A Broken Heart and a Contrite Spirit


BrokenHeartMy Bishop is a wise man. He has the spirit of discernment. I know he and my Stake President asked me to not write publicly about our conversations on my blog, but things have changed. In our last interview, when I said I was ready to get my temple recommend, he said he didn’t believe me, that even though I try to be respectful, there is a spirit of apostasy in my writings.

He then placed me on informal probation, forbidding me to partake of the sacrament and to not exercise my priesthood in the church. Of course, he was only following the handbook. I think I’ve mentioned a church disciplinary council is mandatory in cases of apostasy. Based on what I shared on Tuesday, I think it’s pretty obvious I’ve made a decision now about where I stand.

I like one of the comments from a reader – Kevin – on Tuesday’s post. He asked, “In all of this Mormon-focused excitement, Tim, do you have a sense of what Denver’s talks and the 10th talk in particular might mean for the more than 99.99% of the human family that aren’t Mormon?” He makes a good point. What happened Tuesday went entirely unnoticed by most of the world.

A Message from a Prophet

I’ve previously declared Denver Snuffer to be a prophet. I know that’s a charged word in our church so it drew a lot of opposition. I stand by my proclamation, mainly because the Lord asked me to share it. Denver Snuffer delivered the message the Lord asked him to deliver. He acted as the Lord’s messenger and the Lord’s servant. I’ve heard the voice of the Lord declare it to me.

In spite of my proclamation, I don’t think Denver has ever stated he is a prophet. He has continually asked us to focus on Christ. While we may listen to prophets, we follow Christ. Something obviously changed Tuesday, because he said, the Lord told him, “I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee.” He also mentioned another visit with Christ on May 1st, 2014.

While my wife was horrified at what she was hearing at Tuesday’s lecture, I was delighted. I have listened to the recording a couple of times now. Along with many of you, I am anxiously awaiting the release of the transcript. Even though I was baptized as a child, I have made up my mind I want to receive the ordinance of baptism as an adult. I just need someone to baptize me.

An Offering unto the Lord

When I was a child, I’m certain I didn’t meet the requirements for baptism as outlined in D&C 20:37 of coming forward with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. At age eight I didn’t have the maturity to understand this. Now that I am older I can testify I have experienced a broken heart. Some people may not think my spirit is contrite, but contrition is proven by acts of submission.

My Bishop and I talked about the importance of a broken heart and a contrite spirit. I agreed with him in principle but made certain to state my position that these must be offered to the Lord and not to any man, no matter who he is or what position he holds. It is an act of submission to obey the commandment to repent and be baptized. That submission is a freewill offering to the Lord.

In other words, the idea of being submissive or deferential to a man, no matter who he is, when it comes to matters of salvation, is an abomination to the Lord. It is idol worship. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” includes men who would stand in the place of God, be they a prophet, an apostle, a general authority, stake president, bishop or any church leader, teacher or counselor.

Church Does Not Control Priesthood

I received the priesthood from my father. The priesthood is independent of the church. It existed before the church was organized. A man is not dependent upon any organization to receive it. It came unto the earth in these latter days through John the Baptist. Unlike the higher priesthood, the Aaronic Priesthood can be passed down from man to man. The church doesn’t control it.

Therefore, I can seek out any man who has the Aaronic priesthood, and, following the pattern of praying first to receive power, he can then baptize me. The church has nothing to say about this. It has nothing to do with the church. The church cannot control the exercise of the priesthood in a private ordinance. Baptism is between me and the Lord, not between me and the LDS Church.

The promise of the Lord in 3 Nephi 9:20 is that if we offer a broken heart and a contrite spirit to the Lord, he will baptize us with fire and with the Holy Ghost. He said nothing about the laying on of hands in this verse. In my youth I went through a period of deep repentance, striving to cast off the effects of my sins. I am certain I was born again that evening, but was I baptized with fire?

An Abomination before the Lord

I’ve been thinking about the imposed discipline of being forbidden to partake of the Sacrament. I know the Lord commanded we shall not allow any one knowingly to partake of the sacrament unworthily (3 Ne 18:28-29), which caused me to ponder the meaning of worthiness. I cannot bring myself to believe my questioning and writing about the church has made me unworthy.

When I sat as a counselor in various Bishoprics over the years, I always took the opportunity to suggest to the bishop, when asked for ideas on how we could help penitent souls, that he would consider allowing them to take the sacrament, perhaps sooner than they may have “deserved” it by their actions. After all, who among us really ever “deserves” to partake of the sacrament?

Unless you know someone is engaging in fornication or adultery, forbidding someone to partake of the sacrament is anti-Christ. It is an abomination before the Lord. Forbidding to partake of the sacrament as a means to pressure someone to change their way of thinking is detestable. It is an abuse of power. It is an attempt at exercising control and compulsion by virtue of dominion.

More Than One Prophet on the Earth

When I turned in my temple recommend it was because I was struggling with the “affiliation” question. After I resolved that and felt ready to renew my recommend, the Bishop shocked me by his statement I don’t sustain the prophet as the only man authorized to exercise all the keys of the priesthood. I said I accept the prophet as the leader of the LDS church with the right to direct it.

I tried to explain it with this example: If Thomas S. Monson were to walk into any LDS Church meeting, he could do whatever he wanted. He could make any change he wanted to make. He could change the meeting to whatever format he wanted. He could ask anyone to accept a call, to teach a class, to sing a song, to pray, or whatever he felt inspired to have them do in the meeting.

Apparently that wasn’t a good enough answer. He leaned forward and said, “And…?” I accept Thomas S. Monson as the leader of the LDS Church. Can’t we have more than one prophet at a time? I believe Denver Snuffer is also a prophet, but not the leader of the LDS Church. There are many examples in the scriptures of having more than one prophet on the earth at the same time.

LDS Church No Longer Led by Priesthood

Well, it’s all a moot case now. The Church was careless with Denver Snuffer. There was no sin in his life warranting church discipline. He was morally worthy. His excommunication was an abuse of authority. As soon as the decision was made, the Lord terminated the priesthood authority of every leader involved in that decision. This is easily demonstrated in D&C 121:37.

Denver appealed to the First Presidency, outlining the involvement of the Twelve and the Seventy. The appeal gave notice to them all. The appeal was summarily denied. Last General Conference, the entire First Presidency, Twelve, Seventy, all other general authorities and auxiliaries voted to sustain those who abused their authority in casting him out of the church.

At that moment, the Lord ended all rights of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to claim it is led by the priesthood. They have not practiced what He requires. The Lord brought about His purposes. This has been in His heart all along. He chose to use Denver to accomplish it. None of this was Denver’s doing. The Lord’s strange act was not planned by Denver.

Organizing into Local Communities

Denver said he did not understand this until the Lord made it known unto him on the evening of May 1st, 2014. The Lord has done this. He is the author of this. The Lord had wrested the keys, the kingdom, the power and the glory from the LDS Church leaders. D&C 84:27-28 explains how John the Baptist was raised up to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews. It applies to Denver.

The Jews did not notice what the Lord had done through John the Baptist. In like manner, God’s house is a house of order. He sets things up according to his pattern and then tears them down in the same way. It is not God’s purpose to abandon the restoration. It is His purpose to preserve the restoration, which at this moment is in terrible jeopardy. The restoration itself must be rescued.

This is why I want to be baptized. I want to show the Lord I accept what He has done through his servant and messenger. Denver is not starting a new church. We are simply being invited to take back the restoration into communities as it was intended. We are organizing though the Internet, finding like-minded individuals who believe and want to be baptized as we read in 3 Nephi 11.

Tithing is Intended to Help the Poor

Since I no longer have a temple recommend, I see no need to pay my tithing to the LDS Church. However, since it is a commandment to pay tithing, I am seeking a community where I can help the poor with my tithing. 100% of my tithing will be used to help the poor. It will not go to pay the salaries of any church employee or leader, to build malls or to maintain any church building.

We do not need church buildings to meet in small groups or communities. We can and will meet in homes, in parks, at the beach, in the mountains or wherever we choose. Because we have the priesthood we can administer the sacrament and baptize. This is not a new church. It is simply practicing our religion the way the Lord intended it. The Internet makes it easy to organize.

There will be no hierarchy, no curriculum other than the scriptures and no formal program that must be rigidly followed in a set, three-hour block. We will not go over the same lessons every four years, drinking milk ad infinitum, but will minister to the needs of each other according to our desires to learn and the gifts of the spirit. And we can sing songs from any source we choose.

No Poor Among People of Zion

Above all, we will help each other come onto Christ. We will teach what he requires to open the heavens, to receive angels, to commune with the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn, and to be ministered unto directly by the Savior, something I almost never hear about in the LDS Church. There will be no poor among us. The whole purpose is to be a people worthy of Zion.

I am already aware of a half dozen small groups, some that have been organized for months. I know of baptisms taking place with rejoicing because of the receipt of the spirit in abundance. There are those who have been successful in managing the tithing funds in such a way as to be able to remove a single mother and her children from welfare. This is truly the gospel in action.

Sadly, because I am all alone here in the Central California Coast in my acceptance of what the Lord has done through Denver Snuffer, I must travel to groups organizing in more populated areas or wait until more people in this area catch the vision of what the Lord has done. Equally sad is the fact that, for wanting to live my religion, the LDS Church will no doubt cast me out.

97 Responses

  1. How do Carol and your children factor into your decision, Tim? I ask humbly and sincerely. Will this destroy your family?

    Liked by 1 person

    • I have one son. Mike is 31 years old. He left the church when he was 16. He lives an hour up the coast from us. I am hoping this will be something that will interest him. He said he never felt comfortable in the structured meetings of the church.

      Carol and I have spoken about this every day for the past three days. She knew when she heard it that I was committed to being baptized and joining with a community. That is why she had such an emotional response and left the meeting after the first hour.

      We had already talked about paying my tithing to a community. She talked to an counselor friend on Wednesday evening. She told me Thursday morning she was OK with my decision. She didn’t like it. She didn’t understand it and it’s not for her, but she said she accepted it.

      This is not for everyone. This is what the Lord has asked of me.

      Liked by 3 people

      • I need a woman like Carol. Her courage and example is refreshing.

        Liked by 2 people

  2. Tim,
    I was on my way to bed and felt like I should check my email. I know now why I received that prompting…..your post is amazing! I was in Phoenix and I too have listened to the lecture again. I have had to ponder more than usual but the Spirit has consistently born witness to me that the principles and declarations are indeed the words of a messenger sent forth by The Lord. I have searched out the interpretations of others and used those thoughts to assist me in my own reasoning and prayer. Tonight as I read your post I had a strong witness from The Holy Ghost. My witness is associated with the Light and Truth in the subject matter and your feelings about it. I thank you for your courage and fidelity before The Lord. I wish you all the best and may you find local support. I discovered today that there are others in my own community who share my feelings. The internet truly is a tool for bringing about God’s purposes. Please keep posting….your blog is a powerful tool for the cause of truth!

    Liked by 3 people

  3. God bless you Tim. I agree with your thoughts. I rejoice in the direction the Lord is leading His humble followers. It will not be a road that is easy and carefree, but it will lead us to Christ. My soul delights in truth and anything that leads to Christ is a gift. I thank God for His words that guide our paths.

    Thank you for your thoughtful post.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Tim,

      Thank you for your post. My wife and i and several friends have decided to be re-baptized after hearing Denver’s talk and feeling the Spirit of The Lord touch our hearts.

      Our thoughts and prayers are with you and Carol.

      Regards,
      Ashton

      Liked by 2 people

  4. And I too will wait on the Lord to provide a community of followers of Christ to fellowship with. There are not any in my area either.

    Liked by 2 people

  5. Take heart Tim. I’m sure the purge will ramp up in the coming years. I admire your courage to share what you believe online, with your real name attached to it and not some internet moniker to provide anonymity like my nome de plume. I have known since I was a young missionary that I would one day be cast out, though I didn’t understand that at the time (indeed, not until very recently in fact). I thought it was a revelation about my future failures. While those have been many and frequent (and undoubtedly will yet be many; hopefully less frequent) I’ve managed to avoid the big stuff that would warrant getting the boot. Way back then, I had a dream where I saw the Lord, and received forgiveness from him. It was real, and still is real to me. At the time, I thought he came because I had complied, to the letter, with all that the church had ever asked of me in a repentance process. I thought he came as a direct consequence of my absolutely and total devotion to the Church (note the capital C). I was a missionary after all, and you don’t get much more immersed in the Church than while serving a full time mission. It’s taken all of the intervening years since then for me to realize that in those few moments he spent with me, we didn’t discuss the Church. Not at all. We didn’t discuss my bishop, SP, MP, or any other priesthood leaders for that matter. Not a word about them. They weren’t a priority. For the last year or so I’ve wanted a rebaptism but hadn’t found someone willing to assist (or in truth, someone willing to even listen to the idea); though I think that’s about to change. Chin up good brother; as much as I love the fellowship and friendship of my family and ward members, and as much as I love the time I’ve spent serving in the Temple and in other callings, I’d trade it all in a heartbeat for just a few more moments with the Risen Lord. He lives. He’s real. Doubt not; fear not.

    Liked by 4 people

  6. Tim… For whatever reason, your blogs have always touched me. I feel like that guy (Mahejah) in Neal A. Maxwell’s book that was learning about Enoch, and the city of Enoch… or community if you will. Have you read that book? It is entitled “Of One Heart” My dad gave me my first copy several years ago and he was very touched by it as I have been each time that I have read it. I have several copies that I have lent out to individuals. If you have not read it, I would highly recommend it)))) One of the things the book addresses is the poor. It addresses so well many of the issues that will be encountered as these ‘Communities’ are organized. It is as if Elder Maxwell was blessed to see what kind of people it would take to make this experiment successful. I teach the Gospel Doctrine class in my ward. I have two former Stake Presidents that attend regularly. In my classes, I have incorporated many ‘new found’ truths that I have learned from Denver- and I have a feeling that I am making them a little uncomfortable at times. One Sunday I was trying to make the point of NOT trusting in the arm of flesh! That we are agents unto ourselves.. That we should not put our trust in any man. But only in Heavenly Father and Jesus. As you know this is a delicate subject anymore. Well, after giving my spill- one of the former S.P.’s ended all discussion on the subject by saying that all we need to do is ” to look to and Follow The Current Prophet”- Then he said..”I promise you that if you will do that, then everything will be ok))))))” I then brought up the parable of the 10 virgins. How they were all members of the church- and if living in our day would of also believed that Pres. Monson spoke for the Lord. But even believing and looking forward to the Bridegroom only five of them had oil in their lamps. (And were not invited to the wedding as the Lord told them- I know you not..) I think the same is true of us today. Well, life is getting very interesting in the church…. I’m looking forward to Conference. I’m wondering if there will be a noticable change… It seems that there are so many things that will need to be done, and where to start? I’ve been thinking what Joseph Smith must have thought as he received answers to his prayers, and the direction that he was led. I’m sure it must have been overwhelming for him.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Kevin: Thanks for sharing. I do have that book, “Of One Heart.” I’ll have to dig it out and look it up. I enjoyed your experience of teaching gospel doctrine. I will miss that. I had the same experience you had with the two former Stake Presidents. I was responding to a comment in the High Priest group the other day and felt and intense feeling of “follow the prophet” coming from a couple of elderly brethren. What a killer to the conversation that was. Yes, things are going to get interesting.

