Could You Gaze Into Heaven


BeyondThisWorldOne of the basic tenets of the Mormon faith is personal revelation. We cherish the idea. We talk about it. We teach it. We tell everyone it is the way to know something for ourselves. Yet, when someone receives revelation that is contrary to the LDS tradition, the immediate response from LDS members and leaders is, “You have been deceived. You need to repent of this terrible sin.”

Scriptural Foundation

D&C 9:8 – “But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.”

“Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject” (TPJS, p. 324)

Thoughts to Ponder

“Before any gathering, we must be put through a refining process. We must grow; we must rise up first, before God will gather us to Zion.” (Denver Snuffer, Preserving the Restoration, p. 21)

“If you don’t lay hold upon this, if you don’t move this forward, if you don’t rise up, I suppose He will find another people. But you ought to accept this invitation, and then come to the feast He offers us.” (Denver Snuffer, Preserving the Restoration, p. 39)

A New Prophet in Town

I have been reading, studying, pondering and praying about the Phoenix lecture for the last few months. I think I’ve read it or listened to it at least five times. I have highlighted and marked key phrases and pondered the reasoning behind some of the thoughts expressed. I have come to the conclusion the lecture was meant to be an invitation – powerfully expressed – for us to rise up.

In one sense, it’s a continuation of what was started in the first book, “The Second Comforter: Conversing With the Lord Through the Veil,” which Denver was asked by the Lord to write. In another sense, what was delivered in this last series of lectures is more detailed, more explicit and even more of a message from the Lord to us now, in our day, to prepare ourselves for Zion.

Agency to Accept or Reject

My testimony of the Book of Mormon and of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ was rejected thousands of times when I served as a missionary in Central America. That did not change my own feelings about Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon, which was obtained through personal revelation in a manner I could not deny, confirmed after years of intense study and deep prayer.

Likewise, my actions of the last few months, in resigning from the LDS Church and in being baptized anew as a sign or covenant between me and God that I accepted both the message and the messenger, the sacred feelings which have come into my heart as I have studied and prayed about the message, are undeniable. I have not been deceived. I am not looking beyond the mark.

Saddened by Your Decision

I re-read the letter from my bishop the other night, delivered after I resigned. He and I had been meeting off and on for almost a year prior to the action I took. We counseled together. He was very careful to listen to my answers to his questions, but I could tell he didn’t get it. He could not relate to what I was sharing – that I had had received revelation about the message I had studied.

In the letter to me he expressed that “the Lord as well as your ward family are saddened by your decision.” I took that question to the Lord. I asked Him if He was saddened by my decision. He said yes. I asked why. He said He was saddened because He knew the pain and suffering through which I would pass because of the misunderstandings of friends who feel rejected and confused.

Beyond the Realm of Possibility

I too am saddened. I no longer feel oppressed as I did before I resigned, but I do feel saddened. There are so few who will take the time to seriously consider the possibility God could send a messenger in our day from outside the hierarchy of the LDS Church. It is simply outside the realm of any possibility. There is nothing in the LDS tradition or teachings to account for this.

Or is there? We have the obvious accounts of Abinadi and Samuel the Nephite in the Book of Mormon, but in modern LDS history, there is no precedent. In fact, such an idea of a prophet being sent with a message from anyone other than the fifteen who lead the LDS Church is considered ludicrous, crazy, an obvious attempt to deceive and could only be a false prophet.

Ye Shall Know Them By Their Fruits

One of my associates from when I served on the High Council in another stake, who now serves as a Stake President, reached out to me both publically and privately. He wrote he truly wanted to understand what motivated someone like me to resign from the LDS Church. He is a convert from Judaism and teaches religion classes in the Church Educational System. He knows his stuff.

Yet, as far as I know, he would not or did not read any of the material published by Denver. In my current stake, another CES employee and member of my High Priest’s quorum wrote me privately, expressing his concern I had been deceived. He said he “knew something” of this Denver Snuffer and had come to the conclusion he was a crackpot, and was no prophet of God.

Persuasion is Not the Only Tool

I wrote back in an attempt to persuade, but knew it was a futile endeavor. A friend sent me a text yesterday. He knows my story well. He wrote something profound. “I do not believe you have to persuade … I believe all you have to do is set a good example.” I trust this friend. The thought was inspired. The Lord told me so as I read it. He’s right. Some people will never be persuaded.

The Lord has given us other tools in exercising the priesthood. They include long-suffering, as well as gentleness, meekness, love unfeigned, kindness and pure knowledge. I had forgotten about that last tool. Pure knowledge is powerful, even if it cannot be shared except when the Lord prompts or permits it. Pure knowledge gives us confidence in our position on something.

Plato’s Allegory of the Cave

The-CaveIn the allegory of the cave, the prisoners chained to the floor of the cave see only shadows on the wall of the cave from actors moving in front of a fire. Those who have escaped the cave see life as it really is, in all its full color and glory. How can you relate such views to those who see only shadows? You can’t. They can’t relate. They think you’re crazy. Pure knowledge is so similar.

Even those in power and authority, some of whom may have escaped the chains at one time and seen the light are unable to relate to the light that you say you have seen. Your knowledge is not their knowledge. Even though you may be seeking the same thing, unless the Lord reveals it to them, they cannot know what you know. In fact, the Lord sometimes must tell us what we know.

Timing in This Life is Everything

I cannot relate what I have seen. I have tried and failed. I must now rely on other tools of the priesthood beside persuasion. Long-suffering was demonstrated by the Lord in his trials before Pilate and Herod. He was the meekest of men, yet He was a God. How He loved us and loves us still. Oh, the knowledge he tried to share but was so misunderstood, even by his own disciples.

