What Manner of Men?


Note from Tim: This is a guest post from Log. I’m hopeful he will be willing to share more with us in the future. The post is inspired by this verse in 3 Ne 27:27.

NephiAndBrothersContention

We had ought to treat our fellow man as though they were Jesus Christ himself.

When the Son of Man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he shall sit upon the throne of his glory; and before him shall be gathered all nations; and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth sheep from the goats; the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. And he shall sit upon his throne, and the twelve apostles with him.

Then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in; naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee; or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in; or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the king shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these my brethren, ye did it not unto me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal. (JST Matthew 25:32-47)

This includes in our online interactions.

And Jesus said, O ye generation of vipers! how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man, out of the good treasure of the heart, bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure, bringeth forth evil things.

And again I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (JST Matt 12:29-32)

The Church of Christ is defined thusly.

Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. (D&C 10:67)

Teachers have the following duty.

The teacher’s duty is to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them; and see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking; and see that the church meet together often, and also see that all the members do their duty. They are, however, to warn, expound, exhort, and teach, and invite all to come unto Christ. (D&C 20:53-55, 59)

Evil speaking means “slander; defamation; calumny; censoriousness.”

Slander, as a noun, means “a false tale or report maliciously uttered. and tending to injure the reputation of another by lessening him in the esteem of his fellow citizens, by exposing him to impeachment and punishment, or by impairing his means of living; defamation; disgrace; reproach; disreputation; ill name.”

As a verb, slander means “to defame; to injure by maliciously uttering a false report respecting one; to tarnish or impair the reputation of one by false tales, maliciously told or propagated.”

Defamation means “the uttering of slanderous words with a view to injure another’s reputation; the malicious uttering of falsehood respecting another which tends to destroy or impair his good name, character or occupation; slander; calumny.”

Calumny means “slander; false accusation of a crime or offense, knowingly or maliciously made or reported, to the injury of another; false representation of facts reproachful to another, made by design, and with knowledge of its falsehood.”

Censuriousness means “disposition to blame and condemn; the habit of censuring or reproaching; the quality of being censorious.”

Censorious means “addicted to censure; apt to blame or condemn; severe in making remarks on others, or on their writings or manners – often implying ill-nature, illiberality, or uncharitableness; as, a censorious critic; implying or expressing censure; as, censorious remarks.”

Thus it is part of a teacher’s role to instruct the Church against these things.

It is also the role of high priests to teach the commandments of God unto his children.

And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people. And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption. (Alma 13:1-2)

In part to facilitate the teaching of the people, scripture has been given.

And all scripture given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (JST 2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Scripture is written words which come from God.

And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth— and this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost. And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants. (D&C 68:2-5)

One is only the servant of God inasmuch as he speaks the word of God and does his will.

And, again, beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing; but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits; for do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit; neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Verily I say unto you, it is not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, that shall enter unto the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. For the day soon cometh, that men shall come before me to judgment, to be judged according to their works. And many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name; and in thy name cast out devils; and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I say, Ye never knew me; depart from me ye that work iniquity. (JST Matt 7:24-33)

Malice, backbiting, evil-speaking, contention, and all other evils expressed in speech do not come from God.

And again, the Lord God hath commanded that men should not murder; that they should not lie; that they should not steal; that they should not take the name of the Lord their God in vain; that they should not envy; that they should not have malice; that they should not contend one with another; that they should not commit whoredoms; and that they should do none of these things; for whoso doeth them shall perish.

For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. (2 Nephi 26:32-33)

Such things come from the devil.

There shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been. For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away. (3 Nephi 11:28-30)

Contention has, as its essential meaning, “contest” or “dispute.”

Malice essentially means “enmity,” which itself is a descriptor of the “me vs. you” feeling / mentality.

False prophets are those who falsely profess to have or speak by the Spirit of God. They have malice towards others, and the fruit thereof may be discerned because they dispute and contend, seeking to establish their positions against others, in particular about matters of doctrine, and quite often seek to make their opponents seem worthy of censure.

The word “prophet” means “spokesman.” Prophets speak the word of God by the power of the Spirit (D&C 68:2-5, referred to above). Where the Spirit of God is silent, so also is the prophet, if he is acting as such.

We have been counseled thusly: “Trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments.” (Mosiah 23:14)

The Spirit of God will establish the word of God in the honest hearer’s heart.

Let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face. Now, when a man reasoneth he is understood of man, because he reasoneth as a man; even so will I, the Lord, reason with you that you may understand.

Wherefore, I the Lord ask you this question—unto what were ye ordained? To preach my gospel by the Spirit, even the Comforter which was sent forth to teach the truth.

And then received ye spirits which ye could not understand, and received them to be of God; and in this are ye justified? Behold ye shall answer this question yourselves; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto you; he that is weak among you hereafter shall be made strong.

Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? And if it be by some other way it is not of God.

And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? If it be some other way it is not of God. Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?

Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together. And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness. That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day. (D&C 50:11-24)

If you hear a man speak by the power of the Spirit and receive not his words, it is because you are not of God.

He that is of God receiveth God’s words; ye therefore receive them not, because ye are not of God. (JST John 8:47)

Judgement

The same that judgeth rashly shall be judged rashly again; for according to his works shall his wages be; therefore, he that smiteth shall be smitten again, of the Lord. Behold what the scripture says—man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay. (Mormon 8:19-20)

Christ commanded us thusly.

Judge not according to your traditions, but judge righteous judgment. (JST John 7:24)

Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people. Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment. For with what judgment ye shall judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (JST Matt 7:1-3)

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged; condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned; forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. (JST Luke 6:37)

And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye. (3 Nephi 14:1-5)

Just judges do not pretend to read the hearts or minds of others. A just judge judges according to the light of Christ and the revelations of God, which is a major theme of Moroni 7. A just judge will withhold judgement until God makes the truth known unto him.

