Wresting the Keys of the Kingdom


KeysOfTheKingdomThe Lord woke me at 3am the other morning. I wasn’t sure what He wanted. I prayed, felt led to search and ponder some recent email communications. He asked me to respond to a good brother with whom I had been conversing about the sacrament. The dialog had turned to keys. I wrote him an email. The Lord told me to make it public. I did not heed the prompting. It kept returning.

This morning the Lord woke me at 2am. Okay. I get it. In a Fast and Testimony meeting a few years ago, a ward member got up and said, “I’m supposed to tell you …” Even though I wasn’t there, I can promise you that testimony was discussed in bishopric meeting. You don’t use those kinds of words in the LDS Church from the pulpit these days. Why? He was not in leadership.

Tradition Shall No Longer Rule

I guess I’m still struggling to shed years of tradition about how messages from the Lord are to be delivered. In the LDS Church, you don’t get up and say, “I have a message the Lord asked me to share.” It goes back to D&C 28:1-7 where Oliver was admonished in verse six, “And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head.” It also relates to the seer stone incident (D&C 28:11-13).

Well, things have changed. I’m not used to having the Lord ask me to do something and share it in a public manner as anything other than my opinion. I have a need to repent. This post is an act of repentance for me. The voice of the Lord was clear and direct, even emphatic. It is not my place to judge if it is appropriate or not. I am not to assume it might offend. My desire is to please the Lord.

Listening to the Voice of the Lord

This is the response I wrote to this good brother. He lives in California. He has contributed a lot to the FAIR website over the years, presented at FAIR conferences. I suspect he is the author of the recent postings on that site related to Denver’s book, Passing the Heavenly Gift, as well as several of the entries about Denver’s blog. I was wondering if someone would respond to those.

Thanks for the ongoing dialog. I appreciate your response to my point about keys. I assume you know my background, having been a member of the LDS Church from the time my family joined when I was five years old until just last month, when I resigned at age 57. Keys, Keys, Keys. I’ve heard it all my life. I’ve taught it from the pulpit as a High Councilor and in the classroom as a High Priest Group Leader or Gospel Doctrine Teacher. I’m fairly certain I know the church’s position on keys. I’m more interested in what the Lord has to say to me about keys. If we can agree on the definition: keys open things and can be either knowledge or authority – you tell me which way you lean – then I’d like to know why you say Denver’s claim that the Lord wrested the keys from the LDS Church is false doctrine.

Actually, I suppose I would prefer to focus on how we can each know the truth for ourselves. I know this is a fundamental basic of Mormonism 101 but it applies to this most important of claims. I don’t care about others who have made such a claim. I don’t know them. I do know Denver – a little. I have read his books, studied his blog postings, attended his lectures and, most importantly, prayed incessantly for the past two and a half years (since February 2012) about what he has shared. According to my Bishop and Stake President I have been deceived. According to your words, Denver Snuffer has been led by Satan in his proclamations. I’m sure you know he said the following in the Phoenix / Mesa lecture. I was there with my wife. We both heard it. I was thrilled. Carol was not.

“The Lord has said to me in His own voice, ‘I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you.’ Therefore, I want to caution those who disagree with me, to feel free, to feel absolutely free to make the case against what I say. Feel free to disagree, and make your contrary arguments. If you believe I err, then expose the error and denounce it. But take care; take care about what you say concerning me for your sake, not for mine. I live with constant criticism. I can take it. But I do not want you provoking Divine ire by unfortunately chosen words if I can persuade you against it.”

Now, I don’t know about you, but I have never heard anyone, at least not to my recollection, be they leader – local or general – or regular member, who has EVER said the Lord spoke to them and made such a declaration. When Carol heard this, she turned to me, with obvious annoyance, even anger in her voice and said, “He makes himself to be equal to Joseph Smith.” Someone later told me it would be more appropriate to say he made himself equal to Abraham (Genesis 12:3). In any event, it was at that moment, even though I already had prayed and received numerous witnesses to my soul about Denver’s teachings, I felt the spirit of the Lord whisper to me, “This man is authorized to speak for the Lord. He has keys.”

You know, I’m not so sure we need to rehash what Joseph said, or what Denver said. I only care about what the Lord said. When the Lord tells me something, I sit up and take notice. When the Lord whispers to me, I listen and I take action. That’s why I was baptized – as a witness to the Lord I accepted the message delivered by his messenger, Denver. I feel to bless Denver, and do so in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Now you tell me he has been deceived by Satan. Wow. That goes so contrary to what I have felt as I have read his books and have carefully studied his witness of the Savior. I can tell you the teachings of this man have brought me closer to Jesus Christ than the words of any LDS Prophet.

Charles, we don’t need to read everything written against Denver on FAIR or review what Watcher has written in his reviews. If we want to continue this dialog, the focus needs to be on personal revelation to your soul and mine. If you can say the Lord has told you “in His own voice,” that Denver is deceived of Satan when I can tell you the Lord has told me “in His own voice” that Denver is authorized to speak on behalf of the Lord, then there is no point in continuing this dialog. Help me understand how you know the voice of the Lord. I would be more than pleased to discuss my experiences with the voice of the Lord. But if you’re going to curse Denver Snuffer, I don’t want to continue this dialog. What say ye?

I have not heard back from D. Charles Pyle. When I awoke at 2am this morning, in addition to posting my response above, I had an email waiting for me from Keith Henderson. You remember Keith. He was the man who stood at the end of the Mesa lecture and sealed it in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. In his email, he gave me permission to share the following:

The Witness of Keith Henderson

Bishop B——- & others who may read: (I have elected to leave out the bishop’s name.)

I can no longer consider myself in line or in agreement with many of the tenets or “doctrine” of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as it exists today.  The Church has, in my opinion, moved itself so far from the original idea of the Restoration, and the pure Doctrine of Christ, as restored by the Prophet Joseph Smith, as to be almost un-recognizable to me.

Those things that are particularly offensive to me, and I feel to the Holy Spirit also, are: (See 1-4 below)

1.  The requirement to espouse a belief in and follow a man as though he is equal to God, or as though he can stand between me and God and arbitrate my salvation.  This is an unauthorized addition to the pure Doctrine of Christ as revealed to us by Nephi, Christ Himself, and Joseph, wherein the scripture says anyone adding to His doctrine is not of Christ, but is against Him, and therefore it follows that anyone believing in such an unauthorized addition makes them also against Christ, and not of His church. (See D&C 10: 57-70.  See also 2 Ne. 31: 5 through 2 Ne 32: 6.  Also 3 Ne. 11: 31-49.)  I believe in the scriptures and not in any such additions by other men.

I have in the past sustained Thomas S. Monson as the man who fills the seat entitled President of the High Priesthood or President of the Church, and have offered my prayers in behalf of him and his counselors, in faith and confidence as required by scripture (see D&C 107: 22).  I have offered these prayers that he would measure up, and be sustained by the Lord in the great responsibilities and requirements of this holy office.

When the Church began requiring me to sustain the First Presidency as prophets, seers, and revelators; presumably using the instruction in D&C 107: 92 where it says, “…And to be like Moses; yea to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet, having all the gifts of God which he bestows upon the head of the church;”  I complied, believing, and understanding this to be descriptive of a hope, or ambition, not as an office, and to be given as gifts to them, if God willed to do so.  I never did presume that sustaining them as prophets, seers, and revelators, empowered them to make the claim to possess these gifts in the absence of God bestowing these things upon them.  So I waited for God’s hand to vindicate the expectancy, never thinking that by merely voting I could elevate a mere man to possess what is God’s right alone to give.

It now has become mandatory that I sustain those of the First Presidency as though these gifts are an office, never considering that perhaps the gifts have not been qualified for.  I will not continue to raise my hand to sustain men who never reveal, never prophecy, never demonstrate seership, nor who never translate.  And if any man has these gifts, he does not need my vote to vindicate his power before God, nor does my sustaining him vindicate his claims.  Rather than requiring me to sustain a man’s claims by my vote, perhaps you should require me to vote on the visible and tangible fruits of his claims, and whether I would have them binding on me by my part in the common consent.   I, however, do have a testimony of Joseph Smith demonstrating all these gifts by their fruits, thereby qualifying for my sustaining vote.

I have found it way more profitable to follow and rely upon my Savior, Jesus Christ, than to follow President Monson.  Actually I have yet to find a requirement in the scriptures stating that I have any obligation to follow any man, but I have found plenty of commandments requiring me to follow Jesus Christ.  I do not follow these men, nor will I continue to sustain them as currently required, in that I am required to say they hold all the keys of the Gospel on the earth.  I do not believe they do.  Further I do not believe they [the leaders] or you [their subservients], when you ask this question as part of the recommend interview, can give a delineated list of what these keys are.  Perhaps a list would be helpful, then I could know what is meant, and exactly what I’m subscribing to.  Others may choose to believe otherwise or however they please.

I think that for myself I will rather believe what it says in D&C 76: 99-100, that those who say they are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas, or of John, or Moses, or of Elias, or of Esaias, or of Isaiah, or of Enoch, or even of Thomas S. Monson; that they who say they are of one or another, or of the whole lot of these, qualify themselves as belonging only in a Telestial Glory.  I don’t want that for myself, and don’t think you should want that for me, or for any other, either.  Instead I will continue as I have come to believe, and as it says in 2 Nephi 9: 41-42,

“O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One.  Remember that his paths are righteous.  Behold the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.  And whoso knocketh, to him will he open…”

In other words, I do not believe that the First presidency can or should speak to God, on my personal behalf.  I do not believe the Twelve Apostles can or should speak to God, on my personal behalf.  I will speak to God directly, in the name of my Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ, for and on behalf of my own self, and let Him whose right it is, arbitrate my condition with God, thank you.  The Children of Israel begged Moses to speak to God for them, and not require that they personally speak to God for themselves, and for such a revolution they brought judgment upon themselves containing much less than the fullness of the priesthood, as was God’s original intent.  Can you imagine that?!

“If the children of Israel in that day, were cursed by God because they said Moses must talk to God and not themselves, how much greater must be the damnation upon those today who say, you must not talk to God, because we have one who does so for you!  Who preach that “you are not entitled to receive anything beyond the bonds of your own limited position or calling, in this beehive we’ve constructed!” Damnable heresy!  Doctrines of devils!  Propounded by those who are purveyors of a false priestcraft!  Unauthorized by God! Unsanctioned by Him!  They suffer not themselves to enter in and would hedge up the way for me if I gave heed to them.”

Also I do not find anywhere in scripture, nor do I believe there is any kind of requirement to sustain the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators, or that they hold the keys of the Kingdom of God.  Nor do I believe that any of these above named men and in particular the Church President, are protected by God, in that they cannot do, or speak falsely, or lead others astray, because God will not allow it, or take them away first, or whatever.  For me to believe that, requires me to believe that God has set aside the agency of these men which I do not believe.  Others may think however they like, according to their own knowledge.

2.  The idea that any man, be he prophet or not, can arbitrarily change any scripture or doctrine or ordinance given by God to the Prophet Joseph Smith without direct revelation by God dictating the change, and the common consent vote of the membership making such a revelatory change binding upon the body.

There are too many instances where this has occurred for me to list all, so I will just use a couple as examples:

A.  For example D&C 89, commonly called the Word of Wisdom.  The revelation says at the beginning, “To be sent greeting, not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom…”  It has, however, been elevated (actually changed, not elevated) to a commandment, and made a “constraining” requirement for entry into the temple.  However, not all the revelation in this section is considered in this vein, only verses 5-9.  You tell me it is a commandment that I either abstain from these specified items or I will be “constrained” from attending the temple, where you otherwise say my “spiritual” salvation can be assured.  This revelation tells me, however, that these things are the will of God in regard to my “temporal” salvation, (verse 2) and says nothing concerning them affecting my spiritual salvation.  All other parts of the revelation, and whether or not I obey or disobey, don’t have any bearing on my worthiness.  I can eat anything, healthy or otherwise, and it means nothing.  But let alcohol or tobacco touch these lips, and I will be disqualified from almost everything, and especially the temple, wherein you say my salvation lies.

Has common sense taken leave of us?  I know of no place where further revelation changing this original revelation to a commandment is recorded, and know of no instance in which changes were voted on by common consent to be binding upon the body of the saints.  It was done by fiat, by a man, much later than its origination, and now I’m required to just bow and say Okee Dokee.  This is not for me.  I do not believe God works in any such manner as this.  I believe this to be the precepts of men mingled with scripture.  I believe, further, this whole section to be a “principle, with a promise,” (verse 3) and one of those items which Joseph meant when he said, “I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.”  If a mere man can change God’s word on a whim, or even for what he considers a good reason, without God’s intervention commanding him to do so, then all scripture is suspect and only confusion can reign.  These are my thoughts and the religion I desire.  Others may think and desire whatever they like.

B.  Also for instance, the changing of the wording of the prayers on the Sacrament.  Every scriptural instance such as, D&C 20: 79; Moroni 5: 2; and the example given in 3 Nephi 18: 8, all tell us that “wine” is the emblem of His blood and you find if you look closely enough, that even though the Lord told Joseph, in one instance, as he went to procure wine from someone whom the Lord knew to be an enemy, that “It mattereth not what you eat or drink,” he never made any allowance for a change in the wording of the prayers.  By the way, Joseph returned home from that incident, and with Emma, Newell Knight, and His wife, and John Whitmer,  made a “wine” of their own preparation.  Water was never used. (see D&C 27: 2-4; also HC 1: 106-108.)   Again, where is the Lord’s authorization for the word change in the sacrament prayers, and where is the record of the common consent concurrence by the membership making it binding on the saints?  Do we think these things don’t matter to the Lord?  I for one, think they do. Others may think how they like.

C.  And one more example.  I have been a full tithe and offerings payer most all of my adult life.  I have felt confidence that my offerings were being used as I directed within the categories offered upon the tithing slip, and beyond that I felt it was indicative of my faith that I allow the use of my paid funds to be administered however the committee on the disposition of the tithes decided was appropriate within those categories.  Then all of a sudden a spurious and unsettling statement showed up on the tithing slip which says, “Though reasonable efforts will be made globally to use donations as designated, all donations become the Church’s property and will be used at the Church’s sole discretion to further the Church’s overall mission.”

