, I am just starting to learn about DS and his claims, so I have no opinion either way of the man. He is going to have to really explain the “approval of 7 women to operate in you calling thing”… seems like he is trolling for wives by trying to get on their good side. 😉

      I am what I describe as an ULDS (Unorthodox Latter Day Saint)… I am ex-LDS, current associated with the RLDS Restoration Branches, who accepts the Priesthood and baptisms of most “Mormon” churches coming from the Joseph Smith experience. I embrace polygamists as my brothers and sisters, keep the Feasts, don’t eat pigs, and wear tzittzit. I’m a trip, man. 😉

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  55. Everybody is so concerned about whether Denver is a prophet. I just had an argument with someone yesterday about it. It’s just too loaded a term to be able to use in most circumstances.

    My current working understanding, based on what I have observed, felt, and heard in the past couple years, is that the age of prophets has ended. LDS Church leadership hasn’t been prophetic for a while, offshoots have generally turned out to be uninspired or fraudulent, and Denver, whatever he is, claims he doesn’t want a following, and I think we should take him at his word, regardless of what he ends up doing or saying in the future.

    We’ve had prophets, we’ve had messengers; now is the time to see what we can do with what we’ve been given. The scripture from Jeremiah or Hebrews comes to mind: “they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.” That doesn’t sound like a society that needs prophets to obtain the word of God. Instead, it sounds like if we want to participate in that society, we need to be prophets ourselves. As impossibly unattainable that may seem to me right now, I am convinced this needs to be our goal.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Julie,

      I think that this is the deceptiveness of Denver Snuffer which we see realized in the statement that we don’t need prophets. Please show me where in the scriptures the Lord tosses out the prophets. And this is why I am so concerned. Once you remove the servants of the Lord you become a ship without a rudder. Remember the three Nephites they were only taken away once the peoples faith in the Lord failed. We lose Prophets not because we get better, but when we get worse.

      Anyone who receives instruction from the Lord to assist another can be classified as a Prophet as far as I am concerned. Also remember Christ in Matthew 24 said there would be many false prophets in the Latter days. But there would also be real prophets too. God does not leave his vineyard to tend for itself see the Allegory of Zenos.

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  56. As an interested observer to all this, I hope that you who follow Denver Snuffer know what you are getting into:

    1) Much of the dissatisfaction I read about in forums like this has to do with the mantra to “follow the Brethren” rather than Christ and certainly to “not criticize the Brethren.” You now have yourself a new leader who says that Christ will punish you for criticizing him. Is this what you were hoping for?

    2) What will happen when some of you disagree with what Prophet Denver decides? It will be interesting to watch how he reacts, and whether you will submit to him in the same way you criticize TBMs for submitting to LDS leadership.

    3) Who will administer the collected tithing and other funds? Denver himself? Please tell me you won’t be sending off your checks to him. Prophet Denver will soon see that establishing Zion is a full-time job, incompatible with a profession as a lawyer. Will it be ok for him to be supported with your funds–perhaps with a “stipend?” As the movement grows larger, a bureaucracy of sorts will be necessary–ironic given how much you people rail about the Church(TM) bureaucracy.

    4) Speaking of trademarks, what will the Church/loose organization be called? What will happen when imposters use the same name or speak out of line without Denver’s permission? You will all soon realize the value of trademarks.

    5) Who will own the movement’s property? Legally, someone has to have it. Will Denver be the new President of the Corporation? Who will own the temple and the land? It has to be in someone’s name. Whose?

    6) About scripture – I know Denver takes scripture seriously. An honest question: Where does it talk in scripture about divorce? Is there a revelation superseding Matthew 5 on the issue? I hope Denver and others in his movement comply with all of God’s scripture.

    7) How will this new movement ensure that it does not become the very thing that Denver and others originally criticized?

    8) Denver’s logic doesn’t make much sense to me. Surely he realizes he is not the first LDS person claiming visions from Christ himself. Surely he recognizes that other righteous people have been excommunicated. It seems strange that when these things have been going on for decades, suddenly the Church loses its authority when it decides to go against Denver. Why now and not then?

    Just a few thoughts. I’ll probably have more, but I look forward to any thoughts you have.

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    • France, those are all extremely valid concerns. My thought is that it has worked before, so there must be a way for it to work now: the city of Enoch, the city of Melchizedek, maybe for periods of time during Peter and Paul’s ministry, Alma the Elder’s little settlement, and the Nephites after Christ’s visit, to name a few. I can’t imagine this working at all if there is even a hint of a central administration–it will only work on an extremely local level. I recommend DS’s talk on Zion to you for ideas about how this might work individually/locally. But most of your points can be answered simply by saying that the local leadership will make decisions about money, property, etc, with the common consent of the local assembly, and that’s it. If anyone attempts to create any kind of central administration, then I think your #7 will become a reality.

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      • The city of Enoc was lead and administered by a Prophet – Enoc.

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    • France, Denver covers almost all of your questions in the earlier 9 parts of this talk that he has now given. (except divorce, which he partially covers in his book Eighteen Verses) I strongly recommend you read them. (Here they are in PDF form: http://1drv.ms/1uHKWVm) What he has described (if done as described) would not suffer from the concerns you bring up. It doesn’t involve him running anything. It would involve groups of people *individually* receiving the Second Comforter, gathering in groups, and being directed by the Lord himself–what the world would expect to chaotic and unlikely. Some might consider such a success marvelous or even a wonder.

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  57. Tim, et al,
    I have previously posted using only a pen name, but I will post today in my own name because this is a time to shed our fears and speak out for the truth. The LORD has been revealing to me over the past 2 years almost everything Denver spoke of in Phoenix on Sept 9, 2014. The LORD has revealed to me many times that Denver is a Prophet of the LORD and has spoken the truth.
    Believe or fight against Zion, that is the decision we each face; but the work of the LORD will roll forth, and it is not being done out of the Church Office Building, hence the LORD had to find someone who would do HIS work.
    Hallelujah and GLORY TO THE LORD!
    JAMES RUSSELL UHL (AKA JR)
    .

    Liked by 1 person

    • James, Tim, and everyone else here, please just beware of getting caught up in this. I keep hearing that “Denver just started a new church after all”, all these affirmations that he is a prophet, implying that we need to “follow” him. It scares me, even though I have been profoundly inspired by his messages. And it’s not at all what I get when I read the notes and comments about his talk last Tuesday.

      What I get is that the Lord is telling us it is time to reclaim the gospel for ourselves. Live it the way it was meant to be lived, “according to the dictates of our own conscience,” and being careful to use only the scriptures as our guide, casting off the old correlated materials and manuals.

      This is about reclaiming something that was ours to begin with, but which we didn’t feel entirely free to take for ourselves. Denver delivered his message, we will read it when the transcript comes out, but his work is done. In fact, I had a thought the other day, that if Denver is indeed a true messenger, who has now completed his task, then he needs to do a Samuel the Lamanite and just disappear (hopefully after he posts the final transcript, though!). Further meddling would diminish what he has just given us.

      Please beware of idolatry. It is just as dangerous as ever, and the stakes are even higher now.

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      • I’ve been wondering if that will indeed be the case, i.e. he will go off the radar now. What better way for the truth of his message to be confirmed? And what better way for all of us now to rely wholly upon the Lord? If he continues to be present and involved in the coming efforts to start gathering in our various locations then (1) this will fuel the suspicions already popping up that he’s going to now organize a church or following and (2) we who accept the message he’s delivered during the past year may rely too much on him for further light rather than now taking it all to the Lord.

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  58. To All, and I apologize for my lengthy posts, are you crying mightily to the Lord (or even just asking Him) about this? Are you following this process from Moroni 10?

    3 Behold, I would exhort you
    that when ye shall read these things,
    if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them,
    that ye would remember
    how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men
    from the creation of Adam even down until the time
    that ye shall receive these things
    and ponder it in your hearts.
    4 And when ye shall receive these things,
    I would exhort you
    that ye would ask God the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ,
    if these things are not true.
    And if ye shall ask with a sincere heart,
    with real intent, having faith in Christ,
    and he will manifest the truth of it unto you
    by the power of the Holy Ghost.
    5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost
    ye may know the truth of all things.

    For those who believe or have been enlightened by any of DS’s writings/words/talks, are you doing this? Or are you now just blindly accepting and following every word that comes from him? Are you assuming if he taught truth A that teaching B is also true? Are you certain?

    I quote from a post on LDSFF:

    Have you heard the story of the knowledgeable high councilman who saw the changing of the ordinances and taught that the LDS church was in error? He said folks needed to return to the original teachings of Joseph Smith. He emphasized the scriptures and the Lectures on Faith. He called out leaders of the LDS church for wickedness.

    Perhaps the most remarkable part of his ministry was the fact that he had entertained angels and had even met with both God the Father and Jesus Christ. His authority, he said, came from Them. He spoke in the name of the Lord with specific messages from Him. He encouraged others to pierce the veil. He clarified doctrines like Zion, multiple mortal probations, plural marriage, and consecration. He opposed the idea of one “leader” but acknowledged his divine role in latter-day events.

    Many who heard him speak were convinced that he was the real deal. Said one woman: “Tonight I got my witness. And it’s burning within my soul at how important this work is and how true it is. I know it is… But I know without a shadow of doubt that this is the Lord’s work, that I have finally found it. And I love you guys, and I’m thankful for your prayers and for all that you have to offer me. I say this in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.”

    The man I have described is probably not who you think it is. This man’s name is Jim Harmston. I now unveil my fear: I fear being deceived. Denver’s story isn’t all that unique. He is one of many luminaries throughout history who has brought a divine message.

    Jim Harmston, the false prophet who founded The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or TLC for short) in Manti, Utah. Guess what? They gathered, they performed ordinances, they built a temple, and their “prophet” prophesied that Christ would appear to them on the third floor of their temple in Manti on March 25, 2000, and feast with them, and thus begin to usher in the Terrestrial/Millennium for this earth. What really happened on the prophesied date? Nothing. No appearance. Not even a group hallucination or trumped up spiritual experience. Harmston told everyone eventually to go home and ask if they were the cause of the failure (“Is it I?”), which sounds like ecclesiastical and megalomaniacal abuse, btw. Bottom line: false prophecy and false prophet with a lot of true pattern elements. Is this giving anyone else some pause? Now it’s true, Jim retreated to Brigham Young’s flavor of the restoration with plural marriage and all that. That’s the pattern most of the fundamentalist groups have followed in their claims that the mainstream LDS Church is in some form of apostasy. DS is going back to Joseph’s and Hyrum’s death and maybe even just prior to that when the saints lost the fullness of the priesthood. So DS’s claims and teachings are different in many ways.

    DS talked about patterns in the Mesa/10th talk, patterns of restoration, apostasy, and then a remnant coming out of the apostasy. He used the examples of John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus Christ versus the mainstream “Jewish” institutional hierarchy of their day as a prime example. Joseph Smith versus the mainstream (though incoherent) churches/denominations of his day is another example. Abinadi and Alma the Elder are another, from the Book of Mormon. Lehi versus Jerusalem, and being led away to start his own nation, is another form. You get the idea. There is a true pattern here which many false prophets have also followed.

    People here are quibbling over the term “prophet” and whether DS is or isn’t, and whether we should even be using that term. Listen, obviously it’s a loaded term in LDS culture, but it is also a scriptural phrase which the Lord himself used to give us counsel on recognizing false vs true prophets. Denver has never really self-identified as “prophet” and he specifically addressed the subject of the “Strongman” in his Zion talk, but he did make unmistakable references to “the servant” of the Lord who would assist to bring forth the Father’s work in Tuesday’s talk (3 Nephi 21:9-11), and in the Zion talk he said no Strongman but there would be a servant. Was Enoch a prophet or a servant? Both. Same with Melchizedek. They led people of righteousness and properly used Holy Order (Higher) Priesthood to bring to pass righteousness and Zion. Stop quibbling over semantics. Let’s call it straight. They were true prophets/servants. Is Denver? I don’t KNOW yet. Was Jim Harmston? Obviously not. But lets not become sheeple. Let’s become worthy heirs who KNOW the Lord and don’t need to be told to KNOW Him. I await further light and knowledge before jumping in head first. I’m not saying yay or nay because I do not KNOW.

    Do any of you KNOW any more surely (as surely as you live?) than the woman quoted above in reference to Jim Harmston with the “burning in [her] soul… without a shadow of a doubt…”? This may take a handshake with a resurrected being for me (D&C 129) and my family to overturn everything my parents gave me and which they gave up everything they previously had to follow (the LDS version of the Restoration). DS made statements on Tuesday which we have a right to have ratified by Heaven in a sure way. Keith, the brother who stood up at the end of DS’s talk, and offered his second witness that the voice of the Lord bore witness to him that Denver’s message (10 talks) were from the Lord, and closed with sealing language “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.” – that doesn’t settle the matter for me either. We are entitled to answers directly from God, not by a mortal man’s mouth, to settle this. And for me it is going to have to be more reliable than a warm fuzzy. I need to KNOW it is the Lord and not any form of self-deception or false manifestation. I hope I can suggest that you all do the same? If you think you have it all figured out, feel free to ignore my words.

    Part of me is with you, Julie, if Denver is or has been a true servant of the Lord in delivering this 10-talk message, which he said was finished now, part of me kind of hopes he, like John the Baptist, fades away and the Lord raises up (increases) another to be “the servant” from 3 Nephi 21:9-11 (and Jacob 5:57). How much more appealing would it be if in quoting 3 Nephi 21:9-11 DS had no reference to himself and his message and this movement had no further resemblance to the false prophets/pretenders like Harmston who have already come and deceived and lied and failed, leaving ruined lives and families in their wakes.

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    • Well said, Geoff. If DS is a true messenger of the Lord, our testimony of the message will only be strengthened by the exercise of our faith in the cause of studying, pondering and praying as you’ve outlined. If DS is simply a nice delusional man, studying, pondering and praying about the message should bring us closer to God while we wish DS a nice day.

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    • I need to be CLEAR that I am NOT speaking against Denver. I do not presently KNOW the truth of the matter, speaking of the Mesa/10th/final talk and his invitations to take specific actions, and will not pretend to knowledge. I want to know the Lord’s truth and I am seeking, asking, and knocking, hoping the Lord will open unto me and tell me surely one way or the other with enough confidence to proceed according to His will. I’m a fool and I am not wise enough to figure this out on my own. And thus I will not take another step down this road in my own wisdom, without His answer/truth. Nothing imaginary, nothing hyped-up, nothing misinterpret-able, nothing false and unreal will do. This is a big deal, if it’s the real deal, but I see the characteristics of both true patterns and false ones. I refuse to be deceived.

      Why can’t I wait to receive the ministry of heavenly angels and/or the Second Comforter myself before making such a major life-changing, generational-tradition-altering, paradigm-shifting step that affects not just me, but my whole family and circles of friends (and our hopes for salvation)? Is this (sure knowledge) available to me? I really believed this knowledge and these blessings were available to me, even when I just read DS’s first book, The Second Comforter. Isn’t that what he taught in that first book? If it was true then, isn’t it still? Wasn’t the whole message to connect with the Lord myself? And that the Book of Mormon was the handbook for doing so myself? Why can’t I have as sure a witness as Denver’s before I take his word for these other things?

      It seems to me that doing what he has invited us to do in the 10th/final talk will surely result in excommunication from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I served as a high councilor and a bishop in a relatively loving and Christ-focused ward and stake (I’m a nobody and a fool). But I can’t imagine anywhere in the LDS Church, not here where I live and not in the most tolerant and free-thinking ward or branch in the Church, that would tolerate being baptized and baptizing as a certificate-bearing and recorded member of another faith/religious community, un-incorporated or not, founded by an LDS excommunicate proclaiming what he has proclaimed relative to the LDS Church, etc. As Tim said, that is one of the actions/situations which current LDS policy/practice/instruction demands a disciplinary council – at that point they would give you the choice of denouncing and “repenting” or being cut off from the LDS Church. The only other option I can think of would be to conceal it, which feels dishonest to me (the only purpose being to preserve one’s membership and standing in the LDS Church). I also don’t think the TR question about “do you support, affiliate with, or agree with…” could be answered in good conscience at that point, so TR forfeit would be minimum (for me, for sure). These are my thoughts and opinions which I’m not declaring as truth or imposing on anyone else. Just writing what’s going through my mind and heart right now as I process, so please don’t judge harshly. If this is really the beginning of the building up and establishing of the real ZION, then any and all of these potential consequences and any other sacrifices would be worth it – no sacrifice wouldn’t be worth the real ZION and the real Church of the Firstborn.