And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come; and whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning. (D&C 93:24-25)

Unjust judges make the unwarranted leap from outward appearances to inward intent. Thus may they be discerned – they accuse. Any standard of judgement which would condemn God, Christ, or their servants when acting as such is an unjust judgement, or, in other words, an accusation.

The judgements of God is that the truth about you is made known. This is either through voluntarily confessing, or through involuntary revelation at a most inopportune time. Those who voluntarily confess, forsake, and forgive shall find mercy.

Justice

The justice of God is that you go with that society with whom you are most comfortable – whose behavior you mirror. If you are an accuser, you shall go with the accusers. If you obey the Celestial Law, you go with that society.

The Celestial Law is this: “As ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.” All other precepts are but specific examples of how to keep this law.

Zion is built upon this law.

Verily I say unto you who have assembled yourselves together that you may learn my will concerning the redemption of mine afflicted people—behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.

But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them; and are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom; and Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself. And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer. (D&C 105:1-6)

There are many who style themselves disciples of Christ but keep not the law. These, who suppose they shall inherit Zion, shall find themselves disappointed by and by.

Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the voice of him who dwells on high, and whose eyes are upon all men; yea, verily I say: Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together. For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated. And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed. And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days. And they shall go forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.

Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth. Wherefore, fear and tremble, O ye people, for what I the Lord have decreed in them shall be fulfilled. And verily I say unto you, that they who go forth, bearing these tidings unto the inhabitants of the earth, to them is power given to seal both on earth and in heaven, the unbelieving and rebellious; yea, verily, to seal them up unto the day when the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the wicked without measure—unto the day when the Lord shall come to recompense unto every man according to his work, and measure to every man according to the measure which he has measured to his fellow man.

Wherefore the voice of the Lord is unto the ends of the earth, that all that will hear may hear: prepare ye, prepare ye for that which is to come, for the Lord is nigh; and the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth. And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people; for they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; they seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall. (D&C 1:1-16)

For in that day, before the Son of man shall come, he shall send forth his angels and messengers of heaven. And they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them out among the wicked; and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. For the world shall be burned with fire. (JST Matt 13:42-44)

“The kingdom of Zion is in very deed the kingdom of our God and his Christ.” (D&C 105:32)

The entry requirement for Zion is simple: “And Enoch beheld angels descending out of heaven, bearing testimony of the Father and Son; and the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion.” (Moses 7:27)

This is the meaning of the wedding garment.

And Jesus answered the people again, and spake unto them in parables, and said, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, who made a marriage for his son. And when the marriage was ready, he sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding; and they would not come.

Again he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them that are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my oxen, and my fatlings have been killed, and my dinner is ready, and all things are prepared; therefore come unto the marriage. But they made light of the servants, and went their ways; one to his farm, another to his merchandise; and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

But when the king heard that his servants were dead, he was wroth; and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then said he to his servants, The wedding is ready; but they who were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all, as many as they found, both bad and good; and the wedding was furnished with guests. But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man who had not a wedding garment. And he said unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither, not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Then said the king unto his servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take and cast him away into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few chosen; wherefore all do not have on the wedding garment. (JST Matt 22:1-14)

What makes you think you will be welcome in Zion? Even if you got in, what makes you think you will survive the culling, wherein the angels shall sever the wicked from the just, casting out those who do not have the Spirit?

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels; but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world. And the world is the children of the wicked. The angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them out into the world to be burned. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (JST Matt 13:48-51)

“The Spirit of the Lord doth not dwell in unholy temples.” (Helaman 4:24)

Therefore, Repent.

“[Christ] hath commanded his people that they should persuade all men to repentance.” (2 Nephi 26:27)

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. (2 Nephi 25:29)

Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend. And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them, and humble yourselves before God; and ask in sincerity of heart that he would forgive you; and now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them. (Mosiah 4:9-10)

And it came to pass that when Aaron saw that the king would believe his words, he began from the creation of Adam, reading the scriptures unto the king—how God created man after his own image, and that God gave him commandments, and that because of transgression, man had fallen. And Aaron did expound unto him the scriptures from the creation of Adam, laying the fall of man before him, and their carnal state and also the plan of redemption, which was prepared from the foundation of the world, through Christ, for all whosoever would believe on his name. And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

And it came to pass that after Aaron had expounded these things unto him, the king said: What shall I do that I may have this eternal life of which thou hast spoken? Yea, what shall I do that I may be born of God, having this wicked spirit rooted out of my breast, and receive his Spirit, that I may be filled with joy, that I may not be cast off at the last day? Behold, said he, I will give up all that I possess, yea, I will forsake my kingdom, that I may receive this great joy.

But Aaron said unto him: If thou desirest this thing, if thou wilt bow down before God, yea, if thou wilt repent of all thy sins, and will bow down before God, and call on his name in faith, believing that ye shall receive, then shalt thou receive the hope which thou desirest.

And it came to pass that when Aaron had said these words, the king did bow down before the Lord, upon his knees; yea, even he did prostrate himself upon the earth, and cried mightily, saying: O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day. And now when the king had said these words, he was struck as if he were dead….

[Aaron] put forth his hand and raised the king from the earth, and said unto him: Stand. And he stood upon his feet, receiving his strength…. And the king stood forth, and began to minister unto them. And he did minister unto them, insomuch that his whole household were converted unto the Lord. (Alma 22:12-23)

Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine. And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me. And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost. And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one. And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things. And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth. (3 Nephi 11:31-41)

Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. (Moroni 10:32-33)

79 Responses

  1. I love being taught and instructed through scripture. This is a great class room you have here. Thanks

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Thank you Tim

    Very thought provoking and I oft need to repent for harshness and speaking and writing in a manner that is not becoming of a man of God.
    It is interesting to ponder on when rebukes are warranted or not. We will no doubt see many rebukes from God and His servants in the future but if there is any doubt soft spoken kindness is the better way. Thank you for the timely reminder. God bless

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Thank you. This was a timely message for those of us struggling with the messages we just heard in general conference. I’m going to quote an earlier comment from Log that sums this truth up nicely: “Obey the voice which tells you to do good through self-sacrifice. Be courageous in following it. Pray always for the Holy Ghost. Deny the voice which tells you that you’re right and they’re wrong and you need to correct them.”