I once worked with a Controller who was fired because he spent all his time developing these wonderful spreadsheets but would not share them with others, nor explain how they could be used. I know there were other reasons he was fired, but this was one expressed by management. I only pray the Lord will help me share what is appropriate when He deems it is time to do so.

They Also Serve Who Only Stand and Wait

In the meantime, I shall continue to seek pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge my soul, without guile. Do you know the meaning of the word? It means to be without evil intent. To be without guile is to be honest and willing to share, even to a fault, believing others should see the honesty of the knowledge shared. Sadly, the traditions of men have blinded this generation.

I am nobody. I am a fool. I am a witness, but am not called to share that witness. That task has been assigned to others. I hope the refining process through which I am called to pass will be sufficient to prepare me to gather with those who are called upon to build Zion, when the day comes. For mark my words, the day will come, and it may be sooner than you or I think today.

48 Responses

  1. Welcome to my world, Tim. I’ve been living your “sadness” for 30 years, albeit for a bit different reasons, as you know.

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    • The good thing is there are small pockets of individuals here and there who “get it,” who sees things a little differently and who now gather in small groups on the Internet and occasionally in conferences. The Electric Universe conference in Phoenix next year looks to be one of the most promising for bringing legitimacy to the ideas proposed by Thornhill, Talbott, Velikovsky you and many others. I’m especially looking forward to hearing more about the analysis of the Rosetta mission. Why scientists hang onto the theory of “Dirty Snowballs” is beyond me. It is so similar to the “traditions of the fathers.” We are not as alone in our thinking as we sometimes suppose but are still small in number.

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      • You’re not alone! I stand with both of you.

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  2. Tim–

    Thank you for the example of righteous persuasion you have been to me. I’ll be honest, I didn’t know of anyone like you who demonstrates the principle so well until I read from your blog. That example has helped me enormously in my relationship with my girlfriend and future marriage; In the past few days she has lifted me where I could not get myself, expounded scripture, sensed spirits, seen future events, and refocused my attention on The Lord. (Funny you mention that allegory of the cave, she has been studying it for some time now.) If I had not learned simply by reading what you’ve written here I would not have enabled her to be free in her thoughts and actions enough to be as blessed and keep her. I owe a great deal to your submissiveness to Christ, and His righteousness to you and I. Thank you. Thank you so much.

    I can also see you continue to be blessed in your own marriage. At this point I don’t think I’d have been able to do as well as you have. You are to be commended.

    Anyway. I agree with you about how much exactly we need to prepare ourselves before building Zion. I don’t think it should come by haste or by flight… That has been the mistake of the past. Each of us has to go through some very detailed personal faith building and repentance before qualifying.

    I’m glad you can feel some more solitude after your resignation. I don’t think I could really be considered part of the true blue LDS community where I’m at but I do still feel the oppression of not being a member of their crowd. It will be nicer to move away someday.

    Pure knowledge comes from having an eye single to the glory of God… Christ is all we have. Therefore our focus should be solely on him. I am a witness of the fact that looking to Him dispels all doubt and fear. Our precious souls are safe in His arms. The more we struggle towards him, the more of His brilliant, intense, and beautiful love we feel. Thanks for reminding me of this in the post. It came at a good time.

    By the way…I’m no expert on the English language, but I believe “Abinidi” is really spelled “Abinadi”… Or is this a translation I don’t know of? 🙂

    Victor

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    • Hi Victor. Thank you for your kind remarks. The funny thing with MS Word, in which I compose: It doesn’t know the difference between Abinidi and Abinadi. It marks them both as unknown words, easy to overlook when it’s always marked wrong anyway. Thanks for pointing that out. It has been corrected. God bless you in your upcoming marriage. Thanks for reading my blog posts and sharing your comments.

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  3. Tim,

    We have read and felt that the scriptures are to be likened unto ourselves. The inevitable mistake in all developing religions from movements is that there begins to be groupings. That almost eliminates the previous point I made. They feign gifts of the Spirit, but don’t expound on them. They preach the Holy Ghost as a label more than an event.

    Saints this and Saints that. It is the devil’s copy of salvation. Your journey has been individually fraught with courage and sadness, but nevertheless individual. Groups never receive enlightenment like individuals. That said, the people of Enoch individually adhered to Celestial law which made them one. Grouping never created oneness. That comes from individually moving.

    The Saints are in a self-knowing state, where it leads to group think. There is so much we don’t know. Once we realize this, we then set out for enlightenment. Time will pass and you will be so busy with your new tasks, that all this will seem a blur. Heads up my friend. The future is bright!

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  4. Thank you Tim for this post. I am on the flip side of discipleship. On the dissent/abase-weep, worry, and warn. I am grateful for all the tender mercies of the Lord. He keeps reminding me that his ways are higher then mine nd to always trust him.

    Case in point: On Sat. I was baking a bunch of dinner rolls to take to a funeral at the church for a sweet sister who past away earlier in the week. I was running really late and didn’t get there until 40 minutes after it started. I was mentally beating myself up for not getting there on time and being there in the chapel for the whole funeral. I stayed in the kitchen and listened to it while I helped prepare for the family dinner. As I walked in the hallway to go in the gym I saw the ex-daughter-in-law walking down the hallway towards me. In that moment I knew I was at the right place at the right time. I was there to console her. My own memories of my Aunt’s Funeral from over 4 years ago came back into my mind. I was a vessel unto the Lord to help this women. I was able to discern her thoughts and feeling.

    The Lord has made it clear that I am to stay put. I am to be long-suffering and be gentle & meek and to only speak when guided by the spirit. I tend to be an outspoken person. The Lord has been helping me to keep things to myself more. This is why I am grateful to your blog and others and a dear sister in my ward that I am allowed to share things with and to learn from you and others as well.

