According to His Idols…


golden-calfEzekiel 9  4Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:

And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

What an odd scripture! What could it mean? Through sad experience I have learned what this means. I have practiced idolatry in the past to such a degree that it was very painful when the Lord decided it was time to purge it out of me. I practiced idolatry while at the same time I was receiving revelation from the Holy Ghost on a regular basis. I had been baptized by fire, had many powerful experiences, and had no idea that if the Lord had made His appearance back then, I would have been swept off the earth as dross.

God had to teach me that being baptized by fire was not redemption, not even close. Being baptized by fire in my mind had always equated to being baptized by the Holy Ghost, and entering the strait and narrow way, God had to prove me wrong on that idea as well. Before we can talk about the concept of idolatry and how it affects how God speaks to us, I wanted to give some examples of what the experience of the fire of the Spirit is like.

“…what evidence have I obtained more than I had years ago? Not any. Have I received the Holy Ghost since I was [baptized]? No more [than] when I was [baptized] before. Did I believe the Book of Mormon? No more [than] I did four years ago. Do I believe that Joseph Smith Jun. is a Prophet of God? No, I do not. At this I was shocked at my situation and began to call on the Lord in earnest. And while I was praying, something came on my head … and passed gradually down through my whole system, removing all pain and made me a sound man from the top of my head to the soles of my feet.” – Luman Shurtliff

“I had no sooner opened my lips in an effort to pray, than I heard a sound, just above my head, like the rustling of silken robes, and immediately the Spirit of God descended upon me, completely enveloping my whole person, filling me, from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet, and O, the joy and happiness I felt! No language can describe the almost instantaneous transition from a dense cloud of mental and spiritual darkness into a refulgence of light and knowledge, as it was at that time imparted to my understanding. I then received a perfect knowledge that God lives, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, It was a complete baptism—a tangible immersion in the heavenly principle or element, the Holy Ghost; and even more real and physical in its effects upon every part of my system than the immersion by water; dispelling forever, so long as reason and memory last, all possibility of doubt or fear in relation to the fact handed down to us historically, that the “Babe of Bethlehem” is truly the Son of God; also the fact that He is now being revealed to the children of men, and communicating

knowledge, the same as in the Apostolic times. I was perfectly satisfied, as well I might be, for my expectations were more than realized, I think I may safely say in an infinite degree. I cannot tell how long I remained in the full flow of the blissful enjoyment and divine enlightenment,

but it was several minutes before the celestial element which filled and surrounded me began gradually to withdraw.” – Lorenzo Snow

“At one point in this prayer/meditation, I simply said, “God, I can’t do this anymore. I can’t make any more decisions. I give up! I put my life in your hands.

I wish I could explain this in better detail. Over the last twelve years I’ve never been able to find the words to communicate the physical and mental experience, which happened after I let go.

Upon letting go, there was a bolt of energy, which began at my toes and rifled upward throughout my body. It exploded out the top of my head like a bolt of lightning. As this “energy” traveled upward it was like every cell in my body was energized. The best I can explain it was like the pins and needles one gets, but this was far from being uncomfortable. The experience lasted probably only a second or two, but after it left my body I was left with this euphoria. Almost feeling like I was floating.

Every pain, every frustration, every mental disparity I had been carrying with me, had been ripped from my being at the singular moment. As I left the church (Catholic Church), I had a feeling of clarity, focus, and comfort. All my hate, all my anger, all my desperation was replaced with happiness, love, and sense of hope.” – some guy on the internet with the screen name dfrank70

“I experienced being filled with the Holy Spirit in February 2010, about 1.5 years ago. It happened during a moment of surrender, when I had decided I would no longer hold any of my heart back from God. I was faced with a familiar temptation two times in a row, several days apart. And I prayed to God, right there on the spot, both times, for His power to help me to not fall into that temptation again. As soon as I finished that short prayer, all of a sudden I felt a warmth that started at the top of my head and began moving slowly down my body all the way to my feet. An amazing love and joy immediately welled up inside of me, inside my heart, and my eyes teared up. It was totally unexpected. As the warmth was traveling down my body headed towards my feet, when it got to my hands, I turned my hands over and I looked at both of my palms. And immediately, the very first thought that occurred to me was ” I HAVE to tell somebody about this; I can’t keep this Love to myself any longer. I have to tell somebody, anybody, about Jesus, and soon!” I knew I could no longer keep silent about how much God loves me and how much He loves everyone else, too.”- Carl Garrett