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Thank you, Log, for the inspired post and thank you, Tim, for posting. it.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. For those who may be wondering if I’ve changed my style: No, this post is from Log. I am enjoying and pondering the instruction contained in the post just as you are. Thanks to Log for being willing to share.

    Like

    • Tim, what is your connection to Log? Last I checked, Log was a contentions beast. LOL. Perhaps I am in error. What gives?

      Liked by 1 person

      • I count Log as a dear friend, one who has shown his friendship by driving hundreds of miles to visit with me, not once, but several times. He has spent hours in my home, discussing the gospel with me.

        Actually, it was more like I would bring up a point and he would turn to the scriptures for the answer. Contention? I sensed none. Only a bit of frustration that I didn’t get some of the points he was trying to make. Patience. That’s what I felt, and appreciation.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Certainly I have misjudged. Heaven knows I have been on the receiving end of misjudgment many times. My apologies. Time for me to give Log a fair shake.

          Like

      • Although the natural log is an enemy to exponentiation, log is not a contentious beast. People get offended because they may perceive contention in him, but there is little contention in him.

        Like

  6. Well if it was log that wrote it I take my comment back!

    JK. Well written LOG.

    I agree all judgement must be left to The Lord unless directly given us by revelation. It would be much different in testimony meetings if people ONLY testified of truths they had received by revelation. Begs the question how often people speak the Lords name in vain when they close in the name of the Savior when they have not received revelation on the subject they spoke on

    Liked by 1 person

  7. Thank you Log–I’ve missed you.

    I ask your forgiveness for the wrongs I’ve done you in the past.

    You’ve often told me to pray until I got an answer, like Enos, and I think I see an oportunity to do that.

    I found out today that my dad is entittled to 21 days of in-patient respite care at a Veteran’s Affairs Facility, and that would give me plenty of time to actually pray all day, without having to interupt my prayers to clean him, feed him, and give him his pills (and take him to his appointments.

    The only catch is that there is a waiting list, and it will be awhile before I can actually take advantage of this oportunity, but I did talk to a social worker about it today.

    Michael Gerard Burke

    Like

  8. The reason I can tolerate Tim’s blog is because Tim neither accuses nor contends. He does not make the unwarranted leap from outward appearances to inward motivations and thereby become an accuser.

    With regards to my being a contentious beast, I suppose it necessarily would be pointless to protest the purity of my motives. I recall that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael had the same problem with Nephi.

    1 Nephi 16:1-4
    1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.

    2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.

    3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.

    4 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.

    The problem was that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael had gotten Nephi completely wrong, judging him after the wickedness of their own hearts.

    2 Nephi 1:26
    26 And ye have murmured because he hath been plain unto you. Ye say that he hath used sharpness; ye say that he hath been angry with you; but behold, his sharpness was the sharpness of the power of the word of God, which was in him; and that which ye call anger was the truth, according to that which is in God, which he could not restrain, manifesting boldly concerning your iniquities.

    How did they make that error? They had never been born of God, and were themselves filled with malice, pride, and contention, and could not imagine that anyone might not have that same enmity which filled their breasts, neither could they imagine that someone might not be seeking for power and control to benefit themselves.

    1 Nephi 16:38
    38 Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that angels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman stir up their hearts to anger.

    That was what would have been in Laman’s heart were he to do or say what Nephi said. Laman was an accuser.

    I used to participate in LDSFreedomForum. I had imagined that people on such a forum were looking to improve themselves, and that someone somewhere would receive correction or reproof by reference to the word of God. I discovered I was mistaken. By simply quoting scripture whenever I saw certain errors committed, I became a rock of offense among both the Snufferites and the Brethrenites. I was accused of narcissism, psychopathy, judgmentality, hypocrisy, and contention – because I “always had to be right,” you see – it never occurred to them that when one only takes public positions wherein one is demonstrably in alignment with the word of God, one must be “right” perforce. I strictly abode this wise counsel, probably penned by Brigham Young. (Incidentally, I am frequently asked why I rely so heavily upon the scriptures instead of blowing it out my ass like most everyone else and rendering “my” positions vulnerable to cheap rebuttals, like “sez who.” This is part of the reason why.)

    Be careful that you teach not for the word of God the commandments of men, nor the doctrines of men, nor the ordinances of men, inasmuch as you are God’s messengers. Study the word of God, and preach it and not your opinions, for no man’s opinion is worth a straw. Advance no principle but what you can prove, for one scriptural proof is worth ten thousand opinions. We would moreover say, abide by that revelation which says ‘Preach nothing but repentance to this generation,’ and leave the further mysteries of the kingdom till God shall tell you to preach them, which is not now.

    They cried unto their judges to cast me out from the “sensitive” areas like their so-called “Approaching the Heavenly Gift” forum. Their chief judge executed the will of the people and washed his hands of the matter, and I departed their land altogether.

    I actually find that stuff humorous. I learned a few lessons from that, and more recently at Rock’s blog.

    Those who have not been born of God cannot understand what it is like. We who have been born of God and have been visited and tasted of the goodness of Christ don’t feel the same way about things, and we therefore don’t react the same way to negative stimuli (if we are faithful). When Abinadi was being roasted, he felt the flames, but as he was filled with perfect love and light, he reacted differently. When Christ was nailed to the cross, he frankly forgave the soldiers. When Stephen was getting stoned, he forgave his murderers. These are the genuine reactions of those who have the Spirit of God. There is no malice, no enmity, no hatred, but love and care, even if there is hurt at times from being rejected by those from whom we had hoped for acceptance.