    Yikes, this is a really long comment. Sorry about that. Until next time. Your sister in Christ, Sally

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    • Sally

      Thank you for sharing. The Spirit confirmed to me that you were indeed a vessel in that opportunity. Thanks for your testimony.

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  5. The cave allegory has been on my mind lately. Plato is saying to fellow philosophers that they should be like Socrates and be the people that return to the darkness to help others see the light (advantage them). They should not be satisfied with just enjoying their understanding, but should rather seek to help others achieve understanding too. Plato says that philosophers who are enlightened will most likely remember their old friends in the cave and “felicitate [themselves] on the change, and pity them.” While Plato is saying that this is what they will likely do, he is also saying that they should want to do this, too.

    A paper by Chauncey Riddle entitled “Language, Conversation, Sanity and Reality”, which states “the thesis of this paper is that human being consists of conversations, and that the ability of a person to converse with other beings to the advantage of the other beings is the measure of the person’s sanity”, provided me with illumination on this idea of receiving leading to advantaging others.

    http://chaunceyriddle.com/philosophy-of-language/language-conversation-sanity-and-reality/

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    • Beautiful!

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  6. Tim,
    Thank you so much for this post. You are always so uplifting and inspiring. I can feel your love through your writing and know that is a gift God has given you.

    The road to Christ seems to be a lonely one. It is so tough to know inside that we are trying our best to follow Christ and then we receive rejection, harsh judgements and un-Christ like acts from people we love for it. Has everybody forgotten the good old saying “what would Jesus do?!”

    I often think that it somehow has to be a blessing that we get to catch even the tiniest glimpse of what Christ felt when he received such unjust judgements in His life and the rejection he continues to recieve.

    John 16
    2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
    3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

    How relatable are these scriptures, as the people who claim to follow Christ have so willingly put His servants out of the churches and temples all because we put our trust in God and not men.

    John 16
    33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    There is a reason that each if us here has been given the truths from God that we have. They may not fit the cookie cutter mold of any church on the earth today, but truth is truth and once you recieve knowledge plainly from God there is no denying it.

    May we be forever grateful to God for directing our paths to him.

    How wonderful it is that we can all come together in our journeys to Christ in unity on this blog no matter how different each of our paths may be.

    Tina

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    • MINO or Tina–You Wrote:
      “How relatable are these scriptures, as the people who claim to follow Christ have so willingly put His servants out of the churches and temples all because we put our trust in God and not men.”

      Are you referring to yourself in this comment?

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  7. mc2dd: Your comments over the past few posts intrigue me. I’d like to know more about you. Do you blog somewhere? Do you comment as mc2dd on other blogs? If so, which ones? I’m curious what attracted you to read and comment on my blog lately. I always welcome readers and like to get to know those who share comments on a regular basis. You can shoot me a personal email if you like: tmalonemcse @ gmail.com. Thanks.

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  8. Tim,
    You are a good man. It will be lonely and difficult but you will come out on top. These are my current thoughts and feelings. Maybe others feel the same way. I realize that my perspective is biased as I am writing looking from the inside looking out.

    I believe that Denver has a fresh, timely message. Either way you perceive him, it is a wake-up call. Here’s the problem though – it is three-fold and it all came with his last lecture where he drew the line in the sand.

    #1) Brother Snuffer drew the line in the sand with the whole rebaptism concept. To have asked for such an overwhelming, life-changing sacrifice, then there needed to be a more powerful witness, so to speak. There would have needed to be a Day of Pentecost / Kirtland Temple type experience. The message would need to be accompanied by more… something. Moreover, you would think that more than 1% of the LDS would have had a chance to even hear Denver and his message. As it stands now, few LDS will even give it a second thought. So in my view, it needed to be a more powerful witness and to more people.

    #2) According to Denver, the LDS Church, since April 2014 is wasting its time and resources, as the ordinances she is performing are worthless. The church has no keys, no authority. With this statement, he drew the line in the sand again. Would there not also have been more of a witness to this weighty, significant withdrawal of authority? Does it just slip through our fingers without a trace, without the Holy Ghost at least whispering to those few sensitive, in tune, God-fearing souls? Surely, there are temple sealers who are sensitive enough to the Spirit to know if these sealings and other ordinances are of no effect now. Also, wouldn’t there have been a warning to the church prior to this occurrence?

    It’s not as if Denver claims that the church lost the authority and keys many, many years ago where there would be no reason to differentiate feelings pre April versus post April – according to him the Church still in possession of the keys up until April 2014. Wouldn’t there be a marked difference in the feeling you would have in performing these ordinances?

    Would the Lord had done it this way?

    #3) More of my own rhetorical question – According to Denver, the Lord withdrew the keys after the April General Conference after the membership sustained those who excommunicated Brother Snuffer. Why did the Lord not remove the keys earlier when the church excommunicated, say…Avraham Gileadi?

    In my opinion, if Brother Snuffer had been magnanimous and had told everyone to remain faithful within the church (even though he had been kicked out), to serve where they were planted, and to start working diligently toward Zion within their own wards – giving generous fast offerings and service to the poor and afflicted, etc., etc. the message would have been more powerful. The effect would have been that this man very well could be on the Lord’s errand, has no other agenda, and no bone to pick. It would have stuck in member’s minds that maybe the Lord did send a servant to deliver this message. Members from within, who knew of him and his message, would have started putting it into practice. They would have started talking, persuading, putting pressure on others, including leaders, to start emphasizing following Christ more. There would have been a more natural, healthier split within the church, which would have been positive.