Now I have no guarantee that any of the funds I designate in the titled categories on the slip will be used as I thought or desired they be used.  My desire has simply been wiped out of the equation by a legalese statement making my money the “Corporation Sole’s” money, and he (President Monson, the church’s sole owner) will damned well use it however he pleases.  Not on my watch he won’t!  Not with my money he won’t!  I will take charge of my own tithing and fast offerings and disburse and care for the poor among and around me as I’m commanded.  And others can pray and pay, and do as they like.

I further find out that huge investments are being made, and increased, in land holdings, cattle operations, fruit and nut farms, banks, communication facilities, etc., and that mega-malls and other “for profit” concerns are being built using the tithing funds.  I can hear the screams now.  “No! No! We are not using tithing funds, but only the investment income and profits we generate from all the investments we make.  No tithing is being used.”  Ye vipers!  Have you not read in Matthew 25: 14-27, the parable of the talents?  If so, you do not understand its meaning!  The man who receives one talent buries that talent and when the Master requires an accounting he says, “I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strewed: And I was afraid and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.  His Lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou newest that I reap where I sowed not, and gathered where I have not strewed:  Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.”

In other words He owns it.  He owns all of it.  He owns the interest, He owns the investment.  He owns it all and it is “His Tithing.”  And there is nothing that is generated from tithing that is not tithing, thus making it applicable to the requirements for tithing.   In the parable there is no such thing as “investment income.”  And have you (meaning the church leaders) shut your eyes and are you blind to the condemnation Nephi heaped upon us when he said, “Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their [our] churches have become corrupted, and their [our] churches are lifted up; because of pride are they [we] puffed up.  They [we] rob the poor because of their [our] fine sanctuaries; they [we] rob the poor because of their [our] fine clothing; and they [we] persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they [we] are puffed up.” (2 Nephi 28: 12-13. Insertions are mine.)  Who exactly did you think Nephi was speaking about?  Do you not know that the Book of Mormon is prophecy rather than history?  I personally cannot condone this use of my tithing money in this way, and will not participate any longer in this fraudulent use of the Lord’s money.

Then, the lack of financial accountability to the membership is another whole matter which I deplore, but will not go into other than to say it is a shame on your [the leader’s] part that you do not provide the required accountability and that you seek deep to hide your counsels from the sheep you are shearing [and the Lord].  And it is a shame on our [the member’s] part that we don’t refuse you our common consent, because you don’t provide the scripturally required accountability with clarity.

3.  The restructuring of the priesthood, and the correlating of everything to it.

If there is one proof that there is no effective priesthood within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it is the hierarchal structuring of the priesthood, and the correlating of all offices, programs, policies, doctrine, and teaching beneath the umbrella of one man’s priesthood.  By doing this you [again, the leadership] have negated the priesthood instruction Joseph Smith gave as D&C 121: 34-37.  You have, by making a hierarchal structure such as this, built into the priesthood system “control, dominion, and compulsion.”  Now I fully understand that this works well for a “for profit” organization, but in the Lord’s church it is forbidden.  It furthermore is forbidden upon penalty of forfeiture of priesthood authority and power.  In the instruction it says,

“That they [the rights of the priesthood] may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control, dominion, or compulsion upon the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, amen to the priesthood or authority of that man.”

Now the scripture is written on a singular basis, but you [the church leaders] have managed to perpetrate this unrighteousness en mass.  A hierarchal structure such as this is all about control, and dominion, and is fertile ground for compulsion.  So I ask you, where in this church can priesthood be found?  Well, to answer my own question; it can be found in persuasion, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, and love un-feigned, by kindness, and pure knowledge, without hypocrisy, and without guile. (see D&C 121: 41-42.)  Isn’t it interesting that some of our wives are found abounding in these [priesthood] things, while we [the men] are trying to garner to ourselves more control and dominion, and a higher seat, and consequently lose priesthood power, and authority.

All Priesthood power is found only in connecting ourselves to heaven.  You might even say, only by connecting ourself to the power of heaven, or in other words connecting ourselves to Jesus Christ.  Fortunately some few have been able to do this, and by so doing have garnered to themselves a priesthood recognized in heaven: even as it says in JST Genesis 14: 29, “And it [this priesthood] was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.”  This is able to be done because, as I quoted before from 2 Nephi 9: 41, “God, the Holy One of Israel is the keeper of the gate and employeth no servant there.”  I would hope more of us would try it.  But then, I hope primarily without much faith, because, “few there be that find it.”

4.  That those we call prophets have caused the earth to be defiled under the inhabitants thereof by altering and changing the ordinances.

“They have transgressed the law, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant.”(Isaiah 24: 5.)  Furthermore, Joseph Smith said, “Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed.” (TPJS p.308.)  Now tell me how many times in your lifetime have you seen the ordinances in the temple change?  This will be dependent upon how old you are; for changes, alterations, subtractions, additions, changes to format, and changes to clothing, have been going on for well over a hundred years.

“Into the darkness that prevails in the minds of men who instigate or authorize changes to the ordinances, enters the devil with such arguments as: “Why do it that way?  It really doesn’t matter or mean anything.  It is arcane and outdated.  It really doesn’t matter as long as you continue to have faith in Christ.”  [That particular lie is very effective because it allows the person to presume they have faith, when in fact they haven’t faith sufficient to obey Christ].”  Continuing on with the lies: “People will get more out of the changes if we make them.  Our numbers will increase.  What we change isn’t important anyway.  If it were important, we would know that, and since it doesn’t seem important to us, and because our polling data shows it is not important to those who attend, it must, in fact, not be important.  Change is proof that God is still leading us.”  …And other such arguments and persuasions from our adversary.  And all that has happened  by making changes to the ordinances is we have been cheated out of God’s gift to us, and we have been carefully led down to hell.  I want no part of this anymore, either.  Others are free to choose their own course.

Now, after all this, my testimony is:

I believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ.  I believe that Joseph Smith was and is the Prophet of this Dispensation of the Restoration of all Things.  I believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God.  And I believe in the many other things Joseph received, which we as a Church have cast off as either not understandable or worthless. [i.e. The Lectures on Faith]. I believe in these revelations and in all the revelations which he wrote, and others yet to come, whether to myself, or to others whom He [Christ] will call as His servants.  In fact, I believe God has called a Servant to speak His words in this our very own day;  one, in fact, who does speak in the name of the Lord God, and gives His words to us.  I believe that Denver C. Snuffer Jr. is that servant and stands as an Abinadi or a Samuel on the wall, or as a Lehi required by God to preach a message to Idol worshipping Jerusalem.  And I believe that many will try to kill him or run him out, or destroy the word which God speaks through him.  I believe that the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is to come again on the earth and much is available today because of the translations and revelations of Joseph, and also now again, because of the words of Jesus Christ being spoken to us, in today’s part of the Restoration, through the many writings and revelations and talks of this Denver C. Snuffer Jr..  I believe that the fullness of the priesthood is available to anyone who qualifies and receives it by the voice of Jesus Christ, under the direction of the Father.  I do believe there is much worth yet in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in that its crippled ordinances, even now still point the way to knowledge which can be received for real.  And most of its people are kind and wonderful and many are my dear friends, but they do not rise up because they don’t know what has happened, and what is available, and simply where to find it.  I do not, however, believe that the church or its leaders or any other man can provide salvation for any man or woman, and that to the extent we think they can, we engage in idolatry, and move in proximity away from He through whom salvation comes.

In consequence of this testimony I will obey the will of the Lord in:

Seeking for His continual personal administration.
Seeking for Zion and its establishment.
Participating with and be-friending any individual or group I see fit, whether they be atheist, agnostic, lgbt, apostate, excommunicated or antagonist toward the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or even if they love the Mormons.
Speaking what I view as truth to whomever I please or am commanded, or to whomever will listen.
Holding study groups in my home on any subject I choose.
Attending study groups in other’s homes upon invitation.
Administering my own tithing and offerings. (See seeking for Zion above.)
Worshipping my God according to the dictates of my own conscience, and according to the will of His Holy Spirit upon me.
Influencing my family in my beliefs.
Influencing others in my beliefs.

At this point, I definitely want to state that no part of this account of my beliefs constitute in any way the resignation of my membership from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I am simply exercising by right and claim that all men should be encouraged and allowed to believe and worship how, where, or what they may, and that I should be allowed to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of my own conscience.  The beliefs of a man, according to Joseph Smith, do not determine his goodness nor his worthiness.  It is our acceptance and obedience to the scriptures and ordinances which we have all received which should dictate, and not any manual made up by men.

I will understand your desire to exercise your control and dominion over me, and will even tolerate moderate attempts at coercion.

I would like to invite you to exercise your priesthood in this matter, in the Lord’s way.  Threats will not sway me.  Sanctions you might try to impose will mean nothing to me.  Even ex-communication is not a daunting thing to me.  I have a priesthood, and an assignment in that priesthood.  It comes from a source you can neither influence nor abrogate.  You can bless yourselves in how you treat me, and my seemingly, rather unbelievable views, or you can condemn yourselves in the process of your actions; so I would advise you to rely rather heavily on the will of the Lord in any of your matters regarding this.

Sincerely
Keith M. Henderson
October 8, 2014

A Few Final Thoughts

If I were Keith’s Bishop I would be hesitant to act. We can be certain this letter has been seen by Keith’s Stake President, Area President, probably a member of the Twelve and possibly the First Presidency. I presume the Church does not want bad publicity right now, especially after excommunicating the wife of a fellow blogger last Sunday. I can understand why Adrian was disciplined but wonder why they excommunicated his wife in the same council, simply for being his wife and standing by his side. I also wonder what will happen to Keith. What do you think?

124 Responses

  1. Here’s what I think: as a general principle, I do not care what someone believes or thinks. I only care what they know, and I am unimpressed by statements which to all appearances are naught more than regurgitated Snuffer.

    When someone pitches interpretations at me, I reject him, because I am able of myself to generate infinite interpretations, and I prefer mine to anyone’s. (You know the old saw about opinions and a**holes – everyone’s got one, and everyone else’s stinks.) On the other hand, when a man speaks as a witness, then I have to sit up and take notice. I notice that very few are willing to speak as a witness, but many are willing to accuse others of sins of the heart, where there can be no witness other than God.

    So, if someone is going to accuse someone else of seeking deep to hide their counsels, or of hearkening to the voice of the adversary in what they have done, I want to know how he knoweth the thoughts and intents of their hearts. If he is unwilling to testify “Thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me, saying…” then why would I listen to another freelancer? There are many blogs on Tim’s blogroll with breathtakingly presumptuous names to which I can go and get my fill of regurgitated Snuffer coupled with unjustified accusations and preachments to the LDS people and leadership decrying “our” sins, saying “we” need repentance.

    What, you are yourself clean? What, have you yourself entered into the presence of God and Christ? No? Or are you unwilling to say? Why therefore do you not tend to yourself first, then come and tell “us” what “we” need to do?

    I am wearied by people who confess the sins of others, or even “us” as a people (confessing the sins of others, particularly sins of the heart, is accusation unless you receive it by revelation and are commanded to speak – and in that case, claim your authority openly). I am wearied by accusations from freelancers who do not recognize the spirit that motivates them and who refuse reproof by reference to the word of God.

    Tim, on the other hand, has openly claimed his assignment and authority – he has skin in the game. He has publicly taken upon himself the burden of being a true or a false prophet. Therefore I listen.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Amen Log. Less pontificating, more connecting…if you connect, I want to hear about it. Want to talk about others connecting, well that’s OK, but of little interest to me.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Log. Welcome back!

      I understand where you are coming from, but your stance feels extreme to me. As members of the Church, we are asked to sustain the leaders of the Church. This is, in essence, asking us to make a judgment of them. Are we not held accountable for the judgment we make? Are we really supposed to assume the best in everyone simply because God has not told us everything that is in their heart? God did not tell us not to judge, but to judge righteous judgment. (JST Matt. 7:2). So, we are expected to judge. Did he not also say, “By their fruits shall ye know them”? (Matt. 7:20) We may not know everything within the hearts of the leaders of the Church, but their fruits are plain to see. Christ expects us to “know them” or judge them by their fruits. Otherwise, we may be led astray.

      D&C 38:42 says “go ye out from among the wicked.” How are we supposed to go out from them unless we know (or judge) who they are?

      The Lord gave us the key to discerning between the righteous and the wicked.

      “And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.
      And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.
      For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.
      And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
      And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.” (D&C 84:49-53)

      Certainly we must seek confirmation from the Lord concerning all things, but it seems extreme (and unscriptural) to say, as you appear to be implying, that we cannot judge anyone without a perfect knowledge.

      Liked by 1 person

      • I will point you to this post.

        You are free to apply whatever standard you wish to judgement.

        Like

        • I read your post previously and I found it enlightening. Yet, I still don’t see how Keith Henderson’s remarks above fall into the category of slander, defamation, malice, backbiting, contention or other things you mentioned. He did not make any ad-hominem attacks on any of the leaders of the Church. He only outlines the policies of the Church that he disagrees with. His first sentence gives a pretty good summary: “I can no longer consider myself in line or in agreement with many of the tenets or “doctrine” of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as it exists today.”

          Where were his unjustified accusations? Where did he make an unrighteous judgment?

          Like

        • I don’t know where you are addressing a claim of my own. Can you please quote whichever of my own claims you are addressing?

          Like

  2. Wresting the keys of the Kingdom is not a principle of the Gospel and is not the way the Lord works for the eternal happiness of man. Before Denver Snuffer, it has never been taught, claimed, practiced, or attempted. It is a vain man who claims he somehow took authority away from the prophets of God. If God ever needs to take authority away from one of His chosen leaders, He will do it Himself.

    Denver Snuffer is like all pretending reformers of the restored Gospel in the latter days… He uses a part of the truth and mixes it with his own ideas. The truth mixed with lies is a lie.

    There is so much more to comment on in articles like this one. I wish I could point out all of the fallacies and the non-Christian attitudes. But there isn’t time, and most people who follow these teachings now are not showing much inclination for open-mindedness. Whoever is seriously interested in what is concerning about this movement can contact me directly.