    So to those who haven’t been born of God and have imbibed in this world’s sins, they really cannot imagine that someone might not intend to elevate themselves over them. They really can’t picture how it could be that someone might not intend any harm towards them at all, but be trying to help them. They don’t know anything different, and it’s been too long since they were little children for them to remember what it was like to be innocent. Therefore they believe any reproof can only be a hypocritical attack, and react accordingly.

    I cannot blame them. I only wish I knew what more I could do to help them. I don’t think it’s really possible on the internet, however, since everyone’s on permanent “fight or flight” mode. All I can do is publish truth and hope that the honest at heart hear it for what it is. If people are genuinely interested in qualifying for Zion, they had ought not continue self-righteously offending as they have heretofore been, but had ought bury their weapons of war for peace, as the Anti-Nephi-Lehis.

    Oh, if only people understood the example of the Anti-Nephi-Lehis – they had learned the final lesson and demonstrated their understanding by laying down their lives for the sake of their enemies. They fully understood the Golden Rule. Being converted unto the Lord and filled with perfect love, they had no fear of death.

    Alma 24:18-19
    18 And this they did, it being in their view a testimony to God, and also to men, that they never would use weapons again for the shedding of man’s blood; and this they did, vouching and covenanting with God, that rather than shed the blood of their brethren they would give up their own lives; and rather than take away from a brother they would give unto him; and rather than spend their days in idleness they would labor abundantly with their hands.

    19 And thus we see that, when these Lamanites were brought to believe and to know the truth, they were firm, and would suffer even unto death rather than commit sin; and thus we see that they buried their weapons of peace, or they buried the weapons of war, for peace.

    I thank Tim for giving me the space to publish this.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thank you for citing the Nephi vs Laman & Lemuel dilemma. It helps me better understand where you are coming from.

      Nephi, a righteous man in all the justification from God and under direction of the spirit, killed a helpless man, cut off his head, stole his clothing, sword and keys, abducted under threat of execution his servant, stole sacred scripture. With all these implements of kingship Nephi reigned in righteousness a king over the people all the rest of his days. Nephi was completely justified under the hand of God in these actions. Nephi’s posterity were eventually destroyed and wiped from the face of the earth. Not Laman’s or Lemuel’s.

      Sorry for projecting. Thanks for your insights.

      Like

      • Nephi’s posterity mixed with Laman and Lemuel’s over the several generations…they were not completely destroyed…

        Like

        • Absolutely correct, they did mix. As a people, as a nation, the Nephites were destroyed and later wiped from the face of the earth.

          Like

  9. Log

    When you were born of God was this a specific moment when you received the baptism of fire? Do you remember where you were and under what circumstances? Or was this a slow process type of being born again?

    Like

    • It was for me a specific moment, but one cannot legitimately generalize from anecdotal evidence. I am unable to say that it is never an extended process for anyone.

      And this is what I did to obtain it: “Obey the voice which tells you to do good through self-sacrifice. Be courageous in following it. Pray always for the Holy Ghost. Deny the voice which tells you that you’re right and they’re wrong and you need to correct them.”

      I would also add this: “If ye shall come unto me, or shall desire to come unto me, or if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee, leave thou thy gift before the altar, and go thy way unto thy brother, and first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.”

      Like

  10. That is interesting. Thank you for sharing. I believe it usually does happen in an instant.

    The same spirit that entered you the day you were born again, do you feel that every day now? The same power and burning? Or consistently at least?

    Like

    • That is a question best asked of God. My answer would, while strictly and literally true, be misleading, and I therefore do not answer it.

      Like

  11. I understand it is personal and perhaps sacred. Do you believe there is anyone on this earth that feels the Holy Ghost all day every day?

    Like

    • Yes.

      Liked by 1 person

  12. I would love to hear any others thoughts on this!

    Those of you who have been born of God and baptised by fire, do you feel the fire all day every day?!

    I am a wretched person. I only feel the Holy Ghost from time to time when I am admitting my nothingness and pleading for grace and mercy or I am studying and learn a new truth despite my weakness. If there truly is a man or woman that has the flow of revelation all day every day I would just be in awe. That person would be a modern day moses or even greater perhaps. Maybe a translated being… Crazy. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think I understand you a little bit better LOG. I pray that we won’t have contention any more.

    Like

    • It can be you.

      2 O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.

      Do not worry about your “worthiness” or any other fear. Ask for what you want.

      Mormon 9:28
      28 Be wise in the days of your probation; strip yourselves of all uncleanness; ask not, that ye may consume it on your lusts, but ask with a firmness unshaken, that ye will yield to no temptation, but that ye will serve the true and living God.

      8 Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given;

      9 For verily I say unto you, they are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments, and him that seeketh so to do; that all may be benefited that seek or that ask of me, that ask and not for a sign that they may consume it upon their lusts.

      10 And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in your minds what those gifts are, that are given unto the church.

      11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.

      12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Minorityofone
      First off, we’re all sinners when we compare ourselves to god. We get hung up when we compare ourselves to man.
      Having said that, once clear of offenses that cloud your heart and mind, and living a life that’s direction is acceptable before God, the key is asking for the companionship of the Holy Ghost. Then the hard part, for me anyway is continuing to recognize it! As our lives become more and more correct before God we sometimes do that human thing and get accustomed to its presence and take it for granted and therefore question its presence though it has been with you all the while guiding your daily life.
      And I have have had many occasions where the spirit is with me but silent, living you to make some choices on your own.

      Like

  13. John

    Thanks for your comment. Ok maybe I am silly and the only one that thinks this way. I pray to God Almighty someone might understand this.