    As it is now, it is divisive without as much potential for change. There are some, like myself, who feel it would be the most destructive decision to ever make – leave the church – with friends, family, and others at a complete loss. I would divorce over it. Would the Lord ask me (and others) to sacrifice this, putting our children’s lives on the altar as well? The Lord would have to directly tell me to do this before I would take such a leap of faith. So I remain within to affect change the best I can.

    Now people who leave are never really taken seriously by the mainstream LDS. Some do, but most do not. To them, you and Denver are simply deceived. If the line in the sand had not been drawn, then there would have been many more working to affect change within.

    It actually makes more sense to focus on non-LDS now. Is this the plan? Was the LDS the targeted audience? I would think so.

    So why was the line drawn in the sand?? What purpose did it serve? Would the Lord have done it this way? These are my questions. Am I missing anything? I know I am and I know that there is a larger plan at work here. It just feels like it has so much less effect upon the membership now. Thoughts?

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    • I don’t know why people ask for thoughts, but since you ask, I will give you a couple.

      #2 is not an accurate summary of what Snuffer said, if the transcript on Scribd is to be believed.

      Inasmuch as #3 follows from #2, it is also inaccurate.

      To understand Snuffer and his claims, you have to read him in the most narrow sense possible. And you have to know what he means when he uses words.

      There are words in play that the definitions of which are being used in a sense that I don’t think is useful.

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      • “At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood.”

        This statement means both more and less than you may suppose, and has no reference to keys.

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        • Let us take this claim seriously and assume it has been reported accurately. The claim is that the Church is no longer led by the priesthood.

          “But wait. The leadership leads the Church.”

          Ah. So it does. I suppose therefore this claim might be equivalent to saying the leadership is not led by the priesthood.

          “But isn’t that to say the leadership doesn’t have the priesthood?”

          Not necessarily.

          “How can this mean anything but that?”

          It depends on what the Lord means when he says “the priesthood.”

          “But priesthood is the authority to act in God’s place, isn’t it?”

          Is it? That might be something to inquire of God about. As I read D&C 107, priesthood is something else entirely.

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        • It is Log, quite a bit more altogether.

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    • These are good questions that I am sure Tim has thought of multiple times.
      I have often pondered on whether the Pharisees felt the spirit from time to time. I really believe they did. I think that we allow the Spirit to testify of things that we open our hearts to and admit are possible.
      Most temple sealers I would imagine feel the spirit during things they do because those things contain a portion of truth that they have received and are very open to. I really believe that miracles will have to occur at an extraordinary degree to get members to turn their heads and even consider the possibility. This is probably what you meant by a stronger witness.
      I know denver is a prophet and will be justified in how God has used Him. I imagine Noah and His family had many incredible spiritual experiences (apart from the animals coming to the ark) that we have no record of and it is interesting to read how no one else would consider it. Same holds true for moroni, ether, and others.
      Tim,

      God bless you and people like you for following the spirit and acting to the best of your ability according to the revelations you have received. Stay strong and be of good cheer. I know you are on Gods side as well as many members of the church who have never heard the name of Denver Snuffer. God will send His angels to gather the sheep. It has already begun and the grain of sand will become a mountain as it rolls onward. You know in whom you have trusted.

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    • Bro. Hiatt,

      #1) Baptism is a token of our belief and commitment to the Savior. They baptized constantly as the Spirit dictated in the Americas and as late as the late 1800’s. There is no line drawn here. It always existed with the Lord’s people.
      #2) The ordinances of the temple never were an end; they were a learning for our journey. When ratifying is involved, then they become more meaningful. That is the way it always has been. The scriptures teach this. Whether or not the ordinances were or were not associated with keys makes no difference. Keys are knowledge, not demonstrable authority only.
      #3) Focusing on keys as confirmation bias to one’s belief system feeds right in to the dilemma you are experiencing. You can cry temple ordinances on and on and will not change anything if ratification from the Father is not had. Your concerns are a red herring.

      I understand you want so badly to believe the Church is sacrosanct and evolved majestically since Joseph, but the Lord has set up his rulers from day one to accomplish His purposes, and nowhere since the beginning of time has man accomplished a transition of spiritual flow befitting the Lord except when Zion was on the earth in several circumstances. When Zion has not existed, history will prove that man and Satan combined to corrupt God’s purposes in the short term. There is no scripture stating that this Church will not suffer the same things as happened to all attempts in the past. Isaiah and Nephi have stated the condition we are all in. I think the seeker has a better chance against the winds of doubt than those “settled” in their belief. The restoration is about to resume and many beautiful things are forthcoming. DS was a catalyst and forerunner as such, but not a man to hang your belief on. Jesus Christ is to be relied on only, and anything distracting from that is a pure waste of time. I am grateful for your thoughts and honor your attempt at their persuasion.

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      • Tim, and community. Particularly Tim–so much of what you write is focused on the correctness of your current path and the wrongness of the path you once walked. I guess I’m wondering if you know what you know—–than— on with it, brother.

        Where is the message of how you all should proceed?

        That old expresion seems to hold true with you Tim, “they will leave the Church but will not leave it alone/behind”….

        Tim, brother, I experiance light and knowledge and edification through the restored gospel. I tell you in humility that I have received the “more sure word of prophecy ” all of these things while in the midst of my activity with the Church you left.

        Tim, if your conflict with what you feel is wrong about the church because you know with certainty the RIGHTNESS of your current path–then why not speak –exclusively–on the enlightenment of that path and where you feel it is leading you?

        You are right — I am suggesting that my OBSERVATION (not judgement) would suggest that your certainty (through your self prescribed message bloging approach) is challenged and more than likely filled with deception.