The last two experiences I quoted were from people who did not have a belief in the Book of Mormon and were not in any type of Mormon religion. They, like many others were like the Lamanites who were baptized by fire, “but knew it not.” It isn’t that they didn’t perceive something happened that was quite incredible, it’s that they didn’t know what it meant and that it was actually being baptized by fire. The way I know that each of these experiences happened to each of these individuals is because when I read their accounts the Spirit confirmed the truth of what they said IN THE SAME WAY THEY DESCRIBED IT!!!!

Notice that in every one of these accounts the people were brought by the Lord to see their awful situation. They were humble and realized they were helpless before God and needed grace. Notice the words of “surrender,” “I give up,” “shocked at my situation,” “His power to help me,” and other such language. Often I talk to others and here frustration from them with their lack of spiritual experience. One woman told me that she was in the hospital and her husband was dying. She had already lost a son and she was in terrible pain as you can imagine. She told me she prayed to God and said something like this, “God, I have been faithful and obedient, I have served in all my callings day in and day out, attend the temple regularly, I deserve your comfort and revelation, please speak to me!”

I did not have the heart to tell this woman the obvious problem with her approach. The funny thing is I hear stuff like this all the time! An old home teacher came tentatively to my door and I opened the door to talk with my friend. He was nervous and kind of laughed as he handed me a stake conference invitation. I smiled and said thanks. Then he pointed skyward and glanced up and said, “Just trying to get some blessings from above…” Do we see a problem with the way of thinking that has been passed around like the plague? Now back to the accounts of those who had been baptized by fire above…

Without fail after people have this experience the adversary will immediately try to give them all sorts of ideas. He would love for people to think that being baptized by fire means that everything in their system of worship must be true. Satan will try to have people believe that the spiritual experience was because of some ritual they performed, or because of their righteous actions. Anything he can do to persuade the individual that any credit for the experience is from anyone or anything but the Lord is a success in his eyes.

This is a tactic the adversary will employ over and over again. If a person receives a confirmation during a speech the devil would love for that person to think that EVERYTHING in the speech must be true. If a person receives a confirmation by the Spirit reading a book, the adversary will try to tell that person that EVERYTHING in the book must be true. If someone is told by the Spirit that a certain individual is a prophet, the devil will try to persuade that individual that everything that prophet has taught, or ever will teach is true…and the list goes on and on.

Ok so let’s move on to some things the Spirit IS NOT:

The Spirit IS NOT something that will ever convey a feeling of darkness or discomfort. The devil would like us to think that God answers prayers at times by making us feel uncomfortable about something that we are praying about. People often say that a teaching or idea makes them uncomfortable and they assume immediately it must be false. This darkness could very well be from the “spirit that teacheth not a man to pray…” I often felt this when the Lord was pulling me out of idolatry and a new idea was presented. I had set my heart previously on a way of thinking because others had drilled it into my head. No longer being like a child with an open mind and hear, I thought I could dismiss teachings without receiving a confirmation from the Holy Ghost one way or the other because I simply knew better.

The Spirit IS NOT simply a voice in the mind. Some people meditate (or do rituals or smoke weed or whatever their method of choice is) and get into a peaceful and clear state and begin speaking with their “higher self”, or their “superego” (Freudian Term). People who do this have convinced themselves that their mind is God and they are the people who Ezekiel warned about when he wrote in Ezekiel 13

13 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of theLord;

Thus saith the Lord God; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

These people claiming revelation at times have never received revelation but they wanted it badly enough that they convinced themselves that their conscience is the Holy Ghost. Usually this higher voice tells them “good” things but they will never have a sure knowledge of anything that has been told to them by this voice unless they receive the Holy Ghost. This kind of pseudo-revelation is running rampant in the Mormon movement. This is the type that people talk about when they had a sudden thought about sending cookies or visiting someone. People then look for evidence later that the thought was revelation and find confirmation with their intellect instead of from God. Often this will cause people to ask things like “was that profound thought from me, or from God?” Hopefully you get the idea…Another way that this type of thing happens is after someone has been baptized by fire and they still think God gives answers in different ways. I did for a while and had to learn the hard way that I was sinning and listening to myself.