    My belief is that the light of Christ is what remains with people always. (Or that it can). It leads us to walk in meekness unto God and we walk with peace and assurance. It is light. When people are in church meetings and it was a good meeting people will say things like “the spirit was strong in that meeting”. I believe that they are talking about the light of Christ. It expands our spirits and enlightens us.
    The Holy Ghost makes the light of Christ feel like a dim spark comparatively. The Holy Ghost is a literal power sweeping through the body and filling with a sure spiritual knowledge. It flows either from the feet up or from the head down often and it is like literal electricity or fire igniting every cell in the body.
    No one on earth walks with this power right now all day every day. I was in a room when a man was baptized by fire and everyone in the room was filled with power. We all were filled with the spirit of prophecy.
    If someone walked with this power (like Jesus who had a fulness and the Spirit without measure) they would be drawing masses of people. I do know that this will happen, but hasn’t yet. I am so saddened at the state of apostasy and the pride of the world who claim to know so much when we have been given so little.
    The idea of the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost from the time of ones confirmation has damned the progress of so many because they have no idea there is more than the peace of the light of Christ. No one has the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost right now in mortality because they would be receiving constant revelation.
    That is my two cents on the subject.

    Like

    • Minorityofone
      I understand what you’re saying, the apostasy is real, but keep in mind the manifestations of the spirit/HG you are referring to is NOT what having the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost is. The Holy Ghost does more than just testify, which is what is felt in the baptism of fire and in other situations such as in missionary work.
      The Holy Ghost is the purveyor of knowledge NOT goose bumps. It can and IS felt as a constant companion in this day. That does not mean they who enjoy that are speaking in tongues and having open visions 24/7. It brings comfort and knowledge. This I can testify of.
      My two cents.
      Your brother in Christ

      Like

  14. Here’s the thing – the whole point of the Gospel is to make us like unto Christ! And Christ is even as the Father! It is only unbelief which prevents people from rising up to claim their birthright. Just ask!

    Do you see a lack of prophets? Then pay the price in prayer, study, fasting, and faith to become one! Ask of God, and ye shall receive! Define yourself as a servant of God above any of the other roles you play in your life. Eventually you will discover that to be a servant of God is simply to be a servant to all.

    Do you wish for the ministration of angels? Then go and feed the homeless and give to every bum who asks! Pick up hitchhikers and give travelers a place to stay in your home.

    Go about doing good and pray always and see what happens. Do exactly and literally what Christ taught and he will exactly and literally bless according to his promises.

    But oh my word do not accuse others.

    Don’t bother looking to others for light.

    Don’t pester others for answers.

    Don’t seek for approval from men.

    Don’t listen to anyone who puts limitations on what you can or cannot seek and obtain from God. All things are possible to them that believe.

    You only know what you have experienced, and what you hear from God himself – nothing else can be trusted.

    Liked by 2 people

    • I can say I have blessed with many spiritual manifestations in my life. But to also respond to your concerns about the apostasy and current state of affairs, I have experience in the last few months, weeks and even days some of the most wonderful one can enjoy in this life. So I agree with Log, all things are possible, even today!

      Like

    • All I care to say at this point in this thread is that I have greatly benefited from your input, Log (in the past and here as well). Thank you for visiting my home. You have elevated those who have been the beneficiaries of your ministry to a higher plane of thinking and helped us renew our commitment and focus to take upon ourselves the name of Christ (to strive to be like Him in every way and to come before the Father in His name!).

      You have helped restore the footing of those whose feet have slipped from the path (or who maybe didn’t even realize their feet were slipping!).

      Thank you for sharing your gifts, my friend.

      Like

  15. Log

    I am not accusing anyone of anything. I do not look to anyone for truth or light except God. You do not know what I have experienced or have not experienced. Nor do I you. That is ok. You seem to get agitated in a hurry when I am not attacking or accusing you of anything.

    John- Joseph Smith taught that the Holy Ghost can not be with anyone unless they are receiving revelation. That it feels like pure intelligence flowing into you. He said that the Holy Ghost is a revelator and therefore EVERY time you have the Holy Ghost you are receiving revelation.
    Revelation is not something we get without knowing it. I happen to agree with Joseph Smith on this one.
    Anyway at least I get what most people are saying when they say a “constant companionship”. I just have the opinion that that is the light of Christ and not the Holy Ghost. I think we may just define things differently, but that is ok we all are seeking to do Gods will and learn of God. Thanks for your input.

    Like

    • Minorityofone
      I also agree with you and Joseph, maybe its our definition of revelation, and what would count as having a revelation whenever you have the Holy Ghost?
      Regarding the light of Christ, there is truth in what you say, but there is also more.
      I have to go.
      Your brother in Christ!

      Like

  16. MoO,

    Not everything I say is necessarily aimed at you; there are others in the world who may be profited.

    And I would be very careful when attempting to judge another’s knowledge base.

    While attempting to evaluate the claims of another, I had to bear in mind that wherever I disagreed with this other person, it was entirely possible that they were right and I was wrong. Part of judging justly is also laying aside one’s ego.

    Like

    • I agree and I take your comments seriously and ponder upon them as well as anyone else’s and I love you and anyone who gives me correction

      “Rebuke a wise man and he will love you, rebuke not the scorned lest he hate you”

      Like

  17. Just FYI to minorityofone: Each of us is unique, and therefore our experiences are all going to be unique. As a young mother with five small children I despaired of having the time and ability to focus on the “to do” list for obtaining a baptism of fire, as I understood it. I cried to The Lord that although my heart was willing to expend the time and effort in deep study to obtain a Baptism of Fire and the Holy Ghost, I needed to devote my time to my children. Then one day when I had a load of laundry going, dinner on the stove, little kids in the bathtub, and was leaning exhausted against the towel rack in the bathroom I understood that these things come in The Lord’s Time and in the Lord’s Way, and in the moments when we are giving loving sacrifice and service. The women I have known who have experienced something similar have likewise experienced this in the midst of service to children. I appreciated Tim’s post of Log’s log, I needed a refresher. Thank you.

