Do Ye Also to Them Likewise, Part 1


Matt712Matthew 7:12

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Is the Golden Rule compatible with buying and selling?

Is the Golden Rule compatible with trading or bartering?

I would encourage commenters to delve as deeply as they can with these questions, and see what gets unearthed.

I won’t be joining the discussion, due to privacy concerns with Livefyre. So no need to worry about me stomping on tender hearts or heads. 😉

14 Responses

  1. The Golden Rule is compatible with everything. It should guide our actions and our intentions. The Spirit does not condemn as we fall short. It helps us to be mindful of this precept in all our daily doings.

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  2. History has proven that unless you have all things in common and truly live the law of consecration, no group of persons can receive what the Lord wants them to receive. The telestial has them bound.The golden rule has been around for a long, long time. What do we have to show for it? Our hearts and minds truly live the Golden Rule when the Law of Consecration is present in its pure form.

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  3. I guess it depends on whether or not we want to have things given to us for free. If so, then we must give things away for free.

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  4. Major problems likely arise when everyone gives things away for free, however.  Specifically, If everything is given away for free, nothing will be priced.  Prices tell producers how much to produce–as prices increase, suppliers want to supply more.

    Without a price system, no one will know what to produce.

    While my analysis is not a rigorous proof, maybe we should not want to have things given to us for free.

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    • Kia Ora from this Lehite, Lamanite,Nephite from New Zealand. For me the Law of Consecration was practiced amongst my ancestors in it’s purity as expressed in Our Family Records (Book of Mormon) and even after our family apostatised much of it was still customary amongst us when Gentile Christian Missionaries re-acquainted us with The Golden Rule memories of Christ (Rongo-Ma Tane or The Man (Prince) of Peace) from our Family records The Old Testament Followed by Gentile LDS Missionaries with more sacred memories in the D&C Pearl of Grt Price and other revelations of our modern Gentile Prophets and Apostles. The Law of Consecration or The United Order was revisited by the Gentiles through Joseph but lasted only a short while as at its base it was totally out of sinc with Gentile Europe and America political paradigms. In my opinion where the Gentiles (LDS Theists & NON LDS Theists)have gone astray is that they believe that the PROFIT MOTIVE is the driving force of their phenomenal economic success which is (in my opinion) totally false. In the 1st Place the CHRISTIAN Gentiles stole by military force the REAL WEALTH of God’s Children who were already in Possession of large portions of their FATHERS ESTATES and the Native Amerindians knew that “The earth is the lords in the fulness thereof and he has CREATED ENOUGH AND TO SPARE to satisfy the NEEDS AND WORTHWHILE WANTS of his each and every child who had an automatic claim upon their equity share of their fathers estates. God being self governing taught his children correct principles and allowed therm to GOVERN THEMSELVES THUS THE PURPOSE of true government is to act as stewards (Kai Tiaki) of OUR FATHERS ESTATES. “Consider the sparrow they neither sow nor harvest yet the Lord (of these estates) provides for them and is mindful if just one feather fell to the ground
      Adam Smiths Wealth of Nations was written with a Theistic Bias and until we understand that bias we will continue the terrible carnage the we God’s children heap upon each other out of sheer protection of what little the Atheistic Politics allow us to obtain and survive and keep us navel gazing or head down and tail up forced to grub a little sustenance from mother earth with no time to look up to our Father who owns it all.
      The stone cut without hands is both the Religious and Political Governments established by our Father thru his son Jesus Christ who delegated the Power of Government to COUNCILS not to ONE MAN CHEIF EXECUTIVE such as Stake Presidents or President of The Twelve or President of The Corporation of THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS OFTEN REFERRED TO AS THE PROPHET. Such a concept as that is totally GENTILE as differs from we Amerindians and Maori descendants of Joseph Ephraim and Manasseh through Lehi and Ishmael.
      As a remnant of Israel I hereby stand any and every person on NOTICE THAT if you have been EXCOMMUNICATED that YOU ARE NOT THE PROPER PERSON OR AGENT to expound upon or give counsel regarding any apostasy by any member of The Government of God weather an Apostle or a deacon as you will cause the unwitting to follow you away from the church INTO WHAT??????
      Come clean. Write you revelations stating quite clearly that Peter James and John have come to you under the instructions of Jesus Christ himself and “Ordained” you to re-establish the government of God which was revealed Never to be given to another people and will last until the rightful heir Jesus Christ will return as Lord of Lord over the Religious Government seated in Jerusalem and King of King’s of the political Government the seat of which will be the New Jerusalem where a few righteous Gentiles (not excomunicated persons) will Join with We Remnants of Jacob to build the city of Zion.
      So I raise my voice to all my brothers and sisters who find themselves at odds with the church. I truly understand and agree with much of your very deeply researched discoveries a much of them can be proven beyond reasonable doubt I arrive at this warning as one who like the Amerindian is till being oppressed by GENTILES that I know what its like to seek redress that falls upon deff very deaf ears.
      I plead with you to learn The Church is Governed by councils. Take your “matters” needing redress and redemption to your local council (Ward P/Hood Executive Council. If you don’t agree with their findings you have right of appeal to the Stake High Council and if you disagree you have right of appeal to the Seat of the 1st Presidency and the twelve from which there is no appeal. That is the Word of The Lord as far as those issues are concerned. If you claim to have done all that AND I DON’T BELIEVE YOU and you fail to present clear evidence of your claim then I as a member can summons you to a Council Court for you to prove your claims in SOLEMN COUNCIL ASSEMBLED. If you have been excommunicated cannot do the foregoing but as a citizen of a political government I can summons you to appear before I Jury of our peers in a civil court under the Common Law to answer to whatever charges I make claim. (slander, defamation of character and other breaches of the Golden Rule) Naturally I would have to exhaust all the avenues of reconciliation expounded by the LAW GIVER Jesus Christ before I take civil action.
      Under the law there is always Recourse and Redemption. Taking to the internet is not the Godly Constitutional way and it feeds the hungry hordes of hell who have no love for The Lord and even less for you. Without frivolity or ill will I invite you to learn the Godly Constitutional methods that our Father has put into place to resolve your real and from my own research valid honorable claims of ordinary fallible mortal P/Hood holders error of judgement. Many of you claim a familiarity between yourselves and God so I wont’ reveal to you where to find the constitutional principles of reconciliation believing that if you are sincere and honest in your efforts to reconcile your failing ailing brothers or sisters that God’ will reveal all this to you and reconciliation will be in his hands.
      Respectfully your Lehite, Nephite Lamanite Brother Paumea McKay. Kia Ora./