    There are many beautiful principles in the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, many wonderful things we can barely perceive. But mostly He wants us to become loving, kind, serving people. Christ’s Gospel is all about helping us to become the kind of men and women we were foreordained to become. May we concentrate on that and not lose sight of it by focusing on precepts of men. May God bless the good-hearted people among you and bring you back to His Church.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thank you Steve. That was a very kind response. In the revelation on Priesthood, Section 84, we read that John the Baptist “was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power.” (verse 28)

      My interpretation of that scripture is that the Lord, through John, wrested the keys of the kingdom from the leaders of the Jews. They held the Aaronic priesthood, which the Savior said “continued until John.” (verse 27) Steve, as kindly as I know how to say it, you are wrong. The Lord has done this before and has done it again in our day. The keys were lost both times because of unrighteous dominion.

      Like

  3. Tim

    Thank you for posting this. I felt the Spirit during a few parts.

    1. There are others that God has told that he will bless those that bless them, and curse those that curse them. This is not such an uncommon thing that anyone should think it means anything concerning anything other than the statement itself, it is not indicative of Denver’s equivalence to joseph smith or Abraham. It simply is what it is.

    2. I am a little surprised that this was the man who gave a second witness of Denver snuffer at the final lecture. He ended with a testimony wherein he said “I believe… I believe…” Like Log said this is meaningless. It is good for him that he did not state to know something he didn’t, but my daughter believes in the tooth fairy. She really does. Now I have to think twice about this mans credibility as a witness to anything. Ultimately we must all gain our own witnesses and speak with The Lord ourselves.
    It is refreshing to read a post wherein you claimed The Lord told you to do this. The Spirit has told me that whenever we boldly claim to others that something we declare is from God (when it truly was) it is a way of acknowledging our faith and showing gratitude for what we have been given. We have not been given the spirit of fear, but of power and a sound mind.
    Thanks Tim

    Liked by 1 person

    • Minorityofone: I’m not surprised he stated his testimony as beliefs. I suspect there is a reason for that, perhaps contained earlier in the letter, when he offered the following commentary on beliefs:

      “…all men should be encouraged and allowed to believe and worship how, where, or what they may, and that I should be allowed to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of my own conscience. The beliefs of a man, according to Joseph Smith, do not determine his goodness nor his worthiness”

      I would focus on these words from the letter: ” I have a priesthood, and an assignment in that priesthood.” I have asked the Lord if I have a priesthood and an assignment. His response:

      “Yes, Tim. You have a priesthood and you know your assignment.” I double checked in prayer this morning and received confirmation. I guess it comes down to believing what we hear when we ask.

      That’s why in my email to D. Charles Pyle I emphasized that what others say or write is not as important as what the Lord says to us when we ask. Do you, do I, do we recognize the voice of the Lord?

      Like

  4. I received revelation and God has asked me to share this today.

    President thomas s monson has received revelation from God on particular doctrines of the LDS church that he now knows to be false. He has shared his revelation with the first presidency and quorum of the twelve. They are split in their acceptance of what president monson has received. Some of them believe it is a product of his dementia, others believe but can do nothing without a unanimous vote from the first presidency and the quorum of the twelve.
    These revelations would change church policy and the idolatry of the men and women in the church who worship the brethren, but it would not be comfortable. God has given the LDS church a chance to even play by the LDS rules and has spoken to Monson, and the members of the twelve and/or first presidency are at odds over how to proceed. Time is limited for them and God is giving every chance for them to repent, even going through the man they sustain as prophet, seer, and revelator. Much rests on this and how the 15 men proceed.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Minority of One: Someone will ask so it might as well be me. When I ask the Lord for revelation, it is usually for authorization to share something I previously received and recorded or held in my heart.

      When you asked for and received this revelation, was it to reveal something you know from another source, or your own knowledge? I asked the Lord and felt impressed you have additional knowledge.

      I’m asking. Do you have additional knowledge? I’m not asking you to share that additional knowledge, just if the revelation was to share parts of what you already know from personal “inside” knowledge.

      Like

      • What I shared has been known by multiple people for some time. Today I was only told to share something that I had learned by the Spirit some time ago. It may have been because I was pondering on your own message. I don’t know. The Lord works in His own ways but I received a clear prompting to share this.
        Think on president uchtdorfs last couple of talks where he talked about additional knowledge, about how we should not be asleep for the restoration, etc. president Eyring I think it was spoke about how people thought lehi was “a crazy old man” etc.
        These guys are not in harmony with each other.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Minorityofone,
          It is interesting what you shared in your revelation. I remember in 2012 when Denver Snuffer posted this about the upcoming October 2012 conference:

          “I’ve heard from several sources that Elder Russell M. Nelson has announced to a number of Stake Presidents that President Thomas S. Monson has received a revelation that will affect every man, woman, and child in the church. This revelation is supposed to be announced in the upcoming general conference.”

          I was very hopeful and listened with great intent when Pres. Monson spoke that conference, and was greatly disappointed when he finished (to say the least).

          Is it possible that he was supposed to deliver his revelation then but was stopped by the others from doing so and instead we were given a mere policy change about the ages men and women can serve missions?

          Liked by 1 person

        • Thanks, MinorityofOne. I spent an hour yesterday re-reading all the comments you have left on the blog over the past month or so. I did this for two reasons. One, you became the top commenter yesterday. Two, I am impressed with the cheerful attitude that seeps through your comments. You seem genuinely happy to be sharing the things you do.

          In one of your early comments you said – and I can’t find it now – that someday, if you felt so inclined, you would share your testimony of how the spirit has worked with you and led you to many truths. I may have gotten the exact words wrong, but I felt impressed to ask you if you would mind sharing what you had in mind when you wrote that.

          Sorry I can’t point you to the exact comment right now. I had it marked yesterday but I know it is directly related to the way you started your comment above: “I received revelation and God has asked me to share this today.” I’m asking because my life has changed tremendously in the last month. I have never had the Lord be so direct with me.

          I have spent a lifetime trying to fine-tune my ability to hear the voice of the Lord. Sometimes He speaks when I have not asked, such as when I was sitting in the Mesa Lecture and He bore witness to me about keys. I still don’t know if those keys were keys of knowledge, keys of authority or both. All I know is the Lord said Denver had keys.

          Like

    • President Monson has the pulpit, does he not? If he has the words of God and he does not share them, that is scary indeed.

      There is precedent for a senile prophet making true prophecies–Isaac, at the end of his life, blessing Jacob and Esau.

      Liked by 1 person

      • If I’m not mistaken, all talks, at all levels, have to pass through the Correlation committee.

        Liked by 1 person

        • I don’t think Elder Haight’s final talks were correlated. I would hope that President Monson could just say whatever he wanted. I doubt they would get the giant hook and pull him off stage.

          Liked by 1 person

        • In the past, when talks have been presented which did not pass muster with whomever, they had the individual re-write the talk to omit the offending material, re-record the talk with a “ambient noise” track, and put the edited talk in the Ensign. That, at least, is what was done with Elder Poelman.

          Liked by 1 person

      • “The Quorum of the Twelve meets in the Salt Lake Temple, often weekly, to transact all business that requires decisions by the Quorum. They seek unanimity in all their decisions. (Doctrine and Covenants 107:27) If agreement is not reached, then matters under consideration are tabled for additional consideration. If a unanimous decision is reached, then the matter is taken to a joint council between the Quorum and the First Presidency, and the two bodies consider final action on the matter.”

        Things that would alter the entire state of the church are supposed to be done with the unanimous approval of all 15 men. Monson would not overstep this.

        Anyway I don’t think people know how bad monsons dementia is. I have a family member that works extemely close to president monson and related how before conference he was pumped full of meds, and presented with his talk and aids grilled him hour after hour as he repeated his talk time after time before conference. They wanted to be sure he would read only what was on the Tele prompter and not deviate.

        Frankly, I don’t really blame the other apostles if they thought a new “revelation” from him was just another episode.

        They have so much at stake financially and they have made so many business bonds with babylon, that hurting the reputation of the church hurts multiple business. There are so many pressures and implications to all of this that we have no idea about. These guys are slaves now to Babylon. They are as much puppets as they are leaders of the church.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Minoirtyofone said:
          “They have so much at stake financially and they have made so many business bonds with babylon, that hurting the reputation of the church hurts multiple business. There are so many pressures and implications to all of this that we have no idea about. These guys are slaves now to Babylon. They are as much puppets as they are leaders of the church.”

          I agree with your comment. Church leaders in the past put the church in a position that is at odds with Zion when they changed us from a church to a corporate sole in 1916. In my opinion, ever since then we have been officially yoked to Bablyon.

          I do feel sorry for the brethren today, since they are between a rock and a hard place. They have become slaves to their master. In reality, we are all slaves to Babylon, the only hope I have personally to be free is to turn my heart, mind and soul towards Christ and recognize the awful situation we are all in.

          Liked by 2 people

        • Thank you for sharing your insights and perspective, Minorityofone. I am amazed at The Lord’s timing in speaking to President Monson now…(Not that He had not always been, but I think you understand my meaning.)

          Like

  5. Behold the law of God.

    Alma 30
    6 But it came to pass in the latter end of the seventeenth year, there came a man into the land of Zarahemla, and he was Anti-Christ, for he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the coming of Christ.

    7 Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.

    8 For thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve.

    9 Now if a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege; or rather, if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to punish him.

    10 But if he murdered he was punished unto death; and if he robbed he was also punished; and if he stole he was also punished; and if he committed adultery he was also punished; yea, for all this wickedness they were punished.

    11 For there was a law that men should be judged according to their crimes. Nevertheless, there was no law against a man’s belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done; therefore all men were on equal grounds.

    And I am not going to interpret any of this for anyone.

    Alma 1
    16 Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines; and this they did for the sake of riches and honor.

    17 Nevertheless, they durst not lie, if it were known, for fear of the law, for liars were punished; therefore they pretended to preach according to their belief; and now the law could have no power on any man for his belief.

    18 And they durst not steal, for fear of the law, for such were punished; neither durst they rob, nor murder, for he that murdered was punished unto death.

    19 But it came to pass that whosoever did not belong to the church of God began to persecute those that did belong to the church of God, and had taken upon them the name of Christ.

    20 Yea, they did persecute them, and afflict them with all manner of words, and this because of their humility; because they were not proud in their own eyes, and because they did impart the word of God, one with another, without money and without price.

    21 Now there was a strict law among the people of the church, that there should not any man, belonging to the church, arise and persecute those that did not belong to the church, and that there should be no persecution among themselves.

    22 Nevertheless, there were many among them who began to be proud, and began to contend warmly with their adversaries, even unto blows; yea, they would smite one another with their fists.

    23 Now this was in the second year of the reign of Alma, and it was a cause of much affliction to the church; yea, it was the cause of much trial with the church.

    24 For the hearts of many were hardened, and their names were blotted out, that they were remembered no more among the people of God. And also many withdrew themselves from among them.

    25 Now this was a great trial to those that did stand fast in the faith; nevertheless, they were steadfast and immovable in keeping the commandments of God, and they bore with patience the persecution which was heaped upon them.

    26 And when the priests left their labor to impart the word of God unto the people, the people also left their labors to hear the word of God. And when the priest had imparted unto them the word of God they all returned again diligently unto their labors; and the priest, not esteeming himself above his hearers, for the preacher was no better than the hearer, neither was the teacher any better than the learner; and thus they were all equal, and they did all labor, every man according to his strength.

    27 And they did impart of their substance, every man according to that which he had, to the poor, and the needy, and the sick, and the afflicted; and they did not wear costly apparel, yet they were neat and comely.

    28 And thus they did establish the affairs of the church; and thus they began to have continual peace again, notwithstanding all their persecutions.

    29 And now, because of the steadiness of the church they began to be exceedingly rich, having abundance of all things whatsoever they stood in need—an abundance of flocks and herds, and fatlings of every kind, and also abundance of grain, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things, and abundance of silk and fine-twined linen, and all manner of good homely cloth.

    30 And thus, in their prosperous circumstances, they did not send away any who were naked, or that were hungry, or that were athirst, or that were sick, or that had not been nourished; and they did not set their hearts upon riches; therefore they were liberal to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, whether out of the church or in the church, having no respect to persons as to those who stood in need.

    31 And thus they did prosper and become far more wealthy than those who did not belong to their church.

    32 For those who did not belong to their church did indulge themselves in sorceries, and in idolatry or idleness, and in babblings, and in envyings and strife; wearing costly apparel; being lifted up in the pride of their own eyes; persecuting, lying, thieving, robbing, committing whoredoms, and murdering, and all manner of wickedness; nevertheless, the law was put in force upon all those who did transgress it, inasmuch as it was possible.

    33 And it came to pass that by thus exercising the law upon them, every man suffering according to that which he had done, they became more still, and durst not commit any wickedness if it were known; therefore, there was much peace among the people of Nephi until the fifth year of the reign of the judges.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Well, maybe a little.

      Babbling = “talking idly, telling secrets.” IE gossipping.

      Sorceries = drug use (think anxiety meds, antidepressants, and anti-psychotics).

      Liked by 1 person

      • Log

        Would you explain your definition of sorceries = drug use (anxiety meds, antidepressants, and anti-psychotics. I thought the definition was mage, wizard, crystal ball… etc.

        Thanks

        Liked by 1 person

        • Rev. 9:21 – Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

          Rev. 18:23 – And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

          Which, if you follow to the right word, gives you this.

          φαρμακεία, pharmakeia

          Potions and pills, the same today as it was yesterday and since the beginning.

          A significant aspect of the apocalyptic picture is the technological advancement of the doomed and wicked world in which men defy God, confident in their technological and scientific knowledge (there’s a great deal about this). To the various fallen angels designated by name, the Enoch text assigns the introduction among men of the study of chemistry, the manufacture of weapons and jewelry and cosmetics, the trade secrets of angels—formulas, incantations, drugs, astrologies,” and so forth. “They thought to emancipate themselves from dependence on God through their technological know-how.” This is not as foolish as it sounds, says the Zohar, for “they knew all the arts and all the ruling principles that governed the cosmos, and on this knowledge they relied until at length God corrected them by restoring the earth to its primitive state and covered it with water.” In the days of Enoch even the children were acquainted with the mysterious arts—what we would call advanced sciences. Rabbi Yasah says, “With all that knowledge could they not foresee destruction?” to which Rabbi Isaac replies, “They knew, all right, but they thought they were just smart enough to prevent it, but what they did not know was that God rules the world. He gave them respite as long as the righteous men Jared, Methuselah, and Enoch were alive, but when they departed from the world, God let the punishment descend and they were blotted from the earth.” “Alas,” cries Rabbi Simeon, “for the blindness of the sons of men, all unaware as they are, how full the earth is of strange and invisible beings and hidden dangers, which could they but see them, they would marvel how they themselves can survive ten minutes on the earth.” In Enoch’s time, they had all sorts of engineering projects for controlling and taming nature, as did Nimrod, but the Lord altered the order of creation so that their mastery of nature became their own undoing. The same scientific prowess that led them to reject God led them to insult nature, and the upheavals that engulfed them demonstrate the very real ecological connection between the sins of men and the revolt of the elements. This was formally viewed as fatal extravagance and irrational apocalyptic. source

          Therefore, when you see witchcraft, witches, warlocks, sorcerers, sorceries, &c. in the scriptures, think of the modern medical / psychiatric / pharmaceutical industry, and their customers.