    Like

    • Lynne, it looks like your comment may have left out part of what you were going to express. Did you mean that you experienced a baptism of fire “event” that day when you were in the middle of laundry, cooking, bathing kids, etc.? Or just that you had the sudden understanding come about it being more gradual, on the Lord’s time, and otherwise somehow while serving children?

      Like

  18. Lynne

    Thanks! That is so beautiful! Alma the younger, Saul, King Lamoni, hundreds of others in scripture did nothing except turn to look to Christ in faith, like people who were bit by serpents (we are all bit by the serpent with sin) looked to the serpent on the staff held up by Moses in order to receive the baptism of fire.
    The doctrine that we need “to do” anything in order to receive the baptism of fire other than exercise faith in Christ is a false doctrine. Many people despair because they think their works are not good enough to receive the Holy Ghost. Unfortunately the LDS church advocates this line of thought whether directly or indirectly.
    The truth is that NOBODYS works will ever be good enough to receive the Holy Ghost (save Jesus). If someone thinks obedience to the law is what brings the spirit they will never receive it. The Spirit comes despite our disobedience to the law when we first turn our hearts to Christ in faith.
    The truth is that each of us are already tormented with the pains of hell just like alma the younger when he was paralyzed for three days. What work could he do? What good could he do to save him? Obviously nothing except turn his heart to Jesus and cry our for help. Such is the case with us all.
    Nephi cried out to the Savior to “redeem his soul from hell”. When was his soul in hell? This was after he had already performed miracles and obviously enjoyed the Spirit to a great degree.
    If anyone teaches you that works bring the Spirit do not believe it for a second. The Spirit brings the works of God and not the other way around. If someone says they were born again because of obedience they better mean that it was obedience to the principle of faith in Jesus Christ and nothing else.
    There is a reason the scriptures teach repeatedly to “preach nothing but Faith and repentence” in that order. True faith ALWAYS brings repentence. Repentence can happen instantaneously. In it’s true form in Greek and Hebrew it simply means to turn away from or to change your mind.
    We have no power to change ourselves. The atonement allows the Holy Ghost to change us! Then obedience is not a burden but a delight and service becomes a natural expression of our love (which is really the love of God in us).
    Take heart. Believe in Jesus Christ and His mighty power to change you if you turn to Him in faith! You do not need to be a member of a particular religion, it is not based on fulfilling your calling or doing home teaching, it is based on your faith and reliance upon the merits of Christ!

    Like

    • Here’s where I grow confused. I have not ever seen anyone say the baptism of fire requires works.

      Who, then, preaches this doctrine you find so objectionable? Why do you keep bringing it up?

      Like

      • Log

        I don’t think you read Lynne’s comment. She mentioned a “checklist” of things to do that are necessary to be baptized by fire. My response was geared towards that and not anything else.
        Again I apologize I must have pushed a button or two of yours in the past and I really felt we were on good terms and had let it go. Nothing I say is geared toward you unless I wrote specifically to you.

        Like

        • Well, I ask because you have actually referred to this BEFORE she made her post.

          Here is one example, apparently geared towards me. I have no doubt that were I to do more research, I would find other comments like it.

          Since you keep bringing it up, I am curious then whence this teaching comes – especially since, unless I am mistaken, in the LDS Church, it is taught that one has been baptized by fire merely by being confirmed a member, whether one notices anything or not.

          So, why do you keep bringing it up? Who teaches this doctrine that you find so objectionable?

          Like

        • You don’t have to respond – but passive-aggressivity does not go unnoticed, and I appreciate it for what it is. I saw plenty of it on LDSFF, where people would criticize indirectly so as to avoid the charge of contention.

          Like

    • There is a lot of truth in your statement, MoO. I do not believe you and Log are speaking at cross-purposes.

      Like

  19. Excuse me she said “to do” list.

    Like

  20. The comment I made to Tyson was geared towards you?

    LOG

    I hope you don’t mind this correction and do not perceive it as contentious but the LDS church (at least in its purity) does not preach that people are baptized by fire at their baptism. This is an erroneous doctrine of the devil that has crept into the church and confused many people.
    The church used to teach plainly that during confirmation when it is said to “receive the Holy Ghost” that it is merely a commission to go out and exercise faith until you receive the Holy Ghost.
    For one very good example of this you can look to lorenzo snow and his baptism of fire. Also look to the talk by Truman G Madsen where he reefers to those who are “stillborn” into the church.
    It used to be common in the church after one was baptized that they would see friends weeks later who would ask them “have you received the Holy Ghost?”. Or “have you been baptized by fire?”.
    This idea that people receive the Holy Ghost when they are confirmed a member as a constant companion has crept in and now it is taught so commonly that people have added this philosophy of men to their beliefs.

    Like

    • MoO,

      What is the difference between this:

      “[T]he LDS church (at least in its purity) does not preach that people are baptized by fire at their baptism. This is an erroneous doctrine of the devil that has crept into the church and confused many people…and now it is taught so commonly that people have added this philosophy of men to their beliefs.”

      and this:

      “[I]n the LDS Church, it is taught that one has been baptized by fire merely by being confirmed a member, whether one notices anything or not.”

      And who teaches the doctrine you keep denouncing?

      Like

      • LOG

        The two quotes are complete opposites. They are as different as black and white.

        One says the LDS church teaches baptism of fire at confirmation and one says it doesn’t.

        Are we reading the same quotes?

        Like

        • Yes, we are. They seem to me to say the same thing: the teaching is had in the Church that one is baptized by fire at confirmation. The qualification you make, “The LDS Church (at least in its purity) does not preach that…,” does not make a difference to the outcome – that this “doctrine… has crept into the church… and now it is taught … commonly….”

          So I cannot see any meaningful distinction between what you said and what I said. The “No True Scotsman” fallacy remains, in the end, a fallacy.

          I am also missing an answer to the other question which I have asked several times now – who teaches that works are necessary to be baptized by fire? If nobody, why bring it up so much?