      But can’t I KNOW it is true first, before leaping? Denver knew first. If his testimonies are true, he obtained firsthand knowledge long before even his excommunication. Btw, if I received the Second Comforter, I would have no problem writing a book to share my witness and teach about that doctrine, no matter what the reaction might be. So I don’t even consider his writing that book, and any backlash from declaring such a witness, to be a sacrifice – I consider it a responsibility if the Lord makes one into such a witness/apostle. Joseph knew before persecution and organizing, etc. In fact, Joseph taught in Lectures on Faith, that you need that knowledge in order to endure the sacrifices (all earthly things) which inevitably follow: your good name, your goods, your family and friends, even your life, etc. Lehi knew before he preached to Jerusalem. Alma the younger knew before, and he wasn’t even seeking to know. Saul/Paul knew before and he wasn’t even seeking to know. If God is no respecter of persons (and He surely is no respecter of persons), won’t He let me KNOW something is surely of Him before he requires me to do likewise? If anyone responds with an argument that this is not faith, that I must leap in order to KNOW if I can fly (to analogize), rather than summon the faith to levitate and then lift off, please try to persuade me using examples from the scriptures. I think I’ve provided many examples which demonstrate I can KNOW it’s the Lord before I jump off a cliff or slay my son (disclaimer: just an Abraham/Isaac reference, no reference to me and my son). I am willing to (and will) fast and pray many days that I might KNOW these things for myself, from God. On that note, I don’t believe the LDS Church should or ought to have ever baptized a single person who had not read the whole Book of Mormon, prayed as instructed in Moroni 10, and knew by the power of the Holy Ghost, at least, that such things were true.

      Again, if I’m wrong, and I very well could be, please persuade me. I plan to ask Denver these same questions, btw, to see if/how he will respond. I’ve sent him many questions in the past which he has not answered. I give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s just so busy and inundated that he simply doesn’t have the time to answer the volume of inquiries he might be buried under.

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      • Thanks, I needed to hear this today.

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      • Me too Geoff.

        [url]http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2012/10/parable.html[/url]

        [quote]I saw a great mountain, and upon the top thereof was the glory of the fathers. To reach the top, all were required to enter through a narrow pass. In the pass was a great beast, cruel and pitiless.

        The Lord brought people whom he had chosen to the mouth of the pass, and there He told them to wait for him, and He went away. The people did not wait for Him, but began to move forward into the narrow pass. The beast killed some and injured others, and none were able to pass through.

        After great losses, many deaths and terrible suffering, the people chosen by the Lord withdrew and departed from the mountain. After four and five generations, the Lord again brought some few back to the pass and again told them to stay at the mouth of the pass and wait on Him. But again there were those who tired of waiting, for they could see in the distance the glory of the fathers, and they desired to be there. These, being overtaken by their zeal, did not wait, but moved into the pass where again the beast killed or hurt them.

        Among those who waited, however, was a man who knelt and prayed, and waited patiently for his Lord. After a great time, the Lord came to this man and took him by the hand, and led him into the pass where the great beast guarded the way. As the Lord led, however, the beast was ever occupied with attacking others, and therefore its back was turned to the Lord and the man. And so they passed by unnoticed, safely to the top. The Lord sent the man to the fathers, who when they saw the man inquired of him, “How came you to be here and yet mortal; the last who came here were brothers who had been slain, and you are yet alive?” And the man answered: “I waited on the Lord and He brought me here safely.”[/quote]

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    • Nice comment. If DS is real, then he will need to bring forth real spiritual evidence to back up his current claims. He has set up the challenge here. If he has the real thing, and the Brethren don’t, which seems to be his new claim, then the burden of proof here clearly shifts to him. He will need to bring something on par with the Book of Mormon, and accompanying witnesses to pull this off; I don’t think he can do it.

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  59. I believe it wise that you take some time and listen to or read all ten talks drom DS before you assess or say what he is or is not going to do. Then you will be edified and knowing of who and what he is. Do not shoot the messenger.

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    • Geoff,

      So you are saying tou are like a non member hearing the discussions for the first time and wondering whether or not you want to put your family through a paradigm shifting epoch to join the Mormon Church? Most converts have gone through some of what you and I are going through. Whether you like it or not, your belief system is being put on the line. Structure truth or non-structure truth is always there. You are exactly in the same situation as a convert. You have to give up your past life to enter into a new one. Not an easy one to make. Whether or not you or I or the rest have had the Baptism of Fire or not, the spirit is a little mute on the subject and non forthcoming. What do you think this means?

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      • Hi sfort,

        I agree with you. This is very similar to a non-Mormon/LDS investigating, reading the Book of Mormon, and praying about it and Joseph Smith, etc. Except we already have that. We are already in the great net.

        Matthew 13
        48 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels; but cast the bad away.
        49 So shall it be at the end of the world.
        50 And the world is the children of the wicked.
        51 The angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them out into the world to be burned. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
        52 Then Jesus said unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

        Perhaps we wait upon the angels (the glorious/heavenly ones, let’s be clear) to come and gather us out of the net and into vessels. I will wait upon the Lord. I will not act in haste as I saw so many doing immediately following the 10th lecture. They did not even pause to consider the matter. I don’t judge them. Maybe they already have a sure witness of the truth of the message DS delivered and immediately knew how to act. Some might accuse me with “His sheep hear His voice.” I’m pretty sure I am His (the Lord’s) sheep. I’m foolish and unwise, but I love Him and long to be with Him and like Him. I seek His face. I will give whatever He asks of me, but I will be sure it is Him, the Lord of Light and Truth. No mortal’s voice will be sufficient for me. So I wait upon Him, for further instructions, light and knowledge, confirmation if you want to call it that, surety. Perhaps I am wrong. I may be late to the party, but I will be sure it is His party.

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      • No, what I think Geoff is saying is that Denver Snuffer is like Joseph Smith in this sense: if Joseph Smith had ONLY had the First Vision, and on that basis alone had started to preach the restoration, what would people have to go on? Would the Lord require people to listen to that testimony. No. The Lord knows how serious this is as the worth of souls is great. My position is that since DS has now moved into a competitive position with the Brethren, then He must now bring forth additional evidence and witnesses to support his position. And it’s going to have to be Big, on the scale of the Book of Mormon. It is not enough for DS to testify of himself, and even others testify of his veracity. Many others, such as John Koyle, and Harmston, have had this level of support, and they were in fact deceived, and produced bitter fruit.

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  60. Julie,
    I appreciate your concern.
    I have pondered and worried over the message Denver delivered in Phoenix for the past 48hrs, ever since I heard him speak. The LORD reminded me of several things over that 48 hr period: Joseph Smith was a nobody when the LORD chose him to do HIS work. If we believe in GOD, how can we doubt there will come a time when we will be rocked out of our complacency and our soft easy life by new truth? The LORD has long promised new scripture, any man who speaks by the authority and POWER of the Holy Ghost produces new scripture; we discount it or discard it at our peril. I was shown by the Spirit some 5 yrs ago that the church has fallen into apostasy when I was DIRECTED to read first 2Nephi 26-33, then Mormon 8-9, then 3 Nephi 16-22. The LORD has personally testified to me that Joseph Smith is and was a Prophet and that the Book of Mormon is the truth and that Joseph obtained it EXACTLY as he claimed he did.
    I recognize when the Holy Ghost is speaking by long experience. The words Denver delivered on Sept. 9, 2014 in Phoenix rang with the power and authority of GOD.
    Having said all that, I also remember very clearly that Denver has said many times that he is nobody and that we should ONLY follow the Savior. He has said many times that he is not seeking to establish a new church and that a new church is not needed, only people who are humble and penitent and come unto Christ.
    I do not worship Denver Snuffer, nor do I seek to follow him. I do thank him from the bottom of my heart for being an “unwilling” vehicle to bring forth new truth in a time when the truth has been in very short supply. I also thank my LORD for once again moving forward HIS strange work and for restoring truth to people who have long been hungering and thirsting for the further light and knowledge HE promised to send.
    To those who find only bitterness in the words of Denver Snuffer, I say, humble your hearts and open your eyes and ears, for this day have words of truth and soberness been spoken unto you, this day have you heard the word of the LORD.
    JRU

    Liked by 1 person

    • I don’t think so, too many inconsistencies. Too many feeling the spirit on both sides. If people on the outside saw this, they would think everyone is nuts.

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      • Unfortunately, you can say the same about Christ when he was among the Jews. There were strong voices calling him deluded and heretical. There was a small minority calling Him the Messiah. To be ‘safe’ you should go with the majority..

        I see Denver as a catalyst. This discussion should not be about Denver, but about what me should and must be doing to prepare for the return of the Savior. I can say that I do not believe that building a mall is the correct answer. I do believe strongly that Zion will be built one pure heart at a time. I strongly agree with Denver that it is not about him, it is about us and our proclivity to prepare ourselves for Zion, no more no less.

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  61. Friends

    Denver snuffer is a good man. Yes we must all continue to pray. I will be willing to share with the Spirit has told me. Denver snuffer is a forerunner, a prophet, and has had some spiritual experiences that he has claimed to have received.

    The Spirit has also told me he is definitely not the mighty and strong one but The Lord is preparing people through him for a great work that is coming. This is not the first thing nor will it be the last thing that we will need I pray mightily about. I have felt the power of the Holy Ghost reading words from Ghandi and Marting Luther King. I was overwhelmed with the Spirit during a talk from Gordon B Hinckley. I have felt the Holy Ghost multiple times in Denver Snuffers talks. But I have also been told each of these above mentioned people has or is teaching some false doctrines.
    None of us needs Denver Snuffer, none of is needs thomas monson. Christ is the King, Prophet, and Leader of His own people. He is guiding thousands of people that probably will never know the name of Denver Snuffer.
    Continue to pray about each of Denver’s teachings and if they should be applied to you. If you feel the Holy Ghost mightily during one of his talks that does not mean the whole talk was true. There will be so many similar situations to pray about before all is said and done. Zion is first built up in our hearts regardless of our religion, and is not predicated on obedience to any mortal man.

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  62. Considering the definition of an Angel – (Messenger) – for me all of this is all quite simple. Perhaps I have been listening to one of God’s angels here on earth speaking to me personally – reminding my heart and my mind of what I once new as a child.

    My life simply needs to be about serving Jesus. My will, simply needs to be God’s will and I need to try with all my heart, might, mind and strength to love as Jesus loves – allowing no man to stand between me and God.

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    • While I agree with your sentiments generally and emotionally and figuratively, that definition of angel is not good enough for me, in this context. Yes, many of our mothers and grandmothers were angel-ic, but they are/were not resurrected beings nor the spirits of just men made perfect, clothed with power and glory and sent to us directly from the presence of God with a message for us, rather they (our angelic mothers and grandmothers) are clothed in the mortal flesh, subject to the veil as we are, etc. I don’t want to confuse the term. I’m talking about D&C 129 and I think this is what Nephi is talking about as well (1 Nephi 11-14, 2 Nephi 31-32).

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  63. If we truly feel God’s words are/were spoken to us then we will act. If we either ignore or don’t feel thus or if the words are not from God we will not act. But because they were luke warm I spew them out of my mouth. Does that ring a bell? Whether or not we act, it is our own journey and everyone’s is different. May the best man and seven women win.

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  64. sfort,

    I’m not trying to contradict you. But for me and my house, at this juncture, a surer knowledge is required to proceed. Denver’s claims are too improbable, too solitary, and too momentous not to warrant undeniable ratification by Heaven. What if he is a Jim Harmston? Similar claims have been made before, in similar shapes and forms, by actors who turned out to be delusional and deceptive, however convincing and appealing. This true pattern has many false iterations since the Restoration started and since Joseph Smith’s death. I believe God is merciful and long-suffering toward our weakness, ignorance, and foolishness. I believe He will answer me one way or the other, with a surety. I was not overcome by the power of God as I sat and listened to Denver speak on Tuesday, neither was my pure-hearted wife – though unprepared content-wise as she was. I felt many people present expected to have a King Benjamin like experience at the end of his lecture, where all cried out as one. It was not so. I was open to it. I looked for angels and for the Lord. I did feel the Spirit several times. There was also a feeling of dread several times. In many ways it was a confusing experience. I felt dizzy when it was over. I just don’t KNOW yet, one way or the other.

    I’m not accusing anyone else for feeling more or differently, but I truly approached the experience with an open mind and heart, and having studied and listened to all the previous talks (and much more). I have asked the Lord and I wait upon His answer. I don’t think I am being lukewarm. I am trying to be wise and careful. I think the Lord is merciful and patient towards those of us prone to careful consideration and pondering, and seeking to commune with Him, before deciding a matter, to be sure it is Him indeed. I don’t believe He requires me to jump off a cliff as a test of faith to see if I heard Him correctly. Abraham KNEW it was the Lord who commanded Him to offer Isaac – he didn’t find out it was the Lord in the act of plunging the knife – that wasn’t the test, in other words, did you hear me? – Abraham KNEW it was the Lord commanding Him before he acted on what was a drastic and potentially tragic command. The test was if he would do as the Lord commanded him, in spite of all, not whether he knew it was the Lord commanding. The Lord doesn’t require us to take certain actions without KNOWING it’s really Him. The consequences I foresee to this course of action are of that magnitude, too many lives and faiths at stake. I will not act in haste. I will not act on mere belief or thought or supposition or feeling. I will exercise faith to obtain knowledge from Him that I am doing His will. Some knowledge must distill upon the soul, as well as some things are worth fasting and praying for many days to know. When He answers me, I will do His will.

    Let me know if, how, or why you disagree with my proposed course of action.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Again… I’m with you Geoff. I will continue my path in the LDS Church until I have definite confirmation of Denver’s words. Before I can make any type of decision, there area a few contradictions in this last message which I need to have cleared up before I even begin to consider Denver’s counsel.

      I find no reason to act in haste either. I will wait for the transcript. In the mean time… I will continue to study, pray in preparation for an answer from the Lord. The answer must be clear, and one that I can understand. I believe when I get an answer, the confusion that I’m experiencing right now will be dispelled.

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    • You hold tight in your current pattern. As you said the stakes here are too high. Remember there have been scores of pretenders in Mormonism. John Koyle comes to mind (died about 1948 I think at 85 years of age). He saw angels and ran the Dream Mine. Here we are about 65 years after his death, and there is still a contingent of believers down at that mine, waiting for the day when the mine will “save the church.” From the accounts I read, Koyle was the nicest, kindest person you would ever know. The only problem is that his “vision” never bore good fruit. Since Snuffer has racheted up his game, he’s going to have to come up with something really Big, for me to take him seriously. Otherwise, how could he be differentiated from any of the last dozen men who have come forward to “save” the church?

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      • Here we are about 65 years after his death, and there is still a contingent of believers down at that mine, waiting for the day when the mine will “save the church.”

        Doug Mendenhall among them (source: Doug’s “Jedi” workshops that Denver–dubiously in my opinion–claims to not be able to comment on even though having read Denver is a prerequisite to attend). Though the “church” it will save I guess has probably changed this week…

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      • “Sue, on September 13, 2014 at 11:54 am said:
        Here we are about 65 years after his death, and there is still a contingent of believers down at that mine, waiting for the day when the mine will “save the church.”
        Doug Mendenhall among them (source: Doug’s “Jedi” workshops that Denver–dubiously in my opinion–claims to not be able to comment on even though having read Denver is a prerequisite to attend). Though the “church” it will save I guess has probably changed this week…”

        I can assure you, Denver has no knowledge of what Doug Mendenhall teaches in his “jedi” workshops.

