The more sure WORD of prophecy


SchoolOfProphetsIn my first post I wrote about being called of the Lord. We must hear Him calling us in spirit and answer the call. When we hear those whisperings of the Spirit we can respond, “Here am I, send me!” as Isaiah did, or “speak, for thy servant heareth”, as Samuel did. At any rate acknowledge the voice of God, and nourish the word that He speaks to you through faith, so that you can receive more. We are told in the scriptures to “feast upon the WORDS of Christ,” His words are the living waters, continually flowing unto us if we will continually thirst, and not damn ourselves by unbelief.

I would suggest to really begin paying attention to words and names. The scriptures are a good place to begin, but truly the important names are given through the Spirit. What names has God called you by in the Spirit? Have you been called “Israel”? Have you been called a “son” or “daughter” by revelation? How about “clean” or “blessed”…? Israel blessed Ephraim and Manasseh, and said “let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac…” Think of the power of the names of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob among the Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

People of such faith have been called fathers to many nations, and still strengthen the faith of millions, but we have been given a greater name, even Jesus Christ, and we are willing to take His name upon us.

Phil 2:9-11

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 5:43

I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

John 17:25-26

O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Hopefully some of you will begin to catch on to what is going on here. Some mysteries are so plainly written and yet no one will see or understand. Suffice it to say that no name is given under heaven, whereby men can be saved, besides the name of Jesus Christ.

We should learn the other names and titles of God by the Spirit. That is how we come to know Him. Call Him by His names as they come to you in prayer. Doctrine and Covenants 19 gives a couple of important names, and we can learn their meaning by revelation. Notice the Lord says “it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles…”

D&C 19:8-12

Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles. I speak unto you this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest. For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore- Eternal punishment is God’s punishment. Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

Learn the names and attributes of God by revelation! Remember the scroll that Ezekiel ate in vision, and the book that John ate as well, these symbolize the words of God becoming part of us and one with us. Ok I could write a whole post on this but I want to get into the more sure word of prophecy. The Spirit this morning told me to share an experience I had years ago. I was in a sacrament meeting during church, pondering upon the Savior when I was filled with fire to the point that it felt like I was raised from my chair five feet. As I bowed my head the voice of God came to my spirit with great power and called me by name, “Nathaniel my son, thou art blessed, for thou shalt be exalted!” Every particle of me was illuminated and filled with the power of the Holy Ghost.

Ok I know that most people say this is an experience that we shouldn’t share. I know that this experience has happened to countless people, and many readers have probably obtained a similar promise by revelation. Well, the Spirit rested upon me heavily the rest of that day, and I had obtained a high promise from the Lord in revelation. In fact, I was pretty sure I had had my calling and election made sure, and maybe I did in spirit. The Lord cannot lie, and His promises are sure, but in this post I want to talk about the “more sure word of prophecy,” which I now know means quite a bit more than most people have previously taught, and maybe expound on the idea of having something MADE SURE.

Before moving on I want to reiterate that faith is the key to all things offered of God. We must humble ourselves and admit our nothingness. None of us are any better than anyone else here in mortality because sin has damned us all until Christ redeems us. He is the Redeemer, He is the Savior, and we can do nothing of ourselves.

Hel 12:7-15

O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth. For behold, the dust of the earth moveth hither and thither, to the dividing asunder, at the command of our great and everlasting God. Yea, behold at his voice do the hills and the mountains tremble and quake. And by the power of his voice they are broken up, and become smooth, yea, even like unto a valley. Yea, by the power of his voice doth the whole earth shake; Yea, by the power of his voice, do the foundations rock, even to the very center. Yea, and if he say unto the earth—Move—it is moved. Yea, if he say unto the earth—Thou shalt go back, that it lengthen out the day for many hours—it is done; And thus, according to his word the earth goeth back, and it appeareth unto man that the sun standeth still; yea, and behold, this is so; for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.

There is a mystery here. Are we hearkening to the words spoken to us by the Holy Ghost? Do we know the voice of the Lord and how He speaks to our spirits? Has he spoken to you? We must learn His voice and hearken to NO OTHER VOICE. WE must be sure to KNOW the difference between our own voice, the voice of the adversary, and the voice of God. The Holy Ghost speaks to our “mind,” and our “heart.” There must be a power that we “feel,” as well as an “understanding” given. That is beside the point of this discussion I guess, but how many people are really understanding God’s voice?

Back to the more sure word, Hebrews 4:8-12

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

We are encouraged to enter into the rest of the Lord, and Paul says at this point the man (or woman) who has done this has “ceased from his own works”, then goes right into talking about the “word of God”.

When Nephi says “when He shall manifest Himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do,” he is actually saying a lot more than we might observe at first glance. He is saying that when the Lord commands in the flesh, power is given that the command WILL happen. When it was mentioned above that the dust moves hither and thither at the command of God, a mystery was being unveiled for those who have ears to hear. How often in scriptures does it say that WE are made from the dust of the earth?

Paul said at this point we are in the Lord’s rest and then God works through us, not only in spirit, but also in body. Our very elements are His to command, to go forth and change the world to whatever degree He would have us do. The thing is that we know the Lord never works by compulsion. All things are given unto us according to the desires of our hearts, and so our spirits must be in complete harmony with God through His grace and the power of the atonement, so that our ONLY desire is truly to do the works of God and be one with Him. If this is not the case, we will never be brought back into the physical presence of Jesus Christ, unless it is to our peril.

Also from Helaman 12:19-22

And if the Lord shall say—Be thou accursed, that no man shall find thee from this time henceforth and forever—behold, no man getteth it henceforth and forever. And behold, if the Lord shall say unto a man—Because of thine iniquities, thou shalt be accursed forever—it shall be done. And if the Lord shall say—Because of thine iniquities thou shalt be cut off from my presence—he will cause that it shall be so. And wo unto him to whom he shall say this, for it shall be unto him that will do iniquity, and he cannot be saved; therefore, for this cause, that men might be saved, hath repentance been declared.

Such is the power of the voice of God! He has been speaking to us in spirit and drawing us to Him. We have been under the watchful care of the Shepherd and soon He will dispense His name to His sheep, not only in spirit, but also physically! How beautiful it will be for those who have hearkened to the Holy Ghost and love to follow God, but those who have trusted in any other voice and have said “we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough..”, only damnation can await until they develop more faith and repent. They do not want any more! God will not take away our agency. What a perfect plan to sift us. Who will obtain the word and follow God and trust in no one else?

Ex 34:5

And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.

When He comes in the flesh He will proclaim His name and then it will spread to all of His sheep in the last gathering and final dispensation before the millennium. After there has been war and destruction and calamity, it has been prophesied that many men will die. Isaiah makes some marvelous prophecies,

Isa 4:1-2

And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

Lovers of polygamy smile at this verse, but they have wrested the scriptures. Isaiah is clearly prophesying of the name of the Lord that will be given from person to person until “All shall know the Lord!” Compare to some other verses from Isaiah.

Isa 56:5-6

Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant

Also Isa 62:2-4

And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name. Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

Yes, many of us have been told many things by revelation. We have been given promises that WILL BE FULFILLED. Well wonderful, I for one would like them made sure in this life. Fortunately I have learned for myself that the Lord is going to begin to manifest Himself to many people soon in the flesh. The earth is about to change. It doesn’t matter which one of us it happens to first. We must prepare ourselves, and always be hungering and thirsting for MORE!

Alma 26:22

Yea, he that repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth continually without ceasing—unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God; yea, unto such it shall be given to reveal things which never have been revealed; yea, and it shall be given unto such to bring thousands of souls to repentance, even as it has been given unto us to bring these our brethren to repentance.

Matt 13:52

Then said He unto them, “Therefore every scribe who is instructed unto the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a man that is a householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.”

Where is the faith? Where are those who have been instructed unto the Kingdom of Heaven? IT IS PROMISED that such people will bring to light truths of the gospel that have been hidden. Many are being blessed with greater faith and the strange act is about to commence. Will we be among those who are willing to receive more, or have we said in one way or another that “we have enough”?

Those who are blessed with the sanctification of their bodies and become “holy”, as people were in days past, can also be given a gift that their words will be spoken with the power of God. Right now NO ONE has this gift in the flesh. Yes there is edification, but when speeches are given there might be half of the audience receiving things by the spirit, because their own spirits are in harmony with what was given, and the other half could have felt nothing and walked away wondering why all the nut-jobs loved the speech so much.