The Holy Ghost IS NOT the fruits of the Spirit. That should go without saying but people often confuse this for some reason. People who have never tasted of the Spirit can still feel joy, peace, worldly love, and some of the other fruits. Feeling these emotions does not mean you are experiencing the Holy Ghost.

I guess what I am trying to get across is that EVERY time the Holy Ghost speaks to us, it will be in the same way we received it the first time. When someone is baptized by fire, it is God’s way of telling them that He indeed exists, and He is showing us how He speaks to us. I have talked to some people who believe that being baptized by fire actually means the Holy Ghost becomes their permanent companion and they think they can then just interpret things with the new enlightenment that the initial experience gave them. When I present to them the idea that the Spirit will always speak in the same way as the first revelation they received during the baptism of fire, they almost always react in the same way and say something like this, “That is not true, the burning of the Holy Ghost doesn’t happen that often…”

It doesn’t happen that often for who? Let me get back to the idolatry. If we set our hearts upon a belief system and have decided that the belief system of choice has a “fullness” of truth, and nothing outside of this set of beliefs can be true, this is idolatry. This doesn’t mean you won’t receive revelation from time to time, it just means you have confined the Lord to only give revelation that will seem to confirm that certain set of beliefs. This is damnation and the damned have no idea they are in bondage. Often when presented with a new idea, they will reply with doctrines prescribed within their belief system by religious leaders that simply couldn’t be wrong. This brings the backwards thinking that the Spirit should be checked by the doctrines that have been set forth in the past, instead of the doctrines in the past being checked by the Spirit. This is certain bondage!

One blessing that has been given to many people is the revelation that “The Book of Mormon is true.” Thank God for that book. I have not met a soul that has ever learned by revelation that any other book is true in its entirety. I have prayed about many other books and never been told the same thing. I have experienced the Holy Ghost reading the Bible, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and many other inspired books, many of which people call scripture, but I have yet to have the Spirit reveal to me that any other book is true besides the Book of Mormon. If we feel that every revelation has to be compared to previous scripture, I suggest we not be hypocrites and take a look at some things taught in the Doctrine and Covenants…

Doctrine and Covenants 88:15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.

There are dozens of scriptures that contradict this but I will give only one from the Book of Mormon, and one from the Bible.

Alma 40:23 The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Doctrine and Covenants 124:49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.

This verse actually has multiple things that contradict other scripture, as well as other verses in the section, but here is a contradicting verse that all of us are probably familiar with…

1 Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Doctrine and Covenants 132 (There are quite a few in this section but let’s go for the most obvious) verse 38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

Can that really be justified with this? Jacob 2: 24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

Who was cross-checking Joseph Smith’s revelations with the other scriptures? We must ask ourselves in such cases if Joseph was more than a man and more than flesh? Does he apply to the human beings that other prophets had counseled us not to put our trust in. These are just a few examples that came to mind, what about all of the new revelation that was unprecedented in scripture? How can we know if it is all true? Sure the Spirit can bear witness to us that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Have people interpreted this to mean that we can simply just trust that whatever he taught was right? We cannot know unless God tells us. The Spirit has told me without exception to not simply trust in anything anyone has ever taught, even if the teaching seems to make sense.

Someone recently said that they don’t believe we need revelation on things that are already contained in the scriptures, but how can we know if the scriptures are true?! Please tell me if the philosophy of only trusting things that are revealed by the Spirit is just a crazy idea. Seriously I have seen more anger because of this philosophy than almost anything else I have shared. Especially when I point out that even teachings of certain prominent men need to be set aside unless we receive a confirmation from the Spirit.