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    • Kia Ora from this Lehite, Lamanite,Nephite from New Zealand. For me the Law of Consecration was practiced amongst my ancestors in it’s purity as expressed in Our Family Records (Book of Mormon) and even after our family apostatised much of it was still customary amongst us when Gentile Christian Missionaries re-acquainted us with The Golden Rule memories of Christ (Rongo-Ma Tane or The Man (Prince) of Peace) from our Family records The Old Testament Followed by Gentile LDS Missionaries with more sacred memories in the D&C Pearl of Grt Price and other revelations of our modern Gentile Prophets and Apostles. The Law of Consecration or The United Order was revisited by the Gentiles through Joseph but lasted only a short while as at its base it was totally out of sinc with Gentile Europe and America political paradigms. In my opinion where the Gentiles (LDS Theists & NON LDS Theists)have gone astray is that they believe that the PROFIT MOTIVE is the driving force of their phenomenal economic success which is (in my opinion) totally false. In the 1st Place the CHRISTIAN Gentiles stole by military force the REAL WEALTH of God’s Children who were already in Possession of large portions of their FATHERS ESTATES and the Native Amerindians knew that “The earth is the lords in the fulness thereof and he has CREATED ENOUGH AND TO SPARE to satisfy the NEEDS AND WORTHWHILE WANTS of his each and every child who had an automatic claim upon their equity share of their fathers estates. God being self governing taught his children correct principles and allowed therm to GOVERN THEMSELVES THUS THE PURPOSE of true government is to act as stewards (Kai Tiaki) of OUR FATHERS ESTATES. “Consider the sparrow they neither sow nor harvest yet the Lord (of these estates) provides for them and is mindful if just one feather fell to the ground
      Adam Smiths Wealth of Nations was written with a Theistic Bias and until we understand that bias we will continue the terrible carnage the we God’s children heap upon each other out of sheer protection of what little the Atheistic Politics allow us to obtain and survive and keep us navel gazing or head down and tail up forced to grub a little sustenance from mother earth with no time to look up to our Father who owns it all.
      The stone cut without hands is both the Religious and Political Governments established by our Father thru his son Jesus Christ who delegated the Power of Government to COUNCILS not to ONE MAN CHEIF EXECUTIVE such as Stake Presidents or President of The Twelve or President of The Corporation of THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS OFTEN REFERRED TO AS THE PROPHET. Such a concept as that is totally GENTILE as differs from we Amerindians and Maori descendants of Joseph Ephraim and Manasseh through Lehi and Ishmael.
      As a remnant of Israel I hereby stand any and every person on NOTICE THAT if you have been EXCOMMUNICATED that YOU ARE NOT THE PROPER PERSON OR AGENT to expound upon or give counsel regarding any apostasy by any member of The Government of God weather an Apostle or a deacon as you will cause the unwitting to follow you away from the church INTO WHAT??????
      Come clean. Write you revelations stating quite clearly that Peter James and John have come to you under the instructions of Jesus Christ himself and “Ordained” you to re-establish the government of God which was revealed Never to be given to another people and will last until the rightful heir Jesus Christ will return as Lord of Lord over the Religious Government seated in Jerusalem and King of King’s of the political Government the seat of which will be the New Jerusalem where a few righteous Gentiles (not excomunicated persons) will Join with We Remnants of Jacob to build the city of Zion.
      So I raise my voice to all my brothers and sisters who find themselves at odds with the church. I truly understand and agree with much of your very deeply researched discoveries a much of them can be proven beyond reasonable doubt I arrive at this warning as one who like the Amerindian is till being oppressed by GENTILES that I know what its like to seek redress that falls upon deff very deaf ears.
      I plead with you to learn The Church is Governed by councils. Take your “matters” needing redress and redemption to your local council (Ward P/Hood Executive Council. If you don’t agree with their findings you have right of appeal to the Stake High Council and if you disagree you have right of appeal to the Seat of the 1st Presidency and the twelve from which there is no appeal. That is the Word of The Lord as far as those issues are concerned. If you claim to have done all that AND I DON’T BELIEVE YOU and you fail to present clear evidence of your claim then I as a member can summons you to a Council Court for you to prove your claims in SOLEMN COUNCIL ASSEMBLED. If you have been excommunicated cannot do the foregoing but as a citizen of a political government I can summons you to appear before I Jury of our peers in a civil court under the Common Law to answer to whatever charges I make claim. (slander, defamation of character and other breaches of the Golden Rule) Naturally I would have to exhaust all the avenues of reconciliation expounded by the LAW GIVER Jesus Christ before I take civil action.
      Under the law there is always Recourse and Redemption. Taking to the internet is not the Godly Constitutional way and it feeds the hungry hordes of hell who have no love for The Lord and even less for you. Without frivolity or ill will I invite you to learn the Godly Constitutional methods that our Father has put into place to resolve your real and from my own research valid honorable claims of ordinary fallible mortal P/Hood holders error of judgement. Many of you claim a familiarity between yourselves and God so I wont’ reveal to you where to find the constitutional principles of reconciliation believing that if you are sincere and honest in your efforts to reconcile your failing ailing brothers or sisters that God’ will reveal all this to you and reconciliation will be in his hands.
      Respectfully your Lehite, Nephite Lamanite Brother Paumea McKay. Kia Ora.