3 Ne 7:17-18

And he did minister many things unto them; and all of them cannot be written, and a part of them would not suffice, therefore they are not written in this book. And Nephi did minister with power and with great authority. And it came to pass that they were angry with him, even because he had greater power than they, for it were not possible that they could disbelieve his words, for so great was his faith on the Lord Jesus Christ that angels did minister unto him daily.

This is the power to confound anyone, the “power of God unto the convincing of men,” that was promised in the Doctrine and Covenants when one would “obtain MY WORD…” King Benjamin was not trembling during His speech because of his old age. He was a “holy man.” The spirit of the Lord was flowing from him to those who had gathered and was so powerful that they all were converted! They all were given the name of Christ! Read it! It’s all there.

Such will be the power of those called and sent. The time is upon us. Think on D&C 85:7 where Joseph was told of the one mighty and strong who will “utter words, ETERNAL words,” also that prophet who will be called who will be like Moses. The Lord said in Deut 18:19-20:

“I ….will put MY WORDS in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him, But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die….”

Remember the promise that “the Lord giveth no commandment unto the children of men, save He shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which He commandeth them.” (1 Ne 3:7) Then take into account the great commandment to “Be ye therefore perfect…” or to be “Even as I am…” If Christ speaks these words to us in the flesh it will be done.

This post has been lengthy and many of you probably didn’t read the whole thing, I don’t blame you… Please read the other posts I have written to better understand this if you haven’t already. Also read the posts by Tim and others who have been inspired. The work of God continues. What will He reveal through you? What words have you received or have you yet to receive that the Lord is willing to impart? God bless us all with a greater portion of His Spirit.

Eph 3:14-19

For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

This is my prayer also in the name of Jesus Christ, amen

65 Responses

  1. I have been trying to become holy for the past several years.  I read your posts and find I am far away from where I want to be.  Thank you for placing yourself in a position where you can instruct us.  I do read your posts and try and obtain what your are suggesting.  I have been called by Christ at various times in my life but have not performed as well as I should.  You have set the bar high where it should be.  Your words are being heeded.  The power is flowing through you to bring others to where we need to be.  Thanks.

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  2. You will get there. I know it. Christ will bring us there. We are all connected and uplift each other as members of the body of Christ. Thanks for your faith and testimony.

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  3. Bravo! Very nicely done.

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  4. I’ve received so, so many new ideas from this post! You, too, are a man of God. Thank you Nathaniel.
    There is nothing wrong, of course, with sharing your personal calling and election. I feel my personal call is to declare the truth of my experiences, even to the laying down of my life, because so few have sufficient courage or can fulfill the Lord’s requirements for such. So I testify alongside these other witnesses: I know God lives. I have seen His face in vision. It was as if I were there with him. I have heard the voice of Jesus himself on occasion as I pray. One of these occasions was a confirmation that I was on the right course, that I would receive eternal life, that I could not fail. I’ve been troubled sometimes by those last words, because I still consider myself able to fall. But perhaps it is because of that humility that I don’t. Perhaps this was Jesus’ secret: He did not sin because he knew he was liable to, and how; so he didn’t.
    There are several questions I asked myself that we all could benefit by asking ourselves at the appropriate time:
    – “How many people are really understanding God’s voice?”
    – “Who will obtain the word and follow God and trust in no one else?”
    – “Where is the faith? Where are those who have been instructed unto the Kingdom of Heaven? IT IS PROMISED that such people will bring to light truths of the gospel that have been hidden. Many are being blessed with greater faith and the strange act is about to commence. Will we be among those who are willing to receive more, or have we said in one way or another that “we have enough”?”
    – “The work of God continues. What will He reveal through you? What words have you received or have you yet to receive that the Lord is willing to impart? God bless us all with a greater portion of His Spirit.”
    Now for the flip side of the coin… It has to be addressed, in order to root out the evil.
    I have a friend who attended a lecture at Brigham Young University by Mike Otterson from the church’s “awareness” department, who said the department’s stated vision was to preach by “the more sure word.” Mr. Otterson said the interpretation of this vision is to share the gospel with “better marketing skills”. He then tearfully bore testimony that he knew that people would love the Meet the Mormons movie because they had done polls and control groups and such. Amazing, how far we have fallen as a people… I almost can’t believe it, because it SHOULDN’T be that way, and it’s shocking because it’s true. It really is. My friend told me there was no spirit there during that testimony. I can believe that. (If anyone’s interested I got an audio recording of the lecture.)
    46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
    47 It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
    41 For it is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother, than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    (JST, Mark 9:46-47, 41 http://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst-mark/9?lang=eng)
    Let your eye be single to God and His glory.

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  5. Victor
    Thanks brother! Thank you for your faith and willingness to share. How many would believe your testimony in a fast and testimony meeting? Better yet how many would cringe and think less of you?
    The heavens are still open and greater things are coming for all who will lift up their heads and seek for further light. We must not be ashamed of Jesus Christ and the true fruits of the gospel! Even if we get cast out of our synagogues and places of worship we will praise God all the more and rejoice that we can suffer shame and persecution for the name of Christ.

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  6. Bravo MinofOne! Let us think higher thoughts!

    21. When I did sojourn in the land of your fathers, even the land of Jerusalem, a very rich young man came 
    to me and asked me what he should do to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Now, I say unto you, To such a 
    question there can be but one answer. For, in all times there has been one requisite to entering into my 
    Kingdom. I told him to keep the commandments whereby I have taught men and women in all ages to care 
    for each other and do no injury to men or God.
    22. And behold, the young man replied that he had done all that from his youth, wherein did he lack? 
    Upon his inquiry I did tell him to go and give all that he had to the poor and come follow me. Hearing this, 
    he went away sorrowfully, for he was a very rich man and he discerned that he had not done my will in all 
    his days. Yea, he sorrowed because, thinking he was righteous because he followed the law as it had been 
    taught unto him, he had but followed the will of men unto men, and he sorrowed for the sake of his own soul.
    23. Now, I say unto you, Blessed is he, and salvation is his in the Kingdom of my Father, because of his 
    sorrow. 
    24. Yea, this was a parable which Jesus taught unto my forefathers. Wherefore, I do ask this question unto 
    all who might read the words that I write: How was the old man made more content because he had less? 
    And how was the youth made more righteous because of his sorrow? Behold, has the Lord not entreated us 
    all to come unto Him? Wherein may we truly come unto him if our hearts are set upon the things of the 
    world? It is a question.
    25. The old man was encumbered by his property. Yea, his possessions weighed upon him and he was 
    unable to fully answer his Lord. When he gave up that which held him bound to the world, then did he also 
    feel a freedom and liberty he had not known. Liberated from his burden of property, he felt free to approach 
    his King.
    26. The young man sorrowed because he believed the words and teachings of the wise, wherein they taught 
    him to see to every good thing and to attend to the performance of every good work. When the Lord taught 
    him the purpose of good works, he sorrowed because he had invested so much of his strength in the words 
    and wisdom of men. Yea, great was his sorrow in knowing that he had prospered in the sight of men but not 
    in his Master‟s sight.
    27. Is this not a great lesson unto us? Is it to be deemed sin or untoward to own a piece of land? I think 
    not. This is not the message. It is a burden placed upon us by the Lord to shepherd and safeguard His 
    vineyard. It is good that men and women labor with their hands and with their talents, to provide for their 
    families, as also for the family of God. Wherefore, I deem it not sin to own or shepherd.
    28. Nevertheless, if such stewardship be only for pleasure, or to please men, then it does not please God. 
    To live for such pleasure becomes burdensome indeed, and when such burden is lifted, one may only 
    imagine the joy such liberty might cause to rise in the heart of one so unburdened.
    29. And if in this life there is no lasting happiness except in pleasing God, then how sorrowful might one 
    feel, indeed, to discover that a lifetime of labor pleasing men has brought one riches, but not of a lasting 
    character? For, the Lord pleases Himself in prospering those who love Him and follow Him. Wherefore, the 
    young man, discovering that his life work could not please God, must have also known that his prosperity 
    could not be lasting. He, having striven all his days to do that which men called holy, and discovering that 
    he served only himself and the pride of the world, bent himself low unto the Lord and went away, not 
    denying the Lord, but to do His will. He sorrowed for the life he had led following the words and will of 
    men and of the world, and for the greater, lasting good he might have accomplished had he but followed the 
    Lord instead.
    30. So let us also consider our lives. Let us not dedicate ourselves to the word and will of men. Let us put 
    off of ourselves the yoke of the world. Let us do all that we do for a higher purpose than to prove to our 
    neighbors and our kin, by our great possessions, that we have been diligent in providing for all our wants. It 
    is enough to so provide. Let us not spend our lives demonstrating to men that we have done the wise thing, 
    leaving nothing unattended.
    31. For, if I do a thing, I do it to please myself that I find pleasure in that God who made me. If I please 
    my maker I shall certainly please myself. But, if I am motivated by what my neighbor thinks is wise, or if I 
    wear out my life in pursuit of what my neighbor possesses, that I might be favorably compared with my 
    neighbor in the sight of men, then I have received my reward and ought to be content. But behold, can I 
    truly be content with that which I have become by serving the god of this world instead of the God of the 
    universe? I say unto you, Nay!