          Just to make the point a wee bit sharper:

          Study Finds Utah Leads Nation in Antidepressant Use
          Medicine: Some point to the pressures of Mormonism, especially for women, to explain the surprising findings.

          Liked by 1 person

      • That’s an interesting take. I suppose under this definition herbal remedies would also qualify. Also surgery with anesthesia.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Actually, I think herbal remedies are supported by the Lord. See Alma 46:40 and D&C 42:43.

          Liked by 1 person

      • At any rate, we should take these questions to the Lord.

        Liked by 1 person

  6. I have actually heard the sorcery = pharmakia etc before. This is actually a regurgitation.

    I have never been on anti depressants but I have many loved ones that are and trust me they tend to babble more when they are off of their meds.
    I think Hollands talk was very good on depression a couple years back. There is nothing wrong with being prescribed medication when necessary. People can assess their own needs. I know that depression and other similar chemical imbalances are very real and have nothing to do with ones righteousness etc. I do know that soon God will heal His people physically, mentally, financially, and spiritually, but until then people should do everything they can to find health and happiness, including medication as they feel impressed.

    Liked by 2 people

    • MinorityOfOne

      Is it possible that there are exterior issues that have cause some of the problems you have mention… like poor diet, food additives, GMO’s etc.

      I found Hollands talk to be counter “Gospel.” Just another acceptance of Babylon remedies, which is the results of lack of faith, belief and miracles. I just don’t envision a pharmacy in Zion do you? Stock up gals before you go.

      Don’t get me wrong… I’m just as guilty as the next guy that has accepted such alternatives for curing my ills. I just think we’re screwed.

      When are we going to admit…. there are many kinds of “Flaxen Cords” that will ultimately bind us.

      Liked by 1 person

  7. Log

    I actually agree with you on the drug issue, I just didn’t relate it to sorcery. Your “source” was very helpful.

    I reluctantly bring up this organization because of possible Pre-conceived ideas about them that may not be true. They are a very misunderstood organization.

    I have two sisters who are Scientologists. They take this stance on drugs.

    “Scientologists do use prescribed medical drugs when physically ill and also rely on the advice and treatment of medical doctors.”

    “Scientologists do not take street drugs or mind-altering psychotropic drugs.” 
They consider drugs cause extremely damaging effects on a person—physically, mentally and spiritually. Specifically, that drugs decrease awareness and hinder abilities. They are a “solution” to some other problem, but ultimately prove an even bigger problem.”

    Mr. Ron Hubbard, the founder said, “If you think psychotropic drugs can be harmful to the body, you should see what it does to the spirit.”

    They have proven that these drugs are a part of a larger plan to intentionally “dumb down” or “incapacitate” humanity for an evil purpose and psychiatry is the vehicle. (Secret combinations)
    The amount of murders and suicides related to these drugs are astounding.

    Wow… your link to the Los Angeles Times article is very interesting. Where has our faith in healing and miracles gone?
    Didn’t mean to get off subject of this thread… but I just wanted clarification on this particular matter. Thanks Log.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Oh, it gets worse.

      These are on anxiety meds.

      http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/overcoming-pain/201410/why-you-are-demented

      http://newoldage.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/09/24/study-links-anxiety-drugs-to-alzheimers-disease/?_php=true&_type=blogs&src=me&_r=0

      http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g5205

      This is on depression.

      http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020392

      In 1965, Joseph Schildkraut put forth the hypothesis that depression was associated with low levels of norepinephrine [6], and later researchers theorized that serotonin was the neurotransmitter of interest [7]. In subsequent years, there were numerous attempts to identify reproducible neurochemical alterations in the nervous systems of patients diagnosed with depression. For instance, researchers compared levels of serotonin metabolites in the cerebrospinal fluid of clinically depressed suicidal patients to controls, but the primary literature is mixed and plagued with methodological difficulties such as very small sample sizes and uncontrolled confounding variables. In a recent review of these studies, the chairman of the German Medical Board and colleagues stated, “Reported associations of subgroups of suicidal behavior (e.g. violent suicide attempts) with low CSF–5HIAA [serotonin] concentrations are likely to represent somewhat premature translations of findings from studies that have flaws in methodology” [8]. Attempts were also made to induce depression by depleting serotonin levels, but these experiments reaped no consistent results [9]. Likewise, researchers found that huge increases in brain serotonin, arrived at by administering high-dose L-tryptophan, were ineffective at relieving depression [10].

      Contemporary neuroscience research has failed to confirm any serotonergic lesion in any mental disorder, and has in fact provided significant counterevidence to the explanation of a simple neurotransmitter deficiency. Modern neuroscience has instead shown that the brain is vastly complex and poorly understood [11]. While neuroscience is a rapidly advancing field, to propose that researchers can objectively identify a “chemical imbalance” at the molecular level is not compatible with the extant science. In fact, there is no scientifically established ideal “chemical balance” of serotonin, let alone an identifiable pathological imbalance. To equate the impressive recent achievements of neuroscience with support for the serotonin hypothesis is a mistake.

      With direct proof of serotonin deficiency in any mental disorder lacking, the claimed efficacy of SSRIs is often cited as indirect support for the serotonin hypothesis. Yet, this ex juvantibusline of reasoning (i.e., reasoning “backwards” to make assumptions about disease causationbased on the response of the disease to a treatment) is logically problematic—the fact that aspirin cures headaches does not prove that headaches are due to low levels of aspirin in the brain. Serotonin researchers from the US National Institute of Mental Health Laboratory of Clinical Science clearly state, “[T]he demonstrated efficacy of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors…cannot be used as primary evidence for serotonergic dysfunction in the pathophysiology of these disorders” [12].

      Translation – there is no evidence that depression is the result of a chemical imbalance.

      This one is along the same lines – just check the abstract.

      http://www.wfsbp.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Treatment_Guidelines/WFSBP_Consensus_Paper_Biological_Markers_in_Depression.pdf

      Abstract

      Biological markers for depression are of great interest to aid in elucidating the causes of major depression. We assess currently available biological markers to query their validity for aiding in the diagnosis of major depression. We specifically focus on neurotrophic factors, serotonergic markers, biochemical markers, immunological markers, neuroimaging, neurophysiological findings, and neuropsychological markers. We delineate the most robust biological markers of major depression. These include decreased platelet imipramine binding, decreased 5-HT1A receptor expression, increase of soluble interleukin-2 receptor and interleukin-6 in serum, decreased brain-derived neurotrophic factor in serum, hypocholesterolemia, low blood folate levels, and impaired suppression of the dexamethasone suppression test. To date, however, none of these markers are sufficiently specific to contribute to the diagnosis of major depression. Thus, with regard to new diagnostic manuals such as DSM-V and ICD-11 which are currently assessing whether biological markers may be included in diagnostic criteria, no biological markers for major depression are currently available for inclusion in the diagnostic criteria.

      Translation: there are no known biological markers for depression. Markers that have been proposed exist without the condition, and the condition exists without the proposed markers. Therefore, there is no chemical test for depression.

      There are others out there. That’s why I’m calling BS on this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2755687/Blood-test-depression-speed-treatment-unveiled-scientists-discover-spike-certain-chemicals-bouts-severe-gloominess.html

      I have observed that “depression” can be associated with abusing yourself, or being abused. If you’re not happy, do something different, or get out of the bad situation.

      Moroni 10:22
      22 And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity.

      Liked by 1 person

      • It’s all about the desire for money and absolution without repentance: http://chriskresser.com/the-chemical-imbalance-myth

        Liked by 1 person

        • If any are curious, this happens to be a topic of intense personal interest to me. The bottom line is that the only actual cause of depression that I know of happens to be abuse – either you’re forcing yourself to do things you hate, or someone else is coercing you into things you hate.

          Enos
          1 Behold, it came to pass that I, Enos, knowing my father that he was a just man—for he taught me in his language, and also in the nurture and admonition of the Lord—and blessed be the name of my God for it—

          2 And I will tell you of the wrestle which I had before God, before I received a remission of my sins.

          3 Behold, I went to hunt beasts in the forests; and the words which I had often heard my father speak concerning eternal life, and the joy of the saints, sunk deep into my heart.

          4 And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul; and all the day long did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it reached the heavens.

          5 And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.

          6 And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.

          7 And I said: Lord, how is it done?

          8 And he said unto me: Because of thy faith in Christ, whom thou hast never before heard nor seen. And many years pass away before he shall manifest himself in the flesh; wherefore, go to, thy faith hath made thee whole.

          There is an object lesson there, and a promise.

          Liked by 1 person

    • Log, you’ve been accused of being a SCMC mole, a sock puppet for Denver Snuffer…I’ll add one more: Are you Tom Cruise or John Travolta?

      Liked by 1 person

      • I feel a need… a need for speed!

        Liked by 1 person

        • Take me to bed or lose me forever.

          Liked by 1 person

  8. Kathryn

    Yes it is possible. I just think it is not a good idea to judge anyone based on any medication they do or do not take. I agree in the ulterior motives of pharmaceutical companies etc. but I do not know what trials some are given by God that I cannot understand, and therefore leave it between them and God on what the treatment should be.

    In the scriptures we learn of herbs and things that were used to rememedy illnesses. We could take this argument to antibiotics, insulin, and every medication.

    Anyway we know that not everyone has faith to be healed, and we have to acknowledge that some people have illnesses that God has placed upon them that are not meant to be healed as they could be a “thorn in the flesh” or a trial for the individual.

    This argument is almost pointless but there are readers on this blog that may feel defenseless and they need defense. Often I have seen people judge others for these issues and then God humbles them and they end up on medication so they can understand for themselves. So I am just saying it may be wise to be careful how we throw these ideas around. We cannot set ourselves up above others that we think lack faith to be healed etc, God may prove that some of them have greater faith than all of those who judged them wrongfully. I believe God will reveal the might and faith that lies dormant in some of the homeless drug addicts soon and they will become a stumbling block for many who consider themselves righteous. The poor and the outcasts often accept a new dispensation before the rich and the noble.

    Liked by 1 person

    • It’s not good to judge anyone based on much of anything.

      Liked by 1 person

    • If I may interject here, I personally have had occasional issues with depression, but much more frequent episodes of anxiety. A naturopath suggested I take B6, methyl B12, and methyl folate. After a short while of doing so, my anxiety has almost disappeared and depression has become very infrequent. As an added bonus by RLS has significantly diminished as well. Hopefully that helps someone out there.

      Liked by 1 person

  9. 26 And it came to pass that I, Jacob, began to be old; and the record of this people being kept on the aother plates of Nephi, wherefore, I conclude this record, declaring that I have written according to the best of my knowledge, by saying that the time passed away with us, and also our blives passed away like as it were unto us a cdream, we being a dlonesome and a solemn people, ewanderers, cast out from Jerusalem, born in tribulation, in a wilderness, and hated of our brethren, which caused wars and contentions; wherefore, we did mourn out our days.

    Sounds like this could be equated to “depression” in every sense of the word.

    Often in the scriptures prophets speak of the suffering in spirit that one goes through who takes up the cross. Some people I believe have clinical depression and they have joy in The Lord. I think they are not necessarily opposing one another.

    At any rate, I do not judge anyone that has depression to necessarily be a victim of “abuse”.

    According to your statements above LOG, nothing you have to say holds water unless you can say you know these things of yourself. If you tell me you know what you have written is a truth from God, if you know this by revelation, I will consider it and pray about it, otherwise I will just have to pass over your regurgitations and quotations from others.

    Liked by 2 people

    • I quoted science establishing that there is no known “chemical imbalance” which causes depression.

      I quoted scripture which establishes despair comes because of iniquity, and that the saints have joy.

      I can read between the lines pretty adroitly; as I said, I am used to passive-aggressive sniping.

      I’m curious why you don’t pray about it anyways – but I understand because sometimes, when I have a vested interest in one side or another of a question, I tend not to want ask of God because I don’t really want the answer; instead, I want to be right.

      I am trying to get over that.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Oh, silly me. The other side of the coin.

        http://consumer.healthday.com/encyclopedia/depression-12/depression-news-176/depression-and-verbal-abuse-645007.html

        Ongoing, repeated verbal attacks meted out by an intimate, or by someone in a position of authority, can drastically affect self-esteem, give rise to enormous anxiety and periods of confusion, and even lead to clinical depression in susceptible individuals.

        Oh, heck. Just look for yourselves.

        Liked by 1 person

      • You were the one who admitted the vested interest and you said it was intensely personal. You used the teaching that sorcery is equated to pharmaceuticals. That teaching did not come from yourself. I do not have a vested interest because I do not have depression or any other similar condition so I have never thought to pray about such a thing.

        All I know is that casting judgement without revelation is wrong. So let me know when you have “skin in the game” on this issue, and then I will hear you out. I don’t trust scientists because I could waste time looking up many articles where scientists have proven depression and bipolar, schizophrenia, add, blah blah blah all to be real medical conditions and you know it. Again wasting time with other men’s words. Again if you can claim God told you anything concerning this matter let me know.
        I consider you a friend and am not attacking you or being “aggressive”. I am taking what you have written and presenting opposing ideas. Plain and simple. Is any opposition to what you believe contentious or aggressive? We can disagree with peace and love in our hearts. Do not take it personal if I don’t simply believe anything you write, I don’t simply believe anything anyone says except for God anymore.

        Like

        • A correction: “Personal interest” = curiosity and desire to know truth.

          Another correction: “Vested interest” = I wanna be right because I have friends or family who I believe myself to be defending somehow by taking this position.

          I don’t have a vested interest, even if I have a personal interest.

          Another correction: the word translated “sorcery” means “drug use and administration.” I am literally flabbergasted that this was made an issue of.