          Like

  21. LOG

    How could I possibly be criticizing you indirectly when I am speaking against a doctrine you claim to have never taught?
    Why would it even come into your mind when you have never taught it?
    I made a comment to someone and then you demanded an explanation of me and got all bent out of shape.
    Is it possible that you read into things and heard footsteps when no one was pursuing?

    Like

    • How could you? By bringing it up consistently in discussions I am involved with.

      Why does it occur you might be aiming it at me? Because it is brought up consistently in discussions I am involved with.

      I am asking for an explanation – if you don’t want to give one, that’s cool. I’m hoping I’m wrong about you being passively-aggressively criticizing me. But thus far you have not given another explanation for your frequent denouncing of the idea, nowhere ever sourced, that one must have works to be baptized by fire.

      Is it possible I am paranoid or hypocritical and you’re not criticizing me in a passive-aggressive manner? Sure, anything’s possible. That’s why I keep asking you who you are talking about and where they have said what you keep denouncing.

      I’m asking because I don’t wish to accuse, and I want to understand – if I have offended you by seeming to teach something you feel strongly enough about to denounce constantly, then I need to examine myself. If, however, I haven’t, and nobody else has, then I would like to know why you keep bringing it up.

      Like

  22. LOG

    When you said “the LDS church teaches…”, that, to me implies very clearly that you were saying it is a matter of orthodoxy in the LDS church. I think anyone would interpret it that way.
    Then I said simply that the statement was not true and explained why. Perhaps we should disengage in this because I feel that you are being contentious and disputing what I am saying and it all started from a comment that had nothing to do with you. Please forgive me for anything I have done to offend you. I am seeking for edification rather than disputation.

    Like

    • MoO,

      I can actually bring up several leaders in the Church who have taught pretty much exactly that. I have had discussions myself with leaders in which that has been affirmed.

      Indeed, one may see such here.

      Is it a matter of orthodoxy? Really, the LDS Church has one orthodox doctrine, dissent from which it will not brook, and I won’t mention it here.

      If you feel my asking you to source your contention that someone, somewhere, ever taught that the baptism by fire requires works is contentious, then by all means, I will stop asking you.

      However, if that is the case, I would appreciate it if you stopped bringing it up and / or denouncing it. It gives the impression that you are passively-aggressively criticizing someone.

      Like

  23. I already explained that I was responding to Lynne’s comment and I explained why. In the other comment it was a response to Tyson and that is why it was addressed as such.

    If I seem to continually bring it up, it is always in response to something and it is ALWAYS directed to the person that I address it to.

    If you feel that in the comments you pointed out that I taught something false, I am happy to discuss it, if I teach the truth, then I would hope that you would find joy in the comment instead of whatever prompted you to jump all over me. I find it curious.

    Like

    • If I were to constantly denounce the idea that the earth were flat, one would have to suspect someone somewhere at some point would have to have said the earth was flat. In fact, one would expect that, to be relevant in my comments on the lack of flatness of the earth, someone involved in a discussion with me would have said that the earth was flat. Otherwise, reasonable observers would wonder why I kept bringing up the idea that the earth isn’t flat. “Who ever said it was flat?” they would wonder.

      Likewise, I’m not sure people would rejoice in my teaching the earth wasn’t flat. I don’t know that I could reasonably hope anyone could find joy in it.

      Like

  24. I am sorry to keep bringing up Lynne’s comment, but I already pointed out that she wrote about a “to do” list of things that must be done in order to be baptized by fire. I found it worthy of a response and frankly don’t think I need to apologize if I continue to share marvelous truths about faith and the power of the atonement and how one obtains the Spirit.
    I don’t know why anyone would be upset about it. I do not think you are the type of person that I would throw scriptures at like 1 Nephi 16:2 because I think you are getting upset for some other reason. Anyway let’s drop this and allow people to discuss things in edification.

    Like

    • I don’t know anyone IS upset about it. I’m simply curious as to why any suggestion of the necessity of works provokes denouncements.

      If you are disinclined to answer, then well and good – just do me a favor, if you will, and don’t denounce the necessity of works.

      JST James 2
      14 What profit is it, my brethren, for a man to say he hath faith, and hath not works? can faith save him?

      15 Yea, a man may say, I will show thee I have faith without works; but I say, Show me thy faith without works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

      16 For if a brother or sister be naked and destitute, and one of you say, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled; notwithstanding he give not those things which are needful to the body; what profit is your faith unto such?

      17 Even so faith, if it have not works is dead, being alone.

      18 Therefore wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead and cannot save you?

      19 Thou believest there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble; thou hast made thyself like unto them, not being justified.

      20 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

      21 Seest thou how works wrought with his faith, and by works was faith made perfect?

      And I would also note that if a man desires to receive the Spirit and has not sufficient faith to pull an Enos, he cannot go far wrong in trying to do the works the Savior commands whilst praying always for the Spirit.

      JST Luke 6
      46 And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

      47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like.

      48 He is like a man who built a house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock, and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it; for it was founded upon a rock.

      49 But he who heareth and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built a house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

      Therefore, dissuade none from well-doing.

      Like

  25. Ok wait, are you trying to start an argument about works now?

    Did you not read my comment and plenty previously where I have said multiple times that faith and the Spirit ALWAYS bring works?

    I am beginning to think that you like to seek out disputations. What is the deal? I complimented your article twice and you have very clearly accused me multiple times of being passive-aggressive, silently critical of you when you were not part of a discussion I had with someone else, and now you are trying to provoke me into an argument about works when I have very clearly taught that the works of God our always manifest when people have faith and charity. Can you take a few minutes and just catch your breath?
    I do not want to be a part of this and I am beginning to think you have malice towards me. If you are trying to drive me away and not accept me as a brother in The Lord just say so. I will leave the site. I know you are friends with Tim and I have nothing but respect for Tim and you and all believers in Christ.