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  7. Sfort
    Thank you brother. : )

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  8. Minority of One, Victor v, and sfort…
    Thank you for the great posts and the great comments. I wanted to write a comment to you all and say you all share a great similarity! You are all true followers of God! I have felt the spirit about all 3 of you at different times.
    Minority of One,
    You truly are a man of God and I know you have been sent by God to write these posts so that the light and spirit you’ve been given will spread! I am forever grateful for your words of truth and your example of righteousness as you follow the teachings of the Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost!
    Victor V,
    Thank you for writing your story from a previous post! I had the Holy Ghost testify that your words were true! I have pondered and felt the spirit many times as I think about how you helped two spirits repent and turn to the light as you were battling the adversary!
    I was also happy to read your most recent comment about the story of the lecture at BYU. I had a similar experience when I went to a fireside about 7 or 8 months ago and listened to a 70 share his testimony and then teach the room what the Holy Ghost felt like and was. There was absolutely no spirit present and I was surprised to see how many people were almost worshiping him because he was in the quorum of the seventy. It was so bad that I walked out in the middle of it. I have never felt impressed to walk out of a meeting until that night.
    Sfort,
    I have felt the spirit very strongly about what you said in your comments! You made a comment about the Holy Ghost imprinting a piece of the Father on us and bringing back remembrance to us. I know that is true and it reminds me of the writings of the Nemenhah. I have read the first 3 volumes of the the Nemenhah and I know that those writings are true. The Holy Ghost has left and imprint on me and born witness to me that the Nemenhah writings are true just as I know the Book of Mormon is true. If you guys have not read the Nemenhah I suggest you give it a look. I have felt the Holy Ghost about many of the teachings with in. I love more than anything that it teaches everyone to seek after a confirmation of the Holy Ghost in ALL things for that is the only thing we can ever trust!
    Thank you all for the great words and sharing the knowledge that has been given to you! I know that Gods strange act and work upon this earth is starting once again and I know that you are all vital pieces to the Lords work and building up Zion. God bless!

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  9. Wow
    The Nemenhah pops up again. I had never heard of the book until about a week or two ago and have just started reading it at the request of a friend.
    I have yet to formulate a testimony clearly for it and will continue reading with an open mind. I have felt the spirit during the first volume because there are simply true principles. I do not know that it was historically true or that it is a literal translation.
    Ha ha interesting stuff I think the trick in reading anything is to read by the spirit whether it is the apocrypha or the Kabbalah or anything and do not get too attached to any book but seek for light from God. I have learned by the spirit reading les Miserables and the hiding place so are parts of those scripture? I guess it doesn’t matter because it brought me closer to God and I encourage all people to worship God in whatever way brings THEM closer to the Truth. Thank you all

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  10. “Behold, the Lord does provide all people in all times the means whereby they might seek His face personally. And He does give four great tasks and commandments unto the children of men. And, if they do avail themselves of these commandments, observing to keep them and to strive to perfect them, then are they taken speedily upon the Way. And behold, you may believe it, when you shall walk upon the Way with the wind beneath your feet, you shall see even the very face of God. Yea, you shall have come even unto Him as He has always beckoned His children to do, and you shall receive of Him all things that shall be necessary for you. Yea, when the Lord is your guide, and when the Lord is your mentor and teacher, do you believe that you shall lack any thing? Do you believe that any other person 17might be the bringer of greater light and greater truth than that which the Lord and the Holy Ghost together might bring you? Nay, but believe it not. For, mere man has not all things before him, as the Lord surely does have. Wherefore, we must come unto Christ in order that we might be presented at the veil, in order that we might converse again with the Father face to face. 97) This is the plan, even the great purpose of the Lord our God.”

    It is the power of the word that is key. Thank you for all who seek. You have kind hearts. The beauty of Nemenhah records is not in proving validity, not in detailing perfect historic correlation, not in verifying actual translation through known means; it is in the Word. The power in everything thus presented stands on its own. It is man that chases the Spirit away trying to disprove the Word when the Holy Ghost is the only entity capable of transforming your soul through the Word. Look at the previous phrases. Is this not speak of truth and power, showing God’s infinite love for his children? There are several inaccuracies in the volumes, no doubt. I have discovered some. It was translated by a group of linguists. I don’t know anything about them. I don’t know how they could make up the wording that eminates this power. IT only makes me strive to come upon the Way even more. Now is this not good? There is nothing in these volumes that makes me want to follow man, a group, nor a movement. It only points the way toward Christ and the Father, understanding the covenant with the Holy Ghost to bring us to that point. They are one. All on account of love. I am edified. Thank you for allowing me to display that which brings joy to me.

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  11. That is a good point but let me ask you this.. When God tells me the book of Mormon is true what does that mean? When I receive the same witness saying “The Book of Mormon is true” and ” “The nemenhah is true” what does that mean in your opinion? There is a difference when I feel the spirit reading books like the giver or other fantasy books because a principle is true rather than when the spirit tells me the “Book of Mormon is true”. I have need been told “The Giver” is true but have felt the spirit while reading it. That being said, I personally will put the books that God has told me are true above those that I have only felt the spirit while reading. Also why do we use any of the “scriptures” like the bible and the New Testament and their verses for references? Are they not just books like “les Miserable”. What’s the difference? Why do we as a people put the bible or the Book of Mormon or the doctrine an covenants above the Nemenhah or any other book? Is it because that’s what our traditions are? Is it because that what Joseph Smith did? Is it because that’s what “the prophet” teaches?
    These are just some things that I have thought about and would like to hear people’s opinions.

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  12. TheRevenger These are good and honest questions. Remember the power of the word. That is the key. I think our belief system in using the words, “I know this is TRUE or that is TRUE is an injected phrase the Church has set forth. When people say “I know the Church is true”, it discounts any observing or thoughts to ask questions relating to anything contained in it. It is a default swap so to speak. There for I don’t use the phrase to denote the validity of the subject at hand. I seek for power contained in the words ans transformation takes place through the Holy Ghost.

    There is much truth out there, and beside ordinances, there is no set “this is true” to coincide. Seek to be transformed by the words that speak “truth” and light.

    I am sorry If I lack  intelligent manner to explain my feeling concerning the words. Sometimes the Spirit just is.

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  13. Again good points. I do not know what it means when the spirit tells you something!:)
    Sometimes it is difficult enough for ourselves to learn the language of the spirit.
    I agree with sforts comment though if something brings you closer to Christ then it is good. Moroni 7 says as much. I do not value one truth above another and will seek truth wherever it is to be found. That is why I have decided to give the Nemenhah a chance.
    I would be a hypocrite otherwise. After knowing that joseph smith translated gold plates that were not even present with him at time by looking at a rock in a hat I cannot blame others for disbelieving and I guess if I am not willing to investigate other things (like Denver snuffer) or the writings of the Nemenhah because they sound a little strange then I would be hypocritical.
    I have seen no fault in anything Sfort has shared in the comments and nothing that I have read so far in the Nemenhah writings (I haven’t read much) has popped out as false doctrine so we will see : )

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  14. Sfort,
    Thank you for that!
    I agree with you 100% I could not have said it better and just because I feel the spirit about something doesn’t mean that it is right for everyone. We all need to learn every single principle by the Holy Ghost. Someone else can not receive it for us.
    Whenever I heard or hear someone say I know the church is true I cringe. I always think so this church building is true? Haha isn’t a church just a building?
    Going along with what you said and what I wrote before, I don’t think we should put any “book” or any persons teachings above another unless every word comes by the power of the Holy Ghost. I have never read a book that I feel the spirit more than I don’t while reading it. I don’t feel the spirit often while reading but when I do I consider it a great blessing! I hope the sealed portion comes in our day and I can say differently!