      God bless you my friend and thanks for adding to the dialog. Cheers.

      Liked by 2 people

  7. I love you Tim. GOD bless you and the power of the priesthood be upon you and your posterity forever and ever. Amen

    Liked by 4 people

  8. Tim yearns for what I yearn and yet I have not. G-d deliver us please.

    Liked by 3 people

  9. Awesome post recapping many of the important points of talk #10 in much of the same language as well. Thanks Tim.

    Liked by 2 people

  10. Very powerful words, Tim. My Journey has not gotten me to the same point where you are yet, but I am diligent in my studies and prayers. I am praying for answers. Keep those of us who are still searching diligently for definitive answers in your prayers. Thank you so much, Tim.

    Liked by 2 people

  11. Maybe someone can help me understand: How was Denver’s appeal of his excommunication notice to all general authorities? Did most of them even know a) that he’d been excommunicated and b) what was in his appeal? I’m pretty sure the appeal is confidential.

    Why would their sustaining of the first presidency have had anything at all to do with Denver Snuffer?

    Also, as none of us were in that disciplinary council, it is not easily demonstrated that the Lord terminated the priesthood of every leader involved in that decision. D&C 121:37 says “to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness,” and there are those who obviously believe this to be the case, but that does not make it so.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Nonrandom Set. Those are great questions. I would either ask Denver directly, review what he has written on the subject numerous times and in numerous places – I’ve included links in the post – or ask the Lord. I have done all three and am satisfied Denver speaks truth.

      You logic is sound: “there are those who obviously believe this to be the case, but that does not make it so.” I would be skeptical too. You are asking questions. God bless you to find the answers you seek. It has taken me 2.5 years and thousands of hours of study and prayer.

      Liked by 1 person

  12. Thank you Tim for sharing some thoughts with us once again.

    Ive been reading with my wife several chapters that deal with baptism out of the Book of Mormon. It has become so abundantly clear that no organization/institution can control the Lords command and desire because: “he sendeth an invitation unto all men, for the arms of mercy are extended towards them, and he saith: repent, and I will receive you. Yea, he saith: Come unto me and ye shall partake of the fruit of the tree of life; yea, ye shall eat and drink of the bread and the waters of life freely; Yea, come unto me and bring forth works of righteousness, and ye shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire–…the good shepard doth call you; yea, and in his own name doth he call you, which is the name of Christ…Come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye also may be partakers of the fruit of the tree of life.”(Alma 5: 33-35, 38, 62)

    May we heed the voice of the good Shepherd and take upon ourselves his Name, who is calling us by name, which is the name of Christ, saying; follow thou me. yea, come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins; yea, come and go forth, and show unto your God that ye are willing to repent of your sins and enter into a covenant with him to keep his commandments, and witness it unto him this day by going into the waters of baptism. For behold, he cometh to redeem those who will be baptized unto repentance, through faith on his name. Now I would have you to remember also, that there were none who were brought unto repentance who were not baptized with water. Therefore, there were such unto this ministry, that all such as should come unto them should be baptized with water and this as a witness and a testimony before God, and unto the people, that they had repented and received a remission of their sins. And all those that did believe on his words did go forth into the waters of baptism crying out: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart. And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. And after these words were said, they were buried in the water; and they arose and came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit. And they were the church of God, or the church of Christ, having one eye, having one faith and one baptism, having their hearts knit together in unity and in love one towards another, and they who where baptized came to the knowledge of their Redeemer; yea, and how blessed are they, for they shall sing to his praise forever.

    At least this reflects the desires in my heart.

    Liked by 3 people

  13. I have heard a lot of people mention they have listened to Denver’s last talk. Is there a link somewhere? I would like to listen to it also. Especially since the transcript is not out yet.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Doug Mendenhall of Publishing Hope recorded all the lectures and sells copies of the CDs on his website, http://publishinghope.info. He knew all along there was a limited time to sell them and he is not doing it for a profit, but as a service – they are very inexpensive. He and we have always known Denver would offer the recordings on his website some day. One could prepay and pick up a copy immediately after each lecture. They are two or three CDs for each lecture. I have copies of all ten, including the last one now.

      Liked by 1 person

  14. Tim,

    I have literally begged you in the comments to your post about Mesa to respond to the following questions of mine, and have also reached out to you via the LDS Freedom Forum. This issue is pertinent to the present post as well, as you discuss worthiness to partake of the sacrament and forbid the sacrament to those taken in adultery.

    In Denver’s new community, will people who have been remarried after being divorced (for something other than adultery) be considered to be themselves committing adultery, and therefore unworthy to take the sacrament? Why or why not?

    Somebody help me with this issue, to which I have never gotten a real response. Is the man who recently gave his talk in Mesa, AZ an adulterer (by his own logic)? Please understand – I am not saying he is an adulterer; rather, I am saying that Denver Snuffer’s own logic leads to that conclusion.

    In the Book of Mormon, which Denver and others take a fundamentalist interpretive approach to, Christ says the following (3 Nephi 12:31-32; see also Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:9):

    “31 It hath been written, that whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.
    32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.”

    It is also written (D&C 42:24): “Thou shalt not commit adultery; and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not, shall be cast out”?
    It is also written, “Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord”? (D&C 38:42; 133:5; 3 Nephi 20:41).

    An earnest question: Where in the scriptures were these commandments ever repealed? Yes, yes–I know that the LDS Church does not enforce these writings on divorce. But Denver believes that the LDS Church has been in apostasy since Joseph Smith. Surely this group of apostates did not have the authority to change the scripture, under your interpretation. Even if they did, I am not aware of the Body of Saints ever voting to sustain such a change, meaning that the doctrine was never repealed properly.

    My understanding (and I someone will correct any errors of fact here) is that Denver’s first wife caused that there be a divorce (“put away [her husband].” Assuming it wasn’t because of fornication by DS, it would then have caused him “to commit adultery” when he married his 2nd wife who “marry[ied] [him] who is divorced.”

    I am sorry this is unsavory, but it merits a response. Many around here have condemned the LDS leaders because of their failings (excessive pride, opening a mall, exercising dominion). How can people turn a blind eye to possible adultery (that CONTINUES TO THIS DAY according to some interpretations of re-marriage as a continuing state vs. act)? Or perhaps Denver and his followers are a little more selective about which scriptures they rely on?

    Did the Lord choose as a prophet a man who has committed adultery and continues, by some interpretations, to live in it? As you well know:

    “The powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.” Surely this would be incompatible with continuing adultery.
    “37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition…” Surely neither Denver nor those who admire him will undertake to cover any possible sins like adultery, right?

    For those with ears to hear:

    “[H]earken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good. “And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar…” (2 Nephi 33:10-11).

    Please correct me. I seek greater light and knowledge.

    Also note the Prophet Joseph’s teaching that no one who has committed adultery can inherit the celestial kingdom, but will be consigned to the telestial kingdom–a teaching that Denver Snuffer himself has echoed Joseph as saying.

    Incidentally, in response to the argument that Christ was directing his teaching on adultery only to men rather than women, I would respond as follows: Almost all the scriptures are addressed to men, rather than women. Yet I believe they apply equally to both sexes. Otherwise, women are left with virtually no scriptural guidance on how to live their lives. In addition, commentators on the Bible have noted that in Jewish law, women did not have the ability to divorce their husbands, and since Matthew was directing his Gospel predominantly to the Jews, he only addressed the circumstance applicable to them.

    Mark, on the other hand, addressed his Gospel predominantly to the Gentiles, where in matters of divorce women enjoyed equal rights to their husbands. Mark shows that Christ’s teaching apply to both the husband and the wife (Mark 10:11-12):

    11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

    Luke then teaches that marrying a divorced person is an act of adultery: “Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery” (Luke 16:18).

    What is a person supposed to do? Remain single, apparently. “10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband…” (1 Cor. 7:10-11)

    The bottom line is that, as recorded in the New Testament and echoed in the Book of Mormon, divorce and remarriage are not permitted, as marriage is a divine institution rather than a man-made one. As Jesus states, “What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” (Matthew 19:6).

    Because I believe in the authority of LDS prophets and apostles, I take their word that civil divorce does not equate to adultery. But people like Denver who believe that prophets from Brigham onwards lost authority (or had an incomplete authority) need to explain why these scriptures are not still in force. How could people with no authority or incomplete authority overrule Christ’s prior teachings on the matter? How could such teachings be over-ruled without a sustaining vote of the Church?

    Just to be perfectly clear, I do not believe people who are remarried are adulterers, and do not believe Denver is an adulterer, BECAUSE I believe that the modern LDS church has been invested with authority in its teaching that it is not. If, like Denver and others, you claim that the LDS Church has not had any authority since Joseph Smith (or if you claim that it is a lesser authority), then I don’t see how you can say that these scriptures have been superseded. It’s a contradiction.

    Please correct me. I recognize that I might be in error, and seek further knowledge.

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    • Anybody? Bueller?

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      • I tried to post on the blog but it doesn’t appear to show up so I will try to do this from the e mail….sorry if this somehow double posts.

        France, since no one seems to answer you to your specifications, I suggest you take your answers to the Lord(which we are supposed to do any way!) As has been said from the beginning-people should pay attention to and pray about the Message that has been given and leave the Messenger Out of it. People will always have things to pick on about both the message and messenger…..we need to be connecting to the Lord and only the Lord for our self, and to receive answers from HIM. I ask you to stop demanding attention and if you are actually interested in the Message, to study what has been given and Pray about it all. There were many things people wanted to condemn Joseph Smith for. That did not change the fact that he was and IS a true and actual Prophet of the Lord and he did what the Lord wanted the best he could. I have already received the witness I need from the Lord about both the Message and the messenger!!

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      • According to DS’s words, she left him or put him away. Did she commit “fornication”? We don’t know. Why don’t you e-mail and ask him? I don’t think it’s any of my business. But it seems important to you. And he is a public figure. Please share what you find out.

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      • France –

        I know you are seeking “clear answers” to your questions. I was reading this today and immediately thought of you, though I am not sure you will frequent this post again. Perhaps Tim could email this link to you. I hope you will be edified once you have read it.

        Link with some clear answers

        God bless you as you seek truth!

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        • I was surprised to see that this is the main concept presented in The Peacemaker. A married woman (or man) cannot commit fornication as to the body, that’s called adultery.

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    • France, since no one seems to answer you to your specification, I suggest you take all of your questions to the LORD who can give you the answers you should be looking for and stop demanding attention here and on a forum. As has been said from the beginning, people SHOULD focus on the MESSAGE….NOT the messenger!! I have already have been given the witness I need from the LORD, about the MESSAGE and that is ALL I need!! I realize to you, you want an answer to your topic, but anyone can find there own things they want to pick on……which is why we need to be seeking the LORD’s answer for our self. It may not be the same for everyone. That is just the way it goes.

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      • Letyourlightshine,

        I am concerned about people being deceived by a false prophet. I am also astonished at the hypocrisy I am seeing in people who claim to want to follow Christ, yet blithely seem ignore Christ when it doesn’t suit them – people who cast stones at the LDS Church leaders, yet blithely ignore issues with their current leaders.

        Perhaps I shouldn’t care and just watch as people screw up their lives.

        Like

    • France, since no one seems to answer you to your specifications, I suggest you take your answers to the Lord(which we are supposed to do any way!)
      As has been said from the beginning-people should pay attention to and pray about the Message that has been given and leave the Messenger Out of it.

      People will always have things to pick on about both the message and messenger…..we need to be connecting to the Lord and only the Lord for our self,
      and to receive answers from HIM. If you are actually interested in the Message study what has been given
      and Pray about it all. There were many things people wanted to condemn Joseph Smith for and that did not change the fact that he was and IS a true and actual Prophet of the Lord and he did what the Lord wanted the best he could. I have already received the witness I need from the Lord about both the Message and
      the messenger!!

      Like

      • Oh, good freaking grief….now the posts I tried to make earlier are all showing up….LOL

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      • Letyourlightshine,

        I am concerned about people being deceived by a false prophet. I am also astonished at the hypocrisy I am seeing in people who claim to want to follow Christ, yet blithely seem ignore Christ when it doesn’t suit them – people who cast stones at the LDS Church leaders, yet blithely ignore issues with their current leaders.

        Perhaps I shouldn’t care and just watch as people screw up their lives.

        Like

    • Hi Geoff,

      Thanks for your response. I wonder if we’re talking past each other. When one person divorces another, it causes the OTHER person to commit adultery upon re-marriage (unless the divorce was due to infidelity). See 3 Nephi 12:31-32. Hence, saying that his ex-wife divorced him doesn’t resolve the question at all.

      I’m just really surprised that this community of people who profess to follow Christ and hang on his every word don’t appear to give a da*n about his teachings on a subject as important as adultery.

      Putting Denver himself aside, aren’t the scriptures I’ve still cited still in force, if you believe like Denver that prophets since Joseph Smith haven’t had full authority? How could people with such incomplete authority supersede prior scripture?

      Will the new community of people Denver is forming ignore these scriptures on divorce and adultery? When this community gives the sacrament to people, will it refuse it to people who are re-married?

      Will Tim Malone, Denver Snuffer, or anyone just answer the question – or admit that they’re every bit as selective in reading scripture as the church that they condemn?

      Surely this community of people who are on the verge of potentially breaking up marriages and leaving their church–all in the name of following Christ, and often based on detailed scriptural exegesis of words like “Gentiles”–will answer a simple question about a basic teaching of Christ – right?

      Like

      • So we shouldn’t search for truth because it might cause bad things to happen? I don’t think so, and besides that who is breaking any marriages over this? No one except a fool. For answers to your a questions about adultery, read The Peacemaker. It explains all your questions step by step

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    • I have done more research. I think that Denver himself should be excused from any impropriety because he was acting at the time under the traditional LDS view that remarriage after a divorce is ok, and I do not believe one sins in ignorance.

      Nevertheless, I believe that Denver’s new communities need to think seriously about how they will interpret the law of marriage as given in the Bible, if they believe they LDS Church has been in apostasy.

      Like

    • I am going to do something a bit risky, and try to address the question of divorce/remarriage = adultery. This is a common criticism leveled not only against Denver but against anyone divorced; at least once, if not continually. It is also a topic that apparently few are willing to examine or respond to, even though it comes up constantly and it is a topic worthy of addressing. Probably because none of us feel worthy or capable of addressing it. But I’m going to try anyway.