I am not going to say that there is only one way that the Holy Ghost is experienced, I will just tell some fruits that I know come from pure revelation. Pure revelation does not have to be doubted because after it is received we know it. Pure revelation comes with power. The power is not anything that can be produced by our body, it is not always with ANY mortal right now. Even experiencing this power once will change someone’s life. The Holy Ghost will bring the fruits of the Spirit always. To have the Holy Ghost upon us is greater than seeing any being without the power of the Holy Ghost. After the Nephites had been visited and taught personally by Jesus Christ, let’s look at what the disciples prayed for in 3 Nephi 19,

8 And when they had ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken—nothing varying from the words which Jesus had spoken—behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.

9 And they did pray for that which they most desired; and they desired that the Holy Ghost should be given unto them.

Ok why would these men be praying for the Holy Ghost? It was well documented that a couple of them had performed miracles, even raised the dead…Do you think they had never experienced the Holy Ghost? Of course they had, but they knew that the Holy Ghost was not something that just came and stayed with someone always. I know in church we get the idea that of the Holy Ghost being a constant companion that is always in us. This is not what is contained in the Bible and Book of Mormon, the Holy Ghost is powerful! When He is present the fire of God is present and amazing things happen. Pure knowledge is revealed. The idea that someone is always experiencing the Holy Ghost in mortality is just not the case. To borrow someone’s word it is “an entertaining fantasy.” That is why I have been trying to share that to really enter God’s rest we must receive the Spirit of The Lord. The Spirit of the Lord is self explanatory, it is exactly what it is stated to be.

If someone receives the Spirit of the Lord they enter God’s rest. They are redeemed. This is taught in numerous places in the scriptures and I have already shared it. Ok so back to idolatry. Those people who know how to receive answers by the Spirit and have been baptized by fire are not in the clear. Let me give you a few real life examples I have heard from people I love. I know these people know how the Spirit speaks, I know their answers were given from God because the Spirit confirmed them to me.

I asked a local bishop if he had ever been told by God that the LDS church was the only true church. He thought back and said he wasn’t sure that the Spirit had ever directly told him that, but all of his other spiritual experiences pointed to the church being true. I challenged this good brother to pray and not rest until the Spirit told him one way or another on the matter. After about a week I talked to him and he said he had been darkened all week trying to get an answer, the devil had attacked him. It seemed the adversary didn’t want him praying about it…Anyway he said on Sunday he went to his church and the darkness left and he prayed and the spirit came and gave him an answer. This was the answer, “Everything the Spirit has told you is true.” So because of my friends idolatry he decided this answer meant that at some point the Spirit had told him his church was true, and this was a confirmation that the church was true, even though he had admitted a week before he didn’t know the Spirit had told him his church was true. Hmmm…

Here is an interesting one, someone a while back was being a real nitwit and bashing on Denver Snuffer saying he knew Denver had no keys and was a liar. I asked how he knew Denver had no keys and was a liar, he then claimed revelation on the subject. I asked him what the Spirit had told him EXACTLY… He explained that he had read Denver’s books and loved them and after his final lecture he was really disturbed because of the idea of the LDS church not being everything he wanted it to be. So he took it to the Lord in prayer until he received this revelation, “I (the Lord) will not preach through an apostate.”

I prayed and asked God if he really gave this person the revelation and had it confirmed to me that he did. The brother because of his idolatry perceived this answer to mean that Denver Snuffer was apostate, and the Lord couldn’t teach through him. Now he spends his days bashing on anyone outside the church or acting outside of the mainstream because he just knows the truth of the matter…

How about this revelation from one of my neighbors, “I know that the church is true because the Spirit told me plainly that Thomas S Monson, President Eyring, and President Uchtdorf are the leaders of the church.” Wait a second, I would think that was a bad sign if the Spirit told me such a thing, but this woman assumed she knew what the Spirit was really telling her.

One more that made me laugh, I had told a brother that the Spirit had told me that Thomas S Monson was not a seer or revelator, this brother went to the Lord in prayer and after a frustrating few days of prayer the Spirit told him, “Thomas S Monson is the president of the church.” Man it almost makes my head explode. Of course he is the president of the lds church! I can look up the president of a restaurant chain too, but the idolatry of people is such that they only open their hearts to things that will seem to confirm their paradigm.

People who care more about their way of life or set of beliefs than they care about the truth, will never receive a fullness of truth. There are countless examples that I have seen of this. Some of the people who have received the baptism of fire and received pure revelation are gonna be the first ones to go in the coming days! They are those who have learned of the Spirit, then supposed “they knew of themselves” how to interpret every revelation given them.

I cannot explain how many times people have shared testimonies with me and say they have learned by revelation that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the Book of Mormon is true, and therefore……………. AHHH!!!! All I can say is let’s please take a look at what WE KNOW. What has the Holy Ghost told us specifically word for word? If a person was only told by the Spirit that “GOD IS REAL” and teaches nothing but that, without pretending to know what it means or anything else, that person would be much better off than one who receives a handful of things, but continually teaches all sorts of other things on top of that.

I promise that if we will only trust in the revelation that is undeniable and carries sure knowledge with the power given by the Spirit, that God will begin to give more if we seek it. If we continue to claim knowledge on things God has never told us, we will continue to know less and less of the mysteries until we “know nothing.” This world is in serious bondage right now and there has been a famine of hearing the word of the Lord for a very long time. A day of miracles is approaching. I know it. I think great things are in store for 2015. I appreciate Tim being willing to share other ideas and different viewpoints. Disagreement should never cause a lack of love. There are so many things being taught by so many people that we must gain a sure knowledge of each thing taught by the Holy Ghost. God bless and happy New Year!

 

 

 

16 Responses

  1. You wouldn’t believe it but I’ve had this sort of idea for the past few weeks, Nate. I have realized I have prayed to an idol before when trying to worship the LDS Christ. It’s been wrong and that’s been obvious in my supposed answers and the answers of others. They often did little more than confuse both me and them. The explanation you gave at how and why The Lord is forced to “deceive us” never made better sense. You are solving things that have been mysteries in my life. They fit so well and explain so many things. Sometimes I’ve wondered if you’ve been inspired or not–of course I always wonder as is the duty of man but I’ve doubted. Upon a closer look this sermon stood firm. Thank you.

    What has worked for me is worshipping the righteousness of Christ, rather than Christ. Sound weird? Let me explain myself. When I try to seek for Christ or God what I pray to out of habit in my mind is not who They really are. So I try to align myself with their Spirit rather than just their names or what I’ve heard about them. That enables me to worship the Living Christ rather than a dead one.

    I hoped to turn that idea into a blog post one day but never could find more words than a paragraph to illustrate the concept. Perhaps this is why. (Your posts are mega long by the way! Haha. 😉 )

    Thanks again for inspiring teachings,
    Victor

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    • Ha ha I need to learn to get a point across in less words for sure. I like what you said about worship. To me that makes a whole lot of sense. Our spirits know what God is more than our brains in mortality know and our spirits want to worship. Kind of reminds me of what Paul said about our spirits groaning within us as we as humans do not always have the right words in prayer.
      The funniest thing about what is happening today is people from all sorts of belief systems are fighting each other. Denver snuffer fans are fighting thomas monson fans and many people who vehemently oppose each other are experiencing the same spirit from time to time but they have convinced themselves that the spirit has taught them everyone else is wrong. Someday a lot of people will laugh and hug it out when they learn that they all were worshipping the same God. See even my comments are long. Ugh 🙂

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  2. Just to be clear, are you saying that the Holy Ghost is only the warm feeling that “energizes” you from head to toe? or can you “hear” the Holy Ghost in other ways?

    The reason I ask is you also stated:”The Spirit IS NOT something that will ever convey a feeling of darkness or discomfort.”

    I’m sure Nephi, when asked to cut of Laban’s head, might have had a moment or two of discomfort. And from his description of the event, he didn’t seem to have this warm feeling either, yet he clearly thinks the Spirit is speaking to him.

    So I’m just wondering how his discomfort over killing Laban jives together with your idea of the warm feeling thing.

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    • I never have really felt the spirit as temperature rising or a literal warmth. I have had struggles where revelation is clear and powerful and immediately brings the fruits of the spirit but the next minute because my brain was fighting it I had a sense of dread and needed another confirmation from the Spirit. It seems nephi was going through this and needed the Spirit to tell him multiple times because of course his brain was fighting it.
      In any of the scriptures there is not one example of the Holy Ghost speaking by way of discomfort or darkness. The comforter does not speak discomfort. We can become uncomfortable after the revelation because of the implications of what we were told but during the revelation there is always light and assurance.

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  3. MinofOne,

    Thank you for this. I don’t take any credit for this, but it sounds like I wrote this!!! In the Archives of Mentinah, the common theme throughout the volumes is that when a spiritual leader or a prophet says anything, they must take it to the Lord to get confirmation of the Holy Ghost. I have commented on this many times. And if they did not get confirmation, they do not follow any counsel, period. This also has to do with those voted on in council for positions of leadership.

    I think the Spirit of the Lord is mixed up very much with the Holy Ghost. When we are commanded to do something of the Lord, it is His spirit that commands. The Holy Ghost is a revealer. When the Savior said, “we must be like little children”, He wasn’t fooling around with this statement. We have to unloose all bands of belief system through years of habit, before we are enlightened. Like my sweet wife always says, “we have to get all the junk out to leave room for truth.” It is like the glass of stones and water. The stones prohibit the living water to fill the glass full. If we want more water, the stones have to be discarded.

    I don’t like heaping praise on men, but a small thank you for your posts. I have been praying and studying “words”. I do not ask if things or people are “true”. I ask if words, phrases, thoughts, and parables are true. It is the words that are most important. In the beginning was the Word. Words spoken are invaluable when truth resides in them.

    Everyone will be surprised to wake up and see that things we always thought were correct for us, have all been illusury. It takes humility, meekness and searching to put yourself in a position of “social risk”. We must be like little children. Thank you for your thoughts. Happy New Year.

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    • Thanks Sfort

      I agree with everything you said. This is one thing that I have enjoyed about the mentinah archives as I have been reading them as well. I am still slowly plugging away and in the third volume.
      The one thing that keeps popping up is to only trust the Holy Ghost which is beautiful and right in line with what The Lord had been pounding into my head. I like what you said about words and phrases. Any writing without those moments of revelation would just be writing. I have certainly had some of those moments reading the mentinah and also I have been selectively reading the Kabbalah and have had some of those moments. I try to read everything with an open heart without judgement and seek for the good and set aside things that do not resonate. It is an adventure and certainly creates social risk like you said but it becomes easier and easier as God has already lead me to become an “outcast”. Thanks brother

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      • My favorite writings include Lao Tsu. ” I have three treasures, guard them and keep them safe: The first is love, the second is moderation, the third is never be the first in the world.” The archives are my study because they have solidified structure I hadnt found before. The truth contained therein brings peace and surety to me. I believe they are as significant in our day as the Book of Mormon was in its day. It supports, sustains and expands that some of which we have thought we knew.

        Many have catalysts in their journey. This one is mine. It seems to bring many answers to us not previously given. You have a question? You may be able to answer it in these volumes. The Spirit told me to read 1, then two and then 4 first. I since have read 3, then 2 & 4 again, then 5 & 6. The amazing understanding of women, the Holy Ghost and the integration of the savior, the Holy Ghost and the Father makes me feel I am indeed part of a great work among us. The Love of God concerning the New and Everlasting Covenant is thrilling to me.

        Deceptive writings could not make me feel nor act the way I do, with more love, faith and hope. It seems like I am some sort of spokesman, but this is all embryonic for me with no agenda. I am just grateful to share some truths. Thanks for your thoughts

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        • I have many questions! Ha ha I think deceptive is a strange word. At this point I would not be surprised if someone saw problems with the church and is writing the mentinah with a lot of spiritual knowledge and has perhaps thought they are truly writing scripture. I do not know that though. The other thing about the mentinah is that it is claimed to be a translation from multiple skins and records. If that is true then it is very possible that some of the records are true and some are not.
          The translators (assuming they exist) have admitted the translation is uninspired and is based off of a Rosetta Stone type of help with the quiche language being the similar language. That opens up the very probable possibility that a lot of it is translated incorrectly and errors abound.
          Between those three ideas I would recommend people read it and glean truth from it if God leads them to. I have had spiritual confirmations about some things written in the mentinah but a couple of things the spirit has told me are not right with it. One of the best discourses I have ever read on the Holy Ghost is in the mentinah and they teach women can have the priesthood. I am still trying to pin down the idea of Holy Ghost people. The spirit has told me people can reach the station of the Holy Ghost so I know that the idea of multiple beings being the Holy Ghost is a reality and I love the idea of the Holy Ghost “imprinting” upon people. That is a truth I had accepted long ago.
          Either way I cannot recommend against reading the mentinah in fact I suggest if people are lead to it they should read it. I do not know of it’s role in the building up of Zion. The Book of Mormon promises the sealed portion when we are ready as a people. I have so many questions and look forward to answers.
          I consider the Tao te Ching to be scripture with very few errors in it. I think people have grossly misinterpreted a lot of it in Taoism movements which is sad but seems to happen with every sacred text.

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        • MinOne,

          I understand where you are coming from. That is why I do not look exclusively for historical veracity in writings. The 3rd and 5th volumes are a blueprint for living a Zion community. It is true for me. It will assist, I believe the remnant in establishing Zion. A bold statement I knoe. We have used the bible for many years with the concepts therein, translated correctly or not.

          The Book of Mormon has had several significant changes, but we cling to every word. That is why it is thoughts, ideas, phrases, context, that help us come to Christ; not whether the authenticity is validated. Such be the book of Abraham. There is truth in this and you cannot prove a single word was authentically translated from any document, but it needed to be written.

          The writers of the Nemenhah say that the Lord preserves his words upon the Way to come forth at the appropriate time. Whatever the Telestial evidence suggests, we have more amazing words at our disposal today then at any point in time. How blessed we are.

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  4. Great points I agree with that completely and I have no doubt many more things are coming and I agree all things are part of the great plan.
    Something interesting I learned that I thought others might be interested in is that scientists have found that the earths frequency has risen from 4.0 hertz to 4.4 hertz and they are trying to find what the affects of this are but people have mentioned how our spirits vibrate and you have mentioned higher vibrations. I believe this is preparing us for a higher baptism or for our beings to be glorified to a higher state and now it is documented the earth is now vibrating at a higher frequency for whatever reason. Interesting stuff.

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  5. Sfort and Minorityofone….

    I have been following your dialog in the comment area. Very interesting…I may have read some of mentinah archives several years ago but did not keep a record of where I could find them again. Are these the records that have been found in caves above Spring City, Utah?

    Minorityofone

    After reading your post, I have to admit I’m greatly discouraged. Reading your post makes me feel like I have never been inspired by the Spirit and I have misjudged the few experiences I have had. There seems to be a formula that is so exact that it leaves my head spinning.

    You and Sfort and others seem to have the privilege of having the Spirit speak or confirm everything, almost on a daily basis, and know with confidence, you are being directed by the Spirit, especially if you are confirming every scripture verse and every thing else you hear and read. You seem to know that others are not getting revelation by the Spirit but are being deceived. You seem pretty self-confident in knowing how it all works.

    Why does it have to be so hard when there are many truly seeking truth and confirmation. By the way, I don’t sense there are many women in the “in crowd.”

    I’m not trying to be malicious here… truly! Just frustrated! I just want to know if you feel the “fire” every single time, a voice, a small still voice…. what?