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  15. 25 And, again, I say unto you, Go ye into the world, and care not for the world; for the world will hate you, and will persecute you, and will turn you out of their synagogues.
    26 Nevertheless, ye shall go forth from house to house, teaching the people; and I will go before you.
    27 And your heavenly Father will provide for you, whatsoever things ye need for food, what ye shall eat; and for raiment, what ye shall wear or put on.
    JST, Matthew 6:25-27
    http://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst-matt/6?lang=eng
    I’m with you. I’m not fully prepared yet to heed this scriptural call, but will be soon.

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  16. Minority of One,
    Haha yes I know you don’t know what it means. Just making a point.
    I have run into a lot of humbling experiences and will probably see more in the future of myself receiving revelation that doesn’t seem to make sense with other peoples revelations (mostly my brother) and it has confused me and caused disagreements between us. After time I usually receive something new that makes it all add up and we were both right.
    God is way merciful to me and has continued to teach me even when I was puffed up and thought my brother was wrong. God has been humbling me greatly and teaching me this principle of Moroni 7 that you referenced.
    The Holy Ghost teaches everyone’s spirit according to their own understanding so it’s best not to try and interpret what others revelations are I guess especially because there are the barriers of our bodies that get in the way of trying to explain what our spirits have learned.
    P.S. Haha Thanks for the popular Book of Mormon reference;) maybe use a Les Miserables reference next time!

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  17. Interesting points
    I have a friend who has told me that the Spirit has told him that “the Book of Mormon is true”, yet he thinks that it is only true as an allegory and looks at it like the Gnostics do their texts.
    I don’t have all of the answers and sometimes I find it is wisdom to not place stumbling blocks before people. We can do nothing to convince anyone. If I speak with a Buddhist or a Hindu I will use different language to be edified and uplifted and encourage them on their journey.
    Paul said he became all things to all people. If any of you have not read the writings of st Issa (Jesus) I highly recommend it. I felt the Spirit very strongly at different points and loved how Jesus encouraged the Hindus (or Buddhists I can’t remember) to worship Brahman. To the Hindus Brahman is the most high Creator. To the Persians He persuaded them to quit worshipping the creations and to worship the Creator of all.
    I do not think God is so petty that He/She minds what we call Him. The sincerity of worship is what is important. Those who seek God (the Great Spirit was another from the Book of Mormon) He will draw us to Him and lead us to greater truth. We must trust God will bring all sincere seekers to Him in the most perfect way for them. His hand is in ALL things. The Spirit once told me after reading the brother of Jared account that in order to see Christ in the flesh we must first see His hand in ALL things. Thank you guys for your intriguing testimonies.

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  18. Thank you Revenger. It comforts me to hear people accept my testimony. Personally, it comforts me. The ultimate gift is in knowing I gave something essential perhaps to someone else, something that cannot be taken back.
    There are things that I do not agree with in the Joseph smith translation of the bible. There are doctrines taught in the Book of Mormon about the garden of Eden that I do not agree with. There are truths taught by the Nemenhah that I enjoy. I haven’t read it all yet. There are great truths taught by Denver Snuffer. I can’t say I know enough about priesthood keys yet to know whether he has them. I will find out in good time. I read part of a so called translation of the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon which I skimmed and took to be a fraud (you can learn more herehttp://youtu.be/EWdwnk6qADc).
    So what’s said by Sfort here is true. The only thing I can be sure of is that the Spirit of revelation we receive is real. I cannot pretend to fully understand it either. (But I do know what I am being told to do in each moment and rely on that.)
    And yes, “the church is true” is an oversimplification of a gospel testimony. Sort of like the tradition that a testimony of the Book of Mormon equates with a testimony of the entire gospel.
    This much I know of the Book of Mormon: Teachings, deep teachings within there, are the key from coming out of condemnation. That condemnation truly, truly does exist in the church. Establishing Zion through a community of people who have or are working towards the second comforter I believe is the key to that. I remain in contact with the LDS church only to help redeem them.
    And here is the call:
    25 And, again, I say unto you, Go ye into the world, and care not for the world; for the world will hate you, and will persecute you, and will turn you out of their synagogues.
    26 Nevertheless, ye shall go forth from house to house, teaching the people; and I will go before you.
    27 And your heavenly Father will provide for you, whatsoever things ye need for food, what ye shall eat; and for raiment, what ye shall wear or put on.
    JST, Matthew 6:25-27
    Oh, and Revenger–the same friend of mine walked out of his first ever meeting when called to a BYU honor code assembly. There was such a stress on rules rather than Spirit and righteousness that he couldn’t continue there. It may have been his first act of courageous defiance. I’m with you about the worship of seventies and apostles… I personally do not agree with standing when a general authority enters the room. It is virtually like bowing down to them.

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  19. I think the beauty of it is that at the right time God will send us. We must first seek to obtain the Word with all of the things that entails. Then we will have the power of God and we will be lead as we spread the word and not be another blind leader of the blind going about with no authority.

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  20. I agree with everything that you have said and I think that it is pretty clear that we all agree on the matter that we can only trust something when we have a confirmation of all things.
    Just curious to what you think the stumbling block is that you are referring to?

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  21. Victor
    I would love to hear about your garden of Eden beliefs. Have you read anything about Lilith yet?
    Yes the world will hate us. Soon the world will seek to kill the true followers of Christ. I know this! So much is happening it is all hard to keep track of. But God is preparing so many people in different ways.
    I agree we should not stand up for any man entering the room. We shouldn’t esteem any man above any other. Christ is the Way and the Truth.

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  22. Ha ha maybe I will use a Nemenhah quote instead!
    I was not referencing any particular stumbling block. I just think of Isaiah where he speaks of our day and says that the people will need to be weaned off of their false believes like a baby from its mother.
    I have had many experiences that I do not think it would be a sin to share, (and I do share at times when prompted) but I try to share them in the right time and manner. At any rate all things are planned perfectly with God and He has foreseen it all and He even uses our mistakes to further His plan! It is all beautiful really. All things work together for our good.

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  23. Once again I agree with everything you say here and I try to do the same thing by following the promptings of the spirit and share things at the appropriate time.
    What is it that you are referring to that you feel should not have been shared?

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  24. Nothing at all. It was not directed at you. It was in reference to the whole discussion and thinking of how each person is different and God will speak to then differently.
    If we become perfect instruments of God then I believe we will do the same.
    People deeply entrenched in the LDS church must be spoken to in a different manner than a new age mystic who is more likely to believe anything. I think you would agree with me on that. I am happy you shared everything you did and I love to hear testimonies from all people about anything.
    Like you said at times I have received a confirmation about something that seemingly does not fit into my paradigm but as I grow I eventually learn it fits perfectly. The truth is the truth. Jesus spoke in parables because He knew people received things depending on where they were at spiritually. Now the parable of talents means a lot more to me than it did even a year ago.

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  25. Minority,
    My beliefs are not based upon any revelation of my own. It is solely based on logic from scripture study. Eden has confused me since I first began my personal journey, although I have learned a great deal since then.
    I of my own self cannot accept the doctrine that Adam and Eve would have been forever trapped in Eden if they had not transgressed. It disagrees with other concepts of the gospel. I will take anything I can on the subject. I have heard of Lilith only once, so I know almost nothing. I’d love some good direction that perhaps Google couldn’t give.

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  26. Victor,
    I love your testimony of the Book of Mormon. There are so many beautiful principles within the book. I have been told the Book of Mormon is true but like you say that is vague and doesn’t mean I understand what it means.
    I of course didn’t take it that I should trust every single thing written within the book. I actually have received some revelations that don’t go in line with all of the teachings or opinions rather with some of the prophets. I have learned by the spirit that Laman and Lemuel will actually be saved and I learned by the spirit that Lehi saw the end of his vision of the tree of life right before he died and saw Laman and Lemuel partaking of the fruit from the tree of life and this was his greatest joy.
    Might sound kind of strange as a revelation but I had always wondered what was the fate of Laman and Lemuel as I was growing up and one day God revealed it to me and I am very grateful to The Lord for being aware of such a thought and caring enough to answer simple prayers such as that.
    I also have wondered much about the garden of Eden as I have learned some things that don’t quite match up to the Book of Mormon teachings but it could be me just not understanding which is usually the case.