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  65. No contrdiction was taken, nor accusing. You have never been luke warm; that was for those not moving in any direction. Only the pride of man seeks to be right for a small increase in stature. We are all working through this and your journey is different and right for you.We are all looking at roads in front of us. Your efforts will serve you well and bring forth fruit..

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  66. I have said many things last night and today. If you see all of my comments they arenot pointed at you but gave food for thought for all on each of our journeys. You have incredible interest in doing the right thing for your family. That is honored above anything else.

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  67. Here are my thoughts on this matter:

    Wow, what interesting times we live in. Exciting in some ways and terrifying in other ways. Like many of you, look forward to reading the transcript to get a better feel of what transpired in Mesa. At this point, I see it similar to Geoff – taking a cautious approach.

    Snuffer’s Ephraim talk really helped to answer many questions I have had. After that talk, I began to come around to him – not as a competing entity to President Monson and the church, but content with new light and knowledge. However, there are 2 items that Tim has shared that makes me pause. If you have a different take, then please share –

    Item #1: For the entire time we have only heard that he was a fool, not important, just a messenger, etc. Yet, in this lecture, it turns out that he is important after all– so important that a blessing or a cursing emanates from how we receive him. From Tim, “Denver said, ‘The Lord told me, ‘I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee.’’” This bothers me because it inconsistent from what he has said all along. It feels like we are starting the whole follow the prophet thing all over again. Am I missing something here?

    Item #2: The idea of the church, collectively, losing all priesthood power in the April 2014 conference. Like many have said, there have been abuse of priesthood power before in this regard, but since it was Denver, then the stakes were higher. This doesn’t seem right. The Aaronic priesthood is durable, enduring much abuse, but his excommunication was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Interesting.

    I don’t really mind voices in the wilderness crying completely out of the established hierarchy when it was what it was originally billed as – someone with no authority, whose person and identity is completely irrelevant to the matter. I don’t mind it, I can swallow that pill. However, if the Lord expects people to change the very core of their lives – in all aspects, put their membership at risk, there needs to be – you would think – something more than Brother Snuffer and his 10 talks. Like many have said, how many people even know who he is? The overwhelming vast majority of the church is baptizing apparently without any authority – and no one even knows – and how would they?

    What I find hard to believe is that not one of the 15 brethren or even in the Seventy could have received this call? Not one would have heard the Savior reaching out to them asking if they would take this message before the membership, before the hierarchy. Surely, they are close to the Spirit enough to know if something of this catastrophic magnitude is occurring right underneath them. They all just go down the road completely detached and in their own fantasy world and no one even knows that the church in the Lord’s eyes has completely lost all authority? Really? Are we that wicked? Is the brethren that wicked?

    For me, with my wife and family, I am not going anywhere. If I told my wife this, she’d have a good laugh and then she’d call the state hospital to have me admitted. If I followed this idea, I’d lose my wife, tear my family apart, lose my membership, etc., etc. No, this is not happening with me. But like Karl, I will continue to follow the fascinating drama…

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  68. I dont usually comment on blogs. Particularly of this nature. But I feel prompted to. Unfortunately I am on my phone and can’t quote things.

    we were given a key by Joseph and the early general authorities that when someone comes along and says that the leaders of the church are doing wicked and sets themselves up as the the person acting righteously who knows better, you can be assured that that person is on the high road to apostasy. Denver has clearly followed that road to apostasy. And if it wasn’t obvious from the excommunication, it should be obvious now.

    the true shepherd enters in through the gate. He doesn’t climb over the fence. Theives climb over the fence. The keys are with the brethren and will remain with them at least until Adam ondi ahman.

    general conference is in a few weeks. I can promise you that the the Lord will continue to pour our His Spirit upon the latter day saints. The apostles will speak with power as they always do. And Denver’s movement will come to naught just as every apostate group before it has.

    after all, he is already teaching contrary to the scriptures. The sacrament should not be taken unworthily. That commandment is found in the new testament, the book of Mormon, and the doctrine and covenants.

    the Lord will always welcome you repentance. But those who follow Denver and his group will become like the nephite dissenters. They became more hard and ferocious than the lamanites who never knew Christ.

    if you don’t believe me, just watch. It happens the same every time.

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  69. Nice thought JM. I don’t think that DS was cursing those that cursed him as a threat. It was stated that the Lord needs to prepare a people. The present church does not. We don’t even understand Priesthood and its power. You would think after 170 years, more knowledge would come of Temple ordinances, authority and power of the priesthood, the higher priesthood not disguised as an all inclusive Melchizidek, which doesn’t even exist as the prophets of old did. The current church has done a fine job with elevating the carnal commandments but failed to teach the people concerning entering into God’s presence.

    So DS was stating to all who could hear and read that the Lord is starting to prepare a people and this can only be done by removing unbelief and traditions of men. We have no idea how the Lord operates in redeeming and restoring when it starts over. DS talked about patterns. Before we can be a Zion people we will need faith, miracles, gifts of the Spirit, fullness of the priesthood, live a consecrated life, and distinguish the works of men vs the works of God. This will create Zion. I am not ready and as it looks, not too many are. What will take place to change the hearts and minds of the people? Some people are waiting for Joseph Smith’s return to set the church aright. That is their waiting journey. But hearts and minds need to be changed and as I see it, what other way than to rely on the power of God with true faith to perform His ordinances exactly as he wishes without subversion. Also the Holy Ghost coming upon the people after baptism without the laying on of hands? Where are these wonderful gospel experiences? It can only be started by not relying on tradition and observe the Lord’s true gospel as directed by Him, not Salt Lake.

    Therefore the cursing will be not starting the Zion walk when prompted by the Lord and being submersed in Babylon. The blessing will be more power from on high, the way it was always intended. I honor your thoughts on the matter. You are searching, that is good. The Lord will always bless those who break the mold with altruistic worship of Him on high.

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    • Thanks for responding sfort. I hear what you are saying. There are just so many in the church who look to Salt Lake for direction. I realize that this may be wishful thinking, but it would certainly be nice if the Lord worked through the brethren to change up things here and to establish Zion. This would be super hard and there would be many, maybe even the vast majority, who would refuse to leave their comfort zones and try it, but at least there would be a fighting chance to try. This is at least part of the latter-day Mormon psyche – we have entered into the temple our whole lives covenanting to do just this one day if asked of us. Following the Denver – community way is suicide for the small, think-outside-the-box-more-open-minded saints and utterly ridiculous, not even remotely worth their time to consider for the hard-core saints. It just seems that if it was at least tried in the LDS church first and then it fails, then it could rightfully move onto the remnant or another group to attempt Zion. It just feels like the Church never even had a shot at it – like the Lord has washed his hands of us. It’s like all of this tremendous effort, all this work went into this people, only to have it escape without the membership knowing that they let the opportunity for Zion pass away. This is how it feels and it doesn’t feel right. It was exciting when I felt like the Lord had chosen someone to deliver a message, but with this current message, I can’t do anything about it realistically. The vast majority of my friends and family will not hear the message and will not even take it seriously if they do hear it. What good would starting a Zion-like community if my family is not there?

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      • Nice concept. don’t we all wish. However, the Church as an entity, TM, Corp, has rejected the fullness and is part of Nephi’s and Isaiah’s speech patterns. Tithing is only to be used under commen consent of the Saints. We obviscated this in favor of the Brethren…They know best how to use the Lord’s money and so on and so on.. Read D&C. It clearly deliniates how funds are to be used. Who changed the tithing from increase to income? It was a standing law in Zion. Now we use the term Zion for everything; banks, motorcycle shops, laundramats. We have rejected the fullness. The extreme defensiveness for the entity is astounding. We defend worldy things we possess with the same amount of angst against those who oppose or question. When the church turns and executes those who question, then you know it was never what Joesph wanted and he went out of his way to correct such heinous acts before they took root.

        The Lord is not going to work through the entity that rejected the fullness. The Lord did not work through Noah (Alma), and he did not work through the Kingmen. He works through those who are penitant, humble and meek. We will have to be alert, because something is up and just what it is I am not sure. I will take a careful look during Shemmitah which begins September 25-thru September 13 of next year. It will be a year of trials. The Lord will be needed in every way to get us through this. The Law of the Harvest Talk by Uchtdorf last month was the silliest thing coming from Salt Lake I have ever read. It condescended to the lowest extreme and the 130 section they quoted was not even the law they spoke of. I can’t abide such childishness and redundant speeches coming from Salt Lake. There is so much more the Lord intends to give. DS was at least giving us more and a great deal more I should add. Those ten talks, The Second Comforter, Nephi’s Isaiah, Come Let us Adore Him, 13 Verses, First Three Words, and so on and so on are a bounty of MORE. It doesn’t cause a get up and follow scenario, but they are life giving in bring us to the Lord and the Father. That is my focus. The scriptures are more alive for me after supplementing this books with renewed understanding and increased desire to come back into His presence. This is my journey and I shall see it fulfilled. Thanks for your thoughts and peace be with you.

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  70. Nobody seems to have taken the bait. Denver Snuffer and crew claim to accept the scriptures and want to live by the scriptures. The New Testament clearly indicates:

    “Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.” Matthew 19:9. This same message is repeated several other times in the New Testament.

    Sorry to be crass, but these questions needs to be asked, as a prophet must abide by basic commandments.

    Is Denver Snuffer an adulterer?

    If so, would Christ rely on a man currently living in adultery to restore the Church? I know that Denver has been divorced, and believe he is re-married. Now, according to scripture, if his first wife was the guilty party in fornic*****, he would be absolved. Otherwise, he would be an adulterer.

    I have searched the scriptures for some official repeal of this teaching on adultery, but have been unable to find it. The modern LDS church accepts divorce, but this is an extra-canonical teaching done by a group of people Denver and others claim to be apostate. Surely apostates would not have had the authority to repeal sacred scripture.

    Aren’t these New Testament scriptures still in force? I hope to be proven wrong. Please correct me.

    Liked by 1 person

    • FWIW, in Phoenix Denver said she left him.

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      • So? Read Matthew 5:32. Then think about how it applies here. The issue remains.

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    • His wife divorced him. He did not divorce her. She “put him away”. He did not “put her away”. Makes a huge difference, don’t you think? He doesn’t exactly have any control over what his wife does. She is free to divorce him if she wants to.

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      • Rebecca – By “putting him away,” his wife “causeth him to commit adultery” by when he re-married.

        See 3 Nephi 12:32: Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.

        I have dealt with the topic of whether gender matters at all in who instigates the “putting away.” I argue that it doesn’t. Please see my other post for the details.

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    • I have done more research. I think that Denver himself should be excused from any impropriety because he was acting at the time under the traditional LDS view that remarriage after a divorce is ok, and I do not believe one sins in ignorance.

      Nevertheless, I believe that Denver’s new communities need to think seriously about how they will interpret the law of marriage as given in the Bible, if they believe they LDS Church has been in apostasy.

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  71. This all reminds me of this passage from 2 Nephi 25:

    23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

    24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

    25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

    26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

    27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

    28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

    29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

    Are we alive in Christ? Is it time again for the law to be done away? I think verse 29 holds the key, that is if we do not want to be cast out.

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  72. I’m anxious to read the transcript. I wish I had stuck around to pick up my copy of the CD. I paid for it but left before they finished recording. My notes in this post don’t do justice to what was actually delivered. I think that’s obvious by how many interpretations there are here. Also, I really, really recommend you read his previous lectures. That’s why I posted links to all ten of them in my previous three posts. I don’t care where you stand on this, I promise you this is a momentous moment in the history of Mormonism. It would behoove us all to be well informed.

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    • Tim,

      Whether someone follows DS or not, your plea was sound and necessary. If this is as momentous as you say, does it make any sense to turn a blind eye? I can say I have read alotof DS books and speeches. I am no more closer to rely or follow him as a leader. His books and speeches decry that, Iand I have followed a path but not towards a person. Does that make sense?

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    • In all of this Mormon-focused excitement, Tim, do you have a sense of what Denver’s talks and the 10th talk in particular might mean for the more 99.99% of the human family that aren’t Mormon?

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  73. Tim and all

    Thank you for the discussion. I continue to think on these things. I would implore you Tim, and everybody on both sides of this, to not stop at receiving an answer on one side of this.
    Are people still getting an answer that their are prophets and priesthood in the LDS church? Many claim to be. Yes they could be lying but pray and get an answer first.
    Are some getting answers the denver is right about some things and he is a prophet and has authority. Yes it seems that way. Do not assume that the people on the other side of the fence are lying or being deceived.
    God could want some people to remain in the church and others to experience a new way of worship depending on where they are at on the path and which way may be best for them to come unto Christ FOR NOW.
    Denver seems to be encouraging people to come unto Christ and develop a relationship with Him, and he points out we don’t need the LDS church to do that. Not a bad message. Be sure to get answers from the Spirit on everything and prove all things by the Spirit before just believing anything.
    A prophet can speak truth one day and for whatever reason speak something false the next. Sfort was spot on that receiving a witness that someone is a prophet doesn’t mean much. It is quite possible I could be told a man was a prophet one day and the next the Spirit could tell me that he wasn’t a prophet depending on what that man is doing…

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    • Now that is a great point, Minority. People will be led to where they feel inclined to be led, depending on their journey and progress within that placement. When you have 170 years of magnetism to an earthly entity, the Lord will not coherse you from leaving your whole world if you are tied to it. But those who are searching deeper will be led to other dimensions of their progress, worlds without end.

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  74. Tim,

    After reading this post I feel very sorry for Denver, his family, and anyone who “sustains” him.

    I sustain the LDS church leaders from Joseph Smith to President Monson.

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  75. Sfort

    Amen eternal progress. I have found that two opposing parties can look across the aisle and they each feel sorry for the other because they both presume to be in a position that would be a better fit for anyone else because they themselves have found happiness in that position.
    Little do we know when all is said and done all will bow the knee in gratitude for the grand design that gives each of us the perfect opportunity to progress to where we want to be. Each life is designed so each of us will experience what is best for us. God bless

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  76. Well the general tone and general consensus of this blog has certainly changed. I think it is quite remarkable.

    Prior to Denver’s last talk, it seemed to me that the sentiment in favor of Denver being inspired, from commenters on this blog, was 95% and that those who voiced skepticism were pretty much subdued by the majority of believers.

    Now there are a great many that have doubts and even a significant number that are passionately and boldly challenging many of Denver’s claims.

    A number of curve balls were thrown by Denver at the last talk and I think a number of unsuspecting people were blindsided by some of his outrageous claims.

    In retrospect, I suppose everyone should have seen this coming.

    If the change in dynamic on this blog is any indicator, I can’t help but feel as if there is a significant falling away taking place among many of Denver’s shocked supporters. I have to think that Denver is regretting some of the things he said. He would be wise to revise some of the things he said in the manuscript that comes out, kind of like they do with some of the general conference talks.

    I think that something needs to happen to turn things around for Denver. Perhaps if he produces some kind of a miracle or even starts providing “thus sayeth the Lord” revelations calling specific followers, by name, to various assignments, etc. Those kind of things would possibly reinvigorate his ministry and turn things around.

    Although the underlying argument seems to be whether the true prophet is Tom or Denver, I wonder how many have considered the third possibility.

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  77. Denver testified, as did the designated second witness, Keith, that the message Denver delivered in the 10 talks, specifically, was the word and will of the Lord, that it was from the Lord. And that is the focus of my inquiry with the Lord. That statement and testimony is testable and answerable. Was Denver’s message, 10 talks, from the Lord (as he testified)? That’s my question. I’m not sure why people keep harping on the “ rophet” title and getting distracted by the semantics. I’m not sure why we instantly attach followership to it either. Follow the prophet, or follow a prophet, is not scriptural. It’s another one of our traditions and innovations.