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  5. Maybe a clearer interpretation would be ” let every man esteem his brother as himself” (D&C 38:24)

    This scripture can be expressed as a utility function.  If a typical, self-interested utility function is, for person i:

    U_i =

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  6. Not all buying and selling is exploitative or violates the Golden Rule. I visit McDonald’s because I don’t want to take the time to make my own food! That’s the bargain! Same with buying a car. I’m not going to make a car myself! I’m paying someone else for the service.

    But some forms of buying/bartering can be usurious. Oppressing the hireling in his wages, forcing someone to buy or sell against his “free” will, manipulating markets to gain “unfair” advantage — all these are sinful.  

    We know we’ve struck a “fair” bargain when we would take either deal: “I’ll give you $200 for that gun or I’ll sell you that gun for $200. Either way, I’m happy.”

    Of course, people “in the business” can’t make such deals. (There <i>has</i> to be “markup”, or “profit”, for the businessman; otherwise he can’t stay in business!) If the customer is willing to make the deal, even <i>knowing</i> what the businessman’s profit will be, <i>then</i> it’s a “good” deal — if the agreement is entered into without duress or coercion. But if knowing the “markup” would “spoil” the deal, then the deal is probably not a “fair” one, but (to some extent) exploitative.

    Our world <i>thrives</i> on “exploitative” arrangements, markets and commodities. We love to find “deals” where we buy low and sell high — the greater the disparity the better! (Especially if the next buyer is none the wiser!) We love to offer products people can’t live without at <i>any</i> price — like health care, or electricity.

    But a “Zion economy” wouldn’t work that way. At the very least, “profit”, if any, would be known to all parties. People would “produce” only what they freely wanted to produce…and consume only what they needed…no more, no less. 

    Of course, that runs counter to ALL human nature…so Zion societies have seldom, if ever, endured in this world.