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        • Jared

          If you truly have received the more sure word of prophecy it will not be long before you are out of the church. I can say with a sure knowledge that despite all of your experiences you have not seen out Savior in the flesh.
          If you would actually have the faith to pray about any number of questions that I could give you then you until you received an answer by pure revelation you would know the church is not anything close to what it claims to be. You probably feel very secure in your position right now because you receive revelation from time to time and you think it means that some credit must be given to an institution you belong to (you said as much in your comment).
          God bless you brother if you truly have received the more sure word of prophecy. Then you are on the same side of things as Tim and we have a great work to do together.

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        • Nate, I value yours and Tim’s goodness. Your message of dissent–the spirit has not helped me to value.

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        • One of the things I learned as a missionary so long ago was the simplicity of the process of declaring the truth. My job was not to prove the truth but simply to declare it. Truth stands on its own. Truth provides evidence that mortal man can only occasionally glimpse and attempt to share. The difficulty is in the sharing. We can only share our own observations and own experiences. Truth must be experienced to be understood. My experience is different from yours.

          I’m not so sure rightness or wrongness is the focus of what is found on my blog, at least under my name. I share observations and perceptions of what I have experienced. You are then free to determine for yourself if what I have shared is interesting, attractive, desirable or worth pursuing in any way. You can accept or reject what I share as being important or irrelevant. My posts are simply one man’s view of things happening in my life, with my own judgment of their relevance.

          What is relevant to me may be totally irrelevant to you. I am the sum of my experiences thus far in my life, and believe I bring with me predispositions to see things a certain way based on what I experienced before this mortal life. I do not feel it is my job to convince you of anything. My job, as I understand it, is to stand as a witness at all times of what I have experienced in my efforts to connect to the powers of heaven, which have been substantial, but not always fruitful.

          It seems to me we have more in common than we have divergent. We both share a love of the Savior. We both know what He has done for us. We both feel His hand in our lives. We both have been richly blessed with the Holy Ghost. We both feel the Lord’s guiding hand upon our lives. We both believe our Heavenly Father loves us and wants us to be happy. We both seek to do that which is pleasing to the Lord. We both anticipate being brought into His presence again.

          Let us not take offense or feel threatened by what we each share on our respective blogs. We are each free to ignore what the other has written. We can each focus on what we feel the Savior would have us do with our blogs – a sort of modern ministry of this information age. Like you, I invite all to come unto Christ and be perfected in Him. I proclaim myself to be nothing. I am a fool, a mere mortal man, subject to all the infirmities and weakness of the flesh, which must die.

          You preach of being alive in Christ. I rejoice with you in your profound declarations of Christ. I am grateful to see your focus on the one individual who will not disappoint us in this life or in eternity. He loves us more than we can comprehend. He knows what we each need. He ministers to us individually, according to our wants and needs. He invites us to rise up and connect with the powers of Heaven that we may inherit all the Father has promised, because of his goodness.

          Jared, I appreciate your challenge to focus exclusively on the path going forward. I’m sure you can also appreciate part of the path of enlightenment is analyzing previously held beliefs and reconciling them with new-found enlightenment. We naturally wonder how we could have once believed something that now seems so clearly obvious to be erroneous. We ask, we receive, we share. Perhaps it is in the sharing you have found offense. I ask no forgiveness for what I share.

          Your challenge is well received and encourages me. I will make greater efforts to focus on the newness of life I feel in what I have received in being baptized anew and receiving the Holy Ghost in greater abundance than ever before in my life. I will do all within my power to show by word and deed the power of the Holy Ghost and in hearing the voice of the Lord in my daily walk through life. Thank you for the challenge. It shows your loving concern for my soul.

          God bless you my friend, especially at this time of year when we remember the birth of the Savior as a helpless babe in this fallen world. He came to redeem it and us from the effects of sin. I rejoice with you in the accomplishment of His great mission and pray with you that we may each accomplish our own mission. I express gratitude for agency to pursue the path the Lord directs and honor your agency to do the same. Peace be unto you and your house, my friend.

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        • Ahh Tim, a brotherly cyber hug for you. I love the Lord– oh how I love the Lord. Thank you for your love for our Master as well. May your Christmas season continue to be bright with his influence. Love for you, JaredB

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        • You’re a good man Tim! Great things are to come in great abundance for you!

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        • Thank you for your witness. I agree with you. God bless.

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      • Yet, if you believe Joseph Smith, baptism, to be valid, must be performed by a legal administrator. This original authority must be delegated by one who obtained it from heaven directly. No delegation, no authority. Whether or not DS is making an overt claim of competition with the Brethren, by encouraging those to start baptizing because they “feel” authorized by heaven to do so, is in fact to make a tacit covert claim to have the authority that the Brethren have “lost.” So there you are. To believe DS is to believe that because he was treated badly and unfairly, God used this one instance to withdraw the legitimate authority and invalidate hundreds of millions of ordinances. Decide for yourself if you think this is a credible claim by DS.

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        • Karl
          You have made some good points.

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    • Good post. Good analysis. Just watch: as time passes, Snuffer will expose the truth about himself.

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  9. My comment is not an attack but rather sincere questions and trying to search the deep things of God.

    Jared, if by receiving “the more sure word of prophecy” you mean you know you are sealed up unto eternal life (D&C 131:5-6), can you share your witness of the means/medium by which you KNOW? How do you know this? What forms or means of revelation?

    Minorityofone, if as you said, addressing Jared it sounded like, you “can say with a sure knowledge that despite all of your [Jared’s] experiences you have not seen our Savior in the flesh” – by what means or how do you KNOW this? What forms or means of revelation?