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  27. Revenger,
    Right. And I figured you didn’t trust every single thing written there. You know, I was told years ago that Laman and Lemuel would eventually receive the celestial kingdom. To be honest, now that I have opened my ears to God about it, I don’t feel they would receive any lower glory. So I believe you are right.
    The basis for my witness of the Book of Mormon as a true book comes mostly from a very (relatively) brief vision I had of the Son of God teaching the children of the Nephites. Remember how it says that angels came and ministered to them? I know they cannot all have been resurrected beings. I have specific memory of ministering to a Nephite child. He was about nine years old. His skin was dark, as I remember. Darker than I would have personally expected. I thought the doctrine of the book was that the curse followed the people no more at that time and their skin was white. Seems pretty explicit. However I don’t toil my understanding with what I saw. There were mountains around in that place the Savior visited. I’m being told not to say any more about it, but I get the feeling that I would know the place again if I went there. Makes me want to visit some of those places touted as being Book of Mormon evidence.
    And I’m with you about not understanding Eden. I can’t stand not understanding. It’s very frustrating. I want to know Eden but I can also see that we have but a sliver of the picture. I would hope that the real true sealed portion is going to talk much about that. For whatever reason it doesn’t feel important to my circumstances and may not be taught to me in this life unless some other things are learned first.
    I love that we all can feel bold and comfortable enough to share our experiences here. I feel very much enlightened. Thank you and thank you all.

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  28. Victor,
    Thank you for sharing that experience! I was truly edified and felt the spirit about that being true.
    I have also learned that many of those angels that ministered to the nephites and also the lamanites were were people that are now living today.
    I love that you are open to sharing those experiences as they now are a part of me.
    I actually had a kind of similar experience a few months back. I had a vision of myself ministering to a member of the lost tribes but it was not in the past but it was in the future. It was an older black man that was dressed very nicely. His name was Indi-Ammon and I latter found out he was a Lamanite.
    Definitely not what I would have expected but I know that God has to show us some times rather than tell us so that we can understand.
    I am grateful to God for the edification I have felt while reading about your experience and writing mine as well.
    You are bold in your testimony which is a great gift from God! I know that God is willing to give more of his spirit the more you are willing to share what you have received so thank you for that!

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  29. Proverbs 11:24-26
    Very applicable to how we gain light from God. We MUST be willing to impart. Thanks for sharing your experiences I am edified most when learning of others faith and experience. I rejoice to hear of others experiencing so many wonderful blessings.
    Have any of you guys studied and received a testimony of the doctrine of eternal lives yet. (A fancy way of saying reincarnation except only coming back as humans on this earth and not a bunny or tree) So much will make more sense when we begin to grasp this.

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  30. Minorityofone I have somewhat. The idea of it all is exhausting. I really want to get it right this time!  The doctrine is fascinating, and not for the spiritually weak. The temptation would be there to “eat drink and be merry” and then tell oneself that they “will do better next time”. For this reason, I have not taught it to my children. I do not want them to damn themselves before they are ready to understand.

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  31. Minority— I’ve been inspired by it. I believe I have had previous lives myself somewhat recently before this one, but cannot be sure if these are memories or not. It has not been revealed to me yet. I absolutely believe it happens though and would be fascinated to learn more based on revelation.
    There are quite a few things I am still trying to figure out, which are often discussed on this page…
    – How symbolic or literal the Visions of Glory are
    – Whether Denver Snuffer holds the keys formerly held by the LDS church
    – Whether Brigham young’s claim that he was entitled to the presidency because the twelve are equal in power and authority–yet it is obvious he and subsequent church presidents were nothing like Joseph Smith was, or how I KNOW Hyrum would have been. I believe he was the best choice next to ASKING GOD at that time.
    – How binding God’s very generalized commandments (I.e. Ten Commandments) are to the specific individual who knows the spirit of the law behind the commandments. I’m of the disposition that I will do whatever God says is good and right, regardless of any prior commandment, and trusting in his voice alone in that moment alone. I have been incredibly blessed by this in absolutely no other way I could have been. One example: I will lie if God told me to. I hated it when I was first told to. But it enabled me to escape a great danger I otherwise wouldn’t have survived and been able to complete some other works the Father had for me. Such has been the case with the rest of the Ten. I haven’t killed anyone as Nephi has, though, haha. Nor stole anything. I’m reluctant but certain whenever things like this arise.
    If there were posts or discussions about this in the future I would be very glad to participate. (Or should I comment on older posts instead?)

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  32. Victor,

    If you would be so kind, I may elaborate on your uestions through research, study and the Spirit. 

    Visions of Glory was through Spencer’s eyes and won’t necessarily correlate with your understanding, i.e., getting a red ticket at the general conference; that is just preparing yourself spiritually. Next, Brigham Young, as Orson Pratt describes, was the legitimate successor to Joseph, because he was the only one, of all the contenders that participated in a second annointing in Nauvoo after Joseph died. None of the others did. There was no prophetic call, only authorization standpoint, or so they thought. Keys are knowledge. Only men seek to compel by fear through authority, and that is why the double down effect of the brethren. Next, If you are living by the law, you will be saved by the law, to wherever the ends of the law take you. In this case, the terrestrial kingdom, because it is “law” centered, and we will be judged by said law. Next, Please don’t look to Denver for anything other than calling us to repentance and waking us from our slumber unto the works of men. John the Baptist kept reiterating that there comes one mightier than I whose latches I am unworthy to unloose.  Being in a question mode is far greater position of light and truth than thinking we know by what we have read. You are on a great course. There is love through inquiry.

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  33. I like how you said “I have somewhat”. Ha ha that is how I feel! Every time I learn something new about it by the spirit it I have so many other questions.
    Crazy enough, I was told at one point to study Buddhism. This was the first time I was introduced to the reality of past lives. I felt the spirit about the idea of bodhisattvas (enlightened individuals who continually come back and help others progress even though they don’t need to) and then I stumbled across a past life regression book that blew me away.
    All the while there were LDS people who already believed in such things and I had no idea! In fact I read some stuff on Tim’s blog and was very edified with the knowledge that others had been receiving the same thing.

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  34. Victor
    The visions of glory were misrepresented in some ways and misinterpreted. God was trying to show spencer the death of the LDS church. (18 caskets etc). But I felt the spirit about a lot of it, especially the first third of it or so.
    Brigham young had no more authority than you do. The spirit has told me very plainly that keys are inherent in the priesthood. A key is just the ability to use Gods power in a certain way. Moses was given a key to have power over the waters. Some are given keys to see beyond the veil, and we all can become like nephi and lehi who were given the keys that whatsoever they asked it would be done. These are given based on faithfulness and Gods will and timing.
    It was very obvious brigham and company didn’t know what the heck they were doing. Brigham never claimed to be a prophet seer or revelator and in fact admitted he was not a legal successor of joseph smith. Wilford woodruff claimed to receive a revelation that any of the twelve could receive revelations for the entire church. Reorganizing the first presidency was completely uninspired. The church has been running off of the aaronic priesthood pretty much from the beginning.
    I disagree with denver on the when and how the church lost the opportunity to build up Zion etc. I believe joseph smith was called as an Elias and that’s it! Nothing more. They started making mistakes long before nauvoo and Sidney rigdon and others were influencing joseph and things got out of hand. The Spirit has told me powerfully and on multiple occasions that david whitmer was one of the greatest prophets of this dispensation and he never fell away from the gospel. I would suggest prayerfully studying what he had to say about it all.

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  35. I was just surfing the web for some David whitmer stuff and found that weepingforzion.com is doing some stuff right now showing differences between the book of commandments and the doctrine and covenants. Also they had stuff in the past on David whitmers writings. If you have time this is worthy of studying prayerfully.
    David whitmer said that the same spirit that testified to him of the plates and the validity of the Book of Mormon also told him to separate himself from the saints. Was he lying?
    I do not agree with all of his thoughts but he makes great points and helps clarify some things that were going on. The most difficult part of coming out from under the curse is realizing that joseph smith was just a man as well. He falls into the category of “flesh” and “men” that we will be cursed for putting our trust in. All things must be confirmed by the Holy Ghost and not blindly followed. Including anything in the doctrine and covenants or the teachings of joseph smith.