          You are admitting to opposing me, but disclaiming aggression. You say you don’t trust science, but you made a scientific claim, therefore you don’t have to substantiate your claims? I don’t get it.

          Why did you even enter this discussion?

          Like

        • Indeed, MoO, the pattern I have observed is that you typically enter into discussions with, or around, me, in opposition to my viewpoints as you apparently perceive them – at least, nobody else says what you say you are talking about, therefore the direct implication is you are passively-aggressively sniping at me.

          This is consistent enough where I find it difficult to believe your protestation of “peace and love” in your heart.

          So, if you have nothing relevant to say about what I’m talking about except to oppose it without evidence or analysis, why then do you open your mouth?

          Like

        • I don’t see any judgement here.

          Like

      • Wow that was awesome Log. I didn’t know that could be done. An animated link. very cool

        Like

  10. I had a vision, where a man in a red robe told me that the revelations that are being told lately by different people, including the 7 women one are just for those people and don’t not apply to me. I did the handshake test, follow by a fist bump and to triple check I asked for a chest bump too. I felt them all.

    I thought I should tell everyone.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Well, I thought it was funny.

      Like

  11. Log, Kathryn, Minorityofone: I love each of you and appreciate your comments. How did we get onto the subject of drugs? Whatever. I want to join in. I agree with Log about disastrous side-effects of psychotropic drugs. I love what Kathryn brought up about L. Ron and Scientology. I have a lot of respect for the Scientologists I know. Some of the big name movers and shakers in Hollywood are our clients.

    I don’t know if you remember my experience from Feb 2013 when I woke up at 2am in the presence of two evil spirits in my home. I won’t rehash the details. The emergency room visits, the MRI’s, the follow up visits with medical specialists, including neurologists, psychologists, psychiatrists and cardiologists have not brought relief to the constant migraines I have suffered since that night I felt I was going to die.

    I got off the anti-anxiety and anti-depression medicines as soon as I could. I noticed the Paxil in particular gave me weird dreams. The only drug I have not been able to eliminate is the Tylenol with Tramadol. Some days I have to take one morning, noon and night. Even after twenty months of pondering and praying about what causes the pain, I have yet to discover if it is a chemical / hormonal imbalance or what.

    I have a chiropractor friend who claims migraines are caused by the misalignment of the neck vertebrae. I have tried and prayed about that. I have wondered if it’s related to the close work I do with the computer. I have spent over thirty-five years in IT support. Every day is spent on the computer almost all day. Then what do I do when I come home at night? You guessed it. I work on the computer for hours. Eye-strain?

    As far as I know I don’t suffer from depression, OCD or anxiety any more than the next person. But twenty months of constant migraines is a real pain. It’s not something I choose or want. It just is. Perhaps its a normal effect of aging. My prayers have only brought me the idea that Paul had a thorn in the side. Perhaps these migraines are mine. I don’t care about being right. I just care about feeling better, thus the meds.

    I’ve visited healers of multiple modalities. I am open to non-traditional, non-western medicine and have experienced psychological relief through visiting several alternative healers, but not physical relief. So I take a low dose of pain medicine every day, live with moderate pain and continue to pray for inspiration as to what could be the cause. If it’s physical, spiritual or a combination of both. Life goes on. So do I.

    Thank you each for your comments on the subject. God bless.

    Like

    • I don’t know how we got on the subject. I love you guys as well. I sympathize with you because I get migraines frequently and try to just hit them with excedrin before they get too bad.

      This time of existence is tough because just about everything anyone eats has preservatives, chemicals, toxins and who knows what else. I understand people who try to go all organic. My take is to trust that God can take care of all of this. One scripture that could be applied to this whole discussion is that “it is not that which goeth into the mouth, but that which cometh out of the mouth that defileth a man” (sorry if I misquoted it was from memory).
      Everyone puts harmful substances into their bodies from day to day. Our bodies are simply full of corruption until we are changed, and everyone wars against the flesh like Paul taught. Though I disagree often and I am vocal about it, which I hope we all think is ok, I do love everyone and pray the best for you all. God bless

      Liked by 1 person

    • Hey Tim, you might want to consider your diet. I happen to know a number of individuals who, when faced with repeated migraines over a period of time, found relief through getting rid of inflammation related foods (wheat, dairy, sugar). I know, that’s a big thing to tackle…three items that find themselves in a majority of our foods.

      Some have found that not only going off of these foods, but going on a radically cleansing diet of green juice/raw food, is the only thing, after years of different medical attempts, that finally relieves them of their migraines.

      You might consider spending an evening with Carol watching Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead. It will take you through a man’s 60 day journey of juice fasting (and in this case he’s actually juicing the carrots and celery and stuff himself, and not buying some prepackaged thing), and how it relieved him of what had been a thorn in his side.

      My wife had a much less severe physical problem that no medical treatment over 10 years could relieve, but disappeared within 10 days of a juice fast and raw food cleanse. And it has not since returned, though we do not remain 100% raw, or vegan, nor do we juice every day. But we did make a 30 day effort.

      I wish you the best. Migraines certainly are a terrible burden, and I hope that you can be relieved of them. Perhaps what I’ve felt to write to you is inspired of the Lord as a means for giving you the relief you request. I hope that whether it is through me, someone else, or God, you find what you are seeking soon.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Don’t know how I missed this earlier, dk. I’m going to do it. I believe you were inspired because I feel excited by the idea as I think about it. I have never done a juice fast or cleanse of any kind.

        This will be new. It gives me some hope. Isn’t it true that we can feel the spirit better when we feel better physically? I don’t know the source for that, but I know I’ve read it somewhere. Thanks so much.

        Like

    • Tim,
      Have you read Conquering Spiritual Evil? I want to say you have reviewed it but can’t remember. Could it possibly be a device. Or something like it?

      Liked by 1 person

      • Doug is coming to Southern California next month. I’m attending one of his two-day seminars. I’ve thought it could indeed be something like that. I’ll bet Denise could tell me. I thought someone had placed a curse upon me, but have since concluded it was simply coming in contact with the evil spirits, specifically within my own aura (weird).

        And yes, I reviewed Doug’s book here:

        https://latterdaycommentary.com/2012/09/10/conquering-spiritual-evil/

        For those who don’t know the story of what happened, you can read it here:

        http://3tcm.net/MyExperienceInDealingWithUncleanSpirits.pdf

        Like

        • I’m a bit jealous. I’ve wanted to attend one of those for a long time now.

          I just remembered that I used to get migraines all the time. I got rid of them by cleaning up my diet a bit but I noticed a significant difference when I eliminated artificial sweeteners completely. My diet changes now and then but I will not have artificial sweeteners ever again. I haven’t had a migraine since.

          I still think the demons and the migraines have a connection though. It’s the timing of it all.

          I hope you do a blog post about Doug’s workshop. I still have so many questions I want answered. Too much of that hits close to home.

          Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Tim,
      My wife experiences frequent migraines as well. She notices they often coincide with chemtrailling.

      In any case, she found taking feverfew and butterbur together helped greatly. It’s something you have to take for a few weeks to build up in your system as a preventive, rather than a quick cessation of symptoms. Also make sure you’re getting enough magnesium and water. Hang in there. Love your blog.

      Liked by 1 person

  12. Log

    You are funny. Love you my friend. I have never “opposed you”. But I often disagree with what you say.
    I am learning that I should not enter discussions with you. So I won’t do it anymore. I have no issue with you. I hope you are continually full of joy in God. Good night

    Liked by 1 person

  13. I have another theory about what causes depression. Robin Williams is a case in point. See here: http://www.goodfight.org/a_v_williams_robin.html

    Liked by 1 person

    • Against scientific claims, I present science.

      In the religious realm, however, there is something to that.

      Mosiah 3:6
      6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.

      Moroni 10:22
      22 And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity.

      2 Nephi 2
      28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

      29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Daren. Thank you for providing that link. It makes a lot of sense and was very helpful. The adversary is certainly opposed to people wanting to turn to the Prince of Peace for comfort in this world where so many do not believe in the existence of evil spirits. They are real enough.

      Like

  14. I just feel like i’ve entered the Twilight Zone.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Bret… (music… nu nu nu nu…. nu nu nu nu….) You have… We have a good time here. Discussion can become pretty heavy… but we love each other. Welcome aboard.

      Liked by 1 person

    • We’re all just here to learn how to better serve man.

      Liked by 1 person

      • I like my man rare, with garlic and sage. Get hoppin’.

        Like

      • Better than marsh-wiggle.

        Like

  15. Hi all….

    Sorry to have taken the original premise of the discussion toward drugs. I just want a further explanation about Sorcery that Log mentioned.

    I think we can all agree we are in a fix. And who am I to judge why a person is in pain or depressed. All one wants is relief. But
    a long term dependence of any drug, for what ever reason, is setting one up for disaster when the drugs (medication) are no longer available. Sounds like Satan’s plan to me. (Flaxen bands are tightening.)

    We are in a physical universe and bad things happen to our bodies and minds… for what ever reason. My daughter is suffering from Brominate poisoning from drinking Mt. Dew. Brominate (which is a flame retardant that give Mt. Dew its lime-green hue) and is linked to Thyroid malfunction, depression and cancer. Who would have ever guessed. She is now on a costly natural path for curing this problem, or at least getting relief.

    This is one of the reasons that I would love to have “Zion” established quickly because a society, for what ever reason, already riddled with drug and prescription drug use is not going to diminish. We cannot discount the amount of money that is being made by those who come up with all kinds of ills and phychosis that are not real.

    In the meantime… all we can do is what we are doing and pray Zion comes quickly and prepare ourselves to be there.

    Tim, I hope you can get to the bottom of your headaches. My sister also suffers and it’s a problem that is not easy to get to the bottom of.

    Love you all.

    Liked by 1 person

  16. I repent… I’m taking the discussion back to the original premise.

    Keith Henderson’s letter is pretty strong. I wonder how Denver feels about being the “fall guy” for such strong declarations. In other words, would Keith have come up with the same conclusions himself by just reading the scriptures? My concern is that too many people are depending upon Denver and his guidance through the scriptures. I, being one of them. Seems like trading apples for apples.

    Personally, I’m going back to square one and reading the Book of Mormon absent of any previous paradigm as suggested by Denver and
    Adrian Larson. I’m gaining so much.

    I’m trying to shed my dependence on any Man…. from in the Church or out of the Church. So for the time being… my study is very personal as I seek the Lord’s counsel.

    Have to admit…it’s been pretty hard to put Bret’s book aside… but I will until I complete the Book of Mormon. I’ve been on my quest for a few days and I’m in the middle of Mosiah.

    All of us are are individual paths with the same goal in mind. It’s so good to be among friends.

    Onward and upward toward Zion.

    Liked by 2 people

  17. Log, the pertinent quotes from your first post are below.

    “When someone pitches interpretations at me, I reject him, because I am able of myself to generate infinite interpretations, and I prefer mine to anyone’s.”

    “So, if someone is going to accuse someone else of seeking deep to hide their counsels, or of hearkening to the voice of the adversary in what they have done, I want to know how he knoweth the thoughts and intents of their hearts. If he is unwilling to testify “Thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me, saying…” then why would I listen to another freelancer? There are many blogs on Tim’s blogroll with breathtakingly presumptuous names to which I can go and get my fill of regurgitated Snuffer coupled with unjustified accusations and preachments to the LDS people and leadership decrying “our” sins, saying “we” need repentance.”

    I don’t see how what you wrote above applies to what Keith Henderson wrote. His article discusses his disagreements with Church policies and changes to doctrine over the years. He made a “by their fruits ye shall know them” judgment that the Church seeks deep to hide their counsels, etc. This is based on hiding financial data, changing ordinances and scriptures without common consent, etc. You imply that this is an unjustified accusation and would only be justified by receiving a revelation from the Lord revealing the hearts of the leaders of the Church. Yet, Christ told us we could know them by their fruits. So, I don’t understand how it is unjustified.

    You then pointed me to your previous post called “What Manner of Men” which speaks of evil-speaking, slander, defamation, malice, backbiting, etc. I don’t see where Keith Henderson did any of those things in his article. He merely stated his disagreements and explained why he disagrees.

    From your first post and your article that you linked to, you’ve implied that Keith’s words are accusatory, malicious, and unjustified. I don’t see where you’re getting that from.

    Like

    • Whenever someone says “implied” about me, that means “you didn’t actually say that but I think you meant that.”

      Greg Smith adopted the same tactic towards PtHG – he justified himself by citing what he termed “rhetorical intent.”

      I only said what I said, not what anyone thinks I said.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Incidentally, Daren, and this may determine how I approach you from hereon out, do you know what it looks like, in writing, when someone makes the unwarranted leap from outward appearances to claims of the actor’s inward motivations?

      If you do, can you please describe it? Do you see any examples of it in Keith’s letter? Can you cite them?

      If not, why not?

      Can you identify other examples of this leap from elsewhere?

      Like

      • You are right, you never actually directly state that Keith’s words were accusatory malicious, or unjustified. You only reference how you feel when anyone writes such things. However, being that it was a comment on the article above, it’s not unwarranted to assume that you are referring to said article.

        I believe someone making “the unwarranted leap from outward appearances to claims of the actor’s inward motivations” would look something like: You did A, B, and C, therefore you must be a [fill in the blank].”

        One possible example from Keith’s article is quoted below:

        “Into the darkness that prevails in the minds of men who instigate or authorize changes to the ordinances, enters the devil with such arguments as: “Why do it that way? It really doesn’t matter or mean anything. It is arcane and outdated. It really doesn’t matter as long as you continue to have faith in Christ.” [That particular lie is very effective because it allows the person to presume they have faith, when in fact they haven’t faith sufficient to obey Christ].” Continuing on with the lies: “People will get more out of the changes if we make them. Our numbers will increase. What we change isn’t important anyway. If it were important, we would know that, and since it doesn’t seem important to us, and because our polling data shows it is not important to those who attend, it must, in fact, not be important. Change is proof that God is still leading us.” …And other such arguments and persuasions from our adversary. And all that has happened by making changes to the ordinances is we have been cheated out of God’s gift to us, and we have been carefully led down to hell. I want no part of this anymore, either. Others are free to choose their own course.”

        But, to paraphrase what you wrote, “He only said what he said, not what anyone thinks he said.” Nowhere does he actually accuse anyone directly. He only play-acts what someone might say who feels justified in authorizing changes in ordinances. Being that changing of ordinances is forbidden by the Lord, it is safe to assume that the motivation to do such comes from the devil. Therefore, what was unwarranted?