    I ask these things because we should not be guilty of the same vagaries, ambiguities, and proud (and false, however well-meaning) declarations of sure knowledge (knowing something as surely as you KNOW that you live) that so many from all walks of faith make when what they and we really mean is we think, believe, interpret, etc. Thousands of LDS stand up each fast and testimony meeting each month and declare that they “know the church is true” – do they really KNOW? Log doesn’t like this line of reasoning or questioning because it can be taken to a point of absurdity (how can I know that you really know what you say you know), and that’s not what I’m trying to do – nor is true knowledge transferrable. But a declaration of knowledge is nevertheless testable or subject to evaluation. When you say you KNOW something, or that you have a sure knowledge, you should be able to back it up with HOW you know and then allow others to judge for themselves whether to accept it.

    For example (and this is purely hypothetical), if Denver Snuffer said that he KNEW as surely as he lived that the Savior lived, etc., and related certain things about Him and a message from Him and declared that he knew this by the means of seeing and conversing with the Savior personally, as one man speaks with another, and we, some who heard his declaration/testimony, asked Denver some clarifying questions to understand and validate his testimony. If upon further inquiry we discovered that Denver had received this visitation in a very lucid (realistic) dream, while he was asleep, and had not actually handled the Savior and seen and heard him in waking/physical reality, would that have any bearing on Denver’s claim? Remember, this is purely hypothetical. If such were the case, I think we would have some cause to doubt his declaration. Why? Because a dream, however realistic, is not the same surety as physical reality. It is subject to fewer senses. And we’ve all had the common experience of dreaming things which simply were not so (not true). Truth is real. Truth is things as they really were, are, and will be. It’s not fancies and possibilities and whims. We should be careful what we declare as Truth. If, on the other hand, the Savior had visited Denver in waking physical reality and allowed him to handle Him and see and hear him, as you or I would interact with one another were we to meet in person, then we have what all of us would agree, by common experience, is a sure witness. If I met Tim Malone, in person, and shook his hand and had a conversation with him, and told you all so, that is a solid witness (by the way, that is true, we met at an Oregano’s pizza place in Mesa before Denver’s 10th lecture, with a group that grew to like 40 people; I sat next to Dan Rogers and Will Carter). If other physical witnesses chimed in and corroborated my experience, it becomes even more sure. With Denver’s witness, alone, we might question his sanity or his honesty, even if he claims it was physical and real. Well, what about visions? They are less tangible and in a sense less real. But they can be verified. For example, if you receive a vision by the spirit of revelation, it will come to pass. Only God knows the future to such a degree as to be able to show it and bring it to pass.

    “A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.” (History of the Church, 3:381; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on June 27, 1839, in Commerce, Illinois; reported by Willard Richards.)

    This is already getting too long, and I apologize, so let me wrap it up. How do you KNOW? Did you have a really strong feeling? Was it by the spirit of prophecy or revelation (did it come to pass)? Did you hear a voice (what did it say)? Did you have a dream? Did you have a lucid dream or an out-of-body experience (OBE)? Did you have a near-death experience (NDE)? Did you see an open (while awake) vision (with your actual eyes or just in your mind’s eye)? Did you receive a visitation (was it a spirit or a resurrected/embodied being – D&C 129 – btw, this section mentions “three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God”, i.e. keys of knowledge rather than “authority”)?

    One of the many interesting things that Denver said is that nearly every medium/means of spiritual communication/revelation can be compromised by the Deceiver. So it is an important, delving into the deep things of God, question to ask HOW do you KNOW something and HOW do KNOW it is from God. Is the devil clever enough, and is he capable of, manifesting something powerfully and even with the trappings of light, that is just a few degrees off of true in order to deceive and detour? I think he is, if the scriptures are true.

    Many LDS are deceived. Many DS followers are deceived. Anyone who is acting in their pride and self-righteousness is corrupted. Only the pure in heart shall see God.

    But what do I know?

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    • Disregard the ” dislike” My fat thumb was meaning to push a different button. I can’t take it back for some reason. I tell you in all sincerity –Bravo–my brother– I “love” what you have shared. Sorry about the “vagaries” in the past 6 months I have shared numerous post on Tim’s blog about significant spiritual experiences for me. To this date–Ihave never had a more beautiful spiritual experience then whenI I heard the Lord’s voice declare beautiful blessings upon me. Hearing his voice and being in his unseen presence — The love I felt During and after I will never forget…. I have since witnessed him in a dream and received counsel by him etc..
      . I long to be received by him in the flesh. MAny details left out– but there it is in a nutshell. Got to get back to work… thanks again, JaredB

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      • Jesef,

        Great great questions. I agree that “knowing” is a word tossed around way too often. I can tell you that anything I declare to “know” now has come from at least a clear voice accompanied by the burning of the Holy Ghost.
        I have borne false witness perhaps hundreds of times unknowingly in the past because I did not think I needed a revelation on some subjects. I now have learned we cannot afford to do that.
        From what I have learned Denver Snuffer has seen Jesus in vision alone. I had an experience once where I saw Jesus and I was pretty much positive it was in the flesh. I was awake and He came and I rejoiced. It was not until some time later that the Holy Ghost told me that it was an open vision and not in the flesh.
        The one thing that is comforting to me is that even during visions or lucid dreams (night visions), or anything I have experienced it has always been accompanied by a burning of the Holy Ghost. This is how I would personally know if an angel was even from God. I frankly don’t even trust the handshake method. I think evil spirits are not stupid and they could say “i can’t shake your hand but I have a message” just as well as you or I could. It has been taught to me very clearly that no one has seen Jesus Christ in the flesh for a very long time. I have gone into detail what my beliefs are concerning our bodies and what must occur for that to happen.