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  7. When confronted with any difficult question, I have learned the answer is always to do as God commands through the Holy Ghost, in that moment. And when unsure, make the best decision you can, with caution and with courage.
    In this case I’d look to Jesus as an example. He commanded his disciples to buy bread in town for them to eat. I won’t be critical of him. The Zion society after Christ’s visit to the Americas engaged in trading. Both examples used to surprise me. It appears to me that the law of consecration was lived through “capitalism”. (I can’t say I’m a fan of socialism and what it did to the country I left behind.)
    I am of the assumption that Zion can be reached through capitalism and through what some term as Peter’s “Christian socialism”, but ONLY through consistent obedience to the Spirit of Christ. Practice proper ethics and I think it would succeed.
    I welcome others’ opinions as I would also like to learn more.

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  8. What if you gave a large bag of rice to the father of a hungry family, thinking he would use it to take care of his loved ones. Yet, he then takes the bag rice and separates it into portions and sells it to his hungry children and wife.  That sounds absurd and we would be disgusted by that man’s actions. How is that any different from us who take the resources God has bestowed and cut them up and then sell them to our brothers and sister?

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  9. There is much more to the “Golden Rule” than just exchanging physical products.  I think how we treat each other above and beyond physical exchange is probably the most important. I don’t know of anyone that does not prefer being treated kindly. We like to feel we are understood and that we are valued.  
    There is so much cruelty in the world including the mean words that are often expressed through “Social Media”. In many ways, we seem to have forgotten how to be civil to each other.  When we don’t respect each other as children of God, then the exchange of physical exchange can become distorted also.
    There is a “Law of Exchange” that was brought to my attention several years ago.  If I do something for you or give you something, then it seems that “Fair Exchange” or “The Golden Rule” would suggest that I do something for you or give you something of exact or equal value.  
    This is not true.  For instance…. a mother and father work all day long serving their family, however, a child can not give equal exchange or effort of equal value.  It is impossible.  Perhaps a young child’s exchange is to take out the garbage and do the dishes three times a week.  As the child grows older, the equal value of his exchange increases.  Now, the child is “Out of Exchange” if his parents do all the work and he does nothing to contribute to the whole at the level he is capable of.
    Generally you can detect a person who is “Out of Exchange” because they whine, and expect more without doing anything for it. They never seem to think they are being treated fairly.  The parents that do not require a “Fair Exchange” are raising children with criminal minds.  “You give… I take.”  
    We talk a lot about building Zion and Law of Consecration… and if we think it represents  “Equal Exchange” then it will be a long time before Zion is established.  Like a child, there will be those who will never be able to contribute equally, but can contribute to the whole according to gifts and abilities.
    I think the Golden rule applies when we get over ourselves and give and contribute with a full heart to the best of our talents and abilities, valuing everyone’s individual offering.
    Heavens knows, I would not want to be compare or treated poorly, or suffer lack because I don’t have what it takes to be a doctor.  However, there is much I could do to contribute to the doctor’s well-being and happiness.  I can cook up one mean pot of spaghetti.  I can plant and maintain a garden. I can build the Dr’s  website, or teach his children Art.  He can give my family medial care. Each talent has value.
    This week we are doing a humanitarian project in our Ward.  Folks are donating food or money toward filling 20 Thanksgiving boxes that will be given to those less fortunate.  I have been given as much as $200.00 and as little as $3.00 toward the effort.  The woman who gave me the $3.00, sheepishly put the money into my coat pocket and said, “I wish I could give more.”  To me… the “Law of Exchange was satisfied.  Each contributed what they felt in their heart they could do.  
    So… back to compatibility of buying and selling or trading and bartering. In this Telestial World, it is obvious I cannot sell you a Jaguar for the price of a Ford. However, I can sell you a Ford that runs well and does not have hidden flaws, that I do not reveal, at a fair price and not take advantage of you.  I honor your circumstances.  I can also sell you the Jaguar for a price that is fair and not gouge you just because I think you can afford it. I honor your circumstances as I would like my circumstances honored.
    In both cases, you were valued and treated with respect.  The Golden rule was applied to both.
    I’m not sure the Law of Consecration means “Equal”….. but an honest “Law of Exchange” according to our talents and gifts.
    Just my two bits.

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  10. The Law of Consecration is given in the Nemenhah records as a template going forward. Everyone has industry according to their talent to produce it. They provide enough for their needs and draw from the storehouse what else they need. Everytime you produce, you do so with surplus. This is taken to the storehouse. Everyone receives that which they need. The Storehouse is for this purpose. The trading that goes on between cities is decided what value each article has for those who need it. It could be baskets for corn, etc.