        “this may determine how I approach you from hereon out”. What’s that supposed to mean?

        Liked by 1 person

        • It is supposed to mean that if you are an unjust judge, then I shall deal with you as I do other accusers – by reference to scripture or other authoritative sources only, making sure all my claims are documented.

          Or, more simply, not talk to you at all.

          Because I get tired of having to do the “ironclad post or comment” routine. I get tired of accusations.

          You skipped over providing an actual example of unwarranted leap from outward appearances to inward motivations in Keith’s letter; there is at least one, if we assume that Keith means what he said, which is an assumption I make. Either you do not recognize such things, or you do. Which is it?

          Like

  18. “By their fruits shall ye know them” does not necessarily mean “by the things they do shall ye know them.”

    Nephi would be condemned by that standard – he was a murderer, a thief, and a liar, to all outward appearances.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Consider more fully a favorite of modern accusers.

      2 Nephi 26:29
      29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

      To be guilty of priestcraft, a man must
      1. Set HIMSELF UP for a light unto the world, so that…
      2. He may get gain AND praise of the wicked, and…
      3. Seek not the welfare of Zion.

      Many accusers like to apply this against the Brethren.

      Problem – they didn’t call THEMSELVES to their positions. But let’s assume they did.

      Then they have to have AS THEIR INTENT obtaining gain and the praise of the wicked – but who knows their intents?

      And they have to not seek, or work for, the welfare of Zion. But again, who knows their intents? Maybe they are, to a man, working for the welfare of Zion as they understand it.

      So, this definition CANNOT be externally applied – it is, like almost all of the commandments, for internal application only.

      Liked by 1 person

  19. I will speak in support of Bro. Henderson…because the Lord has revealed to me much of what he stated in his post. Aprx a week before Denver made his statement in Mesa (in wh. some thought he was equating himself to Joseph Smith) the Lord warned me that those who speak against either of the Lord’s annointed Prophets of the past 200 years are indeed speaking evil of the Lord’s anointed, wh. is a very serious matter, and one wh. is guarded by covenants made in the temple. I posted that warning on this blog aprx a week before I went to Mesa and heard Denver mention the same warning.
    It is a shame that there are those who seek to intimidate and smother participation in these discussions with their voluminous use of scriptures wh. are carefully chosen to support their personal opinions.
    Scriptures are wonderful, if used to enlighten and educate. However, as with any resource, they can be used for personal gratification and pride.
    Second Nephi 32:1-6 documents clearly the true source we should seek in gaining understanding of the Doctrine of Christ, and how we are to come to all true knowledge, “For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.” (Verse 5)
    And also: “Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I say unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do”. (Verse 3)
    And this: “And now, behold my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way . But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts? Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?” (Verse 1 &2)
    And at last: “Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.” (Verse 4)
    James Russell Uhl

    Liked by 1 person

    • I am going to be plain of speech, James.

      Personal revelation is never to be used as a club. Such is not the way of God. Such is the way of the accuser.

      [A] woman near the same place, professed to have the discerning spirits, and began to accuse another sister of things that she was not guilty of, which she said she knew was so by the spirit, but was afterwards proven to be false; she placed herself in the capacity of the “accuser of the brethren,” and no person through the discerning of spirits can bring a charge against another, they must be proven guilty by positive evidence, or they stand clear.

      Nobody is to be accused based solely on revelation, said Joseph. Positive evidence – something existing in the world outside one’s head and heart – is required or else the accused is to be found innocent. They who fall short of this standard stand in the role of the “accuser of the brethren.”

      It is not evil speaking to note that in accusing someone of sins of the heart and mind – but refusing to produce positive evidence of such (which can only be the words of the accused) – one is an accuser of the brethren. In this case, literally.

      So, when you say someone uses scripture to establish personal opinion, but you don’t name who, and you don’t cite the alleged personal opinion – indeed, you don’t even deign to mention whether this opinion conforms to the word of God or whether it is contrary to it – then which role do you fulfill?

      When you allege a mysterious someone is using scriptures to gratify themselves and their pride, which is a twofold accusation, and you don’t name them nor mark the offending teaching, which role do you fulfill?

      In making the charge of evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed, without naming the malefactor nor bearing witness to the evil spoken – which role do you fulfill?

      Why the coy passive-aggressive sniping? Are people truly so insecure in their spiritual standing before God that whenever someone doesn’t cheer for accusers who happen to agree with one’s personal revelations that those who point out that the requirements of justice have not been met must be chided and lectured but only with such timidity that nobody dares mention the name of contrarians, nor showing where these malefactors have gotten it wrong?

      Does anyone suppose Zion shall be peopled by accusers?

      Like

      • And how does such passive-aggressive sniping constitute an improvement over the behavior of recent “courts of love” wherein the errors of the accused are not elucidated before the headsman’s axe comes down?

        Why is it that so many are willing to accuse by saying this or that person falls afoul D&C 121, but fail to recognize where they, themselves, fall afoul of D&C 121?

        D&C 121
        34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

        Many are called of God to be his high priests – but few make the grade and conform to the requirements. How do they fail?

        35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

        The things of this world and the honors of men can be property, money, power, authority, and so forth – but it can also be as light as wanting to fit in. Joseph had to withhold direct knowledge of the plates until God gave unto him to have additional witnesses. Suppose Joseph had showed the plates before then – do you suppose Joseph would still have been chosen?

        36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

        The rights of the priesthood is to have angels minister, and to enter into the divine council. Apparently, the powers of heaven won’t do crap except the one doing the asking is doing so according to the principles of righteousness. What are those? Keep reading.

        37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

        So, covering our sins is one way to irritate the heavens. Gratifying our pride – seeking to establish that we’re better than everyone and everyone else must agree with us or else! – irritates the heavens. Vain ambition – the desire to attain a higher status among men, like, say, fitting in! – irritates the heavens. Exercising control – you have to believe my revelation or you’re evil-speaking! – irritates the heavens. Exercising dominion – my will, not your will, shall be done! – irritates the heavens. Compulsion – you must do and believe what I say, or else! – irritates the heavens. Any degree of unrighteousness irritates the heavens and thus your window of opportunity to be ministered to by angels and enter the divine council ends.

        38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

        And before you know it, in darkness, lacking the Spirit of God, such characters seek to salve their consciences by doing God a service and combating error among those who have no errors – the saints, and God. It’s ironic, actually, and sad.

        39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

        I know this is typically taken as priesthood, but consider a more broad condition – it can be as soon as they get a little revelatory knowledge, as they suppose, that they will immediately begin persecuting those who do not believe according to their own will and pleasure.

        40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

        Because what follows is how true priests must conduct themselves.

        41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

        Priesthood (and revelatory knowledge) cannot be used for power or influence. The only tools you get, you who style yourselves priests or visionaries, are these: persuasion. Long-suffering – you get to suffer abuse, and you have to take it without reviling. Gentleness – you don’t get to smite someone or accuse. Meekness – not seeking to avenge wrongs committed against you. Love unfeigned – none of that fake smile and “hi, howareya” we see at church. The real deal, borne to the heart by the Spirit.

        42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

        Kindness! That familial feeling which characterizes our interactions with our siblings and parents. Pure knowledge – you don’t enforce your opinions or suppositions, and only speak of what you know. These things will expand your soul, but watch out for guile, which can make its appearance through coy passive-aggresivity.

        43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

        Reproving with sharpness, or forthright boldness, when the Spirit directs, and then afterwards showing that you didn’t do it because you were establishing yourself over your target to gratify your pride.

        44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

        Speaks for itself.

        45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

        This is what is lacking. Charity bypasses the sins of others in silence. The household of faith – those who are of the kingdom of God, or striving to so be, whether in or out of the Church. Charity doesn’t accuse others of sins of the heart or mind.

        Charity is like this. “[C]harity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.”

        Thinks no evil – does not attribute evil motivations to others. Believes all things – is not untrusting. Is not puffed up.

        Let virtue garnish thy thoughts – speaking in practical matters, cast every thought up unto God, let Christ inform every thought, pray always, ponder things quietly, judge justly. Then you will have the necessary confidence to enter into the presence of God, and the doctrine of the priesthood shall be impressed upon your heart and soul, and you will find out what it really is all about for yourself.

        46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

        The Holy Ghost shall be the priest’s constant companion. He rules, which means teaches and serves, in righteousness and truth, forever, without compulsory means.

        Without compulsory means!

        Passive-aggressive sniping is out! Blowing opinions out your butt is out! Using revelation as a club is out!

        Don’t perform anything unto God except you first pray that your performance shall be for the welfare of your soul! Make sure you are right before God before you seek to right men.

        Liked by 1 person

        • Log, on October 20, 2014 at 5:41 am (comment)
          Log, Thank you for this wonderful,wonderful lesson. I am grateful that we can all share with each other here. I find constant joy lately in being corrected by his (Christs) spirit. Where there are 2 or more gathered in his name. It is a great congregation here at Tim’s’ place. Dave

          Liked by 1 person

  20. Log,
    Let me be clear. Your tone is unpleasant and you appear to be accusing me of wrong doing when I simply expressed an opinion and then bore testimony to what I know to be true. You appear to have taken over Bro. Malone’s blog since no one can post their thoughts without either agreeing with you or contending with you. Perhaps you should open your own blog where people can go who wish to engage with you?
    JRU

    Liked by 1 person

    • James,

      I’m sorry if you find my tone unpleasant. Please help me to improve my tone by showing me how I can express my feelings without being unpleasant to you. I, too, find certain things unpleasant, among them accusations, whether against me or others. And I am not shy about stating this.

      I appreciate you are asking me to go away forever. I hope you can appreciate that I can make the same request of others who disagree with me, such as yourself.

      Thus far, I have spoken mostly when spoken to or about. If you truly find me unpleasant, and would prefer not to interact with me, please desist from speaking to or about me.

      And please, don’t think to escape my notice by only obliquely referring to something I’ve said and thereby disclaim the fact that you’re actually talking to or about me or something I’ve said. When only one person takes a certain position, and that position is disparaged, it’s pretty obvious who’s being referred to.

      Be bold, not coy.

      Liked by 1 person

  21. Gentlemen, Gentlemen, please take off the gloves.

    There is no one here that is not fallible either in interpretation of scripture, not hearing the word of the Lord clearly or misunderstanding one another.

    Most of what we post here really comes from our own “point of view” or our own personal experience…. both of which may not exhibit the truth. If it did… humanity would not be in the mess we are in.

    The members of the Church are not exempt from such weakness… and the invitation on this blog welcomes different points of view and interpretation with the the intent to open our minds to seeing things from different perspectives, that we might get new understanding of the things which are discussed.

    It should be okay to disagree, even with boldness with each other without having to “tippy toe” around. So what… you call me wrong!
    There is no reason correction cannot be made without being overly sensitive. (a weakness that seem to be common among women… heaven help you poor guys that have to deal with us.)

    Fortunately, I have not been afflicted by that malady… as most of the time I don’t give a crap. Cause… “I’m right… ya know.”

    Under-tones, over-tones or whatever should not be reason to assume all commentary is not of value. Even disagreement can be edifying.

    Log… I appreciate your desire to defending unpleasantness that may come my way… but I’m a tough cookie and can defend myself. And you are right, perhaps we should be more direct when disagreeing with a particular person…which I intend to do in the future.

    Put on the armor of “Good Will” and let’s get on with it.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Kathryn,

      It’s quite alright. Tim has let me know that James is not the only person who has a problem with me and that I am a hindrance to his online community.

      Which wasn’t my intent. At all.

      So… see ya’s. 🙂

      Log

      Liked by 1 person

      • Log, If you leave here I will be pissed. I wont be coy. ha ha. I would walk a 100 miles in the Desert to here Nephi teach. So I’d give you at least a mile or two :0)
        Certainly I can say this Boldly with out disparaging others or having to excuse myself. Please stay, Dave

        Liked by 1 person

        • Well, I may make posts but for the community’s sake I probably should stop commenting.

          If I post, I won’t be commenting or responding to the comments – it’ll be a Log pinata.

          Liked by 1 person

        • Ditto.

          Liked by 1 person

      • Thank you Log. Everyone is welcome to contribute here. I treasure the friendships of many thousands of readers over the years. I don’t want anyone to feel intimidated or unsafe.

        Direct statements for clarification are obviously sometimes needed. And Log, boy, do you know how to be direct 🙂 I love you Bro and look forward to your continued thoughts shared here at LDC.

        Like

        • Log

          No doubt those who have had disagreements with you have nothing but love in their hearts for you. Some great spirits are fiery and rub others the wrong way, but they cause others to question and reflect, and ultimately grow from their interactions.
          I have nothing but gratitude for our interactions, and want you to know I respect you, and know just a little of your love for God and how He has saved you and brought you to your standing with Him.
          Zion will not be built by clones, and every part of the body will eventually see the need for the others and even appreciate them.

          Liked by 1 person

  22. Well, this post certainly degenerated in a hurry. I will await your next, Tim, to try to add something meaningful. I can’t get my brain wrapped around where anyone was going with this one. Log: lighten up; you and several other posters here seem to take yourselves very seriously. It’s just a blog afterall. Best.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Suzie

    Thanks for your comments. I remember hearing something similar to what you had heard around 2012. I can’t say that I know one way or another about that but it very well could be correlated.
    I think if each of us knew how many people were being prepared around the world and how things are transpiring on the other side of the veil we would all shout for joy at the mighty work that has begun. People in other religions are being worked with. A massive amount of people are coming unto Christ in Africa and Iran even under threat of their lives, and the marvelous work and wonder has hardly begun.

    Liked by 1 person

  24. Tim

    I have been told by the Spirit that Denver has keys as well.