        Jared

        I can’t say for sure but you seem to be telling the truth of your experiences. The church can be a wonderful school master (so can many other churches).
        Just consider that what some call dissenting others call assenting to God. What some call descending others call ascending. God bless

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        • I should have said “anything I have experienced FROM GOD”

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        • In a real sense, your belief system or confirmation bias is your whole world. When we all have been drummed in our belief systems the ways and means of the religion or established church, we do not like to empty our heads of unbelief of the institution. This is reality. We go down real hard. We are no different than a Catholic giving up everything to become a member of the Church. But you say,” but this is the one and only true church”, and you easily pass off the shedding of unbelief of the participant for the positive reinforcement of your own belief system. This is the reality.

          There is more to the soul than changing religions, it is changing all aspects of their perspective and though process…what they have known. So who is responsible for ultimate shedding of unbelief and transforming? It surely is not us. It is only the Savior’s reaching out and the Holy Ghost to confirm our change. There is no institutional change, only a Christ centered change and revelation forthcoming through the Holy Ghost. The human soul in all its complexities cannot fathom black and white; they always input shades of gray.

          Therefore, when you leave the institution out and replace it with Christ’s light and love along with the Holy Ghost (not as a label, but as an event), there is no doubt, no frustration and no feeling of coercion so prevalent with institutions. No feeling of “am I doing enough? Am I following every detail so salvation can be accessed by me?” Therefore, what Tim is writing is his freedom to finally have a close relationship without the myriad facets of unbelief wound into the institution where he left. This is reality. God bless everyone seeking for this freedom: the freedom to understand what the Church of God actually is.

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        • Nate,

          I just have to add this because I can’t resist. Ever single vision dream visitation or whatever it is does not matter one bit if it is not accompanied by the Holy Ghost. If you have not been told specifically that you’ve received the more sure word of prophecy then you don’t truly know. We need that confirmation in ALL things.
          I have had to learn the hard way that visions of light are not always good. I had been convinced of my own understanding with a vision I had and it almost destroyed a relationship with someone close to me.
          the one thing I really wanted to say though is I like the nemenhah because it teaches this. There is a part in one of the books where a prophet ( I think Samuel ) basically says, I don’t care if Jesus Christ comes to me unless it is accompanied by the Holy Ghost. He explains that we will never know if its really even Jesus if we don’t feel the power of the Holy Ghost.

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    • Jesef, the seeker. Beautifully put. Things are opening up. You will know soon enough. I just want to be around you when it does!

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  10. Real quick , I’m needing to share this. Jesse, in context,through the Scriptures– the best description I can give you of what it was like for me to hear the Lord’s voice with the previous sacred experience touched upon by be— In my gospel Doctrine class when they discussed Jeremiah’s words of the affect of the lords words on his heart being like a fire shut up un his bones and as I followed the cross refrence to 3nephi 11 and what those choice people felt and the description of how it felt to hear the voice of Deity– these two descriptions were myhumble and joyus experience hearing the Lord’s voice…. I probably can’t explain it better than their portrayal.
    All the best, JaredB ps look those scrips up 🙂

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    • Sfort, There’s not a lack Eloquently expressed thought in The community. However, Eloquence does not always express truth. Some of the grey expressions with in your post towards the church have me scratching my head Saying to myself ” Thats not how theChurchhas worked for me!” So I agree! We gravitate towards and validate emotions we nurture to our souls. The Question is what emotions have we chosen to nurture and give life to? For me–Cloudy aspects of church history have seldom bothered me. If one is spiritually ascending– is there not power and efficacy in the approach. If Christ and his church bear the fruit of the tree of life for you etc–. Where should ones fixation be in that setting? For me the path of Christ and his church has brought me such tree plucking experiances. I know that this type of debate is not the direction Tim wants to go on his blog. Frankly this is not the direction I want to go either. I rejoice in what ee share in common and that is a love and devotion towards Christ. Love for you Sfort. JB

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      • Jared,
        I have to ask you this and it is all out of respect. How do you know that the LDS church is Christs church? And if it is how do you know that Christs “church” isn’t also other churches? God bless

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      • Jared,

        It may be necessary to clarify to you the difference between truth and facts. Eloquence is not my idea of hiding truth. Truth has light. Facts are intellectual. The study of the scriptures never placed a church in the light it exists today. Man has willed the structure, details, correlation, worthiness, a gluttony of building, investments, etc. Thus sayeth the Lord does not lighten this scenario at all…these are facts. I don’t seek to condemn a church or people; this would be against the word of God. But When the Lord said that the church was under condemnation, it was a fact. There is much light lacking because of the busyness.

        It seems the church begins in primary to follow the prophet, then into mutual and seminary with a structure of must know material, then to Institute that cements the structure in place all prepared by people in committees who prepare the manuals. Now there are many good things associated there, but it misses the mark. Once you start your life and family, the church keeps you so busy in callings, you don’t have time to find God. The works overshadow the merits of the Only Begotten.

        If you are elated with the structure, God bless you. Enjoy your journey. But in these times of restitution of all things, there are many looking for their Master without impedance., including what you shall eat or drink to keep you from the face of God according to men; or to pay the Church whose assets are the sole property of the President, before you csn see the face of God, or to proscribe your devotion to men before you can see the face of God. A long sentence, yes. Bless you in your journey. I prefer to read new things coming forth that bring me closer to my God and enhance my love of the Book of Mormon. They are and will come forth and then, the Church of God, whom we are, will choose to live the Law of Consecration which must be lived to arrive at the fullness of the gospel.

        I am giving you my thoughts, and my thoughts only. They are mine. If you share some of them, then we intersect on those things. The Holy Ghost speaks to me and moves me toward the journey I am on. Can you say this is wrong? I say unto you, nay…not for me. You cannot know.