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  36. Minority,
    Such has been my case nearly all of my personal journey until I met the missionary who introduced me to deep doctrine. The case is feeling validated for personal beliefs. I agree about eternal lives and disagree with the idea that we can be from animals and plants, as you do. It doesn’t seem right and seems for some reason like it violates several powerful spiritual laws. Not to say that God can’t do what is right, whatever it is, but I know little of His kingdom, relatively.

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  37. Minority,
    The more I read the Visions the more I begin to realize their symbolic meaning. I’ve been given a great deal of practice interpreting dreams because I receive (what are for me) difficult symbolic ones in the early mornings a few times each week. I can see you seek for revelation a great deal and aren’t afraid of it. I’ll talk with you about the visions further by email. I have the beginnings of both gifts to receive and interpret dreams, but feel it hasn’t completely yet happened.
    Speaking of which, wouldn’t keys as you described them be called gifts? This is what I’m really searching for in life for my family and close friends in Zion, to help serve. The only successful community I can really see is of those who have received and/or are striving for the second comforter. So I look for more power in the priesthood. (Which, by the way–I can feel baptisms and confirmations that took place a year ago by LDS church members at least did have the power of godliness but haven’t seen that ever being the case for endowments or garments…)
    And on the same topic again, I also know that at least the keys within me are active to be genuinely real, and would require me to have the authority of a temple officiator in the LDS church. I feel this has a connection to my once regular visits to LDS temple grounds. I do know angels taught me there but perhaps I was blessed in some way while there because while pondering those keys I always think back to those times and feel the angels’ power.
    What do you mean that Joseph was called only as an Elias? I’m unfamiliar with this term except as a dispensation head. Or is that it?
    I’ll check out David Whitmer for sure. Wish I had more time for all of this…

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  38. Sfort,
    Thanks so much for your comments! It was very instructive. And in this case I mean that word to be that I felt and learned by the Spirit as I read.
    I mentioned to Minority that I am continuing to learn and understand Visions much more because I am allowing myself to receive and interpret dreams by the Spirit. You’re right, those visions simply cannot be taken as literally as we would hope. God doesn’t work like that, I’ve realized. Very few times does he give–well, not exactly few times does he give literal visions. I’d say that dreams for me are more symbolic, but when I see something or remember a premortal memory it is what it is.
    As for laws, I suppose I wish I could know more of the laws which I am told (and do) obey by the Spirit.
    I agree as far as Denver is concerned, and all other men. I have learned my lesson, that is for certain, in terms of following men. I don’t know much of Denver but I do think he is the sort of individual whose sole purpose is to lead others to Christ first and not distract them with himself. Poor guy has to deal with a lot of idol worshippers though. I used to be one of those. Not anymore. Like I’ve said elsewhere tonight, I learned this week how much more important the message is more than the man.

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  39. I’d love to take a look at that study on the book of commandments and will.
    I too believe David Whitmer left the church by that same spirit. That is what I sense. Of course, it’s been a similar experience for me.
    I agree that we have to realize Joseph is a man in order to remove the condemnation at least individually. I sure learned that this week while trying to defend his polygamy. I hadn’t even considered that he might have sinned in it. However, in the end, I honestly cannot see sufficient evidence besides the claims of people to determine much of anything. Nor can I gain any spiritual evidence at all. Why? I suspect it is because it has very little to do with my own journey. That’s what I feel with and I agree with that feeling.

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  40. If anyone can read the 2nd volume of the Archives, it will explain a lot about eternal lives, exhaltation, differentiating between the Everlasting Covenant and the New and Everlasting Covenant. It will explain a lot. This was the first earth or world to incorporate the New and Everlasting Covenant. It can lead to being like the Father in but one lifetime. The Everlasting Covenant took many lifetimes because of the non intervention of the Holy Ghost. There is so much that we do not know. We need to be proactive in asking for truth and light to expand our horizons that we may accept the Savior when He arrives and spiritually manifest the wonders of the creation. I am sure of this

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  41. MinofOne,

    Read the 2nd volume. It details the reason for eternal lives before the New and Everlasting Covenant came into being. Now the New and Everlasting Covenant changes this scenario. It involves the Holy Ghost because of it’s unique qualities. There is so much we don’t know. I am thankful for these archives. I feel I have some reality to the spiritual events taking place.

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  42. Yes the trick is to learn how the Holy Ghost speaks and then trust only what we have learned by pure revelation.
    So many are people are so sure the spirit speaks to them in multiple ways. It changed my life when the Holy Ghost told me that the only way He speaks to me is through the burning power that is a tangible experience. Peace and inspired thoughts are great but our mind can deceive us and so can feelings. Yes I mean the very same experience when one is baptized by fire. This has to occur (to one degree or another) in every revelation. Perhaps this only applies to me but every time I “feel the spirit”. It is this power.
    For us at first this is humbling because we must admit how little we have received, but then it starts to become more frequent and answers start coming faster.
    Look up Joseph’s talk on Elias Elijah and the messiah. When John the Baptist came he ordained joseph smith under the spirit of Elias. This is an aaronic and preparatory function. I have not been told yet specifically who did or did not receive the higher priesthood. I don’t know. I am open to the idea that no one did but I will hold off on that thought for now and admit that I do not know. I do know that multiple restorationist churches have the aaronic priesthood. Nothing more. The LDS church is one of those churches.
    Sfort- thank you I am committed to reading them and I feel it will be a blessing (no matter the validity historically) to do so. Thank you for introducing me to them.

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  43. Just a crazy thought for everyone. If polygamy is/was a sin, then joseph smith did not practice polygamy.
    He was not legally married to the other women, and if it was a sin, he would have not been married in Gods eyes, therefore if polygamy is evil, then either way you look at it joseph smith did not practice polygamy. The right question to ask God is whether he committed adultery… Does this pertain to us as individuals, not too much. Just as long as we know not to trust in the precepts of men, SAVE they are taught by the Holy Ghost. This is the key. Don’t trust one thing even if an angel of God says it until the Holy Ghost bears witness.

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  44. Sfort
    I too have read this and have a testimony of a few of the doctrines that are taught in the second volume. The principles of the Holy Ghost are awesome. I also have a strong testimony of the teachings of heavenly mother. The teachings of women and their priesthood being inherited from the mother is a truth that is very important. I haven’t learned all the teachings to be true in the three volumes that I have read but I think the books are good regardless because they teach people to become better people and love and accept everyone. Also I love how all the teachings seem to stress trusting only in the Holy Ghost and not being puffed up in pride.
    I think there are 9 volumes in the Nemenhah writings. Have you read all of them? What are your thoughts about them and how they were translated ?

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  45. Questions for all,
    Minority of One, Your last comment about the Holy Ghost is awesome an got me thinking. We need to learn for sure how the spirit communicates and trust in that and only in that.
    My experience of feeling the Holy Ghost is also tangible and brings a literal power and love. I believe that substance is truth and if we don’t know something by the substance I the Holy Ghost then we don’t actually know it. It’s not a part of us.
    The problem is many people innocently believe they are feeling the spirit. Who am I to say they aren’t? All I can say is I went through my first 26 years of life thinking that I had always felt the spirit. I grew up a member of the church and was active most my life. I was convinced I had the Holy Ghost as a missionary and good member. I had experiences that I thought were powerful at the time but I’ve learned it was the light that I had felt not the Holy Ghost.
    When I felt the Holy Ghost truly for the first time I was completely baptized from head to toe twice with that power and love. With it came the voice telling me that it was the Holy Ghost that entered me. The second time it went through me I has the understanding that I was experiencing heavenly mothers love. It was the greatest thing that had ever happened to me in my life and I had no doubt it was my first ever true experience with the Holy Ghost and from that time forward I knew I could only trust that feeling.
    Some people may think it’s weird that that was the first time I had experienced or felt the spirit but I have learned that I was extremely blessed by not feeling it the first 26 years of my life because of the huge contrast! I know that I can only trust that and I know how the Holy Ghost imprints true on or in me.
    That being said I would like to know how you explain that to people that have not experienced the Holy Ghost or believe they have? I would like to know what you guys think about it and also I am interested to know what you guys would say when some one asks you how do you know that it’s the Holy Ghost and not an evil spirit? I have had many family member and friends tell me that I must be following and evil spirit because I have learned so many things that are contrary to what the church teaches.
    That being said the first big revelation that I received that was contrary to the church was that polygamy has never been commanded by God. That includes Joseph Smith. Since then I have learned many many other things by that same spirit that go against the church.
    What do you guys think about all of it?If any of you have not received this or something about polygamy being wrong I would invite you to give it some serious thought and pray about it. I would like to know what you all learn by the spirit. If you have learned something supporting polygamy I would like to hear it as well. If you are offended or feel darkened I am okay with that as well. I have heard the majority of people tell me I am crazy and they don’t feel comfortable when I talk about it. I feel I know how the Holy Ghost communicates with me and I don’t trust things that make me feel uncomfortable or dark. I receive warning still with that tangible substance of love and power from the spirit. That is just me personally.
    Sorry for the long comment but I would like to know your thoughts on any or all of the points I brought up. Thanks guys