    Like

    • Am I trying to start an argument? Not really. I am learning from you.

      Now, this is a thought. It is clear that I have offended you. If we are to be Zion, and, ultimately, in the kingdom of God, mutually indwelling in love and joy eternally, you and I, knowing all there is to know about one another, doesn’t it behoove us to drop defensiveness and offense? Why not assume the best of each other?

      That’s why I asked, openly, if you were criticizing me. That’s why I asked, openly, who has taught that redemption (in the baptism by fire) comes by works. I wanted to know if it was me, because if so I would need to issue a clarification.

      Please believe me that I have no ill-will towards you. But if we cannot learn how to converse with tolerance in places where we differ, then what will come of Zion?

      Here’s a story you may or may not find interesting. When I told someone that no works are good without charity, he said “you’re making it sound like we shouldn’t do anything unless we have charity.” I pondered that for a while and was going to respond, “I suppose that is correct,” when the Lord said: “Dissuade none from well-doing.”

      I understand more today about the purposes of the Lord and the so-called “doctrines of devils” abroad in the Church. I understand why several of his servants have taught that one may be baptized by fire and “know it not” in the sense of not noticing anything. It’s not my intention to hinder the work of the Lord, therefore I advance the purely positive program of the Gospel, without trying to correct each and every falsehood as I may perceive them.

      Like

      • So please forgive me for my offenses against you.

        Like

      • I truly feel like I have been trying to converse civilly with you from the get go. Your comment makes sense and I believe you had that revelation.
        The crazy thing is that from my perspective we are in agreement on our understanding of the gospel. I would never persuade anyone from well doing but I will always try to kindly teach the all important principles of faith and charity. I felt like Lynne perhaps felt like many women do in that they think they are not doing enough and not righteously enough to receive gifts of the Spirit. I was trying to encourage her to exercise faith in the immediate blessings of the atonement.
        I believe you are sincere. I have taken offense and there are no ill feelings toward any human being on earth. Thank you for working through this conversation with me. Certainly we can both say we love our Redeemer and seek nothing but to live as His Spirit directs. Perhaps we both can learn from one another as we are edified in the future. – your friend

        Like

      • The solution to “no works are good without charity” is not to do no works, but to have charity. We can’t do no works. If we lay in bed all day, that is our works.

        Typically, possession of charity will improve our works. (It’s not helping my grammar though–do no works?)

        Like

        • That’s the trick – having charity. It’s not a choice, any more than “falling in love” is a choice; it is also not something gained through practice. Charity is a gift from God, and there is but one way spoken of to gain it.

          Moroni 7
          But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

          Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

          Ask, and ye shall receive. It requires prayer with all the energy of heart.

          Like

  26. Btw just to be clear

    I agree 100 percent with the scriptures you referenced that we need to hear the sayings of The Lord (revelation) and then do them.
    Abraham was given a commandment through revelation and then he obeyed. Of course if the Spirit tells us to do something we must obey or we will not be justified. Very simple.

    I just wanted to make clear that I agree with those verses in case you thought I wouldn’t for some reason.

    Like

  27. Oh my gosh… my stomach in knots after reading this dialog.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Mormon 9:31
      31… [G]ive thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.

      Heh. Seriously. Not yet perfect here. 😉

      Like

  28. Sorry that should have been “I have taken no offense”.

    Like

  29. I ask the viewers to forgive me as well.

    How may I undo the damage I have done?

    Like

    • No forgiveness is needed where no offense is taken.

      Liked by 1 person

  30. LOG

    I love you and I am grateful for you. I am truly sorry. I take the blame for that 100 percent and I was in the wrong. Please forgive me. You have a friend in me forever and I pray God will bless you for your great faith and love.

    Like

    • I, too, am an offender in this; I could have chosen silence at any point and I was wrong to pursue it.

      I forgive you as well.

      Like

  31. Just carry on without the gloves. I love hearing from both of you. Go glad Log is back. And, MinorityofOne I love the dialog when you ask this question: When you were born of God was this a specific moment when you received the baptism of fire?

    I learned so much from both of you. I’ve had the same questions in mind. I do seek for the baptism of fire and had not know what to expect. The commentary was helpful.

    Like

    • Kathryn

      That says a lot about your character that you have still seen anything we say as having any merit and it speaks volumes of your understanding of the atonement.

      Many would see our discussion and then dismiss anything we had to say in the future. We all have weaknesses, I more than most but I know in whom we all have placed our trust and I glory in my infirmities that Christs strength can be manifest. It is good for me to make an a$& out of my self every once in a while so I can continually learn of my nothingness and become less judgemental of all others in the future.

      How can I judge any other human being after knowing Christs mercy and forgiveness when I am so undeserving?

      Like

  32. So it applies to you also – judge not that ye be not judged. The more you protest, the more judgemental you sound. The above quoted scriptures apply to all.

    Like

    • Please forgive my imperfections.

      Like

      • I acknowledge my fault.

        Luke 16:10
        10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

        Like

  33. In fact, this gives me an idea for another post…

    Like

    • You guys sound like loving brothers. Seriously. Love you both. Am grateful you did not stop short,but pushed through the mist of darkness. There we find the “Love of God” Best to you. Dave

      Like

  34. Wow. Just wow. Was starting to think that was all going to turn out quite badly.

    Like

  35. Thanks for reposting this.

    Thank you LOG for teaching me. God bless.

    Like

    • and for teaching the rest of us 🙂

      Like

  36. Yea!! So happy this post is back on. Ladies and Gentlemen, Brothers and Sisters… This wonderful post applies to all who want to become a part of Zion. Log, your post is wonderful. Keep teaching us!

    I believe these things with all of my heart. I have been asking for Christ’s intercession since earlier this year, when I was having trouble with my Evangelical family members. I was caught in a hateful trap. I continue to be cleansed, by His grace and am so thankful!

    Like

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: