Who is Our Real Mother?


I’ve come to the personal conclusion that Satan is actually a woman and Lucifer is a man for this reason: a man who held priesthood authority in the actual presence of God (D&C 76:25-27) could not have been operating as a solo unit at that level.

He would have to have been sealed to an eternal companion and co-equal with her in intelligence and authority in order to stand in the presence of God. They would have to have been parents of their own posterity at that point, and unified in all things. Thus, to my way of thinking, there are two of them. They were both cast out for rebellion. They are together damned – stopped. Cut off both root and branch. They are without possibility of resurrection, posterity, increase, or eternal lives. They are desperate, and becoming even more so as we near the wrap up scene in this particular eternal round.

“The Great Whore” is not a man’s title, and never has been.

Bad-AppleSatan, the original female half of that sterile partnership is unable ever again to bear children. She cannot be a real mother on earth, in heaven, or even in hell.

Having no creative capacity, Satan is scripturally referred to as “he,” having forfeited by open rebellion any portion of the honor of female gender designation, and Team Lucifer/Satan therefore defaults in reference usage to the generic neuter gender term “he.”

Because Satan can never again be a mother she is totally focused on destroying the posterity of our Real Heavenly Mother, who sustained the decision to cast down. The mindset of Satan is most clearly illustrated in the 1 Kings chapter 3 incident of two women both claiming to be the mother of the same infant: if one woman couldn’t have the baby then she wanted the king to cut it in half with a sword, kill the child and divide it equally between them rather than let the other woman have the child. King Solomon wisely judged that a real mother will sacrifice anything to save the life of her child.

Satan has manifested throughout all ages and cultures in various disguises trying to get people to worship her as their great mother/goddess. She’s desperate for any down line.

Of course, Satan doesn’t reveal her true identity here, or nobody would be drawn to her.

Some of Satan’s pagan personas have been Ishtar to the Babylonians, Isis to the Egyptians, Asherah, Astarte and Ashtoreth to the Canaanites, Hebrew idolaters and Phoenicians; Kwan-in to Buddhists, Diana to the Greeks in Paul’s day, Kali, Sophia, Virtus, Cybele, Rhea, Lillith, Enna, Anahita, Gaia, Mother Earth, Our Lady of this and that to the Catholics, and so forth.

I think we can expect even more assumed identities as Satan continues to adapt and morph into whatever works best in her unfolding Anti-Christ agenda. In Satan’s upcoming new world order you can bet it’s the women who are going to be in charge. And Satan is planning to be more in charge than anybody else.

Dirty-waterSatan’s “messages” are always adapted to the level of tolerance for, and willingness to accept any portion of spiritual error in the target audience. If a people is willing to accept 95% error and is culturally comfortable with only 5% truth, Satan is more than happy to oblige. We may hear it said that all religions are good, and equal, but this is a lie, because each of man’s religions are contaminated with varying percentages of deadly spiritual error, and an amalgamation of them all only increases the amount of error in the batch. This is what’s behind the big endgame push for a combined world religion.  Any part error / contamination will be burned in the fire to come: Zion is 100% Truth.

The LDS church is full of people who have become very comfortable over the last 165 years with a high percentage of correlated and corrupted gospel content. But if it were possible, Satan would deceive even the very elect by dishing up 99.99% truth in order to spike it with .01% error, still a profitable margin for her purposes.

To Catholics, Satan manifests in multiple versions of the Virgin Mary, worshipped as the merciful intercessor for her angry son, Jesus. As focus on the virgin increases in any people, Christ and His imperative gospel message are marginalized, becoming irrelevant, and eventually adversarial: “If God is angry with a sinner, Mother Mary takes him into her protection, she withholds the avenging arm of her son, and saves him. She is the sure refuge of sinners and criminals from the rigor of wrath and the vengeance of Jesus Christ.” It’s the good cop/bad cop, game, and in that scenario Satan’s “motherly” message wins every time.

Among Mormons:  the Book of Mormon prophet writers, Joseph Smith, and now Denver Snuffer have intentionally avoided talk of a female deity because the same thing happens to any people who focus attention on a mother image – Christ’s imperative message becomes diluted, then irrelevant, and then the people completely turn away from Him and worship a woman, to their ultimate destruction.

It’s just human nature: we all want our mommy, so Satan steps in as the cunning counterfeit and it all goes to hell. It happens every time.

A good catholic who sincerely wants to communicate with God may think he has to pray to a merciful intercessor, The Virgin Mary, who is actually Satan posing as Christ’s mother.

But most Mormons aren’t quite that gullible and certainly aren’t going to knowingly worship, pray to, or insert Satan dressed up as the Virgin Mary between themselves and their Heavenly Father. So especially for Mormons, Satan adapts, morphs and shape shifts into something sweeter, more forgiving, more nurturing and doctrinally acceptable to those who have been serially abused by unrighteous dominion. Satan now comes softly to us as our “Heavenly Mother.”

Whenever someone focuses on or prays to “Heavenly Mother” it’s Satan who picks up the phone and answers that call. Our Real Heavenly Mother will not. Not now.

Apple-tree-good-fruitChrist himself showed us the only secure transmission for personal prayer: “Our Father who art in heaven” (Dear Heavenly Father). That direct line can’t be hacked by the adversary. We all knew that before we got here, but some of us have forgotten the key to safe communication with God.

Of course, this is all just my own personal opinion, and you’re certainly entitled to your own.

You can tell your kids whatever you want. I’m a mother and a grandmother – here’s what I tell my children, and theirs;

“At this point in the last days timeline you can be certain that anyone who identifies as a disciple of, claims to speak with and receive personal revelation from, or promotes any kind of direct communication with an entity claiming to be “Heavenly Mother” is being deceived by Satan.

Satan will say anything, do anything, appear as anything in order to distract us, divert us, and shake our focus off Christ at this most critical junction in human history.

Our Real Heavenly Mother will not distract attention in any way whatsoever from Jesus Christ and his message or she’ll lose her children. It’s that simple. She just plain won’t risk it.

Pure-waterWe are her heart, her life, her reason for existing – she loves us beyond all human capacity of comprehension. She knows that the only way we are safely hers is for us to repent, individually accept and apply The Atonement of Jesus Christ to our lives, and carefully follow Him through the coming storm.

Our Real Heavenly Mother does NOT want our prayers, our focus, our adoration or our worship. It’s fake mother Satan who wants our prayers, our focus, our adoration and our worship.

Our Real Heavenly Mother wants us to focus on Christ and do all that He has said. It’s fake mother Satan who will do anything to take our focus off of Christ at this critical time on earth.

No matter how much we may miss our Real Mother, we can’t be with her in the next life if we get it wrong in this life and focus on the warm, fuzzy feel-good counterfeit. That’s how this works, and we have work to do. The war in heaven continues on earth today and we have a choice to make.

I tell my own children with all energy of this mortal mother’s heart and soul that any individual or any group focusing upon or encouraging communication with any entity identifying as “Heavenly Mother” is perpetuating Satan’s deadly distraction, which will surely have an eternal cost in the end. From such, turn away.

Now is the time for each of us to repent humbly and turn our hearts to Jesus Christ: the Way, the Truth, and the Life. There are two churches only, and two choices only: Jesus Christ, or anything else out there. I plead with you to choose as if your entire eternal life depends on it, because it does.” That’s the message I give to my own children.

As King Solomon knew, a real earthly mother will sacrifice anything to protect the life of her child. Our Real Heavenly Mother will continue to sacrifice her identity and visibility in order to protect the eternal lives of her posterity against anything which keeps us from crying out and coming directly to Christ: recognizing in Him the Prototype of a Saved Being, and following in His footsteps.

The last scripturally recorded message of the earthly mother of Jesus Christ remains stunningly relevant to us all: “whatsoever he saith unto you, see that ye do it”.


Here are the links embedded in the post in a separate list:

Women – Wimmin, Wiccans and Goddess Worship by Alan Turner

Virgin – The Marian Apparitions: Divine Intervention or Delusion? By Miriam Lambouras

World Religion – Global Alliance

Crying – Denver Snuffer Las Vegas Transcript

Prototype – Denver Snuffer Ephraim Transcript

Worship a woman – Goddess Worship

93 Responses

  1. I guess I’ll be the first to post it:

    Satan is abroad in the land (D&C 52:14)

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  2. Lynne,

    I’m intrigued by your suggestion that Satan is a woman and Lucifer is a man. Interesting! Please forgive me if I offer criticism. It’s to understand the idea better. If you can graciously offer advice I would really appreciate it.

    Sorry if my words seem a little embellished at times. It’s hard to make your emotions understood along with your words using typed text.

    One problem I see is that there was no premortal marriage requirement to attain high priesthood before entering Earth life. Otherwise your position would make sense. I know by positive pure knowledge in personal experience that some people have made promises to one another before coming to mortality. However, I know of nothing more. If you or anyone else does, enlighten me please. I ask honestly.

    I do not agree with your position on those who have experiences with Heavenly Mother. Let me give you what is in my heart, and that is love and care for the woman behind the keyboard; it is also hate for evil. And that’s the truth. It’s what I feel. I believe this is called “righteous indignation”.

    I have had one experience with the being my soul recognized as Heavenly Mother. One. She did not distract from Jesus Christ. She’s his mother! How could the Father distract us from his son! I felt that great sacredness the LDS speak of. She was Light.

    I would like to say I think I know what I’m talking about. I now deal with dark spirits on a daily basis, because of the great work myself and my close associates are about to begin. In the past I have addressed he who is called the prince of the devils–no name, which is why I am curious about your idea. Yet I do know the difference between dark and light. It has come at an awful price–time, and time again. I even twice experienced exactly what another person was feeling in entirety.

    Therefore, for now, I reject the idea that Heavenly Mother separates herself from her children as you claim. Give me something more than “It’s that simple.” Cite scripture. Cite revelation. Cite personal experience. But do not cite circular reasoning.

    This is the same problem, lack of personal research, that landed you in hot water by passively calling certain blog members cowards for not having “skin in the game”. In the end it’s you who got burned. You don’t know them well enough to have portrayed them as you did, not to my knowledge.

    I say this to help you. You have my freely given forgiveness–and warnings. Help yourself and us. Repent where needed. God be with you.

    victor

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  3. I feel like you are into something in the beginning of your post about the male/female of Satan and Lucifer, but I have to kindly, with all due respect strongly disagree to much of the latter end of this post. I do appreciate the fact that you made it completely clear that this is your own opinion. Think about what The Savior’s number one message is…LOVE, unconditional LOVE!! That is a female attribute. (No disrespect to you men, but naturally wouldn’t you agree?) I agree with you when you get to a certain level of ascension, you become a part of a female/male bond…total equals…yin and yang, however you describe it. However, it is through the Savior we come unto Father AND Mother…the UNIT. You say Mother wants all our time and attention on worshiping The Lord, but it was the Lord that said that the glory is not to him but to The Father (the unit!). Also, Jesus teaches that he and the Father are ONE. He is in the Father as we are in him. When one gives glory to God, you are giving glory to ALL of them as they are ONE!! Our Lord and Savior’s mission saved us ALL, however all he did mirrored what Father did. Do a scripture search with Father and see all the Lord says about Father, but also keep in mind, like was mentioned in the beginning of the original post that Father is a unit. Mother and Father. I have no doubt that our beautiful and wonderful Brother would be all but honored and be joyful if he saw his brothers and sisters give glory and worship to Mother. He never wanted the Glory, it wasn’t about that for him. He fulfilled his mission so that through him we can get to Father AND Mother. Just my personal opinion though and I’m just a nobody who loves her God, all three of them.

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    • Imatharris! God bless you! I had the Holy ghost bare witness of truth through your words of Love!! Thank you!

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    • Thank you!

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  4. “At this point in the last days timeline you can be certain that anyone who identifies as a disciple of, claims to speak with and receive personal revelation from, or promotes any kind of direct communication with an entity claiming to be “Heavenly Mother” is being deceived by Satan.”

    I respectfully disagree.

    I’ll refrain from expounding why, since you have clearly already labeled me a Satan worshiper.

    However, I will suggest that our Mother does not operate in fear on any level. She doesn’t fear risk. She doesn’t fear negative eternal consequences. And she certainly doesn’t fear communicating with her children.

    Your portrayal of her wringing her hands in desperation to contact her children but deferring to the masculine diety to conduct and preside over salvation because she would mess things up if she got involved –is distasteful to me.

    I am certainly curious to know what you view as the role of female diety if not to be equally involved with male diety in the salvation of their children? How do female gods spend their day, pray tell?

    I’m personally not interested in a godhood where I defer to my husband in all things for fear of risking my children’s damnation if I speak with them.

    I’m sorry that’s the kind of godhood you expect to have, sister.

    Further, labeling communication from Mother as Satanic couldn’t possibly be more insulting to her. I’ve seen a lot of stuff but that claim takes the cake.

    No wonder she never speaks to you.

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    • I’m sorry for that last personal insult. That was not disagreeing respectfully and I apologize.

      And I change my last thought– Mother and Father and all diety will never cease trying to connect with us, no matter how we label their efforts or reject them. Denver taught that God is always talking to us, if even the angels withdraw from us.

      So, I was wrong.

      I guess I was referring in that parting shot, which I again apologize for its needless snarkiness, to the possibility that since you have predisposed yourself to NEVER receiving any communication from Mother, in all likelihood your self-imposed banishishment wish will come true. But as your choice, not hers.

      I think that is so very, very tragic.

      With all the hell we have to deal with here, why would you purposely self-impose a “no fly zone” around yourself, banning half of all heaven from coming to your aid and succor? Ain’t they the most hot-dawg freeking-awesome Relief Society in the Universe and you’re posting a “No Trespassing” sign on your door which means “I want no more casseroles, babysitting, toilet cleaning, hugs, or sob sessions– I can do this on my own”.

      Wow. Just WOW.

      I don’t know any woman who would willingly post that kind of message on barbed-wire around her house, complete with dogs, mines and snipers, as you have.

      Therefore, Lynne, I believe you are writing out of fear.

      Fear of being deceived.

      I likewise have a fear of being deceived. It’s important and healthy– if we allow it to be a stepping stone, not a stumbling block. I preach to myself here, as well.

      I believe you, as we all do, know someone who actually IS being deceived by a female entity, who may even be calling herself our Mother, and your concern is through the roof. Understandably. I know there are entire groups of people who are led, as you expertly outlined, by female dieties of deception, who do gently and delicately distract from Christ. There are also groups who “bypass” our Heavenly Father entirely and pray to His father, in an attempt to access even more colossal universal power, which, admittedly, sounds fantabulous on paper. But that’s not the plan and they are deceived.

      So I’m certain your post was born of intensely deep concern for those around you who are being deceived. I do appreciate your warning and your teaching about false female dieties.

      However, to blanket label every communication from a female diety as false is just a bit over the top for me, as I expressed. It’s carpet-bombing the spirit world as a defense against any deception. A “kill them all– let God sort them all out” kind of mentality as used in warfare so that, although you’re killing any communication from good diety, that’s a price you’re willing to pay to eliminate all communication from bad diety.

      And you are a warrior, I am certain of that. No one but the fiercest warrior would go public with your carpet-bombing assessment and warning. I truly admire you for putting yourself out there as a target for stinging rebukes from dolts like me who don’t know how to disagree respectfully. I’m learning, and I appreciate you allowing me to learn on your time.

      But I sincerely object to your carpet-bombing efforts and feel that you are proceeding in fear, not faith. That faith which is required to allow yourself to stop this– not only defense against, but your blanket assaults against all female entities– and allow yourself to be guided by the Spirit on a case-by-case basis. That does open yourself up to deception, yes. But it absolutely opens yourself up to half the Universe that you’ve been rejecting.

      I pray that your fear of yourself and others being deceived will evolve into more confidence in your ability to discern, and the Holy Ghost’s ability to help you in that crucial effort. I am working on that as well.

      I pray that you will realize your infinite worth. I am working on that as well.

      Know that should you never change your mind, Heavenly Mother will still be there talking to you, no matter what. She was not offended by your comment like I was. She has no pride like I do. She only has love like I don’t.

      She IS love. And she loves all of us. She loves you, Lynne, and will envelop you with it as the other commentors have shared, if you will let her. Please allow and welcome her in to your life. Let Elohim– who is male AND female– into your life.

      Said with the intent of gentleness, meekness, love unfeigned and pure knowledge. I pray I have done better at that on this reply.

      May you allow Elohim to bless you, Lynne, is my prayer.

      Angelina 🙂

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      • Angelina,

        I would like to ask you something out of all respect… how do you KNOW some one on here is being deceived?

        I would agree with you that we can not let fear guide us and I agree that the Holy Ghost will guide us in all things. I actually agree with everything you said accept the statement where you said, I believe you, as we all do know someone who actually IS being deceived by a female entity, who may even be calling herself our mother, and your concern is through the roof, understandablly.

        Now, I don’t know who you are referring to but I don’t know that that this person has been deceived. In fact if i think it is the person you are referring to then I know you are being quick to judgememt and do not understand. I have learned by the Holy Ghost that she is speaking truth. Can you say you know bu the Holy Ghost that you know she is being deceived? I want to ask you, HOW you know this person you are speaking of has been deceived? Are you going against your owns words above where you speak of letting the Holy Ghost guide you or are you saying she has been deceived because you fear what you may not understand?

        Many times we fall into judging people or situations because we don’t understand. When we follow our own instincts rather than trusting the Holy Ghost we can deceive ourselves. I have been humbled many times and made look like a fool because I thought certain people were crazy and were being deceived but the bottom line is we don’t know anything until the Holy Ghost confirms it to us

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        • Hi Revenger,

          Thank you for your reply!

          I have no idea who you’re talking about.

          There must be someone online who fits my description perfectly.

          Interesting.

          Would you please direct me to their writings? Sounds lIke they seem crazy but you’ve had a witness that they’re true?

          A name or online handle would be helpful so we can communicate clearly here.

          I completely agree that it’s VERY thin ice when a person accuses another of being deceived. I think Lynne is on thin ice with her accusations, and your chastisement, Revenger, has given me pause to review my own accusations again.

          But no, I had no specific person in mind in my post. Thank you taking the time to ask for clarification and bring some truths to my attention.

          Your reminder is true: I am under the condemnation of God until I refuse to condemn others.

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  5. An interesting article. A very unique position. Some of the things discussed make sense others do not. I have read other opinions that state Satan is related to Lucifer but that Satan is male and definitely not married to Lucifer. I have not received any personal revelation on this subject. When I think of God I think of them together, both Father and Mother. I believe they are both very involved in our lives. I have personally had experiences which I believe were with our Mother in heaven. The wonderful feelings of light and peace which I experienced are hard to put into words. Our language is insufficient to describe what I experienced. I cannot believe what I felt was from Satan. It is hard for me to imagine that Satan has the ability to cause what I felt. So much light. So much peace. So much joy! … Your position is certainly unique. If for whatever reason this is your path that you must follow I wish you the best! God bless!

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    • StillStruggling, Lynne,

      I am with still struggling. I know that what stillstruggling had experienced was from God. I have had many great and amazing spiritual experiences that have forever changed me! I do not write this to be boastful. I know of my own nothingness. I have not deserved a thing from God, Heavenly Mother or Heavenly Father.
      This being said I am not ashamed to say that my most powerful experience has come from a vision of my Heavenly Mother! I knew and felt the perfect love that she has always had for me. I wept like a baby when her love went sweeping through my entire body, hitting every particle of my being! like stillstruggling says there are no words or language to describe that unconditional love that I knew she had for me.

      Lynne,

      IF THIS EXPERIENCE THAT I CLAIM TO HAVE HAD IS FROM SATAN THEN I WILL FOLLOW SATAN FOR ETERNITY IF THAT LOVE IS THE END RESULT!

      The one thing that I know is that Heavenly Mother loves all of her children unconditionally! I know that she loves you Lynne and you will experience her love at some point regardless of what you have written or have done. you will feel and experience this love at some point, not because of what you do but because of the Mother herself.

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  6. I read your conclusions without judgement. I am intrigued by your outcome of who Satan is.

    I must disagree with you that our Heavenly Mother does not communicate with us. She is our cheerleader, seriously! She cheers us on and sends much love to us. My relationship with Her does not distract me one iota from Christ.

    Ill make my view simple. Opposition in ALL things. GODHEAD- Father, Christ, Holy Ghost (your higher self) DEVILHEAD- Satan, Lucifer, Being of Darkness on this Earth. Satan fights against God, Lucifer against the Son, (D&C 76) We are to become translated beings and fight against the Being of Darkness on this Earth.

    There are a few without veils who have been taken into the throne room of Satan. And have said it is a male.

    Yes. He is impotent. That power was taken from Him when He fell from Godhood. But He sure as hell can create. As can Lucifer.

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  7. I had the idea that God is a woman and a man. For some reason I hadn’t made the mental leap to apply that to satan. It makes sense.

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  8. Lynne,

    Within the last 48 hours the Holy Ghost told me clearly, “it’s time to write about Mary Magdalene”. I sent Tim what I wrote earlier today and mentioned this in what I wrote. It is now clear why God wanted me to write about her after what I have just read.
    I understand your position and that is why I persuade pekoe to ask the Father if they can communicate with the Mother. Many people are comfortable speaking to the Father so ask Him. If you are uncomfortable with the idea then ask our Father and He will give you permission to speak with the Mother.
    I agree there are evil female spirits. I have encountered them. The head of these evil female spirits is not named satan but I agree with the line of thought. They do not have a type of marriage relationship. Too much hatred exists for them ever to enjoy the company of others if they cannot use them in some way.

    “Of course, this is all just my own personal opinion, and you’re certainly entitled to your own.”

    I am happy to see you admitted this. That one statement is an important one and therefore I respect what you had to say. I would ask you if you think an “opinion” is something you think is worth condemning so many people over? I am wondering why someone would make such declarations and accusations against people who claim experiences with their Heavenly Mother when they admittedly do not know one way or the other…
    I offer another reason why many people refrain from talking about our Heavenly Mother, it is highly probable that they simply do not know Her. It was not so long ago that I thought a fulness of everything is found exclusively through Jesus and the Father.
    Stay tuned for what I wrote. It is certainly interesting after this post. Thanks for your thoughts.

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    • This ought to be interesting
      minnow wrote;

      ””'”I agree there are evil female spirits. “I HAVE ENCOUNTERED THEM” The head of these evil female spirits is not named satan but I agree with the line of thought. They do not have a type of marriage relationship. Too much hatred exists for them ever to enjoy the company of others if they cannot use them in some way.

      “Of course, this is all just my own personal opinion, and you’re certainly entitled to your own.”

      It was not so long ago that I thought a fulness of everything is found exclusively through Jesus and the Father

      Stay tuned for what I wrote. It is certainly interesting after this post””’

      Stay tuned because an authority on these above matters will teach us how we can not receive a fulness in Christ or The Father.

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    • I am interested in your article on Mary. Having lived in southern France and learning the actual HISTORY of the church that MARY brought to that region I myself am a scholar of sorts on the matter. I spent some time in the grove of Mary and it is such a peaceful and sacred place.

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  9. First of all, I appreciate your boldness, Lynne. I’m pretty sure you knew that there would be a lot of people here who would strongly disagree with what you have to say here (myself being one of them). I love that this forum offers room for civil disagreement and that people feel free to offer differing viewpoints. We’re all mature enough that we don’t need someone behind the scenes filtering out “false doctrine.” I feel that a central message of this blog is that we really ought to individually rely on the Spirit to teach us and help us to sort out truth from untruth, WITHOUT relying on a “flawless” man-made source or strongman.
    Anyway, I don’t feel the need to fully explain my thoughts and feelings about this article, as much of it would simply be less eloquent repetitions of points already made clear by other commenters.
    There was one thing I felt would be worth adding, though.
    3 Nephi 11:36
    “And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.”
    Though the Godhead consists of separate Beings, they are one in mind and purpose. They each bear record of each other. Jesus Christ as our Mediator brings us to the Father. The Father says, “This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” The Holy Ghost testifies of the Father and the Son as they, in turn, command us to hearken unto the voice of the Spirit.
    Such is the case concerning our Heavenly Mother, the other half of Elohim. In my interactions with Her, She does not “distract” from the Savior any more than the Father would “distract” us from His Beloved Son. She points to Them, and following Them is the same thing as following Her. They are one God, completely unified.
    My efforts to worship the Father and the Savior have only intensified as I’ve come to know my Mother.

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  10. Just no.

    Pray to Heavenly Father that your heart will be opened to our Heavenly Mother’s presence and power. If you look to be deceived you might be, but you have essentially cut the child in half with your post. If you have experienced love from our Father, you have experienced love from our Mother. Ask for discernment. If you deny Mother, you deny Elohim.

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    • Lynne,
      I apologize. We are all on this difficult journey, but I was wrong to imply that my understanding of our Heavenly Mother should supersede your own or that you haven’t prayed appropriately to understand. In my experience, I have not specifically sought Heavenly Mother’s presence; I did not pray to her. Our Heavenly Father brought me to her (in prayer), and she came to me in spirit. Though I know the adversary can mimic many things, I do not believe the adversary can mimic the overwhelming love I experienced. Thus, my response. But Log is right. Neither Father nor Mother has asked us to avenge them; they do not need us to do so. I pray the Lord be with you on your journey and hope you’ll do the same for me. God knows I need greater knowledge and understanding.

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  11. Please be wise. You stated, “Christ himself showed us the only secure transmission for personal prayer: “Our Father who art in heaven” (Dear Heavenly Father). That direct line can’t be hacked by the adversary. ” Remember when our first parents prayed after being expelled from the garden of Eden the first being who was willing to answer their prayer was Lucifer. We must all be vigilant as to the source of what we think is inspiration. I believe Satan will try to deceive us in every way and in every thing he can. To quote a prophet… “Be wise, what more can I say?”

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    • To correct my self and accurately quote the prophet Jacob, the words in English are “Oh be wise; what can I say more?”

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  12. Because you have the courage to express your beliefs based on study and observations I will take courage to express mine which is believe is related to yours. I believe we or most of us are those cast down with Lucifer and Jesus has agreed to come and redeem us. We are that group that was fooled by Lucifer and he has said he will take the bodies created by Adam and Eve and those spirits that followed him will posses them. We are Gods children, but we are the rebellious ones and we are here to turn our hearts to God and Jesus agreed to come give us a way home.

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    • Also remember that after that statement by Lucifer, God said he would place emnity between Lucifer and the seed of the woman. That Lucifer would have power to bruise man’s heel but man would power to crush his (Lucifer’s) head. Does this mean we are different from Lucifer our cast down with him? You decide.

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      • Is it possible that the fall provided a way to redeem those who were cast out by them “possessing the bodies” through birth and being given an opportunity to accept Christ? There would also be “noble and great ones” who did not have rebellious spirits who could connect with heaven through priesthood and provide the light necessary to gather as many as would believe on their words.

        Satan would have power to bruise those valiant spirits, but he could also be crushed as the atonement unlocked the door to free all those who trust in Christ (regardless of their prior rebellion in heaven).

        This might help explain why only two of Adam’s sons (Abel and Seth) believed on his testimony. I’m just speculating here. This is something that has been rolling around in my head without really checking all the scriptures to see if it is possible or not.

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      • Enmity is hatred for or against. A kind of natural divisiveness. God wants us to hate darkness and eschew evil. It is interesting that we have a natural fear of snakes especially when happening upon one unexpectedly during a hike.
        President Benson’s great talk on Pride discusses enmity and said that the heart of pride is enmity. (paraphrasing)

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  13. I’ll come back and finish reading this article. I don’t have time now. I just wanted to present my beliefs.

    Satan and Lucifer are both men, two of three men who make up the “dark side” godhead, parallel to Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. There is a female side to each godhead, each person has a female partner.

    I believe that Satan and Lucifer’s female partners are divorced from them. I believe the “whore of all the earth” is Satan’s wife.

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    • Meilitark,

      I like where you are going with this. I have learned there is the other good half to the Father, Son Jesus, Holy Ghost. The other side being the Mother, daughter Mary and Holy Spirit so why wouldn’t there be their opposition?

      I have wondered though about Lucifer. I mean his name is used 1 time is all and its written in Isiah. It is not used in the new testsament or in the Book of Mormon. It might be in the book of Mormon only if they are quoting Isiah. This being said, what do we really know about Lucifer other than the “teachings of the LDS church” that I don’t know if it is true.

      Does anyone on here have any sort of a testimony about Lucifer? If you do then Iwould like to hear about it because it has been something that I have wondered about for awhile.

      Thanks

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      • I have never noticed that before. Lucifer was always a household name growing up and I never doubted his existence although I did think it was simply another name for Satan.

        I appreciate the beginning of this post in opening up questions about who Satan and Lucifer really are. It is logical to ask questions about their marital status once you start really looking into the mysteries of God.

        It occurred to me perhaps a year ago that the whore of all the earth was more than just a symbol. As soon as I considered the possibility of her being an actual person, it was logical to attach her Satan.

        You have to ask why she is a whore. Whores generally aren’t married. However, it is very possible that she is divorced:

        Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.

        What might cause a “star of the morning” to fall more than losing the love of his precious wife? Is it possible that this “whore” is a broken-hearted wife who has been rejected by her husband? Something to think about.

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  14. Elohim Heavenly Father is the creator and master organizer. Elohim Heavenly Mother gives life to ponderable matter. Now having said that, You can be a God without being exalted. Once exaltation is achieved, You cannot appear to telestial sphere without utterly burning it up, one being in the Spirit or not. Satan was not married to Lucifer because he was not exalted. He was a great being of light, but nevertheless not married and one with a mate to create what Heavenly Father and Mother could create…with the ability to create AND give life; and Heavenly Mother is the the mother of all living. The symbolism of Adam and Eve represents what transpires in the Heavens. That is what the Endowment of Power is; borrowing the power of the changing of universal matter as the Father does. That is Why Nephi, Jared, Enoch, and several others in the scriptures had this borrowed power.

    Now the distracting of praying to our Heavenly Mother is not something that interests me in what my tasks are at hand. I just give her reverence by treating the earth as Her’s and Elohim Heavenly Father’s, and seek to renew it when I can. There is probably good reason this detail is not represented plainly in the scriptures and part of the initial learning stages of our progress here. Once we understand what is entailed in exaltation and the oneness between man and woman, both needed to create, we then can venture into the realm of the inexplicable. We have to put off the natural man, live the law of consecration and become one with our spouses, and one with God. Intellectual ascribed beliefs are superfluous, IMHO.

    What a great generator of comments!

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  15. Until you experience Mother, I would be very careful in discrediting her. In the temple of Solomon three gods were worshipped. Father, Mother and Son. King Josish being very young listened to the evil priests and abolished the worship of Son and Mother. Read margaret barkers book entitled the mothers lord. Josephus writes about the terrible trouble Israel had because of this change. The tree of life described in Nephi happens to be Fathers wife, the Love of God, which means his beloved. Jesus is. the fruit and seed of the tree of life. You can go to maxwell institute and read Dan petersons aricle entitled nephi’s asherah. Every important detail of Jesus had women involved. The adversary takes everything, and twists it. I would be extremely careful in denigrating God the fathers wife. The Holy Spirit is Mother. She is part of the Godhead. Everyone gets the Holy Ghost confused. Mother Father and Son are working together to return us to them. Unless you study hebrew, which is the sacred language of Gid, you will not ever understand the feminine nature of the Godhead. Mother works with Jesus and Father on all things. When you invite her into your life the immensity of love towards Her Son snd Our Father is magnified to such a degree that it is almost incomprehensible to bear. You are crushed with so much love and honor for them and in awe of all creation. But if one does not want to experience this, they w I’ll not force. But I assure you, you are the one missing out.

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  16. I wonder if this principle is sound – “If ye receive not the Spirit ye shall not comment”? Does it never occur to peeps that the devil sends his voice through many channels and emissaries to provoke others into responding amiss – in conformity with his will – and “I feel sorry for you because of the dumb stuff you believe, you poor deluded fool,” howsoever nicely expressed, is a tool of manipulation? Success, you see, he got what he wanted.

    If the Gods do not avenge slights to themselves, and have not asked us to avenge them, then why do we waste our time trying to avenge them? Why not scream “Allahu Akbar!” and fly some planes into towers?

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  17. I believe Log, this is a forum. I can’t say I know of anyone changing their entire belief system, paradigm, manner of worship over what is said here. You need to give people some credit. People are entitled to their own unique journey. ..and everyone’s is different. Let them worship how where and what they may. Our growth cannot be quantified by men. God is in the details and will steer as we let him. In mortality, there will be different understanding of God by everyone. Though perhaps you may feel the scriptures might prevent clones of thought, the Lord gives room in the atonement if we seek Him and have eyes upward, keeping His commandments, repenting and choosing His ordinances.

    Now we know what life eternal means as spoken by the Savior, to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. Joseph said we needed to know the attributes and perfections. Since the gifts of the Spirit have been muted because of lack of faith these last 100+ years, it seems only appropriate for seekers to miss a few things along the way. Have patience. It will all be for our good as we strive and endure.

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  18. Tim, all I can write at this time is thank you! Thank you Lynne for sharing your experience and what you have received as a result of your searching, seeking and reaching into what you see as truth as you have received it.

    Tim, your allowing of others to post has been such a benefit, and allowing me to stretch, seek and receive. I have been working on such a contribution that would be worthwhile to your readers, as the spirit has been directing me. Truly, I have been stretched of recent.

    Thanks again, Tim and all others who have honored the words that have come to your hearts! You do not, as of yet, understand the far reaching effects of a pebble dropped in the pond 🙂

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  19. Well, it’s an entertaining fantasy. It always amazes me the teachings that can be woven without an iota of revelation to support it. The whole topic of teaching about Heavenly Mother is one that doesn’t have a shred of revelation in the Standard Works to support it. This means that the best suggestion is that if anyone is really receiving any revelation in this area, you are best to keep it to yourself, as Lorenzo Snow did about the “as God once was,” couplet, until that teaching was established by Joseph Smith years later. But it does keep this blog entertaining.

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    • Karl

      There is not a shred of evidence in the standard works that supports the idea that we are not supposed to preach about Heavenly Mother. If lorenzo snows couplet was true and God gave it to him who was joseph smith to say it should not have been taught?
      I am pretty sure that if it was taught to lorenzo snow then joseph smith didn’t “establish” it. It was a truth before joseph smith was even around to tell it.

      “Without an iota of revelation to support it”.

      Karl, I think if you read the comments in this thread you will see that many people are trying to say very clearly they have received revelation on the matter. Or do you think revelation actually consists of what you read in books that can only be interpreted the way certain men tell you it can be interpreted?

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      • Minno Wrote:

        “There is not a shred of evidence in the standard works that supports the idea that we are not supposed to preach about Heavenly Mother. ”

        Well Mino —How About the following?

        Mosiah 18:20

        20 Yea, even he commanded them that they should apreach nothing save it were repentance and faith on the Lord, who had redeemed his people.

        D&C 6:9

        9 Say nothing but repentance unto this generation; keep my commandments, and assist to bring forth my work, according to my commandments, and you shall be blessed.

        Jacob 4:14
        14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

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  20. Karl was pretty specific on what he meant – “revelation in the standard works.”

    I think charitability entails that if there exists a relevant context in which a speaker / writer can be completely correct, then we ought to interpret him in that context.

    I know it’s not as satisfying as saying “gotcha.”

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    • However, it was Brigham Young who told Lorenzo Snow to shut up about his revelation, if I recall correctly, and Nate does have a good point about “who is [Brigham Young] to say it should not have been taught?”

      It is, after all, God who counsels us on what we should do with the mysteries of the kingdom, right?

      9 Go ye into the world, saying unto all, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come nigh unto you.

      10 And the mysteries of the kingdom ye shall keep within yourselves; for it is not meet to give that which is holy unto the dogs; neither cast ye your pearls unto swine, lest they trample them under their feet.

      11 For the world cannot receive that which ye yourselves, are not able to bear; wherefore ye shall not give your pearls unto them, lest they turn again and rend you.

      12 Say unto them, Ask of God; ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

      13 For every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and unto him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

      And if God says to preach Heavenly Mother, or to preach against her, well, who is any man to judge otherwise?

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      • Dang, I wuz rite.

        apt to judge others leniently or favorably.
        “those who were less charitable called for his resignation”
        synonyms: magnanimous, generous, liberal, tolerant, easygoing, broad-minded, considerate, sympathetic, lenient, indulgent, forgiving, kind
        “he was charitable in his judgments”

        Alma 34:29
        29 Therefore, if ye do not remember to be charitable, ye are as dross, which the refiners do cast out, (it being of no worth) and is trodden under foot of men.

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        • Log

          Please read the statement Karl made below. Notice the period at the end of the sentence.

          “It always amazes me the teachings that can be woven without an iota of revelation to support it.”

          That statement ended with a period and then a new sentence began.

          To state what you are saying he stated clearly would suggest he said something to this effect-

          “It always amazes me the teachings that can be woven without an iota of support from the standard works.”

          His next sentence was false as well by a long shot but the question I asked still is very pertinent.

          “Or do you think revelation actually consists of what you read in books that can only be interpreted the way certain men tell you it can be interpreted?”

          Because many people see the teachings of Heavenly Mother all over the standard works. So the question is very important to understand what he is trying to suggest. Was he trying to suggest that if anyone interprets passages of the standard works to be in support of a Heavenly Mother they are wrong?
          Please tell me what his very clear statements suggested. Also please tell me who God was talking to when He supposedly spoke the words you quoted from a passage of the “standard works”. Also to accept that passage of scripture as pertinent, you would have to clearly know who God was speaking to, and you would also have to know which “mysteries” He was talking about.
          Is it mysterious that we might have a Father in Heaven? Can it be any more or less mysterious an idea to think of a Mother? Is it mysterious to talk to a Father? Is it any more or less mysterious to talk to a Mother?, and on and on and on…
          People at times think simple truths are mysteries because of the uncomfortable truth that they have never considered such simple ideas. To accept such ideas would cause them to have to consider the errors of their previous paradigm and behavior. It really isn’t mysterious at all. We have Heavenly Parents, we can converse with them both independently as often as we seek Them. They love us and want to help. Pretty simple and straightforward. It is easily understandable and quite logical in fact. The real mystery is why evil men have sought to cover up our Mother? YES that is a judgment. It is a truth.

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        • Nate,

          As I said, being charitable is less satisfying than saying “Gotcha!”, but hey, it is a choice we make.

          “[W]ith the same measure that ye mete withal, it shall be measured to you again.”

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  21. Log

    Who wasn’t being charitable?

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    • Both of you.

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      • “[W]ith the same measure that ye mete withal, it shall be measured to you again.”

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        • Indeed. I have no worries on that end.

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        • Nor do I 🙂

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  22. I suppose you don’t have anything to worry about, Nate, if you like being interpreted uncharitably and presented with “Gotchas!”.

    And let me speak more plainly.

    The pet “doctrines” of what might be termed the “Mormon fringe” are teachings which cannot be established from the scriptures.

    Heavenly Mother is one such. Multiple mortal probations is another.

    I’m going to go farther – those who respond with offense when their pet doctrines are slighted are themselves offenders and are not founded upon the rock of Christ.

    The Savior told those whom he tasked with teaching to teach repentance and leave the rest alone, instructing others to ask of God so they could receive the mysteries for themselves. Repentance and faith in God was the defining teaching of the church of God among the Nephites; more or less was not the church of God. The Lord even in this dispensation has counseled and asked those tasked with teaching his gospel to stick to repentance and faith. He has said that to add to or detract from his well-defined doctrine indicates one is not founded upon his rock.

    His counsel is wise and is calculated for the benefit of all. I wish, oh how I wish, people paid more attention to the Lord’s words on these subjects. But, if not, they learn by their own experience why the Lord has asked what he asks.

    I just hope they don’t cause too much damage to others in the meantime.

    Like

    • I intentionally left a couple holes in that. Will I be read charitably, or will there be an attempt at a “Gotcha!”?

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      • Thank you for stating your opinion that you must believe is well established according to the scriptures and which I will have to assume somehow fits into your own reality of what it means to teach faith and repentance.
        Everything I teach obviously from my own paradigm is well established in the scriptures. My conviction is that nothing can be established as truth unless the Holy Ghost tells it to us as jndividuals. That is the iron rod. The Holy Ghost is the only “interpreter of the law” that we ought to trust.

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        • I will assume you are describing your opinion of what I wrote when you label what I wrote as my “opinion.”

          Labelling someone’s words as “opinion” is a tried-and-true way to rhetorically minimize and disqualify someone else’s words without addressing the substance thereof. I appreciate it for what it is.

          But you haven’t addressed the substance of what I said. This is of course another common pattern with you that I, and others, have noticed.

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        • You didn’t answer the questions I asked in my comment above at 712 pm.

          I disagree with your opinion that Heavenly Mother is not well established in the scriptures. I only think of myself as a Christian. I do not care what God may or may not have tasked others with in the past. I only care what the Lord’s word is to me. I would think it immoral to allow your wishes to detract from what God has told me.

          That is my response to the substance of your comment.

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        • You know what, Nate, you needn’t respond. Like I said – if you like being interpreted uncharitably, and facing “Gotcha!”s, then you have nothing to worry about.

          What should our teaching be?

          17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

          18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

          19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

          20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

          21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

          “Huh. What do we do after that? Do we need to believe this or that preacher?”

          1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?

          2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

          3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

          4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.

          5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

          6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

          “But… but… don’t I have to believe what other people tell me is true, just so long as they say either ‘Thus Saith the Lord’ or ‘I’m speaking what I was told by the Spirit’?”

          1 John 2:27
          27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

          "What does this mean? Does this mean if I repent and am baptized by fire, I can ignore everyone in favor of the words of Christ, revealed to me by the Spirit?"

          Yes, actually, it seems to mean just that.

          "Does this mean people who try to get me to listen to them about anything beyond faith and repentance are doing me a disservice?"

          Why, yes, I think one might reasonably reach that conclusion. After all, if you repent and exercise faith unto mighty prayer, you will receive the Holy Ghost – which teaches you all things.

          58 Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:

          59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

          60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

          61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

          So, if a person is past faith and repentance, they need no mortal teacher, since the Comforter dwells in them, and if the Comforter doesn’t dwell in them, there is no other message they need than faith and repentance.

          Incidentally, imaginary interlocutor, do you like being told you have to believe or obey people based on their claims to inspiration? Do you like it when people imply if you don’t agree with them you lack inspiration? Do you think arguments from authority are valid? Do you respect people’s arguments when they apparently feel a need to cite their authority?

          “No to all.”

          I’m with you there.

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        • Nate, you say: “You didn’t answer the questions I asked in my comment above at 712 pm.”

          Ok, fair’s fair.

          I say “I decline to read Karl’s mind for you.” Your question is inappropriate.

          And you have Google and the scriptures. If you were really interested in the answer to your question about who Jesus was talking to, you would have looked it up. Did you?

          And if you persist in misunderstanding what “the mysteries of the kingdom” are, then are you asking me to be your teacher? Or are you asking what are to you rhetorical questions intended to set up gotchas? What is your intent on asking me about teachings which are not to be found clearly stated in the scriptures?

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        • Again.

          “For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do. Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ.”

          I wonder how it can be anything other than impertinent to task oneself with teaching doctrines other than that of Christ.

          After all, if one has not received the Holy Ghost, one needs the message of repentance, and if one has received the Holy Ghost, one needs no mortal teacher.

          That point is what needs to be addressed.

          Teaching the commandments is what God ordains priests after the order of the Son for.

          1 And again, my brethren, I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.

          But what of those juicy mysteries?

          9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

          What portion of his word is that? Whose heed and diligence? And to whom do they give this heed and diligence?

          So if one isn’t teaching the commandments, neither repentance NOR FAITH, but rather what one terms the “mysteries,” then who is benefitting? *Shrug*.

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    • Yes the damage in the mean time is troubling indeed. I agree that preaching the principles and virtues and the fruits of repentance is the essence of His doctrine. And of course pressing forward keeping ourselves fastened to the Iron Rod and feasting on his words. Going beyond the mark is the source of much confusion and contention. Setting ourselves up as false teachers and prophets will bring much sorrow to many.

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  23. I do not have as much respect for people’s opinions when they continually feel the need to cite OTHER PEOPLE’S authority and what they believe God spoke to OTHER PEOPLE.
    All of your statements you have made to me about what you believe people ought to teach from your own framework of belief can be just as easily applied to you and Lynne and anyone else who comments. I think it has been inconsiderate to fill up the comment sections talking about logs interpretations of the standard works. Lynne and everyone I apologize it is probably a downer to read comments and see a long discussion like this and I’m sorry for the annoyance. Log that’s it from me to you on Lynne’s post. May Heavenly Mother bless you.

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    • Well, Nate, I’m sure we’ll have a rocking good time on the next post or comment.

      After all, we’re roomies now. 😉

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      • I am, however, just so very interested in finally getting a response to this one point.

        “So, if a person is past faith and repentance, they need no mortal teacher, since the Comforter dwells in them, and if the Comforter doesn’t dwell in them, there is no other message they need than faith and repentance.”

        If you disagree with this statement, could you please explain precisely why you disagree? Would you please you explain your reasoning for us?

        If you agree with it, then why should anyone listen to you? What have you got to add to the Comforter? Why do you open your mouth?

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  24. Minority thank you for being brave …. Joseph Smith taught that we only receive that which we are willing to receive. Those who do not want a relationship with Mother Father and Son do not understand the blessings that are withheld. We are all at different levels of progression and understanding. Joseph lamented in his day that the saints would not receive more. Nothing has changed. Sad as it is, most of us are condemned for our unbelief.

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    • Mr. Tomb Giver
      Nate believes Joseph Smith is a Fallen Prophet who taught personal doctrine for his own selfish benefit because he claims Joseph Smith was caught in the act of adultery. Therefore we were taught about the doctrine of Plural Marriage.There is quite a difference between the virtue of bravery and the attribute of pride. We condemn OURSELVES for our beliefs if they are not in harmony with the teachings of The Savior. We are taught to believe and have faith in Jesus Christ because He is the ONLY Way unto The Father..Nate claims that Joseph Smith is “fallen” and yet still cites many of his “false teachings” to support his positions. One teaches quite the opposite of repentance when teaching and preaching things that are beyond the mark, thus leading not only themselves astray and into the ditch but pulling many along with them.

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  25. Nate, M of One –
    Log was citing Scripture which you said in previous spots you believe in…

    You too have cited numerous people and yet you wrote the following to Log:

    “I do not have as much respect for people’s opinions when they continually feel the need to cite OTHER PEOPLE’S authority and what they believe God spoke to OTHER PEOPLE.”

    Why do you go beyond the mark? Why do you teach more than what the Savior commanded? Is repentance getting old or boring for you?

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    • If I may venture a projected answer on Nate’s behalf, he might say that the scriptures were spoken to other people, not him, therefore he may not consider himself bound to observe commandments nor precepts neither abide counsel that was given to others unless the Spirit tells him it is binding. The effect of this kind of position is that there may be no predictable external check on what Nate might teach or do – if he might be inconsistent with scriptures, well, the scriptures are outdated, uninspired, or otherwise invalid and not binding. If the Lord hasn’t specifically told him not to sleep with his neighbor’s wife, then the possibility of sleeping with his neighbor’s wife is open. Etc.

      He also might say he does not agree all of what the LDS call scripture is in fact from God, possibly citing D&C 132 and the JST as examples of uninspired or erroneous writings.

      However, Nate certainly can answer for himself. This was just an attempt to make explicit one possible position he can take.

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  26. In my view, Lucifer is only used to name that spirit who opposed the Father’s plan in the pre-mortal life and who was present in the Garden of Eden. After the fall, when he is in his role as haSatan (Hebrew: literally “the Adversary”), he is no longer Lucifer. He is no longer the “light-bearer”, one of many who showed such promise in pre-mortality, so his old name doesn’t really apply to him. In fact, I think Satan is really a collective name, as there are many adversaries — 1/3 of the host of heaven. And certainly many of those were female spirits in some sense. Is it possible that gender is something that is lost to those who lost the opportunity of mortal life? Gender-related temptations and attacks on our souls seem particularly vicious.

    Forgive me if this seems elementary. It’s just the way I have it sorted out in my mind.

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    • Wow there are a lot of words put into my mouth that I have never said in the comments since I read last night. I believe all of us are “fallen” creatures. Joseph smith was no better than King Benjamin who considered himself less than the dust of the earth. Whatever mistakes joseph smith made I forgive him and I happen to know that he felt remorse for polygamy. The spirit has confirmed to me what William marks tried to tell everyone. Joseph smith was going to try to put an end to polygamy before his death but did not have time.
      I do not cite any teachings from joseph smith that I don’t think are true. Yes like log said I have a testimony that section 132 is not true. A lot of the additions to the book of commandments were uninspired. I love the prophet joseph smith. I love the prophet brigham young. Wherein they erred I forgive them.
      Log I have said this before that men and women first need to follow the light of Christ. We are born with the inherent ability to discern between good and evil. Adultery is something that everyone would feel guilty about if they did not have a seared conscience. That being said I do not believe anyone knows anything with a pure knowledge one way or the other without revelation. How could they?
      Right in a scripture that everyone loves to quote “by the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of ALL things”. This is very plain. We should not put our trust in doctrine that is not confirmed to us by the Holy Ghost. Is that not logical? Hearken not unto the precepts of men save they are taught by the Holy Ghost… Why do I get so much flack for something so simple? Yes so to me that means we need to prove ALL things before we can declare it to be a truth or falsehood. That includes any teaching from any man, including joseph smith.
      Mc2dd
      It seems whenever you write a comment it is almost always to try and put me in a bad light. What’s the deal my friend?

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      • Mc2dd,

        Btw i do not go beyond what The Lord has commanded me to teach. I might go beyond what you want me to teach or what others may have taught but one thing I attempt to always do is to share what The Lord tells me to share. And though log has mentioned the possibility that I try to suggest people have to believe me that isn’t true. People can believe whatever they want. I will not stop saying I have received things by revelation just because people don’t like it. It’s the truth. If the Holy Ghost does not bear witness it is true to individuals then I definitely suggest that they not put their trust in it. Certainly no one should put their trust in precepts I teach unless it is confirmed by the Holy Ghost. Everyone needs to work out their own salvation with them and God and allow others to do the same. It is a sin if I allow others acceptance of my beliefs to add to or diminish my love for them. I would hope that all of us could love others based on the fact that they are family and need nothing more than that fact to be filled with love for all men and women.

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        • Mi nos words:

          “Btw i do not go beyond what The Lord has commanded me to teach. I might go beyond what you want me to teach or what others may have taught but one thing I attempt to always do is to share what The Lord tells me to share.”

          Are you claiming then that everything you have written on this blog was a commandment from God to teach?

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        • Do not take honors unto yourself or say that The Lord has commanded you to teach the Doctrines of Darkness. You are following the voice of the father of lies.The Father’s House is a house of order and not confusion. The house of the evil one is a house of confusion and disorder ever stealing away light from those who listen to him replacing it with the light of darkness.

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      • Minnow said:

        “Wow there are a lot of words put into my mouth that I have never said in the comments …….

        So you are saying that you have never blogged or written or said any of these things ?

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      • Mino Nate- To answer the last line to your question…”What’s the deal my friend”?

        Just look chronologically at the series of comments starting from previous messages and you (Well an unbiased reader) would see where you have incited responses to personal attacks and innuendos. I was ignoring your responses even while you were challenging my peaceful comments to others. How ever no more ….You have disturbed a hive of African bees that will pursue you relentlessly until you find the only safe cover for all mankind.

        I will put it plainly and without guile.

        The false deluded doctrines you spew are worthy of severe correction.
        In your need to fill your narcissistic ego and pride to show your great amount of false information given to you by one or several of Legion’s minions.

        You need to repent and change the desires of your mind and heart and take your family out of harms way.
        Your life is wasting away on this blog serving no purpose but to fill some fantasy. You have turned from what you were ordained to do and are testing the endless mercy of God in a finite probationary time. You are called NOW by the power of God to repentance and a mighty turning away from the wicked self serving path you are on. From your pride, selfishness, disobedience an hard hardheartedness.

        The false principles and doctrines freely spit out on this refuge for rebels is toxic and self serving. Other than those few who are truly obedient to the light and knowledge of our Savior Jesus Christ, the Moral Majority is Neither as pertaining to this cyber space of weeping and wailing.

        Nate, yes, I am warning you and calling you out–Calling for you turn from your wicked perverse ways of going beyond the mark and teaching crap to your family friends, and even strangers happening upon this LDS commentary site or anywhere else for that matter. I can tell you that you have not received witness from the Holy Ghost about so many of the things you have taught and YOU KNOW it. I have a PURE knowledge of this. You Know I am telling the truth. Figure it out now and humble yourself and get back and serve faithfully in the Kingdom of God which you have forsaken and taken your family from. Do not waste your prime family years in this way. You can not focus on this blog site and do the right things for your family, children and friends. Man can not serve two masters. Your priorities are jacked up and need severely adjusted. Look down the road 15 years, where do you see your life going? I can tell you that it will not end well. I have seen it over and over again. Your family will be shredded in time due to your disobedience and prideful pursuits. Wake up now. If you respond how I think you will, then I fear for the future of your children and your children’s children. Enough of the cosmic, cellular matter and preaching others to pray to Mother when they haven’t even been born again and pressed forward in the path through the strait gate. Enough bashing others and prophets and leaders and those not worshiping or following you. Enough of the petty arguing and wasting your precious probationary time. Wake up and do what is right. I don’t care what the other minions on this site might say about my comments and don’t even think of running into their sympathetic arms of ego consoling shelter because of my pointed rebuking of your ways. It is up to you plain and simple. Turn from the darkness and become a true disciple of Christ. ….Don’t even think I am wrong, you don’t have that luxury.

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        • Very interesting.

          If you sincerely feel that way and wrote out of love thank you. I am on the path wants me to be on and surely have received a witness from the Holy Ghost of the things I have shared.
          I love a scripture quoted by someone else when Jesus said to “come, follow me”. That entails that we know His voice and will follow HIM, not other people who claim to know what is better. I encourage all to do that by receiving grace and crying mightily to God daily for more grace and mercy.
          God bless you and may He turn your stingers into pogo sticks.

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        • So I can respond –Will you please proof read your last posting and re -write it so it is understandable with Urim and the Thummim.

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        • As you stated:
          The Power and Revelation of the Holy Ghost is not some tingly hyper emotional experience or feeling. It is pure knowledge.

          Do not even think you can refute what I have told you in my straight forward correction and rebuking. If you are wise you will listen to the real Power of The Words of God The Father through the Holy Ghost. The time for your games is up Nate and by the Power of God I sincerely am rebuking you to turn from this non sense and dark path and do what YOU KNOW is right. Repent and turn with full purpose of your heart to The Father , Even your Heavenly Father and ask for strength and forgiveness. You know what you have done and you know whose voice and counsel you have been listening to and obeying and it is NOT God The Father and or His Son Jesus The Christ and or The Holy Ghost. Do not go there and call evil good or call good evil. I am here expressly to call YOU to be honest Now with your self before it is too late. You do not know the appointed hour of your leaving this probationary time. Do not test God. Admit your lies here on this site and never return to it and turn back to God with sincerity. DO not put your family in harms way. You are the father and protector of your family. You are allowing Satan to gain access to your home and family through your arrogant and prideful view of your self. STOP IT NOW NATE. Look at the message and not the messenger. You know it is from The Father and you must realize the perilous position you are placing yourself in.

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        • Nate Krivanec— DO NOT MOCK GOD – DO NOT CALL GOOD EVIL OR LIGHT DARKNESS – YOU ARE ON THE PATH TO DESTRUCTION WITH FAMILY IN TOW. TURN AROUND NOW…

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        • Ha HA

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        • Mc2dd,

          I was born again by the Mother! Don’t you ever speak evil of her and tell some one to not speak to their mother!! this is what will condem the world!! A loving father on earth would never ever say don’t go to your mother cause you need to know me!! Damn this idea of thinking straight to hell! We are all born of Mothers!, they give the gift of life! Women are the ones that hold their child in the womb and we are no different with Heavenly Mother! Whoever tells people not to go to the Mother needs to change their minds now and sincerely pray about the matter! What do you have to say against this?

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  27. Mc2dd, I agree with Minority on Joseph … I don’t believe he was fallen, but I believe there were many things that he did as a mortal and people claimed it was because he was a prophet … we mortals tend to make tons of errors … Why do you think so many church historians have left the church? It’s because when they delve into the diaries and records, they don’t add up to the version we have been given. Our history, like any religion, has problems. The concern is that we tend to put people on pedestals and worship them instead of our God. Too many people worship Joseph, too many worship Denver. All prophets are mere mortals who were called to be servants but it doesn’t mean that every aspect of their life is godly. Isaiah spoke of our time … that we are idol worshippers (worshipping anyone but God), we break the covenants, change the ordinances, etc etc. The Jews had the same challenge we have at our time … they worshipped Abraham and Moses .. and the Law … and therefore didn’t recognize Jesus when he appeared. The LDS worship Joseph Smith. It is evident in the study of Hebrew, Greek and Egyptian, that many titles for God are feminine. Why do so many feel threatened when Mother in Heaven is mentioned? Goodness sakes do you think our Father and Savior are jealous and do not want to share the honor and glory? Do you not honor your mother and wife and wouldn’t it be rather selfish if you took all the glory? To not give gratitude to one that is loved so much is a sin … Brigham taught that one of the biggest sins we commit is ingratitude. If you are unwilling to read deeper history of the church, if you are unwilling to accept truth from other sources, even if it is outside the church curriculum, then as Joseph said, we are condemned. The most important law that we can obey is the law of love … that is the highest law in heaven. As I have stated, once you have had an experience with Mother, you cannot ever deny the glory and love and beauty that she is and you can never deny the honor Father and Son give to her. Maybe if you prayed and pondered, fasted and sought this truth, you would come to also experience it. As a side note, did you know that in the diaries of Heber C. Kimball, and others, that shortly before Joseph died, that there was such a thing as the Anointed Quorum? This Anointed Quorum consisted of males and female and the women were anointed as queens and priestesses unto God, not to their husbands. There was no subjection … the change in the endowment happened with Brigham. I doubt you will read the following link, but if you are truly interested in truth, then it may serve you. In fact Brigham was so threatened by the women he had the Relief Society banned for 23 years … Hmmmmmm……

    http://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=1171

    You have to keep in mind that at Jesus’ time it was the religious zealous leaders that had him crucified … If you pay attention to patterns that your eyes will be enlightened as to what is happening today. As I stated, Jesus surrounded himself with women … he honored them. It was the women who witnessed the most crucial parts of his ministry before the men … When there is a balance of male and female energy, or I should rather say honor, respect and love, our world would be a different place. You just have to look at the countries (especially the countries where muslims dominate)that subject the women to realize it is they who have the spirit of Satan …

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    • Thank you that was beautiful. I just hope others feel the Spirit of truth as I did reading that. Amen

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  28. I would hope that all of us could love others based on the fact that they are family and need nothing more than that fact to be filled with love for all men and women.

    If they could, we’d have had no need of the atonement, neither the teaching of repentance and faith. But, since they can’t, they have need of the teaching of repentance and faith, and the atonement of Christ.

    You’re certainly, and demonstrably, able to refuse to accept or apply constructive criticism as you do here, but, Nate, the questions I’ve asked on Dec. 21, 9:22p, are worthy of answers. I know I want to hear your strong reasoning.

    Whether a man says “thus saith the Lord,” or “I’m teaching what the Spirit told me,” he is declaring authority and palming his words off on the Lord. He is not discussing, he is not reasoning, and, indeed, to disagree with him is, perforce, to disagree with the Lord if he’s telling the truth, thus discussion or reasoning with such an one is pointless. He is either a prophet or a deceiver and there is no middle ground; if he is a deceiver, there is again no real point to discussion or reasoning. Thus we either take down his words like a pill, or refuse the medication.

    I despise arguments from authority, myself; because of this, I do not deploy them. It has been my experience that arguments from authority are nearly universally attempts to recast opinions as knowledge, which deception rankles. The golden rule therefore forbids me form pushing opinions disguised as knowledge on people as well.

    So when you label my citation of the scriptures above “interpretation” you do me a disservice for I have cited them without interpretation. What’s even more interesting to me is that to my knowledge you hold the position I demonstrated from the scriptures yourself. And you appear to act inconsistently with that position, which is why my questions of December 21, 9:22p, are appropriate and really do warrant addressing.

    A thing I like to do is look at what a person is teaching and ask “so what?” Even if the teaching is true, does it imply I should change the way I do business, and if it does, does it give me the tools to make the change? If it doesn’t, then it might be interesting, telling me something about the preacher, but, in the end, such pointless teachings are vanity in my view. If it implies a change is needed, and gives me the tools to make the change, that is something worthy of inquiring of God about. Otherwise, well, I just don’t care, myself. That is my take on Visions of Glory, for example – it gets a big “so what?” from me. Pointless spiritual voyeurism if true, and worthless if false. No need to even inquire – literally. I have no need of such stuff. Others may rejoice in it. To each their own.

    So the bare teaching of faith, without teaching how to obtain or exercise it, does the hearers a disservice. No need to inquire. It’s vanity. The pharisees, after all, according to Jesus, laid burdens on the people greivous to be borne, but would not help move them with their little fingers, if I recall correctly. Telling someone they need faith is just like telling a cook to stop cooking crappy food – it is unactionable even if true. And to someone who has never had good food – or tasted of faith – they don’t know what you are talking about in the first place.

    So tell the cook – your meat is underseasoned and overcooked. That’s actionable! Tell the person who lacks faith to pray mightily, confessing all their sins to God, forgiving all men of all offenses, restoring and reparing where applicable, pleading for the Spirit and pursuing this prayer until God answers from heaven. Tell them in the meantime to not be weary of well-doing. That’s actionable!

    “Good Master, what may I do to inherit eternal life?”

    “You know the law and the commandments.”

    “Yes, and I have kept them from my youth up; what do I lack yet?”

    “Oh, you just need faith!” Jesus did not say.

    He rather said: “If you would be perfect, sell your possessions and distribute the proceeds to the poor and come, follow me.”

    That is actionable.

    There is a point to all this.

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  29. Mc2dd

    If you believe I am insincere and lying and intentionally deceiving anyone you have misjudged me. I have dealt with many people’s words of condemnation and “warnings” and rebukes and each time I turn to God and ask if there is any truth to such things I get the same answer. The God I continually pray to is the God of Jesus Christ. The Spirit I follow continually testifies of Him and has witnessed to me that the Book of Mormon is true. Should I not follow that Spirit even if all men in the world tell me it is a false one?
    I have noted your prophecies of condemnation and warning. Thanks for the caring message. My family and I are happy and better than ever before by God’s grace and love. My wife and kids would be happy to attest to it if they ever asked. My wife and I receive revelation together consistently and rejoice in Gods blessings together. It is beautiful and I long for the day I can depart from mortality and dwell the Beings I worship. God bless.

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    • Mino
      It is not what I believe that matters to you, it is what I know and You know is true, I am not the judge but am truly the messenger and you know it. You are trembling due to the truth and gravity of this direct rebuking and Clarion Call. You must now decide what the natural consequences will be in your life. If you continue to lie, then you know what results will be for you and the family.

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      • Mc2dd – if the words you have aimed at Nate were aimed at you, how would you respond?

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      • Mc2dd

        Your comments have not made me angry. There has been zero trembling. This last comment almost got a chuckle out of me but that was the closest it got. Yes what I know does matter. What I do with what I know matters.
        Now I know why others have said this is all entertaining. It is almost goofy to see all of these personalities and beliefs. Haven’t lied anywhere on this, or any other website. I can’t imagine what has made you say these strange things but I truly hope you are happy and do not feel to condemn you. I don’t recall a time that God has ever told me to throw out words of condemnation at others. This is an odd time of apostasy on this earth. God bless you and merry Christmas.

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        • Mino – As I said – I don’t even care what others think about what I have to say to you. You are the one specifically that they are directed at. I don’t care if it makes you angry or any one else. You are masking your reaction to my admonition with nervous sarcasm and insincerity. And unless you admit your lying and confess your need to do a 180 and repent, your sorrow will be more than you know. Think of your Children. Even your enemies are succoring you now. Their pity wont save you.

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        • Mc2dd,

          I believe and am sure you are misjudging Nate based on what you have attributed to him. Oh please, please just listen and do not condemn.

          I am not his enemy.

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        • I don’t have any enemies on this forum. In fact I don’t know that I have any human enemies.
          Someday I pray we will see eye to eye. I just read an article on Denver snuffers website that touched my heart. I recommend it.
          I know Zion will still be built in this generation. It won’t be done if we continually slander one another and refuse to seek understanding. People of all religions and beliefs will be called out of babylon. I am sure of it. I have a hope that you and I will both be there. I am nothing and rejoice in Christ and His Spirit.

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  30. There is a dense fog between teaching and stating opinion through discourse. “If you receive not the Spirit, you shall not teach”. If we add to the discussion with additional thoughts and/or truths, then we should rejoice. If we add for the sole purpose of appearing a light unto all above the rest; i.e., compelling the rightness of the thought, then their is no addition. We all believe this is a forum of ideas, not a “teaching moment”. When you make it other than that, coinfusion results; thus the former comments.

    We have spent years as Latter-Day Saints thinking and teaching and proposing all to become chosen through our missionary efforts. How much of what has been experienced through the church, its members and hierarchy has resulted us knowing it all or even enough? The scriptures have been around a long time. What makes anyone think they understand them and the rest may not? And if you do understand them better, where is your commission?

    Everyone on this forum are babes in knowing. If we think, since this restoration is not complete, that there are not more clarifying words to come forth, then we are all scribes, pharisees, Zeezroms, Tucantorah, and people of Noah or even the, Tubingen School of Theology. Christ appeared to the Nephites to end disputes on the finer points of His doctrine. Has the Book of Mormon done this? There is hardly agreement on many things contained therein. Does this mean there is more coming to bring no more contention (and this has nothing to do with other readings I have engaged in)? The FAIR, FARMS, NIBLEY, and scholars in general do not agree

    May we all become seekers of wisdom, knowledge, truth and light. That would mean we must not continue to look for error in everything, Seek for understanding through scriptures, the Spirit, and engaging in gracious & conciliatory tones. Ever seek for more.

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  31. I think I’m beginning to notice a pattern here: Log and Minority of One jump onto most of Tim’s blog posts and start arguing with each other (usually nit-picking semantics) – hijacking and monopolizing all the comments sections. Then sfort usually steps in to play the wise mediator and tells everybody to play nice and compromise. Revenger jumps in to second his brother in law Minority, and fuels the flames to keep the game going, and here we go again.

    A few random folks may try to say something but by this time nobody can remember what the heck the original post was about, it’s all become so off-topic, and it’s really just a fight between Log and Minority anyway, who then “take it outside” and write their own essays for Tim to post, which moves it out of comments sections up to page topside, and keeps the fight game going. There are slight variations to the game, but you get the gist.

    As I started to notice this continual sparring pattern of Log and Minority I was reminded of cartoon characters in the old Disney movie Hercules – “Pain and Panic.”

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    • Lynne

      That is well said but you forgot a crucial part of the pattern. Just when everyone seems to be getting along, Lynne posts something with more inflammatory rhetoric (labeling people as cowards and satan worshippers) than anyone else and creates an opportunity for everyone to polarize. Log and I are friends with different opinions but neither of us has resorted to name calling or condemning whole groups of people at once for an opinion. So let’s all acknowledge our parts in the production and not only point at others : ) God bless

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    • Nice and negative. Hope that works for you. Perhaps if you read the thought with the words together, there may be some gain. Anyone who even knows me in the least understand the demeanor and import of the comments I speak. They don’t in the least need to be recognized, for that is not the recognition I seek. Once again you fell into gist of the last of my comments. Sorry for the negative world that surrounds the content you have embraced. Perhaps you can start over again with a new topic for us all to gain, and I will be the first to embrace it.

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  32. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Disney's_Hercules_characters#Pain_and_Panic

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  33. Lynne, you raise some really excellent points. I’ve not been able to put my finger on it these last few weeks, but all the talk of Heavenly Mother seems a little off. I do think it possible for a man (or woman) to interact with Her; but I think generally it would be in connection with The Father – having an audience with Them, not either party separately (and by extension, the Hosts of Heaven, because The Father always has an entourage). The largest issue I’ve had with all this is, as you highlight, it takes the focus off of Christ. 2 Nephi 25:26 is a good mantra to apply in our talking, rejoicing, preaching, and prophesying. Christ is mighty to save. He alone can redeem you. While Heavenly Mother certainly has a role to play, and sustained the plan, those who actually know something on the subject (the authors of the scriptures, Joseph Smith, and I’d include Denver as well) have wisely remained silent on the issue and confined their message to “Come Unto Christ.” His grace really is sufficient to save, redeem, and exalt.

    You’ve also raised lots for me to ponder – before reading your post I’d never considered the possibility that Lucifer and Satan are separate individuals, one of whom is female. I appreciate that so much, as it gives me an avenue in which to ask questions and receive answers.

    Love, light, and a Merry Christmas to all.

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  34. I just read Tim’s post from November about seeking Heavenly Mother, and now this one from Lynne. I’m very confused! Is this one just an alternate possibility?

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  35. me, too. I kep hearing a lot of people are praying to heavenly mother these days because they are hurt alot by men. My friends call her to come to them, and say she comes to them. but I wonder why this is so. Why be they mad at God the Father and stop praying to him because men on earth treat us so wrong? I think I like to keep praying to Father like Jesus showed us how to. I like that is the safe way. I know I have mother and she loves me in heaven, I don’t need to see her right nmow to know that. I will see her and all my family and they will all hug me and kiss me because they love me, I hope.

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