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  46. TheRevenger As mentioned previously, when I read, I study the words and word formations…In beginning was the Word…I look for light and truth. What is true for the Nemenhah may not necessarily be true or meant for us. It appears that when we move up the rung of the ladder of light, intelligence and truth, we change our perspective. What was once true or correct for us at one time, may be obsolete or unnecessary further up the ladder.

    The same with these records. I don’t look for things to disbelieve. I seek to be edified through the Holy Ghost. There will be a Seer from the posterity of the Nemenhah (True Believers) that will rise to gather the remnant to build Zion. The writings of Moroni in the 4th volume are astounding and beautiful. Every page is glistening with truth and light. The revealing of the Church in the latter days is also telling. They have seen our day and reported what the shepherds are doing and they are putting sorrow in these prophets. 

    Noe people can speculate all they want about these records and how someone today can prophesy about the doings, but the beauty of the way they are presented is that they still fall on the same theme: to come upon the Way, to come up to the High Place so to see our relations, the spirits of just men and women made perfect, and to be instructed by angels and to receive doctrine from the Savior in the flesh. It all revolves around this theme. The Law of Consecration is key to putting the mortal body in position, through charity to meet with the Savior in the flesh. Oh how I love these scriptures. They elevate me and put peace, hope and love into my life that never has been so demonstrative. The Holy Ghost has new meaning for me. I realize its true function, its capability and necessity. I honor the love of our Father to create and organize and our Heavenly Mother to give life to every creation. I understand the woman much better and honor their endowed power. 

    I understand that the exhalted dominion of the Mother and Father is the only way creation will promulgate. I understand in being one. I feel very strongly in the one husband and one wife process to prepare for the exhaltative function, where all matter responds to its creator; and no dreamer or provacature will move me in the camp of multiple wives. The creative process is more than populating, it is giving life to ponderable matter.  I am a different being while studying this book. It helps me appreciate the Book of Mormon prophets, the people of Ammon and the understanding of the dreaded Nephite pride disease. The Nemenhah had the longest term of having all things in common longer than anyone else in history, even the city of Enoch.

    Now ask me what I really think! God Bless everyone.

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  47. TheRevenger Our belief system creates our own reality and it feels right it it fits into it. The Archives denounce polygamy as unworkable in the exhaltative process which I elaborated previously. It is not structured to fit into my belief system; I have now understanding and revere the concept of two unique and separate beings with entirely different eternal functions becoming one to invoke ponderable matter.

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  48. Sfort,
    Amen and amen!
    Your testimony has touched me and I am edified with your words. Your description of the those scriptures is spot on.
    I am not talented in writing so I have a hard time putting my feelings into words. This often leads to a lot of misunderstanding with people. Your words though are exactly how I feel when reading the nemenhah records. I am not able to always describe things correctly but I am grateful that you are! I too feel like a new being and a renewed man when reading and my respect for the Book of Mormon HEROS has grown immensely since reading! The ammonite people as well!
    All I can say is WOW! God is truly awesome! I am grateful to feel the spirit through your great words and description of that book! Thank you brother!

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  49. TheRevenger We have much work to do. God Bless

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  50. All things are spiritual before they are physical. I believe that when people feel the swelling motions, the enlargement of their souls, the enlightening of their minds they are receiving the first intimations of the spirit. This happens only spirit to spirit and no sure knowledge is given in the body of anything yet. Then when the spirit is full it pours over and baptizes the body. It is like a glass of water being poured through from the head to the toe or toe to head. The first intimations are still discernible and the tree is being nourished. The fruit comes when we are baptized and we receive the spirit of revelation. (Referencing alma 32)
    People still have been tricked into thinking that God gives warnings or even negative answers from feelings of discomfort or darkness. “I didn’t feel good about it”. This is NOT revelation from God. He never punishes us for pondering or asking or even considering something that just doesn’t seem right. How easy it has been for the adversary to keep people in their luxurious prisons. He just has to attack when they begin to question and they shrink back into their prison and think that Heavenly Father warned them. We must push through the darkness and not give in to the promptings of that evil spirit. We must seek God for each answer and wait upon a burning answer of light and truth and then it cannot be taken from us. Unless we give it willingly

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  51. Minority,
    Thanks for the response. I agree with everything you have said. Awhile ago I had a thought come to me or a saying rather.
    ” the more that I learn the darker it gets” that might sound bad but if you think about it it makes sense. When I first started learning things the adversary would attack me more and more and try and deceive me. It was a rough process. Obviously much more light came as well when I would learn. There is always equal opposition in all things so if things don’t feel right or you feel dark don’t trust in it or give any thought to it. God always works with light!
    As for your analogy to the water in the glass. I love that and have felt the spirit about it. I have had baptisms since my firsts experience and that happened to me where I had the swirling within me and was edified feeling a lesser portion of the spirit bit by bit then a huge out pouring would happen some time latter. I love and live for those experiences as I know you do as well. I want to experience a baptism like that with another person at the same time to share in the moment.
    The one thing I wanted to say though is the first time I had that baptism it was an awesome experience! I had a vision that came with it and the out pouring or overflowing experience that happened two times in the one experience but I had never had the swirling feeling or had felt the influence prior to that. Why do you think they is? It seems like what you describe happens to me now and thanks the process to obtaining something new but I have always wondered why it was so different for me the first time. I had felt the light for sure before but that was the only thing that prepared me for being filled and having that outpouring as it felt like a thousand gallons of warm water were dumped over me and through my body. I would like to hear you thoughts of why I hadn’t experienced anything of the spirit prior to that?

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  52. Minorityofone Thinking is good. Thus the flaxen cord begins

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  53. TheRevenger The cup we have is full of stones and water. To receive more living water, we have to discard the stones of unbelief so as to leave room for more water until our cup is filled. That is why unbelief is critical to shed, to let room for more light and knowledge. We have to ask critical questions before we receive. If there are no critical questions, there will be no revelation. The Holy Ghost doesn’t hang around sprinkling this knowledge everywhere, our spirit will not recognize. You can’t ask what you haven’t learned or don’t know. Therefore intelligence or the light of truth comes in our inquiry about new things we come across.

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  54. That is a good point! I used a common saying. “Tricked into thinking”. I would hope people would not make me an offender for a word.
    I encourage everyone to think, and only follow the Spirit. “Tricked into thinking”, was intended to mean “believe falsely”. The adversary does trick us into believing things that are simply not true.
    If there is one thing I preach that is to obtain the Holy Ghost and follow the Holy Ghost. Do not believe me or Sfort or Denver or anyone in ANYTHING unless the Holy Ghost bears witness.
    That goes for every book too. Every word must be verified by the Spirit. We don’t know but the next archive in the mentinah that is “translated” will not be full of lies and must not put our trust too strongly in anything. Do you NEED any book? Could God not have brought you to your very same knowledge and understanding without any books at all? Surely He could have.