    There is no capitalism. This doesn’t exist. Profit is not sigularly retained. This creates inequity. We have been told this is the best way through indoctrination. Socialism always segregates those in power to receive the most. It is Satan’s template. The reords of the Nemenhah provide an amazing template of living where people had peace for hundreds of years. It is combined with seeing God’s face in the High Place. When this is combined with everything in common, there is no strife. You truly then become the Lord’s people.

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  11. Trailbikeboy What a fascinating idea! I never thought of that!

    However, I do something very much like that. I give my kids allowances (in return for work they do around the house) and then “charge” them for things they want and need. If we go out to dinner, they pay for their meal. When they need new clothes, they have to buy them. If they want a candy bar, they must buy it with their own money. 

    Funny thing, when they ask for something but learn they have to pay for it (rather than get it for free), they think twice about it…and often say “never mind”. It’s not “worth” it to them now. Why? Because it now has a price.

    It is important to learn that things come with a price. Otherwise, we’d all be like children throwing food in the government cafeteria, wasting without appreciating what was given to us. 

    In a Zion economy, would someone voluntarily spend a lifetime (or a good portion of it) picking up and processing the poo? I think so. People would attend to whatever interests them — whatever the need was — for however long it was needed (or until they grew weary of it). How does one allocate resources, however, without prices? 

    Everyone wants a candy bar…until someone has to pay for it.

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  12. Sometimes we think we know better…
    15) Wherefore, be ever watchful that you lift not yourselves up in the pride of your hearts. It is to prevent this kind of pride that, when the Lord visits a person and declares unto them that the Holy Ghost has affected the sealing and made perfect their election, rarely does that person reveal the same to anyone. And, as often as not, the Lord Himself does command that they tell no one.16) But what? Ought this not to be the greatest of ensamples and of great use in instruction – that a person may in actuality attain to that great end and become the Friend of Christ? Wherefore then, shall a person who has received of the fullness refrain from teaching it? 17) It is because much pride comes of such teaching. Or how may a man suggest that his neighbor may come unto Christ in fullness by looking upon another man in the flesh? 18) Yea, do you wish to become like unto Christ Himself? Then look upon me, for I have received of Him the fullness. Yea, my calling and election are made sure and perfect. Yea, look upon me for your ensample, for the Holy Ghost has sealed me His. Yea, and you too may receive of this great blessing.19) All of these utterances may be perfect and correct in truth, but shall your neighbor bear such from you? Likewise, shall a neighbor who believes not what you believe be inclined to repent because of your description of your own worthiness? Nay, think it not. It may well be that your neighbor may be brought to contemplate his own ways by comparison of yours to his, but never by you making a speech of the differences. 20) Behold, predict not your own salvation, but wait upon the Lord in such things. He alone knows the end from the beginning. He alone can look into your private thoughts and see your nakedness. Wherefore, He alone may know the full measure of what you shall require to become perfected and to abide this estate and others. Wherefore, since judgment is not within you, leave all such unto One who is mighty to save. 21) But make judgment upon that which is before you, to act or to be acted upon. For, because of the light that is in you by and through the creation, you have wherewith to judge unto right action and unto right thought. Yea, you have wherewith to judge good from evil, but not wherewith to judge men and women. 22) Or will you say: Come follow me and I will lead you into salvation? Behold, the more part of the Saints in the last days shall lay such a thing upon their shepherds. And behold, their shepherds shall take it up lamenting that the Saints have required it of them. Yea, they shall lay claim that salvation comes of them and of the church, and that none shall have it but through them. 23) Behold, this is the bitterest of pride. For, they seek to wrest from the Creator that which is His alone. Yea, they lay claim to judgment well beyond their stewardship and place the responsibility for it upon the worthiness of the Saints. Yea, the shepherds, and even some of they whom the Saints shall call Apostle and Prophet in the last days, shall take up this discourse and lay claim to the power to seal and to save. And this shall be a pride that puffs itself even to the extent that all the Saints shall be taught that the Lord has given over such things to His servants. 24) Be forewarned in this, you very few who shall be the instrument in the Lord’s hand to bring again Zion. Behold, the power to seal is had by the Holy Spirit of Promise alone and, although you may call men to make expression of the principle by way of ceremony, yet the power by which men and women are sealed up unto Christ, a power to which they lay claim, is had by the Holy Ghost only. 25) And also the power to save is had by the Creator alone. Yea, salvation comes of Him who has the power, the might, the glory and the dominion necessary to save. Do you think you, puny man, may lay claim to such things? Shall you claim that this entity or that shall have such power? Then you are numbered among those who raise up gods of stone to worship them.

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