    As regarding my testimony I will share what is pertinent to your question about how I have learned to hear and recognize the spirit.
    I tend to agree with some commenters that each of us needs to learn to recognize how God speaks to us individually.
    I have never shared this experience with more than my family members and a couple of friends, and this is only something that happened that is in response to the spirit, so it is a portion of my testimony.
    When I was a teenager I hit a low point in my life, I had a family life that was less than ideal, and church was a time where I saw my dad act in hypocrisy every week. Still I felt the LDS church had truth. For whatever reason, during a low point in life, I turned to God with everything in me. I studied the scriptures daily and looked forward to reading each night until I had to sleep. I remember all I could think of was when I could be alone to pray and study and I pondered continually on the gospel.
    Each day I was filled with light. I walked with peace in my heart everywhere I went and I remember times when people would speak in anger or ridicule and it couldn’t phase me. I felt all that mattered in the world was my relationship with God. I began having what I would call heavenly conversations with myself. I would pray to God and then a voice in my mind would speak back while I felt extreme peace and assurance. I remember feeling like my soul was full of light and I could even see light through my eyelids as I prayed in a dark room. (No doubt many of you have had this experience).

    At any rate during this period of spritual development I read of angelic ministrations in the scriptures and the promise that one could receive a perfect knowledge. I felt I had a sure testimony and didn’t know how one could “know” any more than I felt I did, but I began praying multiple times a day for this perfect knowledge promised, while still praying in gratitude for all of the other things I was accustomed to.
    After months of praying in this manner, and after having spiritual experiences with what I had thought was the Holy Ghost, I received an impression while praying that satan would attack me. That night he did. It was intense. A couple of brothers have me a blessing and we all felt the presence of the adversary very tangibly. Without going into detail i will just say he was eventually cast out.

    The next day I was talking with one of the brothers who gave me a blessing the night before, and we were in and out of conversation with a group of 4 or 5 other people in the room.

    While speaking with this brother, I made a comment about how amazing it was that if one husband and wife were exalted, an infinite amount of seed and creation would follow. I marveled at the idea. I marveled in such a way that I cannot describe. It was as if my mind could grasp in a small way the power of God and that we could become like Him through the atonement. The same light that I felt before began to fill my soul from the inside out, and I felt my spirit expanding in pure joy indescribable.

    During this expanding feeling I looked down to a ball point pen I was holding. It was as if I understood every particle in that pen and I was one with it. Then I tilted my head to the left and the pen bent to the left as well. Manipulating the elements with the power of God that was upon me seemed as natural as anything.
    Right after this my spirit left my body and I felt a lifting feeling and instantly I stood above the earth, just outside of the atmosphere. A person stood beside me and spoke to me as I marveled looking down at the earth.
    As I looked I seemed to be aware of every particle in the earth and I understood it! Then I began to see the inhabitants of the earth from the beginning and as they passed before my eyes I understood them all and I knew of the love of God for His/Her children.
    After this I was shown and told some other things, some things I was told I would not remember but I would have the opportunity to remember at a later time when needed.
    After I time I felt a downward pulling motion and found myself back in my body. I cannot describe the joy I felt. I smiled as everyone stared at me and I don’t think I stopped smiling for weeks. The person I was in direct conversation with was the only one in the room besides me who witnessed the pen bending. I remember I thought it was funny because it scared him and he didn’t understand it.
    So this experience was wonderful, I woke each morning (and still do) with God on my mind and gratitude in my heart, but this was not the best thing that happened that day, soon after someone said something about the gospel and a power swept through me from my head to my toe. Many reading this know what I am talking about.
    It cannot just be called a warmth, or goosebumps, or the warm fuzzies, it was a glory that went through my system and was as tangible as water. I looked around the room and expected everyone to stand up and praise God at the power in the room until I realized I was the only one that felt it.
    This same experience began to happen quite frequently and slowly I learned that it was the Holy Ghost. Soon I learned that (for me) this was the only voice I could trust in. I learned that the light and peace I had experienced before was not the Holy Ghost, but it was definitely a divine influence.
    For me the more I understood that I ought to only trust in this Spirit and nothing else, the more it came. Now this power is accompanied with a voice in my mind each time I receive a revelation (unless it is confirming someone else’s words).
    I believe most commenters have had similar and even greater experiences, but this is my own experience of learning what the Holy Ghost is, and it has lead to other life changing experiences as well.
    I truly thought I had been born of God before this, and I believe there are yet higher baptisms and exaltations. So it may be true that I was born again before this, because my desires had been changed through The Lord, but the baptism of the Holy Ghost was greater for me personally.
    I do not mind if readers disbelieve this account, nor do I think you will be cursed for not believing: ). This experience was for me and I share it knowing that many others have received more. I love hearing of others revelations, and hope someone might find edification in this. I have learned time and time again that any such experience is only through the grace of God and His mercy, and not because we earned it. Faith in His power to change us, and the awareness of our nothingness are the beginnings of allowing His power to work in us. God bless.

    Liked by 4 people

  25. Minority,
    Beautifully described and testified of. You are not alone in these experiences. I know of several who have had experiences wh are much the same, yet each is different, I suppose tailored to the strengths, weaknesses, needs and MISSION of the individual.
    Very well said! Thank you for sharing.
    James Russell Uhl

    Liked by 1 person

    • James

      Thank you brother. The Spirit testified to me that you yourself have a great mission. I suppose you already know that but now I do, and I am grateful for it. Your friend and brother

      Liked by 2 people

  26. Minority,
    That is just awesome! I can surely hope for such an experience as I become more righteous and exercise my faith in the Lord. Appreciate your testimony. Much love and respect.
    Toby

    Liked by 1 person

  27. Tim,
    You said, “I felt the spirit of the Lord whisper to me, “This man is authorized to speak for the Lord. He has keys.”
    This seems a little strange to me. Why would Jesus talk to you in the third person? Why wouldn’t he say “This man is authorized to speak for ME?” Or, “I have authorized this man to speak on my behalf?”
    Just struck me as funny when I read that part of your account?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Stockoneder: Excellent observation. Even I hadn’t noticed that. Since it was in the third person, that, to me, identifies it as the Holy Ghost. Perhaps someone who has a better understanding of the distinctions can explain, 1) “The voice of the Lord,” 2) “The spirit of the Lord,” 3) “The mind of the Lord,” 4) The whisperings of the Holy Ghost,” etc.

      I often ponder these words from my patriarchal blessing: “You are to be guided and directed and schooled in your mission Timothy, by the whisperings of the Holy Ghost unto you. And if you will listen to the whisperings of the Holy Spirit, that comes to you, you will be directed into the path that you should go…” Third person here makes sense.

      Like

      • This gets a little confusing as I believe what the Lectures on Faith teach about who and what the Holy Ghost is as opposed to current LDS doctrine. Lectures on Faith 5.2 says the HG is the mind of God and not a personage at all. [Lec 5:2k] which Mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son;

        Liked by 1 person

        • This is the dialog I wanted to have with D. Charles Pyle. I too have noted that distinction in the Lectures on Faith. Yet, we have this in the Book of Mormon, 1 Ne 11:11 –

          “… for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.”

          I’m sure others have already figured this out. I still ponder just who is who in the spirit world. I always try to relate it to my own personal experiences in prayer and at other times when I have felt inspired.

          So who is the “Spirit of the Lord” that took Nephi up on the high mountain and showed him many things that were to come? Was this literally the Holy Ghost, or was it an angel with an assignment?

          And when I hear “the whisperings of the Holy Ghost,” also named “the whisperings of the Holy Spirit” by the patriarch, making them the same thing in my mind, whose voice – whose whisperings – am I hearing?

          What has been your experience?

          Like

        • And a few additional scriptures to consider: D&C 130:22

          The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

          And Moses 6:61

          Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

          What or who is it that dwells within us? It is the Comforter. Is that the same as the mind of God, the voice of the Lord? So when we feel inspiration and hear the whisperings of the Spirit of the Holy Ghost, we are accessing, participating in and are a part of the mind of God, right?

          Joseph said,

          I am learned, and know more than all the world put together. The Holy Ghost does, anyhow, and he is within me, and comprehends more than all the world; and I will associate myself with him.

          We can all possess this same Mind of God and be on the same page. It simply takes practice, patience and faith to understand the Mind of God. Thanks, stockoneder, for bringing up the Mind of God.

          Like

        • And for those who don’t have it, Lectures on Faith 5:2 –

          There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things–by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible: whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space–They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image;–he is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father: possessing all the fulness of the Father, or, the same fulness with the Father; being begotten of him, and was ordained from before the foundation of the world to be a propitiation for the sins of all those who should believe on his name, and is called the Son because of the flesh–and descended in suffering below that which man can suffer, or, in other words, suffered greater sufferings, and was exposed to more powerful contradictions than any man can be. But notwithstanding all this, he kept the law of God, and remained without sin: Showing thereby that it is in the power of man to keep the law and remain also without sin. And also, that by him a righteous judgment might come upon all flesh, and that all who walk not in the law of God, may justly be condemned by the law, and have no excuse for their sins.

          And he being the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fulness of the glory of the Father-possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son, and these three are one, or in other words, these three constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things: by whom all things were created and made, that were created and made: and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one: The Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power and fulness: Filling all in all–the Son being filled with the fulness of the <strong>Mind, glory and power, or, in other words, the Spirit, glory and power of the Father–possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom: sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father–a Mediator for man–being filled with the fulness of the Mind of the Father, or, in other words, the Spirit of the Father: which Spirit is shed forth upon all who believe on his name and keep his commandments: and all those who keep his commandments shall grow up from grace to grace, and become heirs of the heavenly kingdom, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ; possessing the same mind, being transformed into the same image or likeness, even the express image of him who fills all in all: being filled with the fulness of his glory, and become one in him, even as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one.

          Like

  28. These are very very good questions! Read the Book of Mormon with these in mind.
    The Spirit of The Lord is different than the Holy Ghost. All of been used so interchangeably that the meaning has been lost.
    Notice abinadi began to shine when the Spirit of The Lord was upon him, I am at work so I can’t cite numerous scriptural examples but when people gain the Spirit of The Lord they are filled with great power.
    This is a huge mystery worth seeking. When Elijah was going to be translated Elisha asked him if a double portion of his (Elijah’s) spirit could be placed upon him. This blessing was given and Elisha immediately goes and parts a river.
    Moses was told by God to place a portion of his (Moses’) spirit upon Joshua in the Old Testament. Paul mentions that they had imparted not only of their substance but of their own souls to those whom they ministered to.
    In 1 John 4 (I believe it is) he teaches to try every spirit. There is so much more going on here.
    Paul often speaks of the mystery of Christs Spirit that is in us. During the atonement, could He literally have split His soul to be imparted to every human being? The Spirit of Christ is given to every man…
    Just some thoughts. : )
    The at one ment is incredible.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I had not noticed in LoF 5:2 the phrase used is “The Holy Spirit” and NOT “the Holy Ghost.” We do use them interchangeably, don’t we?

      From the Idaho Falls lecture, page 14:

      What exactly is it that dwells inside of you, and is a personage of spirit? What exactly is it that you hope to become, if not another member of the Godhead? What exactly is it that Joseph Smith is saying in this Lecture on Faith about the mind of God? Understand, he had in front of him, because he was in the process of actually doing it during this timeframe, the Inspired Version of the scriptures.

      Look up Moses 6:61. “Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter;” [That’s another name for the Holy Ghost. He gets to dwell in you, the record of heaven] “the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things…” [This is the definition of the Holy Ghost. And by the way, this definition of the Holy Ghost will read exactly like what we are encountering on The Lectures on Faith.]

      So is Denver saying the Holy Ghost is the same as the Holy Spirit? And what about this from Elden Watson: http://eldenwatson.net/2HGNT.htm?

      Like

      • Denver has taught that the Holy Spirit is the mind of the Father and Son, BUT the Holy ghost is given to you, to abide in you. Are they not the same?One being the mind of them, while the other being yours to swell in you. Receiving the Holy Ghost is to not contend with what already is given you and receive it. And it is (was) given as a gift from the beginning. What do you think Tim?

        Like

  29. I enjoyed all the drug theories above. I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia about seven years ago. The PAIN and FATIGUE was unbelievable! Only someone who has been through this can understand. Sometimes the pain was in just part of my body and other times it was everywhere. It came on almost overnight and didn’t start to get any better for about a year. I still deal with it, but it’s much better today. I have to be on many medications. I have tried to stop taking them, but the pain comes back. People with fibro also have trouble with insomnia. I absolutely can’t sleep without several sleep pills.

    Something I have wondered about is if these medications are affecting my ability to feel (hear) the Spirit and have revelation. I have no inspired dreams, as I can’t sleep to have a dream or am so drugged up at night. I have to take Lyrica during the day to relax my body and stop the pain. But, I wonder if it also dulls (stops) the Spirit.

    I have struggled with depression at different points in my life. So bad, that on my mission (20+ years ago) I had to be put in the hospital for a month! (Very humiliating experience.) I therefore have “skin in this game.” I know by experience the devastating effects depression can play in our mortal life, and problems it can cause down the road (fibromyalgia). I gladly look forward to the day my Savior will wipe away all my tears.

    What has been the cause of all this? It does run on both sides of my family. My experience “woke-up” other family members to this problem, that before they were all trying to hide.

    I will here proclaim that much (if not all) of my depression over the years has been caused by my “great desire” to live the gospel. Yes, the Church is the problem. I love the Church, but it has caused me so much pain. Or is it my “unbelief” that Christ is the Great Healer, and has already saved and healed me, if I would just believe? Do I lack faith? Why is living the gospel (trying to), so hard (hurts so badly)? Am I being tormented with evil spirits?

    So I keep taking the drugs I seem to need. Are the drugs numbing me to spiritual things? I am trying my best? Is that enough? Like many of you, I long for my Savior to tell me, “well done, thy sacrifice is acceptable.” (Well let me restate that. Actually the Lord has already told me this, I just need to remember and believe.) Or am I some type of weakling. If I just had more faith and overcame my “unbelief” would things get better?

    I teach the Gospel Doctrine class in my ward. I have tried to hint to some of the things disguised here in this blog. I hope that some have eyes to see.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Your story and openness is inspiring. I was very interested to hear that the church has been a cause of depression for you.
      From my own standpoint, I have learned something interesting that has helped my family a lot. That is that I resigned from the LDS church… Lol I will try to explain. First of all I am not advocating resigning. I am not anti LDS by any means but for me it had to be done.
      Putting aside any spiritual experience I had that lead me to know it was ok to not be a member, I see now that the LDS church was hurting my family.