      Specifically, I am addressing any who might be accusers.

      First, I must note that when I run across people talking about divorcees being adulterers, including the accusations against Denver, the questioners almost without fail come across as very emotionally charged. It would seem rather apparent that many of the people talking about it are “victims” in some way of divorce, who hold a deep resentment for how it hurt them. I sympathize, and I’m not interested in judging people for this, but I think it is worth noting because charged emotions ALWAYS taint a discussion when they surface, and so if someone is approaching this from an emotional place, it will not be an edifying discussion.

      For the sake of argument at the moment, I am going to make what I think is a large concession, and accept the idea that all who divorce have committed adultery. All of us (myself included). Whether or not it is true, whether or not I agree, I will make that concession for the sake of my remarks. I will assume all divorcees have committed adultery.

      To the topic, there are two major stances that seem to be the crux of most of the accusing. All use of scripture is used to frame and buttress at least one of these two stances, in every count I’ve seen of accusing the divorced (and possibly remarried) of their adultery.

      The first stance is generally one that treats adulterers as incapable of repentance and forgiveness from God. They have committed adultery, they are therefore branded for the remainder of their lives as “adulterers,” and will receive the wages of an adulterer in Judgment. While this is never admitted or spoken outright, and unlikely to even be acknowledged inwardly, the remarks and specific use of scripture illustrate sharply that this is the stance in many of the cases.

      I find this to be a grossly skewed stance, one that must be established and maintained by pain, anger, and other such emotions that prevent and blockade compassion, truth and forgiveness. Sadly, it denies the atonement. The Lord has established that while a person can commit “unpardonable sin,” it is never detailed in any way as the sin of adultery. Period. What he HAS said concerning adultery specifically includes the requirement that we forgive at least the first offense (D&C 42:25-26). We are never told that forgiveness means we can secretly brand them and hold them guilty for eternity.

      What do we know of the forgiveness that God has granted to others besides ourselves? I’d wager next to nothing, if not simply nothing. I think this is why God warns us not to judge others based on their actions, because we never know which side of repentance and forgiveness they are on. We don’t know if God has forgiven these “adulterers.” But if God HAS forgiven them, remitting their sins, then how wise would it be for any person to still try to hold them guilty? We would be setting ourselves up as an enemy to God, and surrendering forgiveness of our own sins by seeking to deny it for others.

      Now, if a person is willing to truly concede that a repentant “adulterer” can be forgiven of God, and thereby no longer be counted as an adulterer, there is still the second stance — A person’s repentance must look a certain way; specifically in this case, the “wayward” spouse must come groveling back to the “righteous” spouse and regain their full trust and forgiveness and reestablish the loving relationship they once had. There may be instances where that could be required, such as when they are not divorced but married, and one is out cheating on their spouse. Then perhaps the return may be expected. But there are no grounds beyond personal desire for making the statement that a divorced couple must reunite and fall in love and be one again. They are divorced, they are both free of all vows and obligations to one another. Sure, it was through breaking them, and that is a sad and terrible thing, but the break is done and the obligation ended. They may have lost the blessings associated with those contracts and covenants, but that does not preclude a repentance and forging of new covenants, albeit with God and another party.

      The offended party may claim the reunion is necessary as part of restitution, but repentance does NOT require all sins be fully reconciled, especially prior to God’s forgiveness being extended. When Alma the Younger went out trying to right the wrongs he’d brought about, that was the fruits of his repentance, not a prerequisite. He turned to God and God forgave him, before an ounce of restitution was made. Restitution is certainly part of the fruits, but in some things it simply cannot be made. Sometimes circumstances make it impossible, such as resolving a lie to someone who is now dead, or returning stolen goods to a store no longer in business. Or sometimes a person is so damaged and hurt by another, or so finished with the dynamic turmoil of their clashing weaknesses, that they are unable to bring themselves to be interested in falling back in love with the other. To account this as a sin would be perverse.

      If a couple divorced, at least one of the two parties was deeply unhappy in the relationship, and believed it beyond the capacity of the two parties to resolve. God isn’t interested in requiring parties who don’t want to be together to be bound eternally. That’s an abomination, there is no love in that. Sure, one party may want it, but if the other doesn’t then it is only selfishness that would require them to be reunited, disregarding the heart of the one who would rather be gone. That is abominable, painting as virtuous the sin of selfishness.

      So, if those who commit adultery can repent and be forgiven of God, and they don’t have to return to their prior spouse, then what is appropriate? Is it not appropriate to try and love again? To find another who is a better fit, where love can flow naturally and family can grow? To try and further God’s work of extending eternal life among His children? Should they instead remain separate and single into eternity, refusing God His work of bringing to pass the eternal life of man, which requires man and woman sealed together and bringing forth posterity? Wouldn’t that just frustrate things more, making that also a sin?

      Do we understand the statements of the Lord concerning remarriage correctly, or is our understanding perhaps what needs adjustment?

      I am not denying adultery is a sin. I am not denying it’s impact on those it hurts. My spouse divorced me, but in my case the divorce was relieving, after the brutality of that marriage and the immense effort spent to hold it together. I simply was not up to the task of taking the abuse, I couldn’t do it anymore, so I accepted her offer of divorce after the marriage counseling entirely failed. Perhaps I committed adultery in this, as many would brand me. I’ll accept that. But I remarried, found a wonderful wife with whom love abounds, and we have a family. I would not tear this family apart to return to my abusive spouse, and anyone who says God requires that of me knows not God.

      Speaking specifically of Denver now, I see no reason to still hold him guilty of “adultery,” whether he committed it or not. We don’t know if he has been forgiven of God, but there is certainly plenty of evidence pointing at his forgiveness. His offense was singular and he has not repeated it, meaning he met the required conditions for our forgiveness in D&C 42:25-26. As a divorced spouse, as opposed to a cheating one, he had no obligation to return to his prior spouse, nor she to him. He has remarried, and if anything it would seem that to divorce now and split up the current family would be to return to the sin of adultery. THEN he MIGHT be worthy of being cast out according to scripture. But that’s still a big “if,” and it certainly hasn’t happened, meaning that we really don’t have the slightest grounds to condemn him and count him unworthy of serving God based on the potential committing of adultery in his past.

      The same goes for all divorced people and all sinners in general, for we are certainly all sinners and to account one’s sins as lesser than another’s is to miss the point that we all require mercy and forgiveness, because the absolute standard is perfection and God cannot look upon any unforgiven sin with the least degree of allowance.

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  15. Here is a thought I have had: if I am raising my future family in a community, should I continue the practice of baptism at the age of 8? D&C 68:27 speaks of being baptized for the remission of sins, but what sins have children made at that point if they’re alive in Christ? I know I am humbled and excited at the prospect of being rebaptized! (Maybe I’ll fly out there, Tim!) And it makes me wonder if my children will end up wishing they could be rebaptized in their later years.

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    • I have a few thoughts, maybe they will help.

      One, baptism by water is done for the purpose of receiving the baptism by fire and the holy ghost. It would be great for people to be receiving it at 8 rather than later in life, like so many of us.

      The responsibility to teach them what they must know to receive that devolves upon the parents, not the primary teachers. If we as parents take that duty seriously, to teach our children what they must know and prepare them beforehand, it would seem that the Lord considers them able at that age.

      I’ve wondered a lot about the term “remission of their sins,” in terms of what it does not say: remission of their PAST sins. I am not proclaiming this as a truth I know, but a consideration as to whether the only sins remitted are the prior ones. The phrasing in Alma 4:14, “retaining a remission of their sins” is interesting, because the wording is not anything like “renewing” or “gaining another” remission. It is retaining a singular, prior one, before the later offenses. Perhaps it can be lost and must be renewed, I don’t know, but it seems a remission of sins at 8 could be “retained” throughout life, covering their later offenses.

      Just some thoughts.

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      • Seems like sound logic. I like it.

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  16. From Wikepedia:

    “Prior to the Fall of 1992, some members of the LDS Church in Manti and surrounding areas occasionally met together in study groups and informal gatherings to discuss their interpretations of the gospel. Some of these individuals already had Mormon Fundamentalist leanings…. Harmston, as well as other men and women, began to teach what they knew of the ‘original, pure’ doctrines of Joseph Smith in their study groups as well as to interested individuals. This teaching began as informal discussions, evolving into a two-day, organized seminar referred to as the Models.

    “Frustrated with the ‘dilution’ of the ‘pure’ doctrines taught by Joseph Smith, Harmston and his wife, Elaine, say they sought a closer relationship with God and answers to their questions about the modern-day practices of the LDS Church. They decided to seek those answers at home, in a prayer circle, using the ‘true order of prayer,’ as taught in LDS temples” (Johns, p. 32).

    Jim and Elaine Harmston “donned their Mormon temple robes at home and created a makeshift altar from a pillow and piano bench topped by a white bed sheet. They knelt to utilize the ‘true order of prayer,’ a ritual said to facilitate otherworldly communication…. They say God gave them the same answer He gave Smith (in the grove when asking what church to join) only this time He said the current church was among the ‘wrong’ churches and they should start their own”.

    Anyone see any parallels here? Food for thought.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Karl – I hadn’t heard of Harmston until he was brought up in the comment thread on Tim’s last post. I’m curious to know what doctrine Harmston expounded. Where is it written so that any can come and judge for themselves the merit? I’m sure there is, but like I said, I haven’t heard of him until now, so I’m just ignorant on this subject.

      The points of similarity you mention between Harmston and Denver are not what made me interested in Denver’s message. It is the massive amount of writing he’s done expounding the teachings of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon in a way that (1) not a single church leader from the time of Joseph Smith has even come close to and (2) that is internally consistent and connects things together in the scriptures that I had tried to do for some years before I heard of Denver.

      One other thought, the tares will always spring up with the wheat. If there is a true prophet that the Lord raises up, there will always be a false prophet as well to confuse the matter. I was listening to TPJS and Joseph Smith taught that if Moses hadn’t have manifested his miracles at the time he did, the people would have seen and believed in the manifestations of the Egyptians. This required opposition in all things is what forces us to resort to the Holy Ghost to discern the matter. And it’s no simple process.

      But none of this proves the matter with Denver. He could be false along with Harmston. Denver, Harmston, Joseph Smith, Thomas Monson, etc. The same standard needs to be applied in the discerning of the true and false. The Holy Ghost. And that’s the labor that each one of us is engaged in right now, whether we lean toward Denver or Harmston or President Monson or someone else.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Karl – One other thought on this. I just wanted to give an example of something that no one I know of since Joseph Smith has ever been able to expound. Note that this is not the doctrine that originally caught my interest (that had to do with 1 Nep 13 and 14, 2 Nep 26-30, Jacob 5 and 3 Nep 16,20,21; that’s a whole other big subject! Refer to Denver’s blog posts between about April and Oct 2010).

      The doctrine I refer to is in Alma 13, Joseph’s King Follett discourse and the following from Denver: His Alma 13 posts on his blog, his article “First Three Words” and his 9th talk. Tell me of even one other man who has expounded this doctrine of the Priesthood and the Plan of Salvation since Joseph Smith. I feel confident that there is no one.

      Liked by 1 person

  17. This: “After all, who among us really ever “deserves” to partake of the sacrament?”

    And this: “Equally sad is the fact that, for wanting to live my religion, the LDS Church will no doubt cast me out.”

    And this, too: “I am seeking a community where I can help the poor with my tithing. 100% of my tithing will be used to help the poor. It will not go to pay the salaries of any church employee or leader, to build malls or to maintain any church building.

    “We do not need church buildings to meet in small groups or communities. We can and will meet in homes, in parks, at the beach, in the mountains or wherever we choose. Because we have the priesthood we can administer the sacrament and baptize. This is not a new church. It is simply practicing our religion the way the Lord intended it. The Internet makes it easy to organize.

    “There will be no hierarchy, no curriculum other than the scriptures and no formal program that must be rigidly followed in a set, three-hour block. We will not go over the same lessons every four years, drinking milk ad infinitum, but will minister to the needs of each other according to our desires to learn and the gifts of the spirit. And we can sing songs from any source we choose.

    “No Poor Among People of Zion

    “Above all, we will help each other come onto Christ. We will teach what he requires to open the heavens, to receive angels, to commune with the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn, and to be ministered unto directly by the Savior, something I almost never hear about in the LDS Church. There will be no poor among us. The whole purpose is to be a people worthy of Zion.”

    Amen. Amen. Amen.

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Tim, Since you now seem to be determined to leave the Church, will you resign, or wait for the disciplinary process to take it’s course? Serious question, as with this post I think your fate is sealed. Best regards.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Tim
      Congratulations on your decisions. If you cannot find someone there to baptize you, I’ll come to you.
      I think our “community” has now more than doubled since the talk. You will be blessed because of the actions you will take.

      Keith Henderson

      Liked by 1 person

      • Oh how I wish that some blogfolk would actually take the time to read Denver Snuffer’s words and listen to his talks before getting their neck hairs up and charging around with flamethrowers, but instead, doing as Joseph Smith exemplified by studying it all out in your mind, expending effort in due diligence and then taking it to the Lord. But, sadly, haters gonna hate, flamethrowers gonna flame. Seeing what’s already going around the internet in word fights and scripture snippet semantics battles makes me feel like I’ve had my eyelids stitched open and am being subjected to a looped replay of Abbott and Costello’s Who’s On First. I have read every book, paper and blogpost, and have listened to the tapes or attended in person every talk that Denver Snuffer has presented. I have searched out every single scriptural reference provided in his asides, or in his footnotes, as if my life depended upon it, because it surely does. I, myself, took it to the Lord and it was confirmed to me in a way that the adversary could not possibly counterfeit, that Denver Snuffer’s words are the words of Christ, and that He has indeed commissioned Denver C. Snuffer, Jr. to act as His emissary. I stand under my own name, and not hidden behind a pseudonym to say amen to that of which Keith Henderson so humbly testified at the close of the tenth talk. I agree with Julie that Denver Snuffer has heretofore functioned in the pattern of an Abinadi, and if the pattern holds, we may therefore expect a prophet to emerge from the smoldering ash of the Phoenix talk, with power and authority. Denver’s soft caution to use care in how his name is treated (because the Lord will bless those who bless him, and curse those who curse him) is an apt warning also according to the pattern of Abinadi – those who use flamethrowers will themselves be burned in the coming fires.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Keith, I have been so overwhelmed with comments, texts, phone calls and forum messages I had not read your comment carefully. I thank you for your kind offer to come to California to baptize me. I am pleased to have made arrangement with James Uhl, who will be in Southern California this weekend and has agreed to baptize me and Mike Hamill. We are scouting the location over the next two days. Thanks your for your sealing pronouncement at the lecture last week. God bless us all in this new direction from the Lord through His servant.

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    • Karl, That is a great question, one I have been pondering for the past three days. I read this morning of a sister with seven children who resigned her membership. She agonized over the decision until she made it and acted upon it and then felt peace. I too have been agonizing over the decision. Here are the two sides of the equation:

      1) For the longest time I have followed the idea I could do more good serving in the church. I looked for opportunities to serve and strive to fulfill both my home teaching and my stake clerk responsibilities. That all changed last month when the Bishop placed me under informal probation. I should be released from my stake calling because I have no temple recommend and the handbook states that is a requirement.

      2) On the other hand, I do NOT want to put my Bishop, my Stake President and members of the High Council through a waste of their time with a disciplinary council. I served on a High Council for several years in another stake. It takes hours out of the day of sixteen good men. I think that would be selfish of me when my mind is made up. So yes, I am fairly certain the right thing to do is to send in my resignation.

      I know Rock wrote he would not resign and would only go kicking and screaming. I have also previously stated I would not resign, but would stand before the High Council to explain myself. I no longer feel that way. I wrote my defense before the High Council and posted it here on my blog earlier this year or maybe even late last year. I am satisfied with that. If anyone in the stake cares to know they can read it online.

      So, Karl, thank you. You have just helped me make up my mind. I will now go and present it to the Lord in prayer but I think I already know the answer. That’s why it has been bugging me for the last three days.

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  19. Hi , you don’t answer my questions, but thought I would pose this one anyway. What do you all see as a difference between being commissioned of Christ (to baptize) and having authority given? If one is commissioned, they are given the authority to do something. So I’m just confused on your point on that. Would you clarify for me? Thanks, Ruth .

    Sent from my iPhone

    >

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Ruth, is your question for me? I answered most of your questions on the previous post. Perhaps you missed my replies. I studied that very question out last night. Here is the answer I got. D&C 20:73 wording is effective when D&C 20:37 has been followed. In my case it was not. Therefore I want to be baptized with the wording in 3rd Nephi 11:25

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  20. Also, you did not answer the question posed at the beginning of the 99.99% of the world. Comment?

    Sent from my iPhone

    >

    Liked by 1 person

    • Here is the answer as found in the post: “What happened Tuesday went entirely unnoticed by most of the world.” Can’t be clearer.

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    • I hope you will listen to the talk for yourself, then ask the Lord yourself – follow the pattern of James and seek wisdom direct from the source, not from men. As dear and wise and open and vulnerable and sincere as Tim Malone is, these are times to get all knowledge, understanding and wisdom straight from God, who promises to give freely to all who ask.

      Liked by 1 person

  21. I am relying on that one last promise from Denver to be true: that he would NEVER organize another church to compete with the LDS church, nor would he EVER become the leader of it. Of course, if the Lord asks him to do it, what’s a man to do? He has to change his mind and do it, right? After all, virtually every previous teaching of Denver from the Second Comforter (2006), he has not flipped on, and is now teaching something eerily like the Harmston-Manti debacle. I know you think he’s not seeking followers, because of his assurance to you that he is not; that he will not organize a church, rather a “community”; that there will be no leader although someone will have to actually hold priesthood to administer sacrament and baptism, who could fit that requirement? Previously he assured us repeatedly that he was not competing with the Brethren; even encouraged us to follow them in righteousness of course; now he is not only antagonistic but directly competitive, because he has “wrested” the authority from the Brethren. Of course, he didn’t do it you see, the “Lord” did it. Hamston seemed certain of his calling by revelation and had everything Snuffer has and more; further scores of “witnesses” testified that they “knew” Harmston was the real deal. Too bad none of Harmston’s prophecies ever really happened. Bitter fruit indeed. Previous to that John Koyle was “sure” he was visited by Angels who called him to establish the Dream Mine. From all accounts he was the nicest, kindest man you could ever know; there is still a core of true believers in John Koyle, some 68 years after his death, at the age of 85 years. So far only bitter fruit. If you google LDS-Visions, you will read numerous “visions” members of the church have had as early as the 1880’s, of what they were told in vision would “soon” come to pass; horrid apocalypic visions, with very believable images. Here we are 130 years later, with no fulfillment here either. The Church has, and has always had, a significant marginal type of member that just isn’t satisfied with the existing program (I understand that, as I think I fall into this class too). In the zeal of wanting more light and knowledge, they are easy prey for every individual who decides to strike his own course back to God, and then unfortunately, having “found” the way, must insist that OTHERS follow his way, to get back to God too. Please, I plead with you: revert to the original teaching of Denver Snuffer, which was: you don’t need any man to point out the way (including DS!); you can approach the Lord directly and find the pathway. Also: until now, Snuffer consistently taught that you don’t have to become COMPETITIVE with the Brethren to do this; you don’t have to lose your membership in the one true and living church (these are the Lord’s words, see D&C 1) to do this; you don’t have to WORSHIP the Brethren to do this. Please don’t exchange one form of idolatry of the Brethren, for an idolatry of another man (DS). I used to wonder how grown rational men and women could have their brain so highjacked as to follow Jim Jones, drink the purple koolaid to their actual physical demise. However, I am now hoping and praying that this experiment of Denver Snuffer will not end in something similar to Jim Jones. And, if you think my warning is exaggerating the reality of what is developing here, then I hope you are right. And I hope, Tim Malone, that if this doesn’t work out well, that you will at least think through a contingency plan to rejoin the Church, once you tire of the bitter fruit you are ready to consume. God bless all those who are humble followers of Jesus Christ.

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    • Previous to that John Koyle was “sure” he was visited by Angels who called him to establish the Dream Mine. From all accounts he was the nicest, kindest man you could ever know; there is still a core of true believers in John Koyle, some 68 years after his death, at the age of 85 years. So far only bitter fruit.

      Doug Mendenhall among them (source: Doug’s “Jedi” workshops that Denver–dubiously in my opinion–claims to not be able to comment on even though having read Denver is a prerequisite to attend).

      Like

      • Here’s the link to Denver’s “no comment”.

        Like

      • From: Douglas Mendenhall
        Date:04/10/2014 12:18 PM (GMT-07:00)
        To: Douglas Mendenhall
        Subject: Snuffer this Saturday, jeid in IL

        Reminder that Denver Snuffer is speaking this Saturday in Grand Junction, CO at the Grand Vista Hotel at 9:30 AM. He will speak for at least three hours. If you want the CDs you can order them from us. It is $18 which includes shipping for the three CDs. Just mail a check, also email me you want them and we will ship them next Mon. or Tues. after we get back.

        I am doing a jedi One and Two workshop in Yorkville, IL on the 18th and 19th. It will be Friday night and all day Saturday. Can’t wait for that one! I feel a trip to Nauvoo on the way back is warranted….

        Also we are doing a jedi Four workshop on May 3. If enough people want it we can do a three the night before. Let me know.

        All kinds of things are going on as people’s veils drop all around the world. One person has a daughter that is dealing with nightmares, but they really aren’t. They are nasty demons and devils coming through the portals of hell to torment the daughter. I asked her who was in their life that was opening conduits to hell or who might have cords attached to her daughter allowing them in. The mom me told that the shield don’t seem to be working like they did before. If you have cords attached from someone that might be a little or very dark the shielding may not do much good. You might want to cut the cords of attachment.

        Another person had a daughter that had a “bad dream” of being attacked by a very dark or evil person. Her feet were slashed. After she woke up she found that her feet were swollen and hurt. It wasn’t a dream….. We chatted and also found cords attached to her daughter from an at the moment not so nice person. Interesting what is going on. It reminds me of a workshop last year where a guy talked about his chickens being killed in a secure locked coup and the horns on his ram being eaten away. Who does that to a ram? How do you do that to a ram?

        Some things kind of crack me up. I read where a woman said that she isn’t hardly bothered by dark entities and then in the next sentence said that she had been depressed for some seven years. I am sure that entities had NOTHING to do with her depression. I’m sure it was all food allergies or something like that. We all know that the adversary can’t effect food allergies. Or exacerbate them. Right?

        We all might want to take our personal worthiness up a notch or two, maybe get to know Him. Shielding will work if it is suppose to. What does that mean? There are people that are here to experience more, have asked for more and therefore get more. If you need to have a being attack you, for example Joseph Smith, then it will happen, shielded or not. Think about that one for a while. If it’s true the as wide as heaven opens for us that hell gets equal time, then we might want to get some understanding on how to deal with it. From the calls and emails I get, some are in need of more education on how to deal with what is going on.

        If you want to see a great flick, go see “Gods Not Dead.” Open your box up a little. Have a good friend that I took up to Montana with me to meet a man whose veil dropped a few years ago. He was talking at a Pentecostal Church. We walked in and saw guitars and drums up front. My friend wondered what that was about. We soon found out. They did an hours worth of “praise God music”. It was simply beautiful. After that the preacher did a short sermon. He asked for us to turn to the person next to us and hold their hands and say a one minute prayer for them. The woman in front of us asked if we’d say the prayer with her and her husband. I held the womans hands and said a one minute prayer for her and then she prayed for me for one minute. Talk about getting out of my box of shyness! But it was wonderful to pray for her as she was there listening. It was such a good experience I kept wondering if we could do it the next week in Sacrament Meeting……….*:)) laughing Hey maybe a small guitar and ten minutes of singing praises to our Father?

        I have been reading in “More Dead Men’s Secrets” about Solomon. Quote: “You might be for forgiven for wondering, how many other “modern” wonders might the Ancient Hebrew Civilization have been familiar with? Have you heard that story from the Bible, which tells of the visit to King Solomon by somebody called the queen of Sheba? Well, did you know about the discovery of the Ethiopian epic Kebra Nagast (from about 850 BC), which tells that very same story from the other side?
        But it goes further.
        It records that King Solomon lavished on a visiting Ethiopian queen enormous riches and gifts… “and a vessel wherein one could traverse the air.” Carrying a cargo of animals as well as men, via Egypt, it “traveled in one day a distance which [usually] took three months to traverse.”
        Shocking as that may seem to you, please bear with me if I mention one more claim concerning King Solomon.
        In Srinagar, India, is a mountain called Tahkti Suleiman (Solomon’s Mountain).
        Think about that for a moment. Is it not strange that a mountain in far away India should be named Solomon’s Mountain — after a Hebrew King? But can you guess why it received that name?
        Here’s why:
        Muslim tradition declares that King Solomon flew there in a flying machine and arranged for the construction of the temple on the summit.
        Now I’d like to ask you another question. Why would we find two different reports, or claims if you wish — FROM TWO DIFFERENT CONTINENTS — one from Africa, the other from Asia, concerning Solomon of Israel and flying machines?
        Doesn’t that make you wonder?
        But, you say, didn’t manned flight begin with the Wright brothers in 1903?
        Surprise! Here’s another thing you should know about the ancient past:
        Were you aware that people all over the world have retained separate memories of a period when aviation was a well-known concept? And not only that, but they claim that flight was a frequent occurrence?
        Their writings demonstrate a knowledge of aerodynamics and an awareness of the factors of take-off propulsion, braking and landing.”

        Wow, do you think we are being lied to? How about the tens of thousands of ancient skeletal remains that the Smithsonian has from graves in the US of people over 7 feet tall and up to twelve feet tall. Why aren’t they talked about and shown? What about those found with huge heads with double rows of teeth? Why are ancient technologies suppressed? What is their agenda for doing so? Just wondering.

        Went and saw Noah, the movie. Good action flick, horrible bible flick. Speaking of Noah. Did you know that the city of Enoch was still floating up in the air at the time of the flood and there was much interaction between them and Noah? Go see Jack the Giant Slayer to get an idea of a floating city, like Enoch, that has tons of treasure in it, like Enoch. Why does Hollywood show us such things, such hidden truth? Yet we still can’t see it?

        Let me know if you want Snuffer CDs, to attend a workshop or two or just want to say hi. Hey, you all can meet me in Nauvoo on Easter!

        Doug Mendenhall

        From: Douglas Mendenhall
        Date:04/23/2014 10:15 AM (GMT-07:00)
        To: Douglas Mendenhall
        Subject: jedi Three and Four

        Jedi Two workshop is Friday May 2 from 5 PM to 10 PM at the SLCC Larry Miller Campus, 9750 S. 300 W. in Sandy. In the KGMC building, room 150 D Quail. Cost is $30 per person.
        Jedi Three is Saturday May 3 from 9 AM to 5 PM at the SLCC Larry Miller Campus in the MFEC building, in the auditorium. Cost is $100 for new people, $150 for new married couple, $50 for repeat attenders.
        To attend a Three workshop requires that you have come to a One and Two workshop. A Four requires attending the previous three workshops.

        Denise and Kitten will be helping in both workshops. My friend Dave C. will be presenting on Saturday also. We need to know if you are planning on coming by prepaying for the workshop, especially for Saturday since we have so many materials that need to be purchased, copied, burned, etc. Just email me that you are coming and then send a check.

        Denver Snuffer CDs are available. He also has the talk available on his blog in printed form. The CDs are $18 which includes shipping. He talked for about three hours.

        Just got back from a wonderful workshop in Illinois with some great people, very open people. Those are fun to do and you can discuss a whole lot more than you can when judgment shows up in a room. A huge thank you to those that came. It was a great trip. Also, thanks my friend Dale who provided his car and conversation for the trip so I didn’t have to rent a car.

        Over the years I have had opportunities to interview various people about diverse subjects. One was a woman that had been trained to be a high priestess in a satanic cult. That was very eye opening for me. I talked to others that were victims of satanic abuse and cults, were mind controlled, government sex slaves/couriers, a woman with no finger prints (they were somehow “burnt” off) and many others. Of course you know that I live in the world of gifted people and that might be strange to some, though it has become common here in our home.

        One of the most interesting was a man living in a senior center because of ill health. He had grown up herding cattle and sheep in the San Rafael Swell area in central/eastern Utah.

        He told us about herding some cattle and how one calf took off. He chased it behind a large rock and found an entry way into the mountain. The “cave” was smooth on both sides and the roof, as if cut by some machine. He went in and found a huge door on a pivot. He pushed the door and it opened into a room where there was a large sarcophagus. The lid was off the sarcophagus and inside was a very large being. He look carefully and found that it had six fingers and six toes, two rows of teeth and a reptilian shaped head. He estimated it was over ten feet tall. There was a spear head next to it that he estimated weighed some two-hundred pounds. He visited the cave another four times over the years.

        He tried to draw a map where the cave was located in the San Rafael area but it really didn’t help as it wasn’t that good of a map. So we did the next best thing. A friend that had an airplane flew down to Mt. Pleasant and took my daughter, Denise, and another sighted friend in his plane. They flew to the San Rafael area so Denise and our friend could see if they could “see” where it was at. At the exact same time both women pointed to an area on the side of the canyon and said, “It’s there.” Our friend marked it on a map so he could go there later on the ground. An attempt was made with vehicles but they couldn’t get in. It would require going in on horses or mules since the area is inaccessible to vehicles. Unfortunately he died in an airplane crash. No, I don’t have the map and no I have no desire to hike in that inhospitable area of Utah.

        My point is that there are many things that we can’t explain on this earth and are out of the norm. Heck, all of you are out of the norm. Another person I know told me of an area now under water, under Lake Mead in Nevada. A long time ago they found an ancient city there, some thirty five miles in length. They excavated thousands of skeletons, all over eight feet in height. The Smithsonian Institute showed up and took all the bones. Have you heard about it? In history books it talks about the “natives” in that area and how small they were.

        On the way home from a workshop in AZ years ago we stopped near a site close to Flagstaff. The archaeologists put their interpretation of what happened there. At one location they said it was where the native people played games. As I walked through the entry way I could feel it was not a “game” area. Denise came up to me and said, “Dad they didn’t play games here, this is a sacred area.” She later told me she was talking to those that lived there but they couldn’t understand each other. After a while she came over and said that now they understood each others language. (I have no idea how that works). I guess much of what we are told might be guess work or they just plain cover it up as illustrated below.

        Here an excerpt from Jonathon Gray’s email to me. He wrote Dead Men’s Secrets about things that we aren’t suppose to know or they keep hidden:

        “Here is another report concerning resistance to publicizing discoveries which happen to be at variance with accepted scientific dogma. The truth WILL eventually radiate around the world, as it deserves. A friend of mine had a long talk with a New Zealand girl called Lisa Kerr. She’d done extensive traveling, like many young New Zealanders, who
        head out on their traditional OE (overseas excursion). Lisa, amongst several jobs she got around the world, worked for a while with the New Mexico Park’s Department. During her term of employment there was a big “washout” in one of the Park regions and I’m assuming it was up in Pueblo country around Taos. The flash flood scoured out embankments and in doing so a large number of anomalous skeletons were exposed. Lisa and her colleagues were assigned the task of gathering up the remains and placing them into crates.

        Also in attendance at the site were Smithsonian Institute officials and FBI agents. Each day as Lisa and the other Park’s Department employees went onto the site, they were searched for cameras. Similarly they were searched as they left the site each day to make sure they weren’t removing artifacts. They were also obliged to sign “secrecy documents” ensuring that they would never divulge details of their participation in this undertaking.

        The reason for this degree of secrecy stems from the fact that the skeletons were of people who were about 8 feet tall. They had six fingers on each hand and six toes per foot. They also had a strange, double row arrangement of teeth. The crates containing the recovered remains, at the termination of work, were taken away by the Smithsonian officials and, undoubtedly, will never be seen again. Strangely enough, there is a report of two similar skulls having been found in New Zealand’s far north around the beginning of the 20th century.

        Lisa later had official “hassles” when trying to come home to New Zealand and was severely grilled by US government functionaries as she attempted to depart from the U.S.”

        There are many things like this all over the world. The Smithsonian seems to be part of the cover-up. Pretty sad. They wouldn’t want to keep technologies and discoveries from you would they?

        Take care and see some of you next week.

        Doug Mendenhall

        Like

  22. My heart is filled with concern for those who are taking this step so quickly. Perhaps it’s because I have not received a witness that what is happening is actually the will of the Lord.

    1. Baptism: Why is it necessary to be re-baptized? If you were baptized by one holding the Aaronic Priesthood, why is it necessary to do it again? I realize that 3 Nephi 11:20-40 says the word “Authority” rather than “Commissioned.” Perhaps it is because Christ himself gave Nephi the authority directly. (Authority: Noun: power, right, license)

    On the other hand D&C 20: 73 says it differently. It says “Having been commissioned by Jesus Christ.” (Commissioned: (Verb: enlisted, recruited) Perhaps this is because Christ did not give them the authority directly but it was passed from one man having the authority to those who would be commissioned.

    Did Joseph, the prophet of the restoration, make an error? Why is Denver, who is a defender of the restoration and the words of Joseph Smith, discounting his authority to make this change?

    2. Tithing: Alma 13: 14-15 says that Abraham paid his tithing to Melchizedek, who was the high priest. Abraham followed the commandment to pay his tithing to his leader. What Melchizedek did with the tithing was upon his shoulders. Abraham had followed the law.

    Also in the early days of the the Church tithing was taken to the storehouse and dispensed as those leaders saw fit. It built a temple and helped the poor. If the tithing was misused, it was on the shoulders of the leaders… not those who were obedient to the commandment.

    It looks to me that there was an order… not a willy nilly way of distributing the money as each individual saw fit.

    Do I approve of how our tithing money is being spent… without accountability… No. I am against having my tithing money spent on Malls and private hunting reserves etc. I have kept my agreement with the Lord in paying my tithes and now if the Lord is unpleased with how it is spent… it is up to him to handle it with those who have misused it… in his due time.

    3. Zion: I though Zion was a state of the heart as well as a place. I realize there is a desire for “like minded” people to gather and there are communities, which I know of, that are doing just that. They are preparing themselves by physical preparation as well as spiritual support. They are not leaving the confines of the Church body but are preparing themselves and their families quietly. Independently.

    They are not putting themselves in a position to be ex-ed from the body of the Saints, which is exactly what Denver is proposing.

    And I have to ask… just how many of you proposing to follow Denver’s direction are physically prepared to take care of your families when times really get tough as Denver suggests is coming? When you leave the body of the Saints… you diminish your support of gathering together. Wards and Stakes serve as a profound service in case of such events.

    If these communities are formed through the Internet and there is great distance between you… where will your support come from with the Internet goes down.

    4. Not Attending Meetings: D&C 50: 17-25 I may not be edified by the “Milk Toast” messages but I am edified by sitting next to brothers who are doing their best to keep the commandments and sisters doing likewise.

    I take responsibility for my own edification by reading the scriptures when I’m at the point of screaming.

    I am actually amazed that people will come together each Sunday and participate in something that is so boring. Why do they do it…. Commitment and Conversion to the Gospel. Ultimately they are trying to follow the Lord the best way they know how.

    Churches of worship were set up by the early apostles… Paul wrote to them. These bodies met for edification. (And Denver is saying he’s not setting up a new church?) These bodies will be looking to him… their Prophet more more direction. Guarantee it!

    7 women to Authorize One Man… Sound like the beginning of a organization handbook to me.

    5. Pride: I see where pride can easily enter into these new communities by thinking they are better than the “Body of the Saints.” “We know more than you do. We are the ones following the will of the Lord. We have the true prophet because the authority has been taken away from the old one.” Specialness in the LDS Church is the very thing Denver has warned about in earlier talks.

    As an LDS body of only 15,000… and perhaps 5,000 who are active… I have been concerned about the few numbers that may be considered true “Saints.” Now how many will ultimately follow Denver’s advice. 1000, 700, 300? With all these low numbers.. their will be very few to “Meet” him. This feels like a prideful position to be in.

    6. Where are the true followers? I believe they are those who turn their hearts and minds to the Lord… live his commandments and defend him. Many are not members of the LDS church. They have “Zion” hearts and will be called to join the remnant in the establishment of that great city. I think you can be a true follower and still remain with the body of Saints in the LDS church.

    With all that being said… I’m still waiting for the transcript and I have not abandon the idea but I will have to have my concerns satisfied before “jumping ship” or being “shoved out.” I am in constant prayer… and desire a strong witness of the Lord for the direction He wants me to go.

    I welcome any answers to my questions or insight that may be helpful in seeing this picture more clearly.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Kathryn. I felt in my heart that I wanted to attempt an answer to your very thoughtful questions, especially since I recognize that they are directed at individuals like me. I thank you for your concern and appreciate very much your always respectful manner in responding to Tim and others. Just understand I am no scholar or scriptorian, but I will do my best to address your concerns and questions.

      >>”1. Baptism: Why is it necessary to be re-baptized? If you were baptized by one holding the Aaronic Priesthood, why is it necessary to do it again? I realize that 3 Nephi 11:20-40 says the word “Authority” rather than “Commissioned.” Perhaps it is because Christ himself gave Nephi the authority directly. (Authority: Noun: power, right, license)

      I’ve often wondered why Alma and those who listened to him needed to be baptized. Weren’t they already baptized? Wasn’t there already a church organized, with priests and teachers?

      And what about Nephi and the people after The Resurrected Lord’s visit in the Americas? They required a new baptism as well. Though that is probably obvious because he had fulfilled the Old Law.

      But even Christ Himself needed a baptism, but was it a baptism into the church based upon the Old Law or a New Law? Did it make any difference that it was John the Baptist who performed the ordinance, or could He have been immersed by any Priest?

      The understanding that has come to me is this new baptism is forming a new covenant. The Lord is making a new covenant–one founded upon His Higher Law. I, like you, have been baptized under a covenant, but I am ready to form a new bond with Him; one that will require greater sacrifices of me, but which will allow me to progress to higher spheres of Light and Blessings.

      What Alma the elder, taught in Mosiah 18:8-10 demonstrates this Higher Law, I think. I will be openly and willingly showing The Lord Who I follow and what I am prepared to do. It is the equivalent of putting some skin in the game. He is requiring a sacrifice from me, the first of many I am certain.

      >>”On the other hand D&C 20: 73 says it differently. It says “Having been commissioned by Jesus Christ.” (Commissioned: (Verb: enlisted, recruited) Perhaps this is because Christ did not give them the authority directly but it was passed from one man having the authority to those who would be commissioned.

      >>”Did Joseph, the prophet of the restoration, make an error? Why is Denver, who is a defender of the restoration and the words of Joseph Smith, discounting his authority to make this change?”

      I do not know. Perhaps this is why we are each being required to make this a matter of sincere prayer. Let’s have The Lord teach us of His Ways. Is it really a matter of language or could it be more a matter of having His Power? How many so-called Priesthood holders currently on the rolls of the LDS Church definitely have Christ’s Authority *and* Power?

      I would encourage you to read Denver’s blog posts titled “Laying on Hands” for further light on baptism.

      >>”2. Tithing: Alma 13: 14-15 says that Abraham paid his tithing to Melchizedek, who was the high priest. Abraham followed the commandment to pay his tithing to his leader. What Melchizedek did with the tithing was upon his shoulders. Abraham had followed the law.

      Tithing is a lesser law. I am looking to live a Higher Law–Consecration. What did the handling of monies look like in the City of Enoch initially, and during Adam’s day? Was it money or was the currency Love?

      There are the initial stages of still being in this world, with its requirement to operate by money, but The Lord will guide His People through the transition to a moneyless society. I am so looking forward to the whole experience. I have much to learn.

      >>”Also in the early days of the the Church tithing was taken to the storehouse and dispensed as those leaders saw fit. It built a temple and helped the poor. If the tithing was misused, it was on the shoulders of the leaders… not those who were obedient to the commandment.

      >>”It looks to me that there was an order… not a willy nilly way of distributing the money as each individual saw fit.

      >>”Do I approve of how our tithing money is being spent… without accountability… No. I am against having my tithing money spent on Malls and private hunting reserves etc. I have kept my agreement with the Lord in paying my tithes and now if the Lord is unpleased with how it is spent… it is up to him to handle it with those who have misused it… in his due time.”

      This question/comment caused me to think of a recent statement I read from Denver. You’ll have to forgive the paraphrase since I’m unsure which blog post it was in. (Perhaps Tim or another will know.) –Those who think that they are without accountability before The Lord just because they do what their Priesthood leader tells them to will regretfully discover that is not so. We cannot give our agency over to another. If I do something my bishop asks me to do, knowing that it contradicts the will of The Lord and/or His Commandments, then I will bear fully the consequences of making that choice, now and hereafter.

      >>”3. Zion: I though Zion was a state of the heart as well as a place. I realize there is a desire for “like minded” people to gather and there are communities, which I know of, that are doing just that. They are preparing themselves by physical preparation as well as spiritual support. They are not leaving the confines of the Church body but are preparing themselves and their families quietly. Independently.

      >>”They are not putting themselves in a position to be ex-ed from the body of the Saints, which is exactly what Denver is proposing.

      >>”And I have to ask… just how many of you proposing to follow Denver’s direction are physically prepared to take care of your families when times really get tough as Denver suggests is coming? When you leave the body of the Saints… you diminish your support of gathering together. Wards and Stakes serve as a profound service in case of such events.

      You are very wise in pointing this out. How much better would it be if all The Lord’s people would practice true Charity. It is actually a very sad thing you are pointing out. Are you saying that The Lord’s church is not about helping all people, regardless of status, income or beliefs? I can only look forward to my neighbors contemptuous glares now? I cannot hope to be given bread if my family should need it? I suppose that sounds very much like what I see already happening. And that is NOT THE LORD’S WAY.

      So, where is Christ more likely to be found on any given Sunday? Is He in a church building constructed with sacred funds, listening to talks and lessons bereft of His Input, acknowledging His ritualized Sacrament, or is He with the homeless family living in a shelter 10 blocks away, comforting the mother who weeps for the well-being and safety of her babies as they live in an open environment with nothing to claim their own?

      For me and my house, we will look to YHWH for our safety and needs, especially since we can have no hope for His church to do that.

      >>”If these communities are formed through the Internet and there is great distance between you… where will your support come from with the Internet goes down.”

      I agree with your concerns about solely relying upon the internet for gathering together. The Spirit has whispered to me that I and my family should seek this out locally. I feel that using the internet initially will be a great way to get it all started and allow those of us who choose to follow the Spirit’s stirrings to connect. But, regardless of the potential failings of the internet, we should all seek to just follow where we are lead to be and what to do.

      >>”4. Not Attending Meetings: D&C 50: 17-25 I may not be edified by the “Milk Toast” messages but I am edified by sitting next to brothers who are doing their best to keep the commandments and sisters doing likewise.

      >>”I take responsibility for my own edification by reading the scriptures when I’m at the point of screaming.

      >>”I am actually amazed that people will come together each Sunday and participate in something that is so boring. Why do they do it…. Commitment and Conversion to the Gospel. Ultimately they are trying to follow the Lord the best way they know how.

      >>”Churches of worship were set up by the early apostles… Paul wrote to them. These bodies met for edification. (And Denver is saying he’s not setting up a new church?) These bodies will be looking to him… their Prophet more more direction. Guarantee it!”

      That is right that we each take responsibility for our own edification. He wants us to be engaged in our own learning. And yet, is that not still relying upon the arm of the flesh? In and of ourselves we can do nothing. Nothing. We cannot comprehend a single verse of scripture without The Lord’s guiding Spirit.

      Sometimes people continue on the same, boring, Lifeless, Spirit-void path because of fear–of what others will say or do rather than Fear of The Lord; or because it is so very comfortable and they are content with what they have and do. If Eve had never listened to her inner stirrings to progress and Be More by partaking of the fruit with full understanding of the consequences, the whole Plan would not have come to fruition. She was and continues to be one of the Wisest Women to walk this earth.

      So, are we diligently attending weekly church to calm our fears, or satisfy ego’s need for a pat on the back, or to show the worldly church we are “good,” or because we just don’t know any better?

      I am struck by the similarities between what I have been experiencing over the last year and what someone without Christ’s Gospel feels. It is the same yearning that sets him/her on a path to find the Gospel. I have the Gospel and am actively developing a strong bond with my Savior. I am seeking Zion now–a desire He has carefully nurtured in my heart since many years ago. He is now directing me on how to do what I was sent here to do while fulfilling that sacred desire of mine.

      Long has my heart yearned to be amidst people who have no contention, no competition, no judgment, no fear, no poor; a people who are of One Heart and One Mind; who are filled with the Love of God. I desire to be among those who are anxiously engaged, not dutifully going to their three hour block meetings because they either know not what else to do or are afraid to do anything different or just don’t care because they “know” they’ve got Exaltation down. Whatever the heck that means.

      I am not looking to Denver beyond hearing the message. I’ve never met him and have never spoken to him through email, online, over the phone or face-to-face. I’ve only attended one of the talks in person and what I experienced there was potent and confirming. And the adversary of my soul tormented me quite a bit in response. I do not look to Denver to baptize me or tell me what to do every day. I am looking to The Lord for all those things now. He will lead me to the person, the time and the place for baptism. He will also guide me about being with like-minded souls.

      >>”7 women to Authorize One Man… Sound like the beginning of a organization handbook to me.”

      Sounds to me like we all need to understand how The Lord feels about women in His Church and how He defines their roles.

      >>”5. Pride: I see where pride can easily enter into these new communities by thinking they are better than the “Body of the Saints.” “We know more than you do. We are the ones following the will of the Lord. We have the true prophet because the authority has been taken away from the old one.” Specialness in the LDS Church is the very thing Denver has warned about in earlier talks.”

      I’m not feeling more special or better than anyone. You are correct that pride is a human weakness. Only the individual can ask The Lord to remove all that pride. It will be something we will all need to continue to be wary of and seek to be cleansed of. I am grateful The Lord requires a broken heart and contrite spirit from His People.

      >>”As an LDS body of only 15,000… and perhaps 5,000 who are active… I have been concerned about the few numbers that may be considered true “Saints.” Now how many will ultimately follow Denver’s advice. 1000, 700, 300? With all these low numbers.. their will be very few to “Meet” him. This feels like a prideful position to be in.”

      It sounds to me like most are prideful and few are truly humble. With which do you align yourself? Is that very determination a sign of humility or pride?

      >>”6. Where are the true followers? I believe they are those who turn their hearts and minds to the Lord… live his commandments and defend him. Many are not members of the LDS church. They have “Zion” hearts and will be called to join the remnant in the establishment of that great city. I think you can be a true follower and still remain with the body of Saints in the LDS church.

      >>”With all that being said… I’m still waiting for the transcript and I have not abandon the idea but I will have to have my concerns satisfied before “jumping ship” or being “shoved out.” I am in constant prayer… and desire a strong witness of the Lord for the direction He wants me to go.”

      I encourage you to continue to weary The Lord with your concerns and thoughts. He is glad to receive them and teach you the answers. Know that sometimes He will require us to take a step of faith before He will give us that “strong witness.” Asking questions is not in and of itself a bad thing, but it does have a tendency to allow us to ignore practicing true faith. His Path is not meant to be easy. He will require sacrifices on our parts to demonstrate where our Loyalty lies.

      I have been guilty of believing that I would receive Exaltation and Eternal Life just by attending a three hour church block every week.

      I have been guilty of believing that because I was baptized at eight, have been married in a temple, have accepted callings, have served and helped as a VT, attended faithfully every GC and always sustained the general leadership and my local leaders that I was making myself worthy for the great blessings of seeing Father, Mother and YHWH (Yahweh-Jehovah) one day.

      I have been guilty of worshiping callings and those in callings.

      I have been guilty of judging my brothers and sisters, and looking condescendingly on those who have tattoos or piercings, for how they spend their money, for smoking, for not going to Sunday church or not accepting a calling. The list goes on.

      I have been guilty of enjoying City Creek.

      I have been guilty of not looking after my brothers and sisters in need.

      I have been guilty of believing all I was doing–the repetitious prayers, the scattered attempts at scripture reading, the diligent temple attendance, paying of tithes and offerings was sufficient to prepare me to face hard times.

      I have been guilty of not forgiving my brother or sister their wrongs against me. I have been guilty of not forgiving myself.

      I have been guilty of not showing love, of not having true Charity for others and even for myself.

      I am not one of those who was enthusiastically on board with the message Denver has been sharing. It took time for me to willingly open my heart to any alternative ideas. I say alternative, but really it was opening myself up to what is and has always been in the scriptures. That was the real problem–I had not been a sufficient student of The Lord’s Word. This despite my faithful attendance to all meetings.

      I went through fire this last year in realizing how weak I still am, how woefully I lack knowledge of God’s Word, how inadequately prepared all those outward behaviors have left me for what Christ demands of those who will pick up their cross and follow Him.

      I feel naked and like a baby. Where has been the Power in all the ordinances I have partaken of? Why, if I have striven faithfully my entire adult life to listen to prophets, seers and revelators, to do as they have counseled, am I still so unprepared for a harder path? Why do I not feel stronger? Why is my flesh so weak…still?

      Could it be that The Lord’s people and church have become like a malnourished child, bereft of real Power and Nourishment–with bellies distended by powerless rituals, eyes too weak to see clearly, hearts wearily beating a slow, dead beat, minds numbed from lack of Food? What is the fear behind not being willing to openly, in the brightness of daylight, thoughtfully, prayerfully looking into that question? If it is all a fallacious and damning path, Christ’s reach is still wide enough to save. Fear not.

      My faith, my works and my loyalty has been misplaced. YHWH has patiently worked on me this last while teaching me, consoling me, healing me and correcting me. He is so Wise. He is so Kind. He is so Tender. But He will not put off His Return just because we choose to be slow to hear Him.

      His Warning Voice is sounding. Who will have ears to hear?

      Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Kathryn. I felt in my heart that I wanted to attempt an answer to your very thoughtful questions, especially since I recognize that they are directed at individuals like me. I thank you for your concern and appreciate very much your always respectful manner in responding to Tim and others. Just understand I am no scholar or scriptorian, but I will do my best to address your concerns and questions.

      >>”1. Baptism: Why is it necessary to be re-baptized? If you were baptized by one holding the Aaronic Priesthood, why is it necessary to do it again? I realize that 3 Nephi 11:20-40 says the word “Authority” rather than “Commissioned.” Perhaps it is because Christ himself gave Nephi the authority directly. (Authority: Noun: power, right, license)

      I’ve often wondered why Alma and those who listened to him needed to be baptized. Weren’t they already baptized? Wasn’t there already a church organized, with priests and teachers?

      And what about Nephi and the people after The Resurrected Lord’s visit in the Americas? They required a new baptism as well. Though that is probably obvious because he had fulfilled the Old Law.

      But even Christ Himself needed a baptism, but was it a baptism into the church based upon the Old Law or a New Law? Did it make any difference that it was John the Baptist who performed the ordinance, or could He have been immersed by any Priest?

      The understanding that has come to me is this new baptism is forming a new covenant. The Lord is making a new covenant–one founded upon His Higher Law. I, like you, have been baptized under a covenant, but I am ready to form a new bond with Him; one that will require greater sacrifices of me, but which will allow me to progress to higher spheres of Light and Blessings.

      What Alma the elder, taught in Mosiah 18:8-10 demonstrates this Higher Law, I think. I will be openly and willingly showing The Lord Who I follow and what I am prepared to do. It is the equivalent of putting some skin in the game. He is requiring a sacrifice from me, the first of many I am certain.

      >>”On the other hand D&C 20: 73 says it differently. It says “Having been commissioned by Jesus Christ.” (Commissioned: (Verb: enlisted, recruited) Perhaps this is because Christ did not give them the authority directly but it was passed from one man having the authority to those who would be commissioned.

      >>”Did Joseph, the prophet of the restoration, make an error? Why is Denver, who is a defender of the restoration and the words of Joseph Smith, discounting his authority to make this change?”

      I do not know. Perhaps this is why we are each being required to make this a matter of sincere prayer. Let’s have The Lord teach us of His Ways. Is it really a matter of language or could it be more a matter of having His Power? How many so-called Priesthood holders currently on the rolls of the LDS Church definitely have Christ’s Authority *and* Power?

      I would encourage you to read Denver’s blog posts titled “Laying on Hands” for further light on baptism.

      to be cont’d

      Like

      • continuation:
        >>”2. Tithing: Alma 13: 14-15 says that Abraham paid his tithing to Melchizedek, who was the high priest. Abraham followed the commandment to pay his tithing to his leader. What Melchizedek did with the tithing was upon his shoulders. Abraham had followed the law.

        Tithing is a lesser law. I am looking to live a Higher Law–Consecration. What did the handling of monies look like in the City of Enoch initially, and during Adam’s day? Was it money or was the currency Love?

        There are the initial stages of still being in this world, with its requirement to operate by money, but The Lord will guide His People through the transition to a moneyless society. I am so looking forward to the whole experience. I have much to learn.

        >>”Also in the early days of the the Church tithing was taken to the storehouse and dispensed as those leaders saw fit. It built a temple and helped the poor. If the tithing was misused, it was on the shoulders of the leaders… not those who were obedient to the commandment.

        >>”It looks to me that there was an order… not a willy nilly way of distributing the money as each individual saw fit.

        >>”Do I approve of how our tithing money is being spent… without accountability… No. I am against having my tithing money spent on Malls and private hunting reserves etc. I have kept my agreement with the Lord in paying my tithes and now if the Lord is unpleased with how it is spent… it is up to him to handle it with those who have misused it… in his due time.”

        This question/comment caused me to think of a recent statement I read from Denver. You’ll have to forgive the paraphrase since I’m unsure which blog post it was in. (Perhaps Tim or another will know.) –Those who think that they are without accountability before The Lord just because they do what their Priesthood leader tells them to will regretfully discover that is not so. We cannot give our agency over to another. If I do something my bishop asks me to do, knowing that it contradicts the will of The Lord and/or His Commandments, then I will bear fully the consequences of making that choice, now and hereafter.

        to be cont’d

        Like

      • continuation:
        >>”3. Zion: I though Zion was a state of the heart as well as a place. I realize there is a desire for “like minded” people to gather and there are communities, which I know of, that are doing just that. They are preparing themselves by physical preparation as well as spiritual support. They are not leaving the confines of the Church body but are preparing themselves and their families quietly. Independently.

        >>”They are not putting themselves in a position to be ex-ed from the body of the Saints, which is exactly what Denver is proposing.

        >>”And I have to ask… just how many of you proposing to follow Denver’s direction are physically prepared to take care of your families when times really get tough as Denver suggests is coming? When you leave the body of the Saints… you diminish your support of gathering together. Wards and Stakes serve as a profound service in case of such events.

        You are very wise in pointing this out. How much better would it be if all The Lord’s people would practice true Charity. It is actually a very sad thing you are pointing out. Are you saying that The Lord’s church is not about helping all people, regardless of status, income or beliefs? I can only look forward to my neighbors contemptuous glares now? I cannot hope to be given bread if my family should need it? I suppose that sounds very much like what I see already happening. And that is NOT THE LORD’S WAY.

        So, where is Christ more likely to be found on any given Sunday? Is He in a church building constructed with sacred funds, listening to talks and lessons bereft of His Input, acknowledging His ritualized Sacrament, or is He with the homeless family living in a shelter 10 blocks away, comforting the mother who weeps for the well-being and safety of her babies as they live in an open environment with nothing to claim their own?

        For me and my house, we will look to YHWH for our safety and needs, especially since we can have no hope for His church to do that.

        >>”If these communities are formed through the Internet and there is great distance between you… where will your support come from with the Internet goes down.”

        I agree with your concerns about solely relying upon the internet for gathering together. The Spirit has whispered to me that I and my family should seek this out locally. I feel that using the internet initially will be a great way to get it all started and allow those of us who choose to follow the Spirit’s stirrings to connect. But, regardless of the potential failings of the internet, we should all seek to just follow where we are lead to be and what to do.

        to be cont’d

        Like

      • continuation:
        >>”3. Zion: I though Zion was a state of the heart as well as a place. I realize there is a desire for “like minded” people to gather and there are communities, which I know of, that are doing just that. They are preparing themselves by physical preparation as well as spiritual support. They are not leaving the confines of the Church body but are preparing themselves and their families quietly. Independently.

        >>”They are not putting themselves in a position to be ex-ed from the body of the Saints, which is exactly what Denver is proposing.

        >>”And I have to ask… just how many of you proposing to follow Denver’s direction are physically prepared to take care of your families when times really get tough as Denver suggests is coming? When you leave the body of the Saints… you diminish your support of gathering together. Wards and Stakes serve as a profound service in case of such events.

        You are very wise in pointing this out. How much better would it be if all The Lord’s people would practice true Charity. It is actually a very sad thing you are pointing out. Are you saying that The Lord’s church is not about helping all people, regardless of status, income or beliefs? I can only look forward to my neighbors contemptuous glares now? I cannot hope to be given bread if my family should need it? I suppose that sounds very much like what I see already happening. And that is NOT THE LORD’S WAY.

        So, where is Christ more likely to be found on any given Sunday? Is He in a church building constructed with sacred funds, listening to talks and lessons bereft of His Input, acknowledging His ritualized Sacrament, or is He with the homeless family living in a shelter 10 blocks away, comforting the mother who weeps for the well-being and safety of her babies as they live in an open environment with nothing to claim their own?

        For me and my house, we will look to YHWH (Yahweh-Jehovah) for our safety and needs , as well as a community of like-hearted people, especially since we can have no hope for His church to do that.

        >>”If these communities are formed through the Internet and there is great distance between you… where will your support come from with the Internet goes down.”

        I agree with your concerns about solely relying upon the internet for gathering together. The Spirit has whispered to me that I and my family should seek this out locally. I feel that using the internet initially will be a great way to get it all started and allow those of us who choose to follow the Spirit’s stirrings to connect. But, regardless of the potential failings of the internet, we should all seek to just follow where we are lead to be and what to do.

        cont’d

        Like

      • continuation:
        >>”4. Not Attending Meetings: D&C 50: 17-25 I may not be edified by the “Milk Toast” messages but I am edified by sitting next to brothers who are doing their best to keep the commandments and sisters doing likewise.

        >>”I take responsibility for my own edification by reading the scriptures when I’m at the point of screaming.

        >>”I am actually amazed that people will come together each Sunday and participate in something that is so boring. Why do they do it…. Commitment and Conversion to the Gospel. Ultimately they are trying to follow the Lord the best way they know how.

        >>”Churches of worship were set up by the early apostles… Paul wrote to them. These bodies met for edification. (And Denver is saying he’s not setting up a new church?) These bodies will be looking to him… their Prophet more more direction. Guarantee it!”

        That is right that we each take responsibility for our own edification. He wants us to be engaged in our own learning. And yet, is that not still relying upon the arm of the flesh? In and of ourselves we can do nothing. Nothing. We cannot comprehend a single verse of scripture without The Lord’s guiding Spirit.

        Sometimes people continue on the same, boring, Lifeless, Spirit-void path because of fear–of what others will say or do rather than Fear of The Lord; or because it is so very comfortable and they are content with what they have and do. If Eve had never listened to her inner stirrings to progress and Be More by partaking of the fruit with full understanding of the consequences, the whole Plan would not have come to fruition. She was and continues to be one of the Wisest Women to walk this earth.

        So, are we diligently attending weekly church to calm our fears, or satisfy ego’s need for a pat on the back, or to show the worldly church we are “good,” or because we just don’t know any better?

        I am struck by the similarities between what I have been experiencing over the last year and what someone without Christ’s Gospel feels. It is the same yearning that sets him/her on a path to find the Gospel. I have the Gospel and am actively developing a strong bond with my Savior. I am seeking Zion now–a desire He has carefully nurtured in my heart since many years ago. He is now directing me on how to do what I was sent here to do while fulfilling that sacred desire of mine.

        Long has my heart yearned to be amidst people who have no contention, no competition, no judgment, no fear, no poor; a people who are of One Heart and One Mind; who are filled with the Love of God. I desire to be among those who are anxiously engaged, not dutifully going to their three hour block meetings because they either know not what else to do or are afraid to do anything different or just don’t care because they “know” they’ve got Exaltation down. Whatever the heck that means.

        I am not looking to Denver beyond hearing the message. I’ve never met him and have never spoken to him through email, online, over the phone or face-to-face. I’ve only attended one of the talks in person and what I experienced there was potent and confirming. And the adversary of my soul tormented me quite a bit in response. I do not look to Denver to baptize me or tell me what to do every day. I am looking to The Lord for all those things now. He will lead me to the person, the time and the place for baptism. He will also guide me about being with like-minded souls.

        to be cont’d

        Like

      • continuation:
        >>”7 women to Authorize One Man… Sound like the beginning of a organization handbook to me.”

        Sounds to me like we all need to understand how The Lord feels about women in His Church and how He defines their roles.

        to be cont’d

        Like

      • continuation:
        >>”5. Pride: I see where pride can easily enter into these new communities by thinking they are better than the “Body of the Saints.” “We know more than you do. We are the ones following the will of the Lord. We have the true prophet because the authority has been taken away from the old one.” Specialness in the LDS Church is the very thing Denver has warned about in earlier talks.”

        I’m not feeling more special or better than anyone. You are correct that pride is a human weakness. Only the individual can ask The Lord to remove all that pride. It will be something we will all need to continue to be wary of and seek to be cleansed of. I am grateful The Lord requires a broken heart and contrite spirit from His People.

        >>”As an LDS body of only 15,000… and perhaps 5,000 who are active… I have been concerned about the few numbers that may be considered true “Saints.” Now how many will ultimately follow Denver’s advice. 1000, 700, 300? With all these low numbers.. their will be very few to “Meet” him. This feels like a prideful position to be in.”

        It sounds to me like most are prideful and few are truly humble. With which do you align yourself? Is that very determination a sign of humility or pride?

        to be cont’d

        Like

      • continuation and final:
        >>”6. Where are the true followers? I believe they are those who turn their hearts and minds to the Lord… live his commandments and defend him. Many are not members of the LDS church. They have “Zion” hearts and will be called to join the remnant in the establishment of that great city. I think you can be a true follower and still remain with the body of Saints in the LDS church.

        >>”With all that being said… I’m still waiting for the transcript and I have not abandon the idea but I will have to have my concerns satisfied before “jumping ship” or being “shoved out.” I am in constant prayer… and desire a strong witness of the Lord for the direction He wants me to go.”

        I encourage you to continue to weary The Lord with your concerns and thoughts. He is glad to receive them and teach you the answers. Know that sometimes He will require us to take a step of faith before He will give us that “strong witness.” Asking questions is not in and of itself a bad thing, but it does have a tendency to allow us to ignore practicing true faith. His Path is not meant to be easy. He will require sacrifices on our parts to demonstrate where our Loyalty lies.

        I have been guilty of believing that I would receive Exaltation and Eternal Life just by attending a three hour church block every week.

        I have been guilty of believing that because I was baptized at eight, have been married in a temple, have accepted callings, have served and helped as a VT, attended faithfully every GC and always sustained the general leadership and my local leaders that I was making myself worthy for the great blessings of seeing Father, Mother and YHWH (Yahweh-Jehovah) one day.

        I have been guilty of worshiping callings and those in callings.

        I have been guilty of judging my brothers and sisters, and looking condescendingly on those who have tattoos or piercings, for how they spend their money, for smoking, for not going to Sunday church or not accepting a calling. The list goes on.

        I have been guilty of enjoying City Creek.

        I have been guilty of not looking after my brothers and sisters in need.

        I have been guilty of believing all I was doing–the repetitious prayers, the scattered attempts at scripture reading, the diligent temple attendance, paying of tithes and offerings was sufficient to prepare me to face hard times.

        I have been guilty of not forgiving my brother or sister their wrongs against me. I have been guilty of not forgiving myself.

        I have been guilty of not showing love, of not having true Charity for others and even for myself.

        I am not one of those who was enthusiastically on board with the message Denver has been sharing. It took time for me to willingly open my heart to any alternative ideas. I say alternative, but really it was opening myself up to what is and has always been in the scriptures. That was the real problem–I had not been a sufficient student of The Lord’s Word. This despite my faithful attendance to all meetings.

        I went through fire this last year in realizing how weak I still am, how woefully I lack knowledge of God’s Word, how inadequately prepared all those outward behaviors have left me for what Christ demands of those who will pick up their cross and follow Him.

        I feel naked and like a baby. Where has been the Power in all the ordinances I have partaken of? Why, if I have striven faithfully my entire adult life to listen to prophets, seers and revelators, to do as they have counseled, am I still so unprepared for a harder path? Why do I not feel stronger? Why is my flesh so weak…still?

        Could it be that The Lord’s people and church have become like a malnourished child, bereft of real Power and Nourishment–with bellies distended by powerless rituals, eyes too weak to see clearly, hearts wearily beating a slow, dead beat, minds numbed from lack of Food? What is the fear behind not being willing to openly, in the brightness of daylight, thoughtfully, prayerfully looking into that question? If it is all a fallacious and damning path, Christ’s reach is still wide enough to save. Fear not.

        My faith, my works and my loyalty has been misplaced. YHWH has patiently worked on me this last while teaching me, consoling me, healing me and correcting me. He is so Wise. He is so Kind. He is so Tender. But He will not put off His Return just because we choose to be slow to hear Him.

        His Warning Voice is sounding. Who will have ears to hear?

        Like

    • continuation:
      >>”3. Zion: I though Zion was a state of the heart as well as a place. I realize there is a desire for “like minded” people to gather and there are communities, which I know of, that are doing just that. They are preparing themselves by physical preparation as well as spiritual support. They are not leaving the confines of the Church body but are preparing themselves and their families quietly. Independently.

      >>”They are not putting themselves in a position to be ex-ed from the body of the Saints, which is exactly what Denver is proposing.

      >>”And I have to ask… just how many of you proposing to follow Denver’s direction are physically prepared to take care of your families when times really get tough as Denver suggests is coming? When you leave the body of the Saints… you diminish your support of gathering together. Wards and Stakes serve as a profound service in case of such events.

      You are very wise in pointing this out. How much better would it be if all The Lord’s people would practice true Charity. It is actually a very sad thing you are pointing out. Are you saying that The Lord’s church is not about helping all people, regardless of status, income or beliefs? I can only look forward to my neighbors contemptuous glares now? I cannot hope to be given bread if my family should need it? I suppose that sounds very much like what I see already happening. And that is NOT THE LORD’S WAY.

      So, where is Christ more likely to be found on any given Sunday? Is He in a church building constructed with sacred funds, listening to talks and lessons bereft of His Input, acknowledging His ritualized Sacrament, or is He with the homeless family living in a shelter 10 blocks away, comforting the mother who weeps for the well-being and safety of her babies as they live in an open environment with nothing to claim their own?

      For me and my house, we will look to YHWH for our safety and needs, especially since we can have no hope for His church to do that.

      >>”If these communities are formed through the Internet and there is great distance between you… where will your support come from with the Internet goes down.”

      I agree with your concerns about solely relying upon the internet for gathering together. The Spirit has whispered to me that I and my family should seek this out locally. I feel that using the internet initially will be a great way to get it all started and allow those of us who choose to follow the Spirit’s stirrings to connect. But, regardless of the potential failings of the internet, we should all seek to just follow where we are lead to be and what to do.

      to be cont’d

      Like

  23. Amen. Hoping you will be able to join up with our SoCal group at times.

    Liked by 1 person

  24. Tim,

    My wife and I appreciated this post. it is good to have your example, sharing Denver’s comments real-time and providing a forum for others to respond. We were both touched by some comments.

    Be of good cheer, brother. Even persecution shoukd bring us an (inner) smile – it puts us in good company. The Lord is our goal and and companion.

    Steve and Ginny Graham

    P.S. We are north of Seattle and would love to participate in a beach-side gathering 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

  25. Dear Tim,

    I want to offer you some counsel, not because I am anyone important but because I care. I feel if there are people you love, you need to help walking in the example of Christ even though there may be offense taken by them. Know that I am not perfect. I and others need to be reminded of some important things.

    Feel free to dismiss anything I say, though I know I speak the truth.

    It is very sad to me to witness families coming apart because one spouse is moving ahead too quickly and with too much zeal.

    It is a commandment and Eternal law that Two shall be One

    In the case when Carol left the lecture because it was very distressing for her, I feel you should have followed her out too. You know you are able to listen to the Lecture on CD after. I feel it was the wrong choice to remain while your wife left as it showed a separation, both of you going in different directions.

    Instead you could have followed her out, comforted her, shown love and patience, borne a gentle testimony, let her know it was Ok for her to be feeling all the emotions, she was going through. You could have offered your support at that very moment.

    Carol obviously is a good Woman who cares a great deal about yours and her salvation else she would not have gone to the temple to pray.
    There are people trying to do what Denver is doing, trying to teach like he is teaching, believing they have received a commission when they have not. We need to be redeemed ourselves and our families first BEFORE we teach others. Get our homes in order first, before we teach others.

    Do not try to be Denver, do not go to get togethers and meetings without your spouse, put them first.

    I see an image of a great prize in the sky, a prize most desirous. Many people see it too and rush forward, leaving behind their spouse who cannot run as fast, and in their zeal they step on everybody, push everyone aside, climb over people and in blindness to all around them, being so focused on the prize, they hurt and kill many.

    There are others, seeing the prize know it is big enough to share with many. These make their journey two by two, male and female, slowly towards the prize, stopping to help many of the injured and learning as they go, always keeping the prize in their line of sight.

    Once the first are in arms reach of the prize, they see that the prize can ONLY be given to TWO who have become ONE.

    There is a scripture in Corinthians:
    1 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; else were your children unclean, but now are they holy.

    Do we really believe the scriptures? Do we really think the promised are of worth today? Do the scriptures contain power?

    This scripture applies to any marriage where there are all the fruits of a righteous spouse showing forth the fruits and example of Christ.

    If your spouse in not on board just yet, but you are walking as one in the Lord as much as can be…with patience, love, meekness, love unfeigned, kindness, example, then this scripture and promise applies to your family.

    By their fruits you shall know them.

    I know personally how difficult it is to awake to the fact of how things really are, to have you whole foundation build on the church, challenged. I want to suggest to you that you trad very carefully and with much love. I feel you wife should not have been made a public example of one who is struggling with her faith to embrace Denver’s teachings.

    Denver has said many times, this is not about him. So it is not about if she believes Denver or not. It is about the message he has been called by God to deliver. These are Gods words, not Denver’s. If one listens closely you will hear that above all, you need to make this journey together, that zeal is a beast and it can kill, that you need to be one with your spouse, this is not a quick fix journey, it will take time etc…

    There is coming a sure time when things will happen so openly to the church that many will be left dazed and lost. How important it is to keep our relationships with our struggling spouse alive and open, because our example now of our belief and faith in the direction God has given through Denver will be of great benefit. Be that patient example. It is so hard to have a paradigm shift and indeed very uncharitable to force someone who is not ready.

    Trust God, he has got you both covered.

    Anyhow, I say this all with love and personal experience.

    Eva and Andrew. G

    Liked by 2 people

  26. This hymn has been lighting up my mind today:

    Now let us rejoice in the day of salvation.
    No longer as strangers on earth need we roam.
    Good tidings are sounding to us and each nation,
    And shortly the hour of redemption will come,

    When all that was promised the Saints will be given,
    And none will molest them from morn until ev’n,
    And earth will appear as the Garden of Eden,
    And Jesus will say to all Israel, “Come home.”

    We’ll love one another and never dissemble
    But cease to do evil and ever be one.
    And when the ungodly are fearing and tremble,
    We’ll watch for the day when the Savior will come,

    When all that was promised the Saints will be given,
    And none will molest them from morn until ev’n,
    And earth will appear as the Garden of Eden,
    And Jesus will say to all Israel, “Come home.”

    In faith we’ll rely on the arm of Jehovah
    To guide through these last days of trouble and gloom,
    And after the scourges and harvest are over,
    We’ll rise with the just when the Savior doth come.

    Then all that was promised the Saints will be given,
    And they will be crown’d with the angels of heav’n,
    And earth will appear as the Garden of Eden,
    And Christ and [H]is people will ever be one.

    Wm. W. Phelps

    Liked by 1 person

    • My amen, and my love.

      Liked by 2 people

  27. Tim, where did you get audio so fast and can you share?

    Like

    • Confetti Antiques and Books in Spanish Fork has all the CDs and books available.

      Like

  28. Tim, thank you for sharing. I tried posting a couple of posts and I don’t see them, not sure how long it takes for posts to show….

    Like

  29. How do Denver Snuffer or those sympathetic to his ideas interpret the following scripture from D&C 115:3-4?

    3 And also unto my faithful servants who are of the high council of my church in Zion, for thus it shall be called, and unto all the elders and people of my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world;

    4 For thus shall my **CHURCH** be called **IN THE LAST DAYS**, even ***The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints***.

    Notice that it refers to a single “church” existing in “the last days” – not the “next to last days” or “latter days” – but the “last days” before Christ’s coming. It doesn’t seem to leave a lot of room for later apostasy or organizations. Or does it?

    Like

    • From your questions it sounds like you are not familiar with what Denver has shared on his blog or his books let a lone what the message has been in the Lectures. I suggest you read all of his writings and the lectures, then ponder, fast, and pray about your questions and seek your answers from the Lord-like we all are supposed to do. There were many who picked apart what Joseph Smith said and did. Yet, that did not change the fact he was and IS an actual Prophet of the Lord. The same goes for Denver. I tried to post earlier, that as has been said in the beginning it is best to focus on the message. To take what is said and go to the Lord. Do not focus on the messenger, but obviously that doesn’t stop people. I Know the message Denver shared was from the Lord. That makes what ever is done, the Lord’s work not Denver’s. So again, I suggest you take your issues to the Lord.