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  55. I finished the first archive last night and I felt the spirit during a lot of the first archive.
    Since we are on the subject though I will point out one “flaxen cord” of the mentinah.
    One of the prophets writing said that those who receive these writings need to be careful because the writings might be our salvation. If that prophet existed he made a no no in saying that. Writings will never be our salvation. Jesus Christ is Salvation. Also another prophet spoke in the book and taught that our wives and children’s righteousness or faith and good works are one of the greatest compliments or fruits, and he taught (or was very close to teaching) that a righteous person would raise righteous children. Is this true?
    The greatest thing I received from the first archive is the fact that prophets mess up. We cannot take their word on anything. I do recommend everyone reading the mentinah if you are curious at all. What is the harm? We must trust that the Holy Ghost will not deceive us. If their are new truths in the book then brilliant! Let us glean what we can and leave the mistakes of men alone and any false teaching no matter how beautiful it sounds we can leave alone.

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  56. Minorityofone I never took anything literally. It all comes back to the word and the Word. If the writings bring us toward Christ such as the Book of Mormon does the they become attached to our desire which is all tied in to see the Savior in the Flesh. All things are circumscribed to one great whole.

    I feel the words, I don’t rely on them. If the words bring me to gratitude, love and perfect brightness, then they are of worth. The idea that the New and Everlasting Covenant is a “covenant” between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This consorted effort gives us a great advantage. Love permeates everything to abide this covenant. Words are a symbol to perpetuate your eternal understanding. That is why I don’t use a scripture to prove a point; I use them to establish a connection of the love of Eternal beings.

    That is why I have trouble with the Lectures on Faith as being from Joseph. Most of the lectures quoted frrom the New Testament only and alwaus prefaced the anser to a question with…I can prove it to you…It sounds like Joseph was trying too hard to let the words dictate the Holy Ghost instead of the words flowing unto us for edification.

    If a prophet of the Nemenhah is taken by the words and shows his desire for us to search them for Salvation, he was using his persuasion for the purpose of his desire. The wods flow unto us for the very purpose of connecting with our Savior. I think they knew that, but also remember that many of the prophets said throughout the volume, “if there be any mistakes, they are ours. Do not fault the message.” I have seen many mistakes, but it doesn’t take me away from the reason these writings have come forth. There will be others. You might ask yourself, why do I need these when I have the Book of Mormon? “I am waiting upon the Lord to send me further light and knowledge.” More light, more intelligence, deeper love for our Savior.

    I pass up the unimportant things, events, writings to wait for the flow of those words to expand the being. There is stuff here to do that. If we seek literality in all things, we lose ourselves outside of the Way.

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  57. This is a good discussion. I agree with your take on it and I do know that you read by the Spirit and that is how we can read every book! Obviously some books are more fully packed with truths than others. But we must give all credit to God for our growth and every blessing we gain is from God and not from men as mighty as they might appear.
    Who did Adam have to instruct him but the angels and God Himself (all things confirmed by the Holy Ghost). This is the same process we must go through for ourselves and we can learn that if we have a question we really can just go ask God! We don’t need to go find what others have written about it. Although God may guide us to others writings when they are a good tool for Him to use.
    I agree with your take on lectures of faith. Also I have noticed in a lot of joseph smiths later speeches he would repeatedly say things like. “I will show you that I am not a fallen prophet”. Or ” if I can speak the truth to you then you know I am still a prophet”. Right up to the speech where he seemed to be looney and said he had more to boast of than any man and held a church together when Jesus couldn’t… (I am not opposed to the idea that some of these things could have been tampered with). So many things to think on.
    I do always seek for greater light and I would hope all of us are doing just that. Jesus is the Light and the Truth. I am starting the 2nd archive today and will see where that takes me. Thanks my friend.

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  58. Just wanted to encourage whether you have looked it up or not, to go to weepingforzion.com. Even just to read the new post today. (No I am not advocating becoming a follower of that website I only have read a small fraction of the posts there).
    Read david whitmers prophecy. This is the first time I ever read it and I felt the spirit! Just please be open to even considering it!

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  59. Oh and if you haven’t yet read Tim’s new post! Awesome!

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  60. Minorityofone Have been reading Dan’s pieces for some time. His prose is magnificent. He awakes the sleeping!

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  61. Sorry I just saw this comment. That “swirling feeling”… I like it. Like millions of particles of glory pouring through us and igniting every cell in us. That is the spirit! The light can do wonderful things as well. I remember before I was baptized by fire I would sit in a testimony meeting and feel the light and my body would tremble and I knew the word had been planted in me. Also times of prayer just being completed enveloped in peace and comfort. The light is beautiful and we should always retain that, but like you said the Holy Ghost is a whole different ball game. It is unquestionable even if it lasts for one second because new intelligence is being woven into us.
    I did not feel the Holy Ghost until I was 19. I have read people’s experiences of feeling the Holy Ghost one time and It changed their lives! Sadly some people don’t learn they can have that same experience over and over again and they must! That is the spirit of revelation! Once we have received it for the first time we understand how people speak in tongues and prophecy etc when it is upon them. It is sheer power!

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  62. TheRevenger 
    Do you believe  women are treated differently and can not have the Holy Ghost witness to them? I dont see a lot of my sisters talking about a Holy Ghost conversion, You mentioned a Heavenly Mother.. I am very interested in Her. Why is She not taught in any Main stream religion especially the Mormons? Trying to sort this out. Do we have more than one Heavenly Mother? Now I have a mother on earth and two grandmothers who love me. Do I have more than One Heavenly Mother as well?

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  63. Island sister,
    I may not be The Revenger but I can give my opinion and offer my experience. Minority of One has a new post about Heavenly Mother you should read if you haven’t yet. I’ve been asked to bear my testimony there and will. First though I encourage you to take your questions to God, and to your Mother. I am a firm believer in prayer to Her as appropriate. What an easy way to learn the truth of it!
    As to whether there are multiple heavenly mothers I will address this in my testimony, but there’s little if anything written on the subject. Mormonism even has little to say. I have heard of grandfather Gods but have not address my own father about this in prayer.
    The most important of your questions though:
    For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.
    2 Nephi 26:33 http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/26?lang=eng
    Yes. Absolutely women can receive the Holy Ghost witness to them, from small things to very great!! Nothing prevents women from this. And there just isn’t much more that I need to say about that.

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  64. Victor V There asre records available of people who knew more truth than us and lived accordingly in peace. All “came upon the Way” to see the Savior’s face and to be instructed by. all relations, spirits of just men and women made perfect, and angels. This was so common because they lived the law of consecration. This law helps us to see the face of God. Now in relation to Heavenly Mother, When you have raised yourself on the rung of the ladder to bring you into exhaltation and to be a creator, this cannot happen without the Mother attending with you. She IS the mother of all living. She brings life to poderable matter. God the Father cannot be perfect without Her. Neither is She perfect without Him. Th’t just a temporal phrase. He organizes, develops and helps matter perceive, but She brings life unto all things. Satan wants mankind believe that they, men, are stronger and dominate and is the hub of all things. This is a lie and is not substantiated by any scripture. 

    I am grateful for these records. They shed light onto a dark world. Even our scriptures have been tainted by the male versions that come from the dark view of their status. It is so clear concerning men and women in these records. Spiritual heads of villages and cities were men and women, depending on their councils who were men and women. Women only chose the judges.

    The records shed light on the priesthood given to all women prior to coming to earth because of their natures and they need not have conferral. Their ability to give life and the shedding of blood and water more closely resembles the sacrifice of the Savior. Men need to see their ensample to develop their natures. They, the female, however were ordained on earth. The male, because of his nature, needed conferral because he didn’t automatically have it while coming to earth; not disparaging Alma’s verses describing the foreordination of men based on their good works. It has nothing to do with conferral on earth, just foreordination of a future knowing event. My light has been broadened, while at the same time not shedding eternal truth, just belief system conjured up by a telestial organization of fear that man has devised. The eternal doctrine and truth have been preserved in me. I am a grateful man and I will praise my God forever because of these records.

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  65. @islandsister,
    I know you already know the answers to all of these questions you have posted. I know you have felt the Holy Ghost and have had them confirmed to you!
    I know that there are many many women that are more spiritual than men. I have seen first hand my sister in law who is amazing and she feels and knows the Holy Ghost better than I do. Women are very very important in these last days and have a priesthood power already within them that does not have to be given for it has already been inherited.
    Idk if what I write makes much sense but I am with victor and the others when they say we all need to pray and receive a confirmation about all things no matter who we are man or woman and I believe you have with much of this!

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