      My wife and I always had time consuming callings, and we believed it behooved us to do what church leaders said to do. My kids continually had activities with primary and nursery, we has to worry about home and visiting teaching, often we had 2 or 3 nights a week booked with meetings for presidencies etc. we believed this was just part of the gospel and we would be blessed for these endless activities.
      After my wife and I went through a spiritual change and ended up outside of the church, we no longer have things to take us away from the family. Now we pray and study together as a family simply because we love God and nothing else. We have seen our kids flourish in ways that we never thought possible and have a lot more confidence. They love to pray and talk about the gospel with us. I watch my brother in law miss his kids birthday parties and spend very little time with his family because he is a Bishop and I see so clearly the pain that is caused from such things. So often all I hear from members is how bad their meetings are and how pointless etc, and I wonder why then do they do them?
      Anyway I pray you will find joy. I recalled the story of the blind person who the disciples asked about, whether it was because of the individuals sin or the sin of the parents that the blindness had come, and Jesus answered that it was neither, but it was so the power of God could be shown through that individual. I hope such is the case with you.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Hi dr2, your story really resonates with me as I’ve observed some of the same things with my wife over the years. She also had/has fibromyalgia and struggled with things of the church, and since she’s parted with it she’s been happier for sure. After gaining some distance and perspective about it she realized how much she was brainwashed by false doctrines and teachings (and myths) presented as true growing up in the church. Kinda pissed her off, actually.

      Anyway, I feel weird because all my posts in this thread have been health suggestions, but my wife did suffer for years with fibromyalgia to the point where she couldn’t function well sometimes (which led to more problems because church members didn’t believe her and/or didn’t even show a trace of empathy), and what she discovered was she had a gluten intolerance. So she stopped eating gluten and her fibromyalgia gradually disappeared. She still suffers a bit from CFS, but she’s so much better now. Try going gluten & dairy free for a month and see how you feel. I bet you’ll see at least some improvement.

      Liked by 1 person

  30. Thanks for the warm comments. Let me clarify my statement about the Church causing depression in my life. It’s more like my ability to live up to all the standards and “feel” worthy, is the problem. I will never be perfect, that’s the problem. It has always seemed to me that in order to receive “all” the blessings, or at least the ones I seek, required perfection (at least in my mind). You must keep “all” the commandments, “all” the time. You must be obedient in “all things.” Always! I just can’t live up to this level.

    Because of my proneness to depression, I will never be able to accept leadership callings (I am glad to be a helper), I just couldn’t handle the pressure, as it will throw me into depression, and I will have panic attacks, which then makes me hate myself for not being able to “live the gospel.” The Church has stretched me in so many ways (which is good, and what life is all about), but I can only be stretched to a certain point and than I break (total meltdown – self hatred towards myself, the Church, and God to some extent, for requiring me to be perfect. Way is it so hard to be able to have peace, and to feel worthy of the Spirit?

    I consider myself to be a gospel scholar. I have owned many Church books, etc. During times I have been very depressed, I have even taken my library of books and other materials, and tossed them into the dumpster (hundreds of dollars!). Why did I do this? I’m not sure to be honest. At the time I felt angry with the Church (God), that I just can’t do it (always be perfect and living all the commandments). I’m a failure! So I would hate myself and even go so fare as to begin hurting myself. Back 20+ years ago on my mission, I very much wanted to die (hence the one month experience of being locked up in the psychiatric ward of the Provo Hospital.)

    Leaving the Church is not an option. It would hurt too many people, including myself. I have a large tight nit family. Plus I have been through hell to stay and serve in this Church. It’s my Church!

    My family goes back in almost all directions to as early as 1832 in this Church. How can I leave the church of my forefathers? I felt like a traitor on my mission, I just couldn’t do it (handle it). But my faithful ancestors did it. They sacrificed much more than me. What’s wrong with my? Why can’t I? I lasted 15 months on my mission. I came home twice, and served in two different missions, including the hospital stay.

    My Father in Heaven was very merciful to me. He gave me the experience of attending the BYU Jerusalem Center, before my mission. This experience alone has kept me in the Church. I can’t begin to describe what a wonderful experience this was, and the impact it has had in my life. How could I ever leave the Church after it gave me this experience?

    I know that I am being too hard on myself, but it is what it is. This is me. I am working on correcting all these false beliefs (unbelief as the scriptures would call it). I am trying to break down all the false traditions I have been taught about living up to all the standards and trying to “earn my salvation.”

    I do see that it all comes down to faith in Christ and letting Him in, and letting Him save me. I can’t do it myself. Please dear God save me. I have done all I can, and that is going to have to be enough. O how I hope it is enough.

    As you can see it has been a roller-coaster of ups and downs. That’s what I came to earth to experience. I just hope I can endure to the end.

    I enjoy your blog Tim.

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    • This comment may not be anything you don’t know but I just had some thoughts during your comment that I was impressed with.

      I pondered on grace and how it works and operates, and how one obtains it. In the church often there is a conception that grace comes when we try as hard as we can to keep all of the commandments, then the grace of Christ fills in the gap where we were/are lacking. A scripture often quoted to teach this principle is that we know we are saved by grace “after all we can do.”
      Ok I can’t emphasize this enough. This teaching is false, it is perverting what Nephi taught, and it is harmful.

      Spiritual progress is sometimes equated to how well we obey the commandments. We perceive people to be righteous when we do not see them sin and we see them do “service” for others. We think this might make them worthy of the spirit.

      The truth is that no one is worthy of the spirit. One sin = eternal damnation. A sin damages out spirit, and our spirit cannot be healed through obedience.

      So the point is that we first need to find forgiveness through faith, which brings the Holy Ghost and grace, THEN we have the ability to be obedient. Obedience can only come if we receive grace first. No grace makes obedience an impossibility.
      Once we receive grace then we become obedient to a degree because we love God, but then we need to “continuing supplicating God for grace.” each and every day, “humbling ourselves in the depths of humility, calling on the name of The Lord daily.”
      It is funny because anyway who is in mortality, even they have been born of God, had millions of revelations etc, is no more worthy of anything than the worst sinner, they are no more righteous. As long as we are mortal then corruption resides in our flesh.
      One may have learned to rely on God more than the other but until they are redeemed they are no better off (as far as deserving anything) than the worst sinner there ever was.
      You are unworthy so am I. You are imperfect so is everyone, not only that but we are all imperfect to the same degree! Like james taught if we sin in one thing we offend in every point of the law.
      The moment any of us think we are better than anyone in anything is the moment the atonement stops working and grace is discontinued. I felt the Spirit in your short prayer. I pray for God to save my soul as well! God save us all! Thanks for your inspiring example. Thank God that He came down and was the only one that was righteous and worthy and perfect, because none of us ever will be until He makes it so and only through grace.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Thank you for the thoughts. I will ponder more about grace. I agree about the scripture you quoted. I think it should have been written: “for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, [even] after all we can do.” I like the title of this book: “All You Can Do Is All You Can Do But All You Can Do Is Enough!” Christ = Enough.

        http://www.amazon.com/All-You-Can-But-Enough/dp/0804104999

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    • Doctorandrose2, I just had an additional thought that may be of use to you. I just saw one of the new temple films for the first time today (I live several countries away from a temple, so I go rarely), and had an extraordinary (to me) insight: shame is a Satanic invention. Adam and Eve were sad they messed up, and more than a little confused about Lucifer, who he was, and what he wanted, but they were probably overjoyed to hear Father was coming for a visit, no matter what had happened in the interim. But then Lucifer said, look, you’re naked, you better cover up and hide. Father, when He arrived, was unhappy that they were ashamed. That was what He reacted to first, before He asked about the fruit.

      We are supposed to do our best and try to be better, but we don’t have to feel ashamed. Shame leads to hiding and covering, rather than to openness, repentance, and wisdom. We are not supposed to be anything but joyful at the prospect of approaching God.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Julie,

        Very insightful. Thank you.

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      • I find it interesting that the Savior, our Advocate says, “Return unto me, that I may heal you,” while the adversary, our accuser says, “Run and hide!”

        Both recognize something is amiss, but one seeks our welfare, the other our damnation.

        Liked by 1 person

    • doctorandrose2 —
      Thank you for exposing some tender “second estate” lessons for us all. I am reminded of:

      Isaiah 30: 20, 21
      20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

      21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
      and of course your Teacher is the Lord Jehoshua —

      D & C 84: 88
      88 And whoso receiveth you, there I will be also, for I will go before your face. I will be on your right hand and on your left, and my Spirit shall be in your hearts, and mine angels round about you, to bear you up.
      and Peter’s word’s:

      I Peter 4: 12, 17 – 19
      12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

      17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

      18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

      19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

      and finally:

      Ether 12: 27, 33 – 34
      27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
      33 And again, I remember that thou hast said that thou hast loved the world, even unto the laying down of thy life for the world, that thou mightest take it again to prepare a place for the children of men.

      34 And now I know that this love which thou hast had for the children of men is charity; wherefore, except men shall have charity they cannot inherit that place which thou hast prepared in the mansions of thy Father.

      doctorandrose2 you seem to be on the right path. Loved you post.

      Liked by 1 person

    • I empathize with your feelings. I think virtually every active, faithful and perfection-oriented Saint has had similar feelings. And perfectly understandable given the way Modern Mormonism has incorrectly interpreted the doctrine of Grace & Christ. I think this developed as an overreaction to the Protestant teaching of salvation by faith (faith meaning belief) in Christ alone as sufficient. Even good Mormons misread 2 Ne 25:23: “for we know it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO.” Anti-Mormons always mock us for emphasizing that last clause; Mormons even get it wrong. If you cross to 2 Ne 10:24, it helps clear up this mystery: “and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is ONLY IN AND THROUGH THE GRACE OF GOD THAT YE ARE SAVED.” In this light, I think both scriptures should be interpreted to mean that despite all the wonderful things we try to do (to work hard and be perfect,etc) we must remain in constant remembrance that Christ and Christ Only saves us, by his GRACE. This is also consistent with King Benjamin reminding us that though we give our whole soul in serve, yet we are STILL UNPROFITABLE SERVANTS. The good part of the message (the GOOD NEWS) is that the direction we are pointing on the straight pathway and the attempt to keep moving is ALL THAT MATTERS to us at this point. In other words, the price of salvation is all we have, but when we are WILLING to put down all we have, then God is BOUND to accept that living sacrifice as SUFFICIENT for us. Salvation is as much about an actual relationship with Christ as it is about doing any specific thing or being at any specific point in development. I was as much of a “checklist” Mormon in my earlier years as anyone and eventually that model didn’t work for me. Because no matter how hard you try, there will always be another box to try to checkoff, or that you omitted, etc. That is, always another reason why you are not good enough. In recent years, my paradigm has shifted totally to trying to judge my performance on how well my relationship with the Holy Ghost, and hence with Christ is developing, and how well am I on depending upon Him to guide me along. This is not easy, but it is possible. I highly recommend the 2 books by Stephen Robinson, Believing Christ and Following Christ. Allow Christ to come in, dear brother, and He will. This mortal path is terribly difficult, but remember Christ promised that His Grace is sufficient. That means for you and me and each trying to put forth a good faith effort at making their way back home. God Bless.

      Liked by 1 person

      • The comment above is direct to DoctorandRose 2 above. Sorry, I thought I was replying directly to your comment above.

        Like

      • Karl,

        Good advice. Thanks. I read those two books years ago when they first came out. I have actually been thinking of them, and telling myself I need to read them again. Thanks for reminding me. This must be another nudge to re-read them.

        As stated above, I have no intent of leaving the Church, but it has been very enlightening to read Tim’s blog, and some of the others on his blog role. I have tried to teach some of these things to family members, but they think I am going or getting close to the cliff so to speak, telling me to be careful and not teach this stuff at church.

        I am currently reading “The Second Comforter,” by Denver Snuffer Jr, however, I am also re-reading “Following the Light of Christ into His Presence,” by John Pontius. I have found the latter to be much better, clearer, easier to read, and to the point. Interestingly both authors went through a divorce (their trial – John also had cancer). I would highly recommend this book to all of Tim’s readers.

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    • Don’t leave the church. Hang on. Christ is sufficient, He knows the way, and He knows you. See my comment below. Peace.

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  31. It appears that Daymon (http://daymonsmith.wordpress.com/2014/10/22/voice-and-author-ity/) has read your post, Tim, and believes that it would have been better and more honest if you had not ascribed the Lord as the originator of your thoughts.

    To me that would have been leaving out an important element of the story. Of course the readers have to judge the truthfulness and accuracy of all elements of the account. But I judge it better to include all the elements.

    Steve

    Like

    • It’s good to know Daymon’s thoughts on the concept of hearing the voice of the Lord. It really is a critical part of the process of revelation, that is, determining if what you “think” you hear is really from the Lord or just your own thoughts. I have had so many conversations with people about this process. They shouldn’t doubt thoughts that come in answer to years of prayer. It’s how the Lord determines if we are ready to hear more. This is not a scholarly process. The first chapter in The Second Comforter demonstrates how it works.

      I enjoy Daymon’s writings, but reading his works provide a different experience for me than reading Denver’s thoughts. I wrote a summary of the first chapter in the link below if anyone is interested. Especially note points 7 through 10. The problem with scholarly research and analysis is that it is NOT the way the Lord reveals himself to us. Please don’t take this as criticism of Daymon’s work. I will go and read the essay for myself when I have time later today.

      Thanks for pointing it out, Steve.

      https://latterdaycommentary.com/2013/03/24/overview-of-the-second-comforter/

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  32. On revelation

    I have found that when I ever have to wonder whether a thought or idea was from God or from me it was always from me.
    Every time I receive revelation it is clear and undeniable. God speaks understanding to the mind and power to the heart. Call the power “burning”, “electricity”, “lightning”, “spiritual fluid”, “energy”, or whatever.
    The other promptings and insights that we have in my opinion are from ourselves. This doesn’t mean they are wrong. Our spirits are very powerful and have been around for a very long time accumulating light and knowledge.
    Some things through pondering and reflection just seem right to us, we have an innate understanding etc., but this in no way compares to pure revelation. Obviously if we have felt peaceful about something, like everyone does about their own religion for example, and then have a revelation from God (burning witness) contradicting what we formally felt so good and right about, we will discard the false belief immediately because revelation infuses new light and understanding that we can’t deny.
    For myself I choose to not believe anything that I have not received pure revelation about. Many things I think make sense and seem right, but that is all. I think it was Mark Twain who said something to the effect of this, The way I can see the errors in others religion so easily, makes me aware that my own religion may not all be true…
    Admitting we don’t know can be scary, but it is also liberating and then falsehoods can be taken away without a painful fight.

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