    I’ve stated my position, which is to seek, ask, and knock if Denver’s delivered message was truly from the Lord, to KNOW it one way or the other, the truth of that claim, as well as to find out what His will for me is – what am I supposed to do with that answer, true or false. I find it so interesting that so many are willing to take a stand and claim knowledge so quickly, when it’s only been like 2 days since he concluded his errand/message of over a year. Many haven’t even read the transcript of the 10th talk yet, some haven’t even read any of the talks, and still they “know” the truth of the matter, sorted and settled. If you were a non-Mormon/LDS learning about the Restoration through Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, would you form a firm opinion to quickly? Or would you plant the seed, nourish it with great care, and see if it grows and is good and eventually becomes a tree which bears fruit? (Alma 32). Perfect knowledge does not come after 2 days – maybe 3, in Alma the younger’s case – but not 2. I’m kidding. But seriously, take some time to weigh and ponder and fast and pray. ZION will not come in haste nor by flight. I don’t think the Second Coming is tomorrow. It might be more like 20 years from now – no idea honestly.

    Btw, correcting myself, Denver did not state that he was “the servant” in 3 Nephi 21:9-11. He read that passage and I think many listening inferred that he was referring to himself, but he didn’t say that. It’s just as possible that he might be a forerunner, like John the Baptist, to “the servant” or the “one mighty and strong” whomever they are. I personally think this would make the entire work and movement more credible. But it doesn’t matter what I think or imagine, not a whit. In any case, I don’t really know what he meant by reading those passages.

    Many of us are just reporting what we heard, not necessarily what he said, and how we took it or understood it. I’m sure I got some of it wrong and missed some of the nuances. He chooses words carefully. And these were like bombs dropping as far as impact goes. I was stunned.

    For many members of that audience, who have been abused by LDS priesthood leaders and even cast out of the LDS fold, Denver’s invitation to organize was welcomed with rejoicing and cheers. Some of them, at least one I know personally, have felt terribly trammelled, controlled, abused, and then excommunicated in the same manner that DS relates – for unorthodox beliefs or interpretations of history, not believing in false traditions, not worshiping men and bowing and scraping when they threatened using their “authority” to “get in line” or be spiritually executed (according to the traditional perspective) – many with no hope of returning because the only way would be to submit to more abuse and control and domination. These poor suffering souls now have a place to go and commune with each other and worship God without fear of abuse. They can even repent and be rebaptized without a lengthy church disciplinary/reinstatement process. The new organization promises to be less invasive, controlling, and dominating – ideally not at all. If I were in any of their shoes, I would be very excited and hopeful. DS declared that women would not receive priesthood authority until the Fall was redeemed, i.e. the Millennium, but that their voice was to be much more important. Many of the women rejoiced and cheered as well. Were these things the will of the Lord or was he pandering to the crowd?

    You can look at every single one of these things and spin it two ways, good or evil. But the defining factor of whether something is good is whether God is the author of it. So that is the question, that is the only question that matters. We should be careful not to accuse or misjudge – rushed or premature judgement is prone to be wrong. There’s only one way to settle whether these spiritual claims have any merit or truth to them and it goes right back to James 1:5 and what started the Restoration, the rock upon which He said He would build His church, “for flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.” I believe I can recommend that course as wise, because it would be seeking His wisdom, His truth. With that said, I’ll apologize for being so vocal on this thread and retreat, bidding you all peace and love and light and truth on your journeys, hopefully closer to God.

    Liked by 2 people

    • I take no offense to your thoughtful, well-reasoned comments, Geoff. On the contrary, as one who experienced the 10th talk you’re a primary source. The rest of us will study the transcription of Denver’s words but you were there experiencing the direct impact of his words, the spirit and the reactions of others in the room. If anything, I’ll go back and study your comments further. Do pop in as the spirit prompts further.

      I like your determination to proceed thoughtfully. Before the days of ‘soccer team baptisms’ or ‘baseball baptisms’ there was often an extended waiting period of years to see if investigators of the Mormon missionary discussions were truly ready to change their lives. Apparently there were fewer baptisms but many of them were more committed to activity in their new faith.

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  78. The new church will be called THE RESTORED CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS. Denver will not be the first president, but he and two others will choose the first President and Apostles of the new church.

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    • Since all those who follow Christ are His church (and that is whether you are LDS, Catholic, Protestant, or whatever) there will be no new church since it already exists. The name of that church is “the church of Jesus Christ” and there is no earthly organisation that represents it (not in the sense of “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” at least).

      Christ knows His followers and every organisation whether they include His followers or not has those who are not His and are therefore not His church. As soon as you have 1 person in an organisasion that is set up to follow Christ who does not follow Him, that organisation is no longer true since God does not look on sin with the least degree of allowance. The more people in an organisation the more chance that there is 1 who is not part of the church and therefore makes the whole organisation no longer be a true Church – individuals in that Church who do follow God are still members of His church though.

      The only way you could have one true Church is if you took all those who are of the church and put them into one Church and never allowed a non-follower (thus non-member of the church) into that Church.

      Note that I have reversed the standard convention in that that which is of God is normally capitalised (God, Christ, Him) but in the case of the church I have not capitalised the name.

      If this does not make sense, then I leave it to another to put it into a simpler framework.

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    • Hi Daniel –

      What is your source of information for this? I wasn’t at the lecture. Did Denver say this there?

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      • Denver Snuffer has not revealed to everyone everything he knows and believes. He is giving line upon line, precept upon precept. He has no intention to announce the formation of the Restored Church for at least two years, perhaps three. He has not openly told others that he believes that the Lord Jesus has been on this planet many times, with many different names, and that he came to Utah in 1889-1891 under the name “James Brighouse”. Again, he will not be “Prophet” of the Restored Church, but you can bet he’ll have a hand in who shall be. He sees himself as one of the modern three witnesses. Notice, none of them became apostles or even high Church leaders. Their calling was to Witness, not lead. Google “James Brighouse”.

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        • Sorry Daniel. I’m calling BS. I just finished listening to the CD again. I’ve spent thousands of hours reading every book and every blog post as well as every post or commentary about Denver on various Snuffer reader groups. This is contrary to everything he has said or written of which I am aware. Reveal your source.

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      • Sounds way too much like another strong man, Daniel. And very different from Denver’s own assertions.

        If you are right, then he isn’t just “not revealing everything,” he’s outright lying. He said he would not be forming a church at all in very plain language.

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  79. Tim (or Denver, or anyone else):

    I believe you wish to follow Christ and rely on his words. I know you believe in the Book of Mormon as scripture (and I would assume the New Testament as well). In the Book of Mormon, Christ says the following (3 Nephi 12:31-32; see also Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:9):

    “31 It hath been written, that whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.

    32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.”

    Is it not also written (D&C 42:24): “Thou shalt not commit adultery; and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not, shall be cast out”?

    Is it not also written, “Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord”? (D&C 38:42; 133:5; 3 Nephi 20:41).

    An earnest question: Where in the scriptures were these commandments ever repealed? Yes, yes–I know that the LDS Church does not enforce these writings on divorce. But you and Denver believe that the LDS Church has been in apostasy since Joseph Smith. Surely this group of apostates did not have the authority to change the scripture, under your interpretation. Even if they did, I am not aware of the Body of Saints ever voting to sustain such a change, meaning that the doctrine was never repealed.

    My understanding (and I someone will correct any errors of fact here) is that Denver’s first wife caused that there be a divorce (“put away his [husband].” Assuming it wasn’t because of fornication by DS, it would then have caused him “to commit adultery” when he married his 2nd wife who “marry[ied] [him] who is divorced.”

    I am sorry this is unsavory, but it merits a response. Many around here have condemned the LDS leaders because of their failings (excessive pride, opening a mall, exercising dominion). How can all of you turn a blind eye to possible adultery that CONTINUES TO THIS DAY? Or perhaps you and Denver are a little more selective about which scriptures you rely on?

    How could the Lord choose as a prophet an unrepentant man who has not forsaken adultery? As you well know:

    “The powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.” Surely this would be incompatible with continuing adultery.

    “37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition…” Surely neither Denver nor those who admire him will undertake to cover any possible sins like adultery, right?

    For those with ears to hear:

    “[H]earken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

    “And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar…” (2 Nephi 33:10-11).

    Please correct me. I seek greater light and knowledge.

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    • I will comment on what you have given in your response, keeping to the scriptures you have quoted.

      First, I would encourage you not to put words in Christ’s mouth that were not spoken. Substituting “husband” for “wife” is not a valid subsitution unless God says otherwise, so unless you have other scriptures which validate substitution then do not do it.

      Using what we have been given, if his first wife left Denver and he did not agree to the divorce then he is not subject to “whosoever shall PUT AWAY his wife”. His first wife has committed adultery by leaving him, he has not committed adultery even if he agreed to the divorce since the verse quoted clearly says “causeth HER to commit adultery” and says nothing of him committing adultery.

      In the quoted verses there is only one way given that a man can commit adultery, and that is by marrying a woman who is divorced, so if Denver is married in his 2nd marriage to a divorcee then he is an adulterer and will never (according, from what I remember, to what he himself teaches) be able to inherit Celestial Glory.

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      • Antony –

        I think I understand what you are saying. The problem I see with this interpretation is that almost all the scriptures are addressed to men, rather than women. Yet I believe they apply equally to both sexes. Otherwise, women are left with virtually no scriptural guidance on how to live their lives.

        Hopefully Denver will clarify this teaching in his new church, and even if somehow it doesn’t apply to him, I hope that he will explain why this teaching shouldn’t have force today.

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      • I have done a little more reading to answer your question about whether the law of divorce applies equally to both husband and wife. Commentators on the Bible have noted that in Jewish law, women did not have the ability to divorce their husbands, and since Matthew was directing his Gospel predominantly to the Jews, he only addressed the circumstance applicable to them.

        Mark, on the other hand, addressed his Gospel predominantly to the Gentiles, where in matters of divorce women enjoyed equal rights to their husbands. Mark shows that Christ’s teaching apply to both the husband and the wife (Mark 10:11-12):

        11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

        Luke then teaches that marrying a divorced person is an act of adultery: “Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery” (Luke 16:18).

        What is a person supposed to do? Remain single, apparently. “10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband…” (1 Cor. 7:10-11)

        The bottom line is that, as recorded in the New Testament and echoed in the Book of Mormon, divorce and remarriage are not permitted, as marriage is a divine institution rather than a man-made one. As Jesus states, “What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” (Matthew 19:6).

        Because I believe in the authority of LDS prophets and apostles, I take their word that civil divorce does not equate to adultery. But people like Denver who believe that prophets from Brigham onwards lost authority (or had an incomplete authority) need to explain why these scriptures are not still in force.

        How could people with no authority or incomplete authority overrule Christ’s prior teachings on the matter?

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    • I have done more research. I think that Denver himself should be excused from any impropriety because he was acting at the time under the traditional LDS view that remarriage after a divorce is ok, and I do not believe one sins in ignorance.

      Nevertheless, I believe that Denver’s new communities need to think seriously about how they will interpret the law of marriage as given in the Bible, if they believe they LDS Church has been in apostasy.

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  80. Apologies in advance for the length of this.

    Denver seems to be encouraging people to come unto Christ and develop a relationship with Him, and he points out we don’t need the LDS church to do that. Not a bad message.

    I gather that was one of the bombshells in the 10th lecture. I’ll await the transcript & recordings. But, having studied all his writings (and indexed their scriptural references) I know that this hasn’t always been the message he’s put out to the world.

    Of the many quotes I’ve highlighted in my dog eared copy of Second Comforter this one from chapter 9, page 192 changed how I experienced the three hour block:

    It is that unlikable bishop, or the unworthy and uninspired high councilman, or the abrasive and unlikable semi-heretic, complaining every Gospel Doctrine class about some pet project or issue who provides us the greatest opportunities to begin to develop charity. These people are there as gifts from God to help us become more like Him. Having unlikable Saints about us is exactly as it should be. Having leaders who fail in their callings is also just as it should be. These things are a gift to you, to provide you a chance to return love and charity to those who need it, and probably will never recognize the gifts you are developing through their shortcomings.

    Then of course, there was this on page 6:

    You can never outgrow the programs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You can never outgrow the need for the Church of Jesus Christ’s saving ordinances. It is His medium for delivering the Gospel. Therefore, it will not be something you leave behind.

    Or this from the conclusion of Come, Let Us Adore Him (emphasis in the original):

    There is no perfect human organization. His Church in the New Testament and His Church today are both manned by flawed men and women. That is as it must be, and as it should be. If we cannot show charity to the honest and sincere efforts of flawed fellow-servants, then we are no true disciple of His. His teachings presume there will be offenses given. We are supposed to take no notice of them, and to refuse to be offended by them. He will make all things right in the end. For us, in the meantime, we should endure the flaws, errors, pride and foolishness of others charitably. His Church cannot function if we are not tolerant of one another.

    Or this from Eighteen Verses:

    From this General Conference talk, it should be apparent to everyone the hand of God lingers over the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This work is bigger than any single person or group. It is the handiwork of the Son of God. He authored it. He intends to see it succeed.

    Whether there is an ebb and flow in the inspiration of its leaders as some critics contend is of no matter. Whether such critics are right or wrong, is irrelevant. The members are entitled to receive, and continue to receive, on an individual basis, on-going companionship with the Holy Ghost and the gifts of the Spirit. If you do not, then the problem lies within you. It does not lie elsewhere. It is not and never will be the leaders’ fault.

    Or from Beloved Enos, in chapter 10 discussing the sealing power & those holding authority:

    Those holding sealing power in the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve are required to attract a following and to preside in the Church. Those who have sealing power as a part of a second anointing are not permitted to establish a competing organization, attempt to attract followers, or claim the right to preside outside their own family. In this way the affairs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints remains a “house of order.” [footnote 75: D&C 132:8]

    The idea that these keys could be passed down from sealer to sealer in an independent line of authority allowing a separate organization to be established in competition with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not only wrongheaded, it would run contrary to the scriptures. There is only one man authorized to exercise the keys. (See D&C 132: 7, supra.)

    There are others who hold sealing power independent of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. John the Revelator tarries to minister to heirs of salvation and he holds these keys independent of the current earthly Church. As explained in modern revelation [… quotation of D&C 7:1-6 elided …]. In modern revelation the Lord confirmed John remains to minister to men who dwell on the earth. As part of that ministry John has authority to minister using the sealing authority originally conferred upon him on the Mount of Transfiguration.[footnote 76 omitted] Therefore John is another person holding sealing authority independent of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He could use sealing authority as a part of his ministry. However, it would be improper to presume or expect John to establish a competing organization to the Church. We should expect his efforts to unite the Lord’s people, not divide them. Anything otherwise would contradict the basic revelations organizing the work for the latterdays.

    Or from the conclusion to Beloved Enos:

    However important doctrine may be, you should always remember it is not the most important component of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul reminded us that understanding mysteries and possessing knowledge alone will not save anyone. He wrote: [1 Cor 13: 2] Enos concerned himself with the welfare of others at the very moment when he was in closest contact with the Lord. His petition for God’s blessing went out on behalf of his enemies as well as his brethren. I am concerned that some may think understanding the doctrine is the same thing as having favor with God. Without charity toward your fellow man – and not just your family, friends and those who are like you, but also toward those who are so very unlike you that they become your enemies [Russell M. Nelson?] – without charity toward them, your understanding is of no real benefit. Quite the contrary, a great understanding of the deepest doctrines may condemn you all the more.

    Or from Nephi’s Isaiah, footnote #139:

    Although the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is an essential tool for the salvation of men, the Church itself was never intended to be the object of worship. Nor were the men who lead her. But the leadership has never asked to be worshiped. Oddly, there are many who are willing to give what has never been asked to be given, who wrongly turn the Church and her leaders into objects of veneration and worship.

    Or as recently as June 27, 2014:

    I am grateful for every moment I belonged to the LDS Church. I hold no resentments toward it and believe that struggling to remain a member of the organization is worth the effort. … I believe Joseph and Hyrum died in a worthy cause. I think the energy and light that exploded onto the world through Joseph Smith’s ministry has powered the LDS Church since his passing. Joseph’s profound effect was so great that, even in the absence of any leader even a fraction of Joseph’s stature, the LDS Church has been able to amass followers and do some considerable good. The absence of another leader like Joseph has slowed the momentum, and now the energy is almost entirely gone. But that does not change the goodness yet to be found inside the LDS Church still.

    [Though I’m not sure what to make of his advice to remain that he wrote in June in light of the fact that he announced in Mesa that the Lord appeared to him on May 1st to tell him that he (Denver) had wrested the keys of the Aaronic Priesthood from the First Presidency in April.]

    A few other things, based on reports from those who were there, that raise red flags:

    Repeatedly on his blog and in his lectures he has said that he does not intend to start a new Church, yet he now holds the key and can announce how ordinances should be performed in the “groups” that he is encouraging people to start?

    Together with a message that seems to directly contradict the message of Second Comforter (as quoted above) it becomes a trust issue. Are we only now seeing what he always thought & felt? Was he just luring his readers in, building up trust and establishing himself as a writer who could present profound truths, only to gain our confidence? (A bait and switch?) Has the mask slipped? Or did he write what he truly felt and believed and had experienced, and only afterwards did the Lord reveal the seeds of this paradigm shattering world view? I agree with a previous commenter: I wish he weren’t a lawyer. Dang their cunning arts! (cf. Alma 10:15 🙂

    The jab at “Spencer” in Ephraim struck me as petty. Or what I sensed might have been a jab at Avraham Gileadi when he wrote about 2 Nephi 25:1-2 on his blog in May 2014.

    [Consider 2 Nephi 25:1-2 in light of 3 Nephi 23:1-3 (verses he’s never talked about). While I agree Nephi having had the heavens open would not have needed a knowledge of the manner of prophesying among the Jews, since Nephi only included a subset of the writings of Isaiah that we are to diligently search I’m much more inclined to agree with Gileadi that such an understanding would be beneficial a beneficial interpretive key (as per the BoM!) in a diligent inquiry into the book of Isaiah.]

    Another 2nd hand red flag: the reported anger he still demonstrates in Phoenix over having been excommunicated. If God foreordained him to wrest the Aaronic Priesthood from TSM, HBE & DFU, no small task!, a role equivalent in all of world history only to John the Baptist–why be angry at those who necessarily had to play a role that allowed him to succeed in his monumental task? I sensed the hurt and anger listening to the first talk but chalked it up to the (very understandable human emotion) of receiving the news that very day. But a year later I would have expected that to have dissipated (especially in light of Luke 6:27-28).

    Since I wasn’t there, I’ll wait for the transcript. I’ve read this far, I’ll read and index to the end. I will ask, seek & knock. But like Geoff, I’ll wait to KNOW.

    PS: Tim, let Carol know that I agree she is a prophetess. God bless you both.

    Liked by 3 people

  81. Geoff

    Hey I think you are exactly right about waiting for a sure witness from the Holy Ghost. That is key. Some people have been praying and received answers about some of this months ago.
    Some people believe it or not get an answer from God very quickly on some subjects for whatever reason.
    I would just suggest one thing to think on. If someone asked God “is the doctrine and covenants true?” What would be the answer? I don’t think God could possibly say yes or no with all of the changes and additions etc.
    As we read and study the doctrine and covenants we learn truths from God as they are witnessed by the Spirit.
    That does not mean the entire Doctrine and covenants is all true.
    Same with the question “were all 10 talks the word of The Lord?” Are you asking if it was all scripture? Are you asking if the overall message was true?
    I think it would might be a wiser choice to break down the doctrines taught and pray about each one until an answer is received. Let’s not be silly and presume even a great prophet could not slip up in the excitement and say something false. If denver taught a falsehood this does not condemn him or taint any truth he shared. But I would have a hard time believing that the Holy Ghost would tell someone that everything denver said in all 10 lectures was the word of The Lord.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Responding because I was addressed.

      I may have misheard or misunderstood, but I thought I heard DS actually testify that the 10-talk message was the word of the Lord delivered to him by Him. And I’m pretty sure Keith, the second witness, said the same thing and he closed his testimony using sealing language (“in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.”). I may relisten or wait for the transcript to read and find that part. But I believe the way I’ve phrased my questions to the Lord gives Him plenty of leeway, plus He knows what I mean beyond language. We want to know if Denver’s overall message is from the Lord and not some gifted-Jim-Harmston-or-Jesse-Strang-like detour, delusion, or deception, and particularly what Lord would have us do about it.

      I also heard him declare that this is basically the commencement of the work of the Father as Christ mentioned in 3 Nephi 21. Again, I was reeling a bit as I listened, so I don’t trust my absorption or comprehension completely. Which is another reason I am slow to act, I believe it deserves careful consideration, just like the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith would if new to someone. I think the claims are of similar magnitude, only this is about ZION. DS is basically inviting listeners to take actions that will (in my strong opinion or feeling) lead to their being cast out of the LDS Church. This is Abrahamic type stuff. This is turn families and friendships upside down type stuff. If it’s the truth, then it’s worth it. If it’s false – again, in general, not specific truths he’s taught – there’s no doubt he has taught truth, even wonderful deep truth – but if it serves a deceptive end – to derail – to destroy – bottom line, if it his cause is not of God, as he has declared – then it is so not worth it.

      Btw, I have asked myself – does the Enemy know all this stuff, the truths that DS has taught? I think he very well could. So 90% of the content being taught being deep and true and cool and new and having the appearance of being revelation, is not a sure sign to me. Jim Harmston wowed his followers with deep doctrine and a lot of truth. You get what I mean. Look at the ruin and broken faiths and families that pretenders like him have left in their wakes. DS has now made bold, testable claims, as I understand them. Many of these pretend prophets/leaders have also invited their potential followers to pray about it and many of those followers have claimed spiritual experiences in confirmation of the false leader’s claims. I will not be deceived. I won’t let any man trifle with my soul or the souls of my family. I’m not willing to risk tearing my family and friends apart to see if something is true and find out by experience that it was false. This is too big, in my opinion. Sure revelation and the spirit of prophecy are required for me in this circumstance. Why should I follow the instructions in the 10th talk when I have not yet received what DS shared in his first book, TSC? He testifies he received the Lord, the Second Comforter, years before he was even excommunicated. If God is no respecter of persons, then why should not I be able to follow that same pattern? “There will be no more doctrine given until after He shall manifest Himself unto you in the flesh.” The way I see it, I’m not ready to gather until I know the Lord. Ultimately, that has also been a theme of the 10-part talk/message. Can I be thus prepared before gathering and sacrificing my lifelong LDS church tradition and membership? The First Comforter came to me to confirm the truth of my path in the telestial/earthly organization. I seek the Second Comforter and the ministry of angels to lead me into the terrestrial organization, ZION and the Church of the Firstborn. These are just my thoughts and feelings on the matter. I do think this is momentous stuff, if it’s the real deal.

      If the answer we receive – not just me, but my wife too – because this affects me, my wife, my children and generations to come, many family and friends – this will be a 9.0+ earthquake in our lives and circles – is “His (DS’s) message is true, it’s from Me, this is My work, come start to help build the communities that will form ZION” (I’m paraphrasing) – well, if I KNOW it’s really Him, I’ll do whatever He says, whenever He says. I want to follow my Lord and my God, pure and simple. And there will be at least two witnesses, my wife and I united, as one.

      If the answer is something like DS is another false prophet like Harmston, he’s gone off the rails, and I want you to stand up and fight to keep people from being deceived – and again, I know it’s the Lord – then I will do that, inspite of DS’s warning that he said the Lord told him “whoever blesses you will be blessed, whoever curses you will be cursed.” Knowledge casts out doubt and fear. Or if He just wants me to not follow and be quiet, I’ll do that. His will, not mine.

      Anyway, to me it’s a two-part inquiry: What is the truth of the matter? (not mincing words or playing semantics games with the Lord – He knows what I mean and what I seek). And what is His will for me (and my wife and children) – what would He have me do about it?

      Sorry again for the lengthy post. I’m wordy, like Tim, but it helps me sort things out, writing them. So thanks for tolerating.

      Liked by 2 people

  82. “My understanding (and I someone will correct any errors of fact here) is that Denver’s first wife caused that there be a divorce (“put away his [husband].” Assuming it wasn’t because of fornication by DS, it would then have caused him “to commit adultery” when he married his 2nd wife who “marry[ied] [him] who is divorced.”
    I am sorry this is unsavory, but it merits a response.”

    France, you keep bringing this issue up and nobody seems to want to respond to you.

    The truth of the matter is that divorce is common in the Mormon religion and there are probably several passionate followers of Denver who are also in a second or third marriage.

    Furthermore, we all have friends and relatives that have been divorced, yet married again and sealed again in the Temple, etc.

    The fact of the matter is that your question simply makes most people feel very uncomfortable because the passage of scripture you are quoting is not taken seriously in modern Mormonism.

    I for one, think you bring up a valid concern although it is a touchy one to bring up in a public forum. I would personally love to get a character witness from Denver’s first wife and to know if Denver’s first wife sustains him as a prophet despite their failed marriage, etc. I think there are other issues that people would be wise to search out. For instance, shortly after Denver’s first claimed visit by the Savior, he apparently was involved in some questionable legal transactions which I won’t go into… you can google and read about them if you are good at search the Internet.

    The point is, that if someone is making claims of seeing Christ and being a messenger of Christ, it behooves us to do our due diligence and see if the character of the person involved is above reproach but we need to judge righteously.

    Obviously, no one is perfect and we all make mistakes, but we still need to make righteous judgments about those who make the kind of claims that Denver makes. To Tim’s credit, he actually did a post detailing some of these issues that people have brought up regarding Denver’s past.

    The bottom line, as others have brought up, is whether Denver really has spoken with God and is doing His bidding.

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    • To Tim’s credit, he actually did a post detailing some of these issues that people have brought up regarding Denver’s past.

      Link?

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      • Sue,

        Here is the link

        https://latterdaycommentary.com/2013/09/23/arguments-against-denver-snuffer/

        However the legal issues I referred to need to be googled… I have never seen them discussed

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      • It was your mention of legal issues that I wasn’t familiar with. I’m not sure my search engine skills are up to the task of finding the information. If you or anyone else can provide some links it would be appreciated.

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      • It’d be disappointing to find out Denver was a moneydigger in his youth.

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    • 3rd Possibility –

      I appreciate your response. Finally, a response! Like so many of the people who are attracted to Snuffer who want an acknowledgement of something not being right (church history, malls, egotism, etc.), I too want an acknowledgement.

      I want an acknowledgement from Denver Snuffer and his followers that they’re every bit as selective in reading the scriptures as the people they condemn.

      I want an acknowledgement that their theory of scripture, LDS Church history. and restoration is plainly inconsistent. You have a group of people here (should I call them the “D.S. “Double Standard” Snuffer-ites?”) who proudly proclaim that they follow scripture (making strained interpretations of passages at times, and critically pointing out where the modern LDS aren’t doing things that are scriptural).

      YET…when it turns out that the main guy responsible for all of this actually doesn’t follow scripture himself, and that his theory of scripture, church apostasy, and restoration necessarily leads to the conclusion that he does NOT have priesthood authority, what do we hear from all these disciples?

      Utter, deafening silence.

      Please, Tim. Please prove me wrong.

      Prove to me that you (i) take the Book of Mormon and D&C as literally as you’ve said you do; (ii) believe that an apostasy took place after Joseph Smith died; and (iii) believe Denver Snuffer now has authority. These things appear inconsistent to me, given my discussion of divorce and adultery. Something has to give.

      You have previously said you did not want to lead people away from Christ and God. This community of Denver Snuffer people has railed against the LDS for all their faults. You owe it to yourself, your wife, and your readers to be able to explain a pretty simple question about whether the Lord’s most recent prophet is an adulterer, according to your own teachings about scripture and apostasy. I am begging for an answer.

      Christ will not contradict the teachings he has expressed in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants by his prior Holy Prophets. They are eternal principles. If a man claims to be receiving visions from God and is living a life that contradicts the principles contained in Holy Scripture, you should check your wallets.

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      • Christ will not contradict the teachings he has expressed in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants by his prior Holy Prophets.

        Especially not when the Book of Mormon’s teachings on the subject are spoken directly by Him! (The Bible alone could otherwise be explained away by the 8th Article of Faith…)

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      • In 2012 Denver quoted Joseph Smith in a post: “Joseph also said: ‘If a man commit adultery, he cannot receive the celestial kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be the celestial kingdom.'”

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      • I have done more research. I think that Denver himself should be excused from any impropriety because he was acting at the time under the traditional LDS view that remarriage after a divorce is ok, and I do not believe one sins in ignorance.

        Nevertheless, I believe that Denver’s new communities need to think seriously about how they will interpret the law of marriage as given in the Bible, if they believe they LDS Church has been in apostasy.

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    • I have done more research. I think that Denver himself should be excused from any impropriety because he was acting at the time under the traditional LDS view that remarriage after a divorce is ok, and I do not believe one sins in ignorance.

      Nevertheless, I believe that Denver’s new communities need to think seriously about how they will interpret the law of marriage as given in the Bible, if they believe they LDS Church has been in apostasy.

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  83. France

    I agree with the scriptures, but are you implying that he is not repentant because he has not divorced his 2nd wife? How do you know that the way for him to repent is to get another divorce?
    Perhaps he sinned, took it to The Lord, and repented. Perhaps God would not want him to divorce the 2nd wife just because he sinned in marrying her… That is just my opinion but I don’t know. I would think he would not want another marriage dissolved just because it was put together in the wrong way. Does that make sense?

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    • MinorityofOne –

      I appreciate your response. The teachings of Denver Snuffer and those who follow him claim to be built on scripture. In many instances, they have argued about the apostasy of the LDS Church because certain scriptural requirements were not met. I am now pointing out a few scriptural requirements Denver seems to have overlooked. I don’t know how this movement can claim that the LDS Church apostasized by not following certain scriptural requirements, yet simultaneously overlook the scriptural requirements pertinent to its key player, Denver Snuffer.

      The scriptures teach that repentance requires one to FORSAKE the sin (and often to confess it). The relevant sin here should be pretty obvious based on my prior quotations of scripture. Here’s more scripture:

      “24 Thou shalt not commit adultery; and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not, shall be cast out.

      25 But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive;

      26 But if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out.”

      Where has this scripture been repealed? Where have the other scriptures been repealed? Why have scriptures at all if people can set up private agreements with God that certain commandments don’t need to be obeyed? Has the sin been FORSAKEN? Has the sin been confessed? Does Denver even acknowledge his 2nd marriage to have been made in sin? Does he claim to have repented of it?

      AND…lest you all be so generous about letting Denver off the hook easily with a private confession, why haven’t you been so generous with the modern LDS leaders? How do you know they haven’t privately confessed their sins as well? The double standards (“D.S.”) here are making my head spin.

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    • I have done more research. I think that Denver himself should be excused from any impropriety because he was acting at the time under the traditional LDS view that remarriage after a divorce is ok, and I do not believe one sins in ignorance.

      Nevertheless, I believe that Denver’s new communities need to think seriously about how they will interpret the law of marriage as given in the Bible, if they believe they LDS Church has been in apostasy.

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  84. France

    Just so you know where I am coming from, I do not claim to be a follower of denver or thomas s monson, though I have found edification with them both.

    The scriptures you quoted said basically if a man gets a divorce (assuming his wife did not commit fornication) and then he gets married, then he has committed adultery.
    I interpret that clearly to mean that the act of getting married is committing adultery. Ok so denver snuffer committed adultery by marrying his 2nd wife. But nowhere do the scriptures say that remaining married after the point of the initial marriage is adultery.

    In other words denver shouldn’t have married another woman. He committed adultery when he did. (I am not pretending to know if he did this is for arguments sake). Who is to say that the way to repent is to kick out his wife. After all she is now his wife, even if the solemnizing of that marriage was adulterous it doesn’t change that fact.
    So you are claiming to know, without scriptural evidence, that he should now get a divorce in order to repent. How do you forsake something that is already done.
    If I fornicated then the act is done. It happened. I forsake it through deciding it would have been best to not do that, and not repeating the mistake. Denver may have learned to not repeat the mistake by remarrying if another divorce occurred. You have no scriptural evidence that he should now get a divorce in order to repent.

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    • Hi Minorityofone,

      Thanks for your comment. I think your comment raises an issue with varying interpretations: Is the adultery in remarriage a one-time act (remarriage) or a continuing state (the unlawful relations within that marriage)? It appears there are plenty of differing views on the internet. Because adultery in other contexts appears to be due to the act of unlawful union, I don’t see how getting a civil marriage certificate would be the act of adultery, rather than the unlawful union.

      Incidentally, the Tyndale Bible Dictionary defines adultery as “any act of sexual intercourse between a married woman and man other than her husband, and all sexual intercourse involving a married man and a woman other than his wife.” This emphasizes the unlawful union aspect. But I acknowledge other interpretations exist.

      This discussion aside – do Denver and those sympathetic to him believe that he committed any act of adultery? Did he actually ever repent of it?

      Just to be perfectly clear, I do not believe people who are remarried are adulterers, BECAUSE I believe that the modern LDS church has been invested with authority in its teaching that it is not. If, like Denver and others, you claim that the LDS Church has not had any authority since Joseph Smith (or if you claim that it is a lesser authority), then I don’t see how you can say that these scriptures have been superseded. It’s a contradiction. In addition, there also continues to be the potential problem of the fact that, as far as I can see, no official doctrine voted upon by the Body of Saints has ever overturned these teachings on divorce and adultery.

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    • I have done more research. I think that Denver himself should be excused from any impropriety because he was acting at the time under the traditional LDS view that remarriage after a divorce is ok, and I do not believe one sins in ignorance.

      Nevertheless, I believe that Denver’s new communities need to think seriously about how they will interpret the law of marriage as given in the Bible, if they believe they LDS Church has been in apostasy.

      Like

      • France, if you haven’t read the final lecture yet, you should, because Denver addresses this issue directly. When I read it, I was satisfied with his answer.

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  85. I’ve spent two days, plus two years in deep, earnest prayer. This is what distills upon my soul:

    Brother Joseph said that no unhallowed hand can stop this work from going forward nobly and boldly. If our leaders have erred, even they cannot stop this work. Joseph erred and Emma was commanded to forgive him his trespasses even as God forgave hers.

    I forgive our leaders of their errors even as I seek the Lord’s forgiveness of my own. I leave their judgments to God, but not to Denver, nor Tim, nor myself, nor any person on earth. I made my covenants with God, not to prophets and apostles, whether they be in Salt Lake or Pheonix. I will not walk away from a church that brought me truth, covenants, understanding of Jesus’s gospel, and helped me learn how to seek, ask, knock, ponder, pray, meditate, fast, help the poor and needy, serve my family, my ward family, and my community, strengthened me as a disciple of Jesus Christ, gave me the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, worshipping my Savior in the Holy temples, guided me in times of sorrow to find God’s light and peace, and taught me how to become a more worthy disciple. The church has blessed me in more ways than I can express BECAUSE THEY TAUGHT ME HOW TO COME TO KNOW AND LOVE JESUS CHRIST—EVEN TO COME UNTO CHRIST.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with this church that can’t be fixed by what’s right with it. I will not forsake this hallowed work of God. I know by God’s holy witness that my baptism counts and is recorded in Heaven. The same for my endowment and sealing. There may come a millenial day when Jesus asks us to be baptized again, or to make further covenants by a greater priesthood. If such direction comes, it will be by Jesus Christ or through His ordained prophets, even those fallible, erring humans who cannot stop His work from going forward in nobility.

    I stand with this great church of Jesus Christ.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thanks. I’m about at the same place you are. God bless.

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  86. I am reading Denver’s Second Comforter book. What a wonderful, amazing book. Tim, I encourage you to re-read Chapter 19 and ask yourself if that is the same man you’re following today. Denver spoke truth then in support of the church and its leaders. Please re-read this chapter.

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    • In Mesa Denver said the church is not the same church he was baptized in and most importantly he said the church is different now than before 2012. He wrote the 2nd Comforter in 2006. When the Israelites under Zedekiah and before, got worse and worse, did the corrections from the prophets become more strident?

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    • Yes, I believe you are discerning the change correctly. God bless.

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  87. I think Michael C, Kevin, and others have pointed out a profundity that cannot be denied. The Denver Snuffer that wrote The Second Comforter is not the same Denver Snuffer that spoke in Phoenix. He is being led by a different spirit.

    The general premise of supporting and sustaining the church with all of it’s perfections, has been abandoned now that disciplinary action has been taken. There are countless contradictions between what has previously been taught over the years and what has been taught since the excommunication that cannot be easily explained.

    This is exactly what happened with Harmston.

    I think that delving into Snuffer’s earlier writings in his books and blog shows a very disturbing transition.

    Another thing that struck me is how Denver immediately left after giving his talk in an air of mystique and elitism instead of humbly mingling with his hearers and answering questions in a one on one setting. Is that how he plans on managing the communities that he obviously plans on overseeing? Will he be hiding in an ivory tower behind a hand picked group of “front men” and “front women” to avoid the difficult questions?

    He once promoted himself as a regular guy that drove a Harley Davidson, that was no better than anyone else, but I sense an air of superiority that has developed.

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    • Galatians 5:22

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    • You ignore the obvious. We are changed based upon our experiences, the church has changed since in rejecting a true messenger from God it has had its authority ripped from it. for God will not be mocked. When he was writing previously the church still had authority from God and hence he encouraged people to stay. Now it does not . That is the change. As Emerson said ” foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds” Please accurately reflect his words.

      Liked by 1 person

    • “The Denver Snuffer that wrote The Second Comforter is not the same Denver Snuffer that spoke in Phoenix. He is being led by a different spirit.” Yes, that is my conclusion too. I’m glad that there are others like you that are seeing the train wreck before it happens here with Denver. Best.

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  88. Man does not like the idea that his belief system has flaws. He does not want any change. I dare say that the church at the meridian of time was the same way.

    As in Joseph’s day, many converts brought their Shaker, Cochran, and Campbellite traditions with them. Now we are faced with a crossroad. Keeping traditions will not allow the Spirit to dictate, I don’t care how much you think you know. The Pharisees knew plenty. Focusing on and deriding the man will not allow spiritual truth to flow freely. Heaven knows if you did that to Joseph, there would be no converts. They focused on the word. John the Baptist was a wild man. I believe that many of you during the times of the prophets would also have found yourselves on the other end.

    We are at a pinnacle. Watch that we don’t be the ones where the Savior said that you would not have killed the prophets had you been there?Your fathers killed the prophets. What the Savior spoke on was that when you are faced with something in real time, especially something of major import, don’t presume anything. It is easy to look back. Is it as easy to find yourself in the present with hindsight?

    Liked by 1 person

    • JS-M 1.22: For in those days there shall also arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant.

      Are we the elect according to the covenant?

      In our enthusiasm for more light and knowledge than our correlated diet is giving us, isn’t it just as possible that we could be deceived by one able to quote substantial amounts of scriptural truths?

      Like Geoff said elsewhere, you can spin this multiple ways.

      Like

  89. @3rd Possibility

    Regarding Denver Snuffer: Have you read The Second Comforter? Have you read any of Denver Snuffer’s books? Have you attended any of his talks? Have you pondered or prayed about any of this?

    My thoughts are no.

    Regarding the LDS church: Do you believe there are no consequenses when church leaders make mistakes? Do you believe that they cannot be removed? Do you believe that they hold the patent on “prophet, seer, translator and revelator”? Have you pondered or prayed about any of this?

    My thoughts are no as well.

    Like

    • I’ve read Second Comforter, and I read PTHG THREE times, and started a fourth and finally concluded that Denver Snuffer had made so many historical and doctrinal errors in PTHG that he could not be trusted. Now after years of claiming he doesn’t want followers, he will never organize believers, he is moving that direction. I have pondered and prayed extensively, and my conclusion, by revelation through the Holy Ghost is that the current leadership of the Church have real and legitimate authority, and though prone to error, like all human beings, they are not in any significant degree in a state of apostasy. Each man must seek and find his own understanding and hear the divine voice for himself in this regard. Best.

      Like

  90. I have attended one lecture, read many of his posts and papers, read his last book and portions of his first book.

    I agree with much of what Snuffer has said, but I disagree with much of what he has said.

    I am not defending the leaders of the LDS church. I agree there are problems and there are consequences.

    Anyone can be removed.

    I believe that when it is time for the final work to be done, God will remove, all of the false prophets.

    Liked by 1 person

  91. Do not judge denver or anyone based off of teachings they taught and then seemingly abandoned.

    To me that is a good sign of someone receiving correction. At one point in my life I thought I knew that everything in the church was true because I felt the Spirit as a member so often.

    Only through God’s grace did I begin to learn that there are falsehoods being taught in the LDS church. And like Sfort pointed out wickedness snuck into the church very early on.

    Do not give credit to an organization where only God deserves the credit. Christ brings His sheep to Him from a variety of religions and settings. All earnest seekers of truth and God may seem to be on different roads but they will meet with joy at some point on their journey.

    Like

    • Do not judge denver or anyone based off of teachings they taught and then seemingly abandoned. To me that is a good sign of someone receiving correction.

      As I noted in a previous comment, the change in apparent content and tone from his original books to the tenth talk this past Tuesday is profound. Ordinarily I would agree with you that a change in teachings should, by default, be viewed charitably as an evolution in thinking or experience.

      However, Denver represents in the concluding chapter of The Second Comforter:

      You will generally not be able to tell anyone, except for close family members, about these things; although if commanded to do so, you must.

      and then a few pages later:

      If the author had not been asked to write this work, the author’s own experience would have remained a private matter, as it was for years before the writing of this book.

      He writes from a position of experience: ‘this is how I did it and how you can too. And oh, I’m writing this by way of a divine commission.’

      So there is a huge unresolved trust issue because the book that established his credibility with his readers [as one who conceivably could be a modern Abinadi or a Samuel], as it were, is so incongruous with reports of his doctrinal pronouncements in Mesa. The amount of “approved” chicanery (either then or now) required to reconcile his 2006 writings with his September 2014 teachings exceeds, by orders of magnitude, any scriptural example of divine prevarication that I can find.

      Like

      • Nothing more than a crescendo of strident prose, that’s all.

        Like

      • Yes, trust and credibility are important. Denver has destroyed his own by his flip-flop on these important topics. Best.

        Like

  92. Hail Guest
    We ask not what thou art:
    If friend –
    we greet thee hand and heart
    If stranger –
    such no longer be
    If foe –
    our love shall conquer thee.

    Small home, great joy!
    Beginning September 21, 2014
    prayer meeting/scripture study
    at our home in Orem, Utah
    1:00 – 4:00
    Ron and Lynne McKinley
    (801) 367-0538

    Like

  93. I decided last night that I’d been so dialed into the conversation here and on FB that it was becoming unhealthy. So I stepped back… for about 20 hours. 😀 (I recommend anyone else feeling turmoil from all the online noise take a break as well!)

    But 20 hours was enough time to enable me to get up this morning and spend some quiet time just thinking about everything, without all the clamor of online voices, and I had what feels to me like a major insight.

    Someone on FB mentioned Alma the Elder. Denver is very much following Abinadi’s example–condemning the existing priesthood hierarchy for apostasy. (You have to admit that this parallel fits, whether or not you like Denver or agree with his criticisms of the LDS church.) So my question is, in this scenario, WHO IS ALMA? It’s not Denver, that doesn’t fit. Abinadi was the messenger, and Alma the Elder was one of the wicked priests of Noah. So if this is the story we are reenacting, it follows that one of the priesthood leaders Denver just condemned will know “concerning the iniquity which [Denver] had testified against them” (Mosiah 17:2) and repent and retreat from the existing church leadership. It’s possible that role might be satisfied with former bishops and local leaders retreating to someplace quiet to repent, be (re)baptized, and preach the word of God, but it would make much more sense if one of the LDS apostles came out publicly and led the movement.

    Can you imagine the upheaval an apostle’s defection would cause in the church? All at once, the question of who believes what about Denver would become relatively uninteresting. And there would be nobody following Denver. If anything, people would be following the initiative shown by this modern-day Alma.

    I do think this is a plausible scenario. While the jury is still out for me on Denver, he’s not the only voice pointing out ways that we have strayed from the way we should be running the church. A few examples: the church leadership (or whoever is in the COB) has been teaching false doctrine for a long time, deliberately obscuring some of the essentials of Christ’s gospel; the ordinances have changed; many members encourage idolatry of church leaders, institutions, and property; and we aren’t following the scriptures when it comes to things like disposal of funds and disciplinary action. (Thank you to bloggers like Rock, Tim, and Rob for clarifying the uneasiness I’ve felt the past several years and pointing these all out.)

    So I already accept as a given that the church needs a course correction, independent of whatever Denver said. An Abinadi scenario is a plausible way that could happen, if we believe the scriptures. I’m not sure what I would call this scenario, but it’s happened multiple times. First there’s a messenger (Abinadi), and then there is an immediate response, led by someone who recognizes and acknowledges the condemnation of the messenger and repents (Alma), and then there is a group who repents a bit later, after more evidence has been presented (Limhi). Another Book of Mormon example might be Jeremiah – Lehi – Mulek. Arguably, also Jesus – Peter – Paul could fit this pattern. I’d be interested if others could think of other examples.

    Tim, if I’m right, then you just need to be patient with Carol, because even if she doesn’t join Alma’s movement, there’s a good chance she will join Limhi’s, which takes a different path, but still ends up in the exact same place.

    Anyway, what this means to me, is that now we wait. Denver’s duty has been discharged; he delivered the message he was supposed to deliver. What next? We each need to follow the dictates of our own conscience in how we worship Almighty God, and allow each other the same privilege, per AoF 11. We continue to study and prayerfully consider all that has been said. I suspect Alma may show up soon, and if so, he will probably be someone easier to swallow than Abinadi. The Lord’s plan will become clear soon. Patience!

    Like

    • Julie,

      That’s just the point. There should not be a church to “run”. Alma welcomed an assembly of believers. Man distorts the word church and entertains control. We should of course esteem no one above another. The dream of Joseph in the barn is so apropo. Anything defending the institution as it exists do not understand the act of “believers”. Liberty for all believers is the Lord’s way; always has been. “And I say unto you that there shall be no more disputations on the points of my doctrine”.

      Like

      • Actually, read Mosiah 18: Alma organized a church, ordained and organized priests to teach them, commanded them to teach what he taught, as well as what the holy prophets taught, and to not teach anything but repentance and faith on the Lord.

        And then Mosiah 26: Alma judged the people taken in iniquity, and if they didn’t repent, their names were blotted out. He regulated all the affairs of the church.

        16 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God.

        17 And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.

        18 And it came to pass that Alma, having authority from God, ordained priests; even one priest to every fifty of their number did he ordain to preach unto them, and to teach them concerning the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

        19 And he commanded them that they should teach nothing save it were the things which he had taught, and which had been spoken by the mouth of the holy prophets.

        20 Yea, even he commanded them that they should preach nothing save it were repentance and faith on the Lord, who had redeemed his people.

        21 And he commanded them that there should be no contention one with another, but that they should look forward with one eye, having one faith and one baptism, having their hearts knit together in unity and in love one towards another.

        22 And thus he commanded them to preach. And thus they became the children of God.

        Mosiah 26

        32 Now I say unto you, Go; and whosoever will not repent of his sins the same shall not be numbered among my people; and this shall be observed from this time forward.

        33 And it came to pass when Alma had heard these words he wrote them down that he might have them, and that he might judge the people of that church according to the commandments of God.

        34 And it came to pass that Alma went and judged those that had been taken in iniquity, according to the word of the Lord.

        35 And whosoever repented of their sins and did confess them, them he did number among the people of the church;

        36 And those that would not confess their sins and repent of their iniquity, the same were not numbered among the people of the church, and their names were blotted out.

        37 And it came to pass that Alma did regulate all the affairs of the church; and they began again to have peace and to prosper exceedingly in the affairs of the church, walking circumspectly before God, receiving many, and baptizing many.

        Like

      • Sfort, my point had nothing to do with the definition of the word church. You could substitute the word assembly in for church in those scriptures and you would still have Alma organizing, ordaining, commanding and regulating. And then in the other one, he judged and he blotted out names. Whether you call that a church or an assembly, he was doing those things, which seems to be something quite different than what you described. They very much sound like “running” something, and contradict your point.

        Like

    • If you think that Denver will now just go quietly into the night, you should think again. I believe Denver has exposed himself as hubris masquerading as humility. My wife insists that he has a narcissistic personality disorder (similar to Obama). At any rate, my “prophecy” is that since he just took off the gloves and has taken a directly competitive stance with the Brethren, he will really start swinging away now. This could accelerate into a serious situation. I hope that Tim and others don’t fall for it, but it appears they will.

      Like

      • But you fail to define church or where it derived. It means assembly. What we have today is a belief system based on your current experience so you assume it was always that way. A little shallow to say the least

        Like

      • What did Tomas Monson accomplish by standing in downtown SLC saying “let’s go shopping!”?

        What did any of these men accomplish by deciding to hide the money it’s church members gave or by taking a salary or telling its mission presidents not to disclose what they receive?

        What did Russel Nelson gain by his actions to force a SP to excommunicate a temple worthy man?

        What was “wrested” from the LDS Church this last general conference?

        Why are we not questioning more and asking God to guide us to gain answers for ourselves?

        I know these these questions may make some angry but they are just a few of many that need to be searched out, pondered and prayed about.

        God is at the helm of this work and can choose whomever, whenever and wherever to do His will among the children of men.

        Like

  94. As I have pondered the events of this week, I was reminded of the inevitable transition desccribed in 1 Nephi 13:42:

    “And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.”

    As we see recorded in the New Testament, the transition from Jew to Gentile was painful. There was continual discussion regarding how much ‘Jewishness’ was needed in the new Christ assembly. One example was the debate as to whether new members were to be circumcised.

    As noted in the scripture above, Christ did, once again, manifest Himself unto the Gentiles through the latter day restoration. The final piece that is shown is the move back to the Jews and the house of Israel. If the events of this week can be associated with that prophesied transition, then I would expect much dialogue around how much ‘mormonism’ should be carried into the new assembly. It will be just as difficult for us this day as it was for the Jews of the meridian of time to make the transition. There will be just as much confusion.

    I can only imagine what the early members of Christ’s assembly thought when the Lord departed. I can only posit it was similar to the feeling I had when the meeting ended in Mesa. “What do we do now?”

    Since I actually believe the prophesies in the scriptures regarding the latter day apostasy, I do feel hope that this new beginning is the one I have been waiting for.

    There is a website that has been developed to help those interested in establishing a community. It is found at http://zion.community.

    My hope and prayer is that we all consider carefully the thoughts and actions presented to us by both sides of this intellectual and spiritual battle and take it to the Lord.

    Like

    • Spektator, your link is broken.

      Like

    • Thanks Spektator,

      As usual, the appropriate context.

      Like

    • Thanks, Spektator.

      I have heard of others who have left the Church because of its culture. Not the doctrines but how people interact in the Church. Perhaps we can reclaim these as the LDS Church is left behind. Perhaps the Lamanite remnant will react more favorably to a Mormonism-less Gospel.

      I’ve wondered why D&C 77 referred to the 144,000 bringing converts to the Church of the Firstborn, instead of to the LDS Church. Perhaps we are seeing why now.

      Steve

      Like

  95. It works for me. Just go to a browser and type in zion.community

    Like

    • Oh! I didn’t know “community” was a domain. I figured you were missing a .net or .org or something. Thanks! Who set it up?

      Like

      • I wish something like this could have been in place for Tuesday. I woke up Thursday morning and said, if no one else is going to do it, I will…

        I was heartened by the fact that zion.community is indeed a viable website address, and secondly, it was available..

        On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Latter-day Commentary – Last Days – Signs of the Times wrote:

        > Julie commented: “Oh! I didn’t know “community” was a domain. I > figured you were missing a .net or .org or something. Thanks! Who set it > up?”

        Like

      • Thank you for doing it, then!

        Like

  96. Sfort

    Thank you for your comment on defending the institution etc. I agree completely about liberty etc. I of course do not know what you have learned from God or what you believe so I am going to ask a question presuming that you believe the Book of Mormon. This is not a loaded question it is just something that I can’t quite put together.
    I agree that an organization (like the government) will always grow in power and become corrupted, such is the way of things. So I am wondering how we apply the Book of Mormon teaching that we shouldn’t suffer someone to unworthily partake of the sacrament, to the need for liberty and the freedom of worship. If it was up to me I would say it is anyone’s decision whether to take the sacrament or not. Especially those seeking repentance (which should be all of us). How could they possibly regulate if people were unworthily partaking of the sacrament? Just a strange question and I see the logic (wrong or right) behind Denver saying anyone can partake of the sacrament. Any thoughts? If you think that the Book of Mormon is crap then a swift answer will do

    Like

    • SfotMinorityofone

      I enjoyed your question and have an additional one to add. Where does it say that the sacrament is a renewal of your baptismal covenant?

      The reason I ask is that I hear it preached at baptismal services. “You can be forgiven of your sins every week when you partake of the sacrament.” This has never set well for me. In fact… I in no way believe it is true. If it is, I would like to know the reference.

      This is my take on the sacrament…When you partake you commit to follow Christ and keep his commandments. I have an opportunity to renew that promise I have made to Him. When I do that, he promises to sanctify me by having his spirit be with me. It’s like every week I have an opportunity to put a little oil in my lamp each week.

      I don’t see there is any promise that my sins are forgiven.

      I do believe that was is stated in the D&C is correct. If a person is unworthy to take the sacrament it is a mockery to the covenant. That unworthyness would be that in his heart, as he has no intent to keep the commandments and follow Christ. Partaking is just a show.

      The question is… what is considered being unworthy? What are the sins that would put is in the category? Aren’t we are all sinners? Is it up to the bishop making that decision? Is there some sin list in the handbook? (I think there are some bishops that use denial of participation as a weapon to keep people in line or scare them.)

      On the other hand….I know of a person who was committing adultery for 20 years, held high church positions and took the sacrament every week. With that kind of a secret… I think he should not have been taking the sacrament as it was a mockery to the covenant. He had no intent to keep the commandment “Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery.”

      On a personal level, I know in my heart whether the sins are serious enough not to bring condemnation on my self.

      Like

  97. Joseph smith quote”

    Now, in concluding the information on this high and holy calling of the “witness”, let’s refer to the book of Matthew (24th Chapter), where it is written that the gospel will be preached as a witness. The Prophet Joseph gave this scripture a little different rendering:

    I shall read the 24th chapter of Matthew, and give it a literal rendering and reading; and when it is rightly understood, it will be edifying.
    I thought the very oddity of its rendering would be edifying anyhow–“And it will be preached, the Gospel of the kingdom, in the whole world, to a witness over all people: and then will the end come.” I will now read it in German (which he did, and many Germans who were present said he translated it correctly).

    The Savior said when these tribulations should take place, it should be committed to a man who should be a witness over the whole world; the keys of knowledge, power and revelations should be revealed to a witness who should hold the testimony to the world. It has always been my province to dig up hidden mysteries–new things—for my hearers. Just at the time when some men think that I have no right to the keys of the Priesthood–just at that time I have the greatest right. The Germans are an
    exalted people. The old German translators are the most nearly correct–most honest of any of the translators; and therefore I get testimony to bear me out in the revelations that I have preached for the last fourteen years. The old German, Latin, Greek and Hebrew translations all say it is true: they cannot be impeached, and therefore I am in good company.

    All the testimony is that the Lord in the last days would commit the keys of the Priesthood to a witness over all people. Has the Gospel of the kingdom commenced in the last days? And will God take it from the man until He takes him Himself? I have read it precisely as the words flowed from the lips of Jesus Christ. John the Revelator saw an angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth.

    The scripture is ready to be fulfilled when great wars, famines, pestilence, great distress, judgments, etc., are ready to be poured out on the inhabitants of the earth. John saw the angel having the holy Priesthood, who should preach the ever-lasting Gospel to all nations. God had an angel–a special messenger—ordained and prepared for that purpose in the last days. Woe, woe be to that man or set of men who lift up their hands against God and His witness in these last days: for they shall deceive almost the very chosen ones! (TPJS, pp. 364-65)

    Here it is taught in the BOM same teaching:

    https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/24?lang=eng

    1 Thus said the Father unto Malachi—Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in; behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of Hosts.

    He comes to his body (HIS TEMPLE).
    He is a Lord over us, because all 3 of the godhead are Lords over us.

    Rick this messenger reports to the father, and he comes on the earth, calls the 144,000. So you have a guy, who comes on the earth in our day, and HE reports to the Father. So The father calls him, and He has a different chain of command, than the 3 Nephites or John the revelator… There are many chains of authority you need to think bigger. He has the authority to live the higher laws. Get off the past, Rick the past will not save you…. You need to find this servant, he is here! Stop living in the past. This guy will bring forth the words of Christ, and you will be able to read the words of Christ and get a personal witness, they are of god just like the book of Mormon. Just as you believe Joseph smith’s witness, because of the BOM personal witness, when you read the new revelation i.e. the words of Christ, and get a personal witness they are true, you will know he is sent of the Father and he has the authority, to live the higher laws.

    No one man, will do this work, there will not be just one official chain, because it depends on if you are a seraph, or you coming to the earth for your first time…

    66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
    67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.
    ….
    87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.
    88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

    Celestial people have a chain of authority to terrestrial people and misiter to them as seraphs or angles.

    Terrestrial people minister to people in hell space and that is one of the chains of authority that you are arguing for, but your thinking needs to be expanded and you need to start thinking and asking about today and getting revelation for today. This servant, can and does have the authority to live the higher laws. He can seal you up.

    Here is example the 12 Nephite apostils were at different levels, and had different chains of authority. The nine will have to come back on the earth for a seraph mission if they want to be in the fathers kingdom, with the other 3. The nine can be resurrected on the earth during the terrestrial time, paradise and then perform their missions to get into the fathers kingdom probably become Adams and Eves and do other important missions on other earths, while they live on this terrestrial earth.

    Fathers Kingdom

    3 Nephites who are on the earth now.

    6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.
    7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.
    8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.
    9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.
    10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;

    Christ Kingdom

    9 other apostles
    1 And it came to pass when Jesus had said these words, he spake unto his disciples, one by one, saying unto them: What is it that ye desire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?
    2 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.
    3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are seventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my kingdom; and with me ye shall find rest.

    Some of my experience reading Denver..

    I have felt the spirit when reading Denver, writing’s someone posted, about 120 pages a while back. I was going to post the words I had felt the spirit about (I had cut out about 40 places I felt the spirit while reading) at that time and knew he was teaching truth with those word cuts but the lord stopped me. A Day later I wrote where I felt he was incorrect about some things, and the lord let me post that. I guess I am suggesting there are even better prophets on the earth to read, but he has the spirit in about 95% of what I read. It would not surprises me if he becomes on the 144,000 after, he has a witness who Christ servant is, the angle from the east is. We will know for sure who all the players are, when they stand up in power.

    After seeing the suggestion to read the 9 lectures, I started AGAIN reading of lecture 2. I noticed that his teaching about the coming of the hidden Christ which I often post about, is way different then my understanding and my personal witness I have received. He suggest Christ will not come to us as a prophet in our day. (see page 2 lecture 2) His words (Christ) come to us by the scriptures we now have, and if we reject his words we will be cut off in a future day.

    I will tell you what the spirit has told me: You must get your own witness.

    1. I testify Christ is here (hidden) Standing in the flesh as “see below Wilford Woodruff, April 8, 1898, Spring General Conference”, speaking his own words and explaining the deep things of god where the church is teaching the precepts of man and is he is teaching the fullness of the gospel. He is the best source of teaching of the servants mission. The only way you will know who these servants are, is by the spirit, they will not tell you.
    2. I testify his servant who is also here, he knows who he is, and will also bring forth, Christ words from the ground, and is involved in gathering, teaching, and sealing up the 144,ooo with the hidden Christ. He will reinstate the higher laws to a few and in time to the church after a server judgment and putting in order. Mine, church, state, nation. For a few years you will see this new David having a pissing contest, with the current prophet ( Saul type). The past will repeat.
    3. I testify the servants spokesman knows who he is. The servant and his spokesman, will speak to the united nations, the LDS, and fight as two prophets in Israel.

    Denver Snuffer teaching of what the fullness of the gospel I believe he comes up short. The fullness of the gospel is a correct understanding of 3 convent’s, and how to live each one as we walk up the ladder to god.

    Syni covenant we are called to live this one, until you make your calling and election sure.
    Davidic covenant when you make your calling and election sure you live this one. After you pass your test you are exalted to a seraph mission.
    Abrahamic covenant When you are a seraph you live this one. 3 nephites live this one.

    Christ in the past has come hidden, see
    https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/luke/24.13-32?lang=eng#13
    32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
    There are many revelations that teach he will come to us as a prophet. Also that he will lead us back in an exodus. He will have a servant and he will also bring forth the plates of Nephi which has the words of Christ.

    • The Ascension of Isaiah. Talks about Christ hidden decent to the LDS in the last days and the wickedness of the church in our day.
    (Ascension of Isaiah, 11:41). Isaiah sees him come down the 7 levels of heaven hidden, in our day at the end of the vision.

    • The white horse prophecy.
    31. Continuing, he said: “During this time, the great White Horse will have gathered strength, sending out elders to get the honest in heart of the United States to stand by the Constitution of the United States, as it was given by inspiration of the Lord.
    32. “In these days, God will set up a kingdom, never to be thrown down, for other kingdoms to come unto, and these kingdoms that will not let the Gospel be preached will be humbled until they will.
    [24] 34. “Peace and safety in the Rocky Mountains will be protected by a cord and band of the White Horse and the Red Horse.
    35. “The coming of the Ten Tribes of Israel, the coming of the Messiah among His people, will be so natural that only those who see Him will know He has come, but He will come and give His law unto Zion and minister unto His people. This will not be His coming in the clouds of heaven to take vengeance on the world.

    • Doctrine and Covenants 103:16
    16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
    • 3 Nephi 21:11
    11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
    • 3 Nephi 20:23
    23 Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.

    • President Wilford Woodruff, April 8, 1898, Spring General Conference, CR p.57) President Woodruff then said:
    I was rather surprised. He [Joseph] said, “It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this Church will fill North and South America — it will fill the world.” Among other things he said, “It will fill the Rocky Mountains. There will be tens of thousands of Latter-day Saints who will be gathered in the Rocky Mountains, and there they will open the door for the establishing of the Gospel among the Lamanites, who will receive the Gospel and their endowments and the blessings of God.
    This people will go into the Rocky Mountains; they will there build temples to the Most High. They will raise up a posterity there, and the Latter- day_ Saints who dwell in these mountains will stand in the flesh until the coming of the Son of Man. The Son of Man will-come to them while in the Rocky Mountains. (Ibid.)

    dewey

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    • The below actually happened. Google the name “James Brighouse” and you’ll see how that was fulfilled.

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  98. Minority,

    Thanks for asking the question. The Sacrament is expressly written up in 3rd Ne: 18. As spoken, the only way you should stop the partaking of the Sacrament is if the person is not baptized and received the Holy Ghost. It has nothing to do whether or not someone deems you as unworthy. Why do we partake of the Sacrament? To remember the body of Christ and the his redeeming blood. If the Sacrament instills remembrance and commandment keeping, wouldn’t you want this during your repenant state? The idea that the church would forbid you to partake of the sacrament because you have comitted a sin is not valid. Worthiness has to do with baptism as outlined in chapter 18. Then you go to chapter 19 and see the only doctrine of God. Why would you think I would not elicit the Book of Mormon? I guess you may be new. The Book of Mormon outlines simplicity and doesn’t convolute.