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        • Sfort, I do not begrudge you your convictions. If Christ is manifesting himself to you through Your approach, wonderful. For me –that–message is compelling, the other stuff not so much. Brother, if you think that the Saints within the church are not having significant experiences drawing nearer untounto Christ– I respectfully disagree with you. Where will the cleansing first start– it will start in his house. We live in an era where the height of Babylon has never been so treacherous. I don’t care to point fingers, but I do desire to lift up the hands and heads that hang heavy. And exemplifie Jesus through word and deed. The scaffolding known as church will not be neededin Zion–For his law will be written on our hearts and our minds and hearts will be perfectly single to his glory. Church programs no-mas. Can we advance this direction in the interim. It is my witness that yes! gloriously we can.. Sfort,it is true that we are not totally aligned with what we feel the solutions and the problems are– However, I do know that I love you And that my bed is calling me–good night brother, JB

          Ps Revenger, So much wonderful truth is out there in Christendom. I acknowledge this. I have some 30 odd post on ldsff You can get a clearer idea of how I feel there, and also–if you do your homework I share my feelings pretty extensively on Tim’s blog. Maybe there’s a way to look at my posts?? If That doesn’t work– reach out to me again and I will share. Love for you. JB

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  11. JB,

    Then we agree on many points. Old men dreaming dreams and young men seeing visions is happening all over the world. Many in and out of the church are participants of God’s grace and benevolence. There are many happy Catholics that serve graciously and many other protestants that do the same and are very happy with their world they have created for themselves. We all create our own worlds.

    But…when an institution starts to be the driver and seeks to be the originator of everyone’s salvation, Houston, we have a problem. God moves all of his children up the ladder based on their willingness to climb. Perhaps this earth was meant for someone just to have experiences that show them pain, or anger eradication, or seeing the other side of delivering sorrow to others. We all need experiences. When we travel up the ladder, our perspective changes. That does not mean that pride is part of this, because as soon as it rears its ugly head, down the rung you go.

    Life is a combination of experiences and God, who is in the details, will grant unto you those experiences necessary for your ascent to Him. Whether a person believes as a member of the Church “should” makes no difference. It is all about the experiences that we embrace.

    That is why institutions of religion darken the way and muddle the path. When we find ourself tied to them, we “may” have lost the intent of our life’s journey. I love the people of this church. I have served with beautiful beings and have seen much beauty in families I have visited, even my own kids are amazing brought up in this church that I was so devoted to. This is not the point. When the tail starts wagging the dog, we are delayed in moving ahead. Joseph uttered pretty much the same thing relying on him too much. I prayed extensively to know more truth. It seemed my eyes became aware of things I took for granted as coming from the Lord. I didn’t want the negative, only more truth.

    Alas, my mind had to shed unbelief to allow room for more truth. I have not discarded a single thing I embraced that has uplifted me; I have just shed a little flotsam and jetsam. Ah, thus my journey, ever reaching to new heights, and for me it is a different path. Thank you for your sincerity. You are in the place you need to be. Enjoy the journey…you seem to be already!

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  12. Thanks to those who responded to my inquiry.

    I need to re-ask my real question and clarify my thoughts. The question is based on two premises.

    1) Denver is on the Lord’s errand
    2) The target audience is LDS (I realize it’s for everyone, but I think it safe to assume that it was mainly for the LDS.)

    If these premises are true, then WHY WAS THE LAST LECTURE’S CALL TO ACTIONS SO IMPRACTICAL? If the message is such an important warning for the LDS community to heed, then why is it so utterly impractical to the point that the overwhelming vast majority will now never even hear the warning?

    I realize that this is rhetorical question because no one will have an answer, but I desire to post the question.

    I see amazing brothers and sisters daily serving faithfully and diligently. They are generous and kind and loving. You who have been in your local wards and branches know who I am referring to. They don’t venture out on these blogs and don’t delve into the intellectual exercise that we do. They don’t debate every nuance of wording, meaning, and intention, like we do. They have simple faith and they want to serve and come close to Christ. I want to establish Zion with these people. (I don’t even know who else I could establish Zion with.) We bash the LDS Church, the Corporate Church on these blogs. I realize that we loathe these evil, pharisaical men behind the curtain pulling the strings whose only purpose is to build shopping malls, blah, blah, blah. I get that. All I know is that I see wonderful, faithful brothers and sisters who will not even as much as hear this God-sent, dire-warning, important message. Why?

    (I am not asking for philosophical reasons as to why, citing all sorts of scriptural examples; why I can’t do it myself, why I can’t tell others to read it, etc. I am merely asking a rhetorical question about the overall practicality of the message and its call to action.)

    In honor of Log, no need to respond here.

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    • #2 is not accurate.

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    • Snuffer’s message, according to him, to the best of my recollection, is intended for those who are not satisfied with the Church, and those who have left or have been cast out.

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  13. Log,
    If I remember correctly, you are right.
    So, if it’s not for the LDS, then my question is answered. The LDS would not be under condemnation for not heeding this message. It was only intended for them, if they were unsatisfied – a much smaller group. It’s not an impractical message then.
    Thanks for reminding me of this.

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  14. Log, I have followed off and on your interchange with RinoOone and the points he makes are very similar with some on another blog he has written on where he seems to categorically lump and over generalize and does not bother to answer repeated questions posed to him. He claims divine constant revelation on any number of subjects all the while having a contentious condescending tone and not just letting his testimony stand on it own merits. Doesn’t truth stand on it’s own? I wouldn’t write about this, but the Rhino keeps interjecting his disruptive comments between any dialogue no matter which site it is. Why cant someone just post what they feel or think without some one coming in and personally challenging them on every point? I stand with you Log on your witness and testimony about what you have written and posted. Rhino obviously is using this blog of Tim’s to feed his ego and not God’s sheep.

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