      Like

    • France, since no one seems to answer you to your specifications, I suggest you take your answers to the Lord(which we are supposed to do any way!)
      As has been said from the beginning-people should pay attention to and pray about the Message that has been given and leave the Messenger Out of it.
      People will always have things to pick on about both the message and messenger…..we need to be connecting to the Lord and only the Lord for our self,
      and to receive answers from HIM. If you are actually interested in the Message, to study what has been given
      and Pray about it all. There were many things people wanted to condemn Joseph Smith for. That did not change the fact that he was and IS a true and actual
      Prophet of the Lord and he did what the Lord wanted the best he could. I have already received the witness I need from the Lord about both the Message and
      the messenger!!

      Like

      • Letyourlightshine,

        I am concerned about people being deceived by a false prophet. I am also astonished at the hypocrisy I am seeing in people who claim to want to follow Christ, yet blithely seem ignore Christ when it doesn’t suit them – people who cast stones at the LDS Church leaders, yet blithely ignore issues with their current leaders.

        Perhaps I shouldn’t care and just watch as people screw up their lives.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Thank you France, I like your post. Thank you for your concern about our lives. I understand where you are coming from. I am very concerned about my life as well as others as well. I understand that people are worried about the whole “following a false prophet” and so forth. I have done my best to study, ponder, pray and all I can do to be able to recognize truth when I read or hear it. Personally for me the whole idea of Denver being divorced never concerned me because I have had the strong witnesses by the Lord and that is all I need. If you want to make it an issue that is your problem. If people are really throwing stones at “leaders” then I am confident that the Lord will correct them. But I think you are also throwing stones. I realize when we want to warn our brothers and sisters we try and point out certain things…just like they did Joseph Smith. I think we could all say prayers of faith for one another.

        Like

    • Hello Francis,

      What are your thoughts about what happens with The Lord’s church during the millennium? Are we currently the same church that Enoch established, so that when Zion (City of Enoch) joins us, we won’t notice a difference between their faith and ours? Will we always be called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? And when we are in the blessed state of Zion, who will be our leader? Will it be Joseph Smith? Will it be Enoch? Father Adam? Whomever is the senior apostle? The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself?

      From your understanding of the scriptures and what Spirit has taught you, what do you see the church looking like leading up to The Savior’s Return? Will we always need a prophet and apostles? If so, will they continue to do what they are doing? Giving semi-annual conferences, monthly messages, callings, ordainings, etc.? Do you expect any changes? If so, what exactly?

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      • I deeply apologize for misspelling your name, France. Too much writing going on today. I hope you will forgive my blunder.

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  30. Tim and community

    Am I the only one that notices that what you have decided to do has absolutely nothing to do with denver snuffer?
    You said the church doesn’t control the priesthood and you admitted that there can be more than one prophet.
    So Tim or anyone, if you don’t like the LDS church you can go use the priesthood and never have to speak the name of denver snuffer. He pointed out some cool truths that you have learned are true, but if your post is true you could have left the church any time you wanted and baptised etc.
    I hope no one is silly enough to think that there aren’t dozens of prophets on the earth with equal or greater authority then denver or thomas monson.
    Do you not think alma the elder lost his priesthood through wicked arcs with king noah? But he didn’t need abinidi to repent and access the priesthood. We all lose access to the priesthood from time to time and need to repent. But ANYONE who repents and exercises faith can access as much priesthood as any other man.
    Could someone surpass denver in spirituality? Absolutely. God could raise up anyone at any time. There is nothing limiting any of us. So if there will be “no leaders” besides Christ, then what do I care about denver snuffer more than Joe Schmo down the street?

    Liked by 1 person

  31. Hi Tim,

    I have done everything I could to get you and your readers to engage in an honest discussion about the words of Christ. By your silence, you have refused.

    I have delivered the words I needed to deliver. I have put you and your readers on notice. It will not be possible for you, Denver, or your readers to sin in ignorance on these issues any longer. You can accept them or reject them, but judge ye therein, because the scriptures I shared were from Christ Himself.

    I wish you and Carol the best.

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    • No France, you have taken a discussion and tried to make it be about what you want it to be about instead of what it is actually about.

      Like

    • France,

      My apologies. I have been away from the keyboard for the last seven or eight hours. Thanks for your comments. I’m not sure what your point was, but this one seems a little harsh and judgmental. I’ll go back and see if I can find something that requires my response. God bless

      Tim

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  32. I’m new to the whole realm of Denver Snuffer. In fact I only really learned about him and his writings in the past couple months. Even then I’ve only lightly skimmed his blog posts, that is until this week.

    In truth, I’ve been seeking, not as laboriously as I should, the truth to God’s church for some time. It is only in this past week that I read for the first time any of Denver’s Published works and so I started with PTHG. After reading that volume, I have never been so full of warmth and excitement since my mission. Since finishing it yesterday, I’ve also read the first 3 DS lectures and I’m planning on working through the rest as soon as possible.

    My mission was really important in that it opened up my eyes to the ‘idea’ that the church could possibly no longer be true. But it was also during my mission that I studied the scriptures the hardest and during it’s course, read all the standard works additional to the missionary materials(preach my gospel, etc.). Actually, a lot of the time, when I ‘should have’, as directed by my leaders, studied more in preach my gospel, I rather preferred to read the Book of Mormon and D&C. It was during this time that I really did gain a testimony that the scriptures were true. But I still had my doubts about how the church fit into it all.

    Since coming home from my mission roughly 1.5 years ago, I’ve slipped in and out of activity, and even then I was severely challenged when it came to any prayer, scripture study, or obligations to the church.

    That all changed when I started reading Denver Snuffer. All of a sudden, the scriptures no longer confuse me. I can suddenly see, as if scales were taken from my eyes that so much which I believed one way, can be seen another. More pieces have fallen together for me in the past week, than did during all the study I did with the institute/seminary/sunday-school manuals. Where before I muddled through the scriptures, all of a sudden, it feels like everything it witnessing to me over and over again about the reality of Jesus Christ.

    Because of this, though it is a short time, and even may be a religious zeal or fervor, I have: desired to start paying tithing again, started praying again, started reading the scriptures again, and have made a vow to never view pornography again(for which I am ashamed, but it is true), desired to seek an audience with Christ, etc.

    Jesus taught, “by their fruits, ye may know them.” and Nephi taught that it is the “spirit which teaches a man to pray” and an “evil spirit which teaches a man not to pray.”

    Denver did this all for whatever reason required of him by the Lord, but I truly believe the Lord was thinking of me(and all of his children) when he inspired Denver.

    I don’t know whether he be prophet or not yet, but I can bear a witness that much of what he has taught has “enlargened my soul” and it is a seed which has been planted in my bosom and which has told me that this is a “good seed.”

    Liked by 3 people

  33. I teach gospel doctrine. The lesson tomorrow includes the story of Jonah and the big fish. Jonah was reluctant to save Nineveh. Just as Tim and Bill are reluctant to try and save apostate Israel where we live. I am not sure it is time to surrender to those apostates who have no more of the spirit of the Lord than Satan. Why voluntarily surrender to apostate Israel just because they are surrounded by a ruling class with no priesthood but lots of deceived followers? We may end up being barfed up back to their presence to finish our work. Just a question. I know we are right and they are wrong. Why flee?

    Liked by 2 people

  34. Tim and community

    Which 7 women sustained Moroni, Mormon, ether, Ezekiel, Job, Adam, NOAH!!!

    This is a nonsensical doctrine. Denver new the scriptural reference from Isaiah was often used to promote the false doctrine of polygamy, so Denver came up with a slick new (albeit false) interpretation.

    Anyone who knows Gods priesthood knows that only God needs to sustain that priesthood and no other human being on earth.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Now Minority, you ought to know better than that. A prophet is called of God and needs no support from the people. If you listened to the lecture, it had nothing to do with that. Please comprehend the subject matter rather than bringing up questions of no relevance. It was a scripture from Isaiah and for the purpose of replecating what Alma did and priesthood ratification.

      Like

      • Sfort

        Ok change the word from sustain to “ratify”. How in the world does seven women grabbing a hold of one man relate to “ratifying” a man’s priesthood.
        Please forgive me if I have created a beef with you. It was not my intention. Some of your responses sound like you are pronouncing a truth and you don’t like when it is challenged. I am not contesting anything you believe nor would I disrespect it.

        Let me just state plainly that it does not take one man or woman to “ratify” another man’s priesthood. Surely we can agree on that. Does my priesthood need to be acknowledged by anyone besides the Almighty God? Can another man take it from me or you? Does my name need to be written in an earthly book? Does it need a vote of men?
        The only reason that would make sense for my priesthood to have to be “ratified” by men is if I am to be a member of some type of earthly organization. This act of taking names and making lists already labels people and creates a position of being “in” or “out” of some group. Then comes the members of one group pitting against the members of the other and then comes the contentions. (Not that they haven’t started already) 🙂
        We each are seeking God and truth and neither of us needs to join some group or be ratified by men in order to progress. Although I do not judge others for doing so to create a sense of community and like minded believers.
        The problem I have is when members of a group automatically feel pressure to believe each new doctrine that the group accepts as truth. In this case with denver. He is already pronounced women will not have the priesthood until the millennium, the LDS church has lost all priesthood authority, that God will curse anyone cursing Denver, that he was so special that upon his ex communication the keys of the kingdom were wrested.

        John the Baptist wrested the keys of the kingdom by progressing to a point spiritually that he obtained greater keys than the Jews could hold a candle to. He didn’t need to be ex communicated or be accepted or denied by any group of people.
        My spirituality and power in the priesthood are not dependent on anyone else and neither is yours.

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  35. One last question. Are we afraid they are going to throw us out of their mall?

    Liked by 1 person

  36. Sorry I missed most of the dialog here today. My apologies. After sending in my letter of resignation, I felt it important to finish up some work in regards to the Stake Financial Clerk’s duties, so I was away from the computer here for awhile.

    Tomorrow is the Sabbath – a day of rest. A day for man to rest from his labors and remember the Lord. I pray we may each do so with a desire in our hearts to find His sweet spirit to calm our troubled hearts. I know many are praying for me.

    I love you and thank you. God bless.

    Tim

    Liked by 1 person

    • Wow.

      Tim, I found you last March 2013, when the Lord first led me to Denver Snuffer’s books. I read them all within a couple of months and found you here, articulating my very own feelings. I have journeyed with you over these many months, one or two steps behind as I came to the same realizations. You have helped me not feel alone in the agonizing process of being changed by pure truth, and leaving old cherished beliefs behind. Leaving an identity that I thought I would go to my grave with, as a sixth generation Mormon with deep pioneer roots. I’ve known for years that all was not well in zion. That scripture and doctrine that I cherished was being diluted and replaced by a follow the brethren mentality. I say that I knew, but feel like Amulek who said that he knew, but would not know. This past year and a half has been wonderful and awful, as I’ve wrestled in mighty prayer, and because of Denver Snuffer’s message found renewed hope that “God is not dead, nor doth He sleep. The wrong shall fail, the right prevail…”

      I couldn’t have made this journey without your words, your goodness, and sound reasoning. I still would’ve come to this same place…leaving the LDS Church behind. But you have been a source of peace and comfort to me, as well as my husband.

      We both have received the Lord’s witness that Denver is delivering His message, and that at long last a prophet is speaking today. That the words spoken on this land have changed it, irrevocably.

      My husband was just called into the bishop’s office last Sunday, and he’s in “trouble” because he can’t “sustain” the PSR’s in the manner that the leaders want. We were in turmoil about it, but now this week everything has changed. We aren’t resigning at this point. We may if the Lord directs it. We’re just walking away….more like walking towards wherever the Lord may lead us. A new baptism. A new phase in these last days. And now that it appears that the times of the gentiles has come to a close, we are in for a wild ride ahead. Holding on tight to the Lord and taking the Holy Spirit to be our guide.

      We were both so glad to meet you in person at several occasions this past month. Of course, reading your words for so long, I feel as if I know you. You are a kindred spirit.

      My husband laughed with joy as he read this last post because he’s looking forward to a true Sabbath rest tomorrow, too. We love you and will pray for you too.

      Joy L.

      Like

  37. Ok I have got to ask this. Please tell me do people really believe there have not been prophets on the earth? Really?
    Alright here is a real quandary …. This very question will cause a new revelation to come forth in the future no doubt.
    Ok so denver claims that he has wrested the keys right out from under the LDS church? Which keys did he take? He has claimed elijah never came. He claims there was no real succession other than something equivalent to the aaronic priesthood… What keys could he have taken that he didn’t already have.
    I promise all of you readers that if you pray whether or not to know if all of the keys of the priesthood are inherent in the priesthood, God will tell you as sure as any of you live that once you receive the priesthood you also receive access to every key there ever was.
    The trick is that you must grow in glory and truth and grace to obtain the use of those keys. Please do not rely on any writing or other mans word on this. Pray until you get an answer from the Spirit. Denver does not have any more keys than anyone else with the priesthood, he may have gained the use of some more keys than most but that is it. He has no authority to bind you to some sort of action or creed than any other human being.

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    • Minority,

      Denver may have wrested the keys, but he is not using them nor giving them to anyone.

      wrest
      rest/Submit
      verb
      past tense: wrested; past participle: wrested
      forcibly pull (something) from a person’s grasp.
      “Leila tried to wrest her arm from his hold”
      synonyms: wrench, snatch, seize, grab, pry, pluck, tug, pull, jerk, dislodge, remove; informal yank
      “he wrested the broom from Angela’s grasp”

      take (something, especially power or control) from someone or something else after considerable effort or difficulty.
      “they wanted to allow people to wrest control of their lives from impersonal bureaucracies”

      He is not a prophet, but a messenger or preparer. That is all. Keys are a term current hierarchy uses to reiterate their power. They consider keys to only mean authority. Joseph Smith said that keys are knowledge. I think, since this doesn’t affect you unless you are moving in that direction, this could have nothing to do with your life. There isn’t any reason to “wrest” the new found knowledge obtained from those who seek it,

      Confused and or deceived people move to their own energy. If people are asking for help to sort out their mental holdings, then you could in your opinion be of some help to them. But if no one is asking, bantering back in forth from all parties seems superfluous. Whether you are a member of good standing with the church or not, or whether you seem to know more than any other, the case for saving people from destruction seems to be imaginary. They move to their own feelings of necessity.

      Tim is offering not a debate but a series of journeys effective for his life. Offerings of new found joy are more positive and uplifting than being as supposed right or wrong. I thank you however for your belief.

      Like

  38. Well said

    Like

  39. Transcript from the Mesa lecture:

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