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  99. Kath and Sfort

    Thanks for the responses. I figured you had a testimony of the Book of Mormon but enough good people don’t that I didn’t want to presume. I think your response made sense, and I think that could be the truth, but in 3 Nephi 18 and 19 there is nothing that limits “unworthiness” to simply not being baptized. I see that there is a decent argument for that explanation, seeing as baptism is mentioned with repentance, but that could be a rebaptism or perhaps there is still a possibility that the disciples had such a gift of discernment that they would know if someone was “unworthy”.
    As Kathryn said most people who would partake of the sacrament would hopefully be introspective and be their own judge on the matter. Although yes, no one really is worthy of any blessing, but we can monitor our desires to repent and meet the requirement of a broken heart and contrite spirit.
    I think your question on the sacrament being a chance to find forgiveness and renew our baptism covenant each week is very good.
    To be fair, the church has taught at times that the sacrament is a renewal of all of our covenants, not just baptism. Usually only baptismal covenants are mentioned with the topic though. Even this I think takes away from the real meaning of the sacrament.
    I think that there is rich symbolism in the ritual of “taking His name upon us”. Often in scripture different prophets who have reached a status say something to the effect that the name of God is in them. King Benjamin stresses the importance of the name that he gives to his people. The name is Jesus Christ. He taught that every one of the Lords sheep will have to be called by the name of Jesus Christ.
    I believe the sacrament is symbolic of us accepting more and more grace each week and like you mentioned, adding a drop of oil. Eventually god will make us joint heirs and we will literally have taken His name upon us.
    There is also more to it but this is something that has recently been impressed upon me. I would love to hear more thoughts though.

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  100. The sacrament is renewal of the baptismal covenant. That is why it was instituted in the meridiam of time to the Nephites and the apostles. Read 3rd Ne. again. The baptismal covenant is the worthiness aspect. We all sin. It is a constant. That is why we take the wine, it is because we know sin is present. Who will determine which sin eliminates this ordinance? A man looketh on the outside, the Savior looketh upon the heart. The sacrament helps your repentance by elisiting remembrance. When men decide the heart, you know we have a lack of faith..

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    • Sfort

      I am having a hard time connecting why you said that the sacrament is about the baptismal covenant and then you said this is why it was instituted… in the meridian of time.
      If the sacrament is solely renewing our baptism covenants should it not have been happening since the beginning? Wasn’t baptism around long before the Savior came in the meridian of time?
      Why in the ordinance is baptism not even mentioned? Like Kathryn said in scripture it is never spoken that the sacrament is linked to baptism (that I am aware of)

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      • D&C 20:
        37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.
        Mosiah 18:

        8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;

        9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

        10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

        D&C 88:
        133 Art thou a brother or brethren? I salute you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, in token or remembrance of the everlasting covenant, in which covenant I receive you to fellowship, in a determination that is fixed, immovable, and unchangeable, to be your friend and brother through the grace of God in the bonds of love, to walk in all the commandments of God blameless, in thanksgiving, forever and ever. Amen.
        D&C 59
        12 But remember that on this, the Lord’s day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, confessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord.
        D&C 46
        4 Ye are also commanded not to cast any one who belongeth to the church out of your sacrament meetings; nevertheless, if any have trespassed, let him not partake until he makes reconciliation.
        5 And again I say unto you, ye shall not cast any out of your sacrament meetings who are earnestly seeking the kingdom—I speak this concerning those who are not of the church.

        This last one was you surmising. Taken out of context leaves much wanting. Now let’s look at Mormon.

        Mormon 9:
        1 And now, I speak also concerning those who do not believe in Christ.
        29 See that ye are not baptized unworthily; see that ye partake not of the sacrament of Christ unworthily; but see that ye do all things in worthiness, and do it in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God; and if ye do this, and endure to the end, ye will in nowise be cast out.

        3rd Nephi:
        7 And this shall ye do in remembrance of my body, which I have shown unto you. And it shall be a testimony unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.
        10 And when the disciples had done this, Jesus said unto them: Blessed are ye for this thing which ye have done, for this is fulfilling my commandments, and this doth witness unto the Father that ye are willing to do that which I have commanded you.
        11 And this shall ye always do to those who repent and are baptized in my name; and ye shall do it in remembrance of my blood, which I have shed for you, that ye may witness unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.

        And finally;

        29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.

        30 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out from among you, but ye shall minister unto him and shall pray for him unto the Father, in my name; and if it so be that he repenteth and is baptized in my name, then shall ye receive him, and shall minister unto him of my flesh and blood.

        The sacrament as you can see is revolving around the baptismal covenant. It is revelatory. Those unworthy have not taken on the everlasting covenant. Please don’t skip all these scriptures. Read them all. Everything revolves around the baptismal covenant. All those who add unto this with additional requirements to come unto the Father are trampling the things of God. All will sin. All must repent. Man requires the time element to repent. We say it takes time. Do we know yea or nay that the person will continue to sin or not? Only God knows and it is between Him and you. I am filled with gratitude for the scriptures and the simplicity and beauty they contain. Man loves restrictions, complexities and control. Whenever that is the case, then the priesthood has no power. Thank you for the opportunity to respond.

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      • SFort: You have taught me. I have learned something new. Even though I have read those scriptures all my life, it is clear the meaning of unworthiness means to take the sacrament without having taken upon ourselves the baptismal covenants. That is what the Lord meant by unworthy – the connection between baptism and sacrament is clear.

        So our politically correct way of announcing the sacrament each Sunday is not in keeping with the scriptures. We apparently don’t want to offend any who have not been baptized so we forbid them not. But that would be contrary to the Lord’s injunction. Have I got that right?

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    • Sfort

      You did not answer my questions. And none of those scriptures said the sacrament was a renewal of the baptismal covenant. Yes when you throw a couple dozen verses there is similar language but also distinct differences.
      Of course baptism is us covenanting to follow Christ. Plain and simple, and I agree that any covenants detracting from that would be wrong. I assume you have learned as well than that the endowment is not what everyone claims it to be.
      I asked why if the sacrament is solely related to baptism then why would it not have been instituted way before the meridian of time? In fact the disciples of Christ got baptised years before the sacrament was instituted by Christ.
      Your argument is based on the fact that we find in scripture that people are to take the sacrament only after baptism. That does not imply that one is because of the other.
      Again in the words of the sacrament ordinance there is no mention of baptism. There is no mention of mourning with those who mourn, bearing another’s burdens , comforting those that stand in need of comfort etc.
      I could argue from the verses presented that there are just as many differences between the covenant of baptism and the ordinance of the sacrament as there are similarities.
      Now denver is apparently saying that if someone has knowledge of someone fornicating or committing adultery they can prohibit that person from taking the sacrament. This is going to get absurd. What if I have knowledge of someone committing murder? Should that person not be restrained from taking the sacrament?

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  101. Can someone please clarify this for me? One of the comments above says:

    “The new church will be called THE RESTORED CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS. Denver will not be the first president, but he and two others will choose the first President and Apostles of the new church.”

    Do I have this right? A new church is being formed? Is this info accurate? Are there corroborating sources about this? I am confused.

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    • I was at the meeting and have since listened to the CDs. There was no mention of any of this. Looks like a total fabrication.

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      • Information about the Restored Church is NOT from any of his lectures. You’re assuming he reveals all in his lectures. That is not the case. He is preparing things, not telling everything to everyone at this time.

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  102. Daniel Kayse –

    Why would you know any of this information, then? Did Denver tell you? And aren’t you violating his confidence by revealing it publicly? After all, if Denver won’t reveal it, why would he allow you to do it?

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  103. I am also reminded of Krishnamurti..

    http://damanhurinsideout.wordpress.com/about/a-message-to-would-be-damanhurians-from-krishnamurti/

    “You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else… when I say look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few. So why have an organization?…”

    “But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without a beginning and without an end, will walk together with greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that true friendship – which you do not seem to know – there will be real co-operation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.”

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  104. Oh how I wish that some blogfolk would actually take the time to read Denver Snuffer’s words and listen to his talks before getting their neck hairs up and charging around with flamethrowers, but instead, doing as Joseph Smith exemplified by studying it all out in your mind, expending effort in due diligence and then taking it to the Lord. But, sadly, haters gonna hate, flamethrowers gonna flame. Seeing what’s already going around the internet in word fights and scripture snippet semantics battles makes me feel like I’ve had my eyelids stitched open and am being subjected to a looped replay of Abbott and Costello’s Who’s On First. I have read every book, paper and blogpost, and have listened to the tapes or attended in person every talk that Denver Snuffer has presented. I have searched out every single scriptural reference provided in his asides, or in his footnotes, as if my life depended upon it, because it surely does. I, myself, took it to the Lord and it was confirmed to me in a way that the adversary could not possibly counterfeit, that Denver Snuffer’s words are the words of Christ, and that He has indeed commissioned Denver C. Snuffer, Jr. to act as His emissary. I stand under my own name, and not hidden behind a pseudonym to say amen to that of which Keith Henderson so humbly testified at the close of the tenth talk. I agree with Julie (above post) that Denver Snuffer has heretofore functioned in the pattern of an Abinadi, and if the pattern holds, we may therefore expect a prophet to emerge from the smoldering ash of the Phoenix talk, with power and authority. Denver’s soft caution to use care in how his name is treated (because the Lord will bless those who bless him, and curse those who curse him) is an apt warning also according to the pattern of Abinadi – those who use flamethrowers will themselves be burned in the coming fires.

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  105. The transcript is posted: http://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration#download

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  106. I had a priesthood leader when I was a young man, Don Fenn, who was the kindest, quietest, most honest person I knew. He had a wonderful wife and many wonderful children. After I was married he claimed to have seen the Savior, left his wife and family to go join a group founded by Roger Billings. He was convinced he had seen the Savior. He died a few years ago, his obituary does not even mention his former family, he gave up everything. His new testimony led to nothing good.

    I later knew a devout dedicated women who had not married in her late 20’s. She was the kindest person, full of acts of service and love. She was convinced the spirit had told her to join with the group in Manti. Fortunately many years later she left that group and came back when the actions and teachings were not consistent and she failed to feel the spirit and realized she had been deceived.

    I think we underestimate the Devils ability to deceive, even to those who have seen the savoir.These people and groups were sure that they were doing the right thing. I for one cannot throwout 50 years of witnesses and testimonies because another dissenter has sincerely declared that he has the right stuff and all the other witnesses, testimony and evidences are suddenly wrong.

    I for one, sustain the prophets, reaffirm my witness that the lord leads his church, even with imperfect men.

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    • How recently did you receive that witness? Of what does your witness consist?

      Testify, if you will. Tell us the experiential basis for your claims, that we may judge for ourselves.

      I’m not a big fan of “it’s too sacred to share.” If it’s too sacred to share, you should not be testifying, and, indeed, are not – to declare without explicating the experiential basis is not testimony at all, but dogma.

      Behold an example of testimony, given to nonbelievers – dissenters, actually (what “apostasy” really means).

      1 Now these are the words which Amulek preached unto the people who were in the land of Ammonihah, saying:

      2 I am Amulek; I am the son of Giddonah, who was the son of Ishmael, who was a descendant of Aminadi; and it was that same Aminadi who interpreted the writing which was upon the wall of the temple, which was written by the finger of God.

      3 And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.

      4 And behold, I am also a man of no small reputation among all those who know me; yea, and behold, I have many kindreds and friends, and I have also acquired much riches by the hand of my industry.

      5 Nevertheless, after all this, I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I said I never had known much of these things; but behold, I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power; yea, even in the preservation of the lives of this people.

      6 Nevertheless, I did harden my heart, for I was called many times and I would not hear; therefore I knew concerning these things, yet I would not know; therefore I went on rebelling against God, in the wickedness of my heart, even until the fourth day of this seventh month, which is in the tenth year of the reign of the judges.

      7 As I was journeying to see a very near kindred, behold an angel of the Lord appeared unto me and said: Amulek, return to thine own house, for thou shalt feed a prophet of the Lord; yea, a holy man, who is a chosen man of God; for he has fasted many days because of the sins of this people, and he is an hungered, and thou shalt receive him into thy house and feed him, and he shall bless thee and thy house; and the blessing of the Lord shall rest upon thee and thy house.

      8 And it came to pass that I obeyed the voice of the angel, and returned towards my house. And as I was going thither I found the man whom the angel said unto me: Thou shalt receive into thy house—and behold it was this same man who has been speaking unto you concerning the things of God.

      9 And the angel said unto me he is a holy man; wherefore I know he is a holy man because it was said by an angel of God.

      10 And again, I know that the things whereof he hath testified are true; for behold I say unto you, that as the Lord liveth, even so has he sent his angel to make these things manifest unto me; and this he has done while this Alma hath dwelt at my house.

      11 For behold, he hath blessed mine house, he hath blessed me, and my women, and my children, and my father and my kinsfolk; yea, even all my kindred hath he blessed, and the blessing of the Lord hath rested upon us according to the words which he spake.

      12 And now, when Amulek had spoken these words the people began to be astonished, seeing there was more than one witness who testified of the things whereof they were accused, and also of the things which were to come, according to the spirit of prophecy which was in them.

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      • PTHG contains outright errors and falsehoods. Denver makes the claim, for example, that Brigham Young was not transfigured when he spoke after Josephs death, that his change was a story perpetuated after the fact. However, I have read the personal journal of Zera Pulsipher, who was there and recorded the event, and recorded that he saw the transfiguration. Denver uses faulty logic, stating truths and then jumping to unrelated incorrect conclusions that are not supported by his stated truths. His book and lectures are full of such leaps, its error, not truth.

        I will say no more, you all will do what you plan to do. I stand with the Prophet and 12.

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      • You are welcome to choose your own path.

        I simply note that the future end of that path has been charted and is sure.

        21 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, by what authority doest thou these things? And who gave thee this authority?

        22 And Jesus answered and said unto them. I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I, likewise, will tell you by what authority I do these things.

        23 The baptism of John, whence was it? From heaven, or of men?

        24 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people, For all people held John as a prophet. And they answered Jesus and said, We cannot tell.

        25 And he said, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

        26 But what think ye? A man had two sons; and he came to the first, saying, Son, go work to-day in my vineyard.

        27 He answered and said, I will not; but afterward he repented, and went.

        28 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I will serve; and went not.

        29 Whether of these twain did the will of their father?

        30 They say unto him, The first.

        31 Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you.

        32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and bore record of me, and ye believed him not; but the publicans and the harlots believed him; and ye, afterward, when ye had seen me, repented not, that ye might believe him.

        33 For he that believed not John concerning me, cannot believe me, except he first repent.

        34 And except ye repent, the preaching of John shall condemn you in the day of judgment. And, again, hear another parable; for unto you that believe not, I speak in parables; that your unrighteousness may be rewarded unto you.

        35 Behold, there was a certain householder, who planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a wine-press in it; and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.

        36 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

        37 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

        38 Again, he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did unto them likewise.

        39 But last of all, he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

        40 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

        41 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

        42 And Jesus said unto them, When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

        43 They say unto him, He will destroy those miserable, wicked men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

        44 Jesus said unto them, Did ye never read in the Scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner; this is the Lord’s doings, and it is marvelous in our eyes.

        45 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

        46 For whosoever shall fall on this stone, shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

        47 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

        48 And they said among themselves, Shall this man think that he alone can spoil this great kingdom? And they were angry with him

        49 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they learned that the multitude took him for a prophet.

        50 And now his disciples came to him, and Jesus said unto them, Marvel ye at the words of the parable which I spake unto them?

        51 Verily, I say unto you, I am the stone, and those wicked ones reject me.

        52 I am the head of the corner. These Jews shall fall upon me, and shall be broken.

        53 And the kingdom of God shall be taken from them, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof; (meaning the Gentiles.)

        54 Wherefore, on whomsoever this stone shall fall, it shall grind him to powder.

        55 And when the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, he will destroy those miserable, wicked men, and will let again his vineyard unto other husbandmen, even in the last days, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

        56 And then understood they the parable which he spake unto them, that the Gentiles should be destroyed also, when the Lord should descend out of heaven to reign in his vineyard, which is the earth and the inhabitants thereof.

        The identity of the Gentiles is known. It is us.

        Doctrine and Covenants 109:60
        60 Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles.

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    • I can name two more who claimed to see the Savior, contrary to your examples.

      Paul.

      Joseph Smith, Jr.

      I remember, at least with the latter, that he, too, was encouraged to consider it all of the devil.

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      • Indeed, many found themselves unable to throw out 1800 years of witnesses and testimonies because another dissenter had sincerely declared that he had the right stuff and all the other witnesses, testimony and evidences were suddenly wrong.

        Liked by 1 person

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