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    • Kathryn

      I truly don’t know why the Spirit comes to people and sometimes it doesn’t. It is all part of God’s plan for individuals and like I have said so many times it is not because of worthiness or righteousness because we are all sinners in mortality.
      God gives and withholds. I don’t feel the Spirit during every verse of scripture. If I feel the fire a few times a day that is a normal day now.
      One spiritual impression I have had is that God sometimes withholds answers for decades from people then will pour out the Spirit upon them later in life. I don’t know why but there is no doubt if you continue to seek it will come at some point. I appreciate your comment and understand from your perspective people like me can either appear as pompous and arrogant or deluded fools or all of the above…

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  6. Hello MOO.
    You say D&C 124:49 “has multiple things that contradict other scripture, as well as other verses in the section, and then talk about 1 Nephi 3:7.

    I can see what you’re talking about there, but what internal contradictions do you see in D&C 124?

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    • Mike

      Great question. I pointed out the most obvious and of course if I am talking to a rigid believer in all of the doctrine and covenants they will pull and twist and stretch everything so that the interpretation can match up with other scriptures and I have no desire to do that.
      The very next verse (if I remember right) talks about men hindering the work of God. That is blatant false doctrine that certainly contradicts other scriptures. I actually don’t believe much if any of that section is inspired. Probably half of it is calling for people to bring riches to Zion or else to build up an investment property. People do not like the idea of city creek and yet joseph (or as believers would say God) spent much of this section commanding people to buy stock…. Really?
      I obviously don’t know your beliefs and I apologize if this is offensive. I respect people’s beliefs and if you trust fully in the doctrine and covenants I respect that. I also have my own witness concerning baptisms for the dead and joseph seemed to be alluding that this was instituted before the foundation of the world and even brought up the tabernacle of moses that alluded to have a connection to baptism for the dead which the church has taught never happened until after the resurrection of Jesus. It is unclear what he was getting at but I think the whole section is a lot of gobble de gook…. Also in section 132 it mentions only one man being able to hold the keys and power that joseph was giving to hyrum in section 124. Apparently others were given these same keys and power so there is definitely a discrepancy somewhere.

      I don’t know the point of those examples was to point out that it might be a good idea to pray and receive confirmations of things before we simply trust they were from God. We cannot just assume because joseph smith said something it was true. In my mind that would be idolatry.

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  7. i really liked this post and I agree with most of what you said, but I don’t feel like what you said about the Holy Ghost only giving good comforting feelings is true. I believe the Holy Ghost can give us feelings of concern, warning or alarm if the situation permits.

    I’ll give you 2 examples. The first is a time when my mom felt she needed to check on my brother when he was a baby. She checked on him 3 times before she realized that something had wrapped itself around his neck.

    Second, I once was overcome by severe uneasy feelings late one night. I had just come back to the church after years of inactivity and riotous living about 7 years ago. I finally had gained a testimony of the Book of Mormon, and I was praying to know that this was still gods church, still where he wanted me to be. I got that feeling and every time I closed my eyes I saw flashes of light. I felt like something very bad or evil had or was happening and I got up and checked on my family and made sure my doors where locked. Finally the feeling subsided and I fell asleep. When my alarm woke me up the next morning the news story was talking about how my stake center had just burned down, and the Holy Ghost came upon me and told me that it was still his church and where he wanted me to be.

    Any thoughts on this?

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    • Great questions

      First with your mom, I believe our spirits are very sensitive. Especially when it comes to family, and even more so with mothers. If there is something out of wack often our spirit knows and senses that something isn’t right. Your mom knew something didn’t seem right but she didn’t know what it was exactly until she found out the third time. If the Holy Ghost would have told her “your child is choking!” She would have instantly known exactly what to look for. Imagine also in some scenarios where people are not quite “in tune” (not saying this was the case with your mom) and angels from the other side are yelling at them to do something or that something is wrong. The person would not get a clear message but our spirits are often sensitive to things around us. The Holy Ghost is what can clarify with assurance what exactly is going on….

      Ok so with example number two I am going to be forthright with the possibility of offending you but keep in mind this is from an outsider looking in and you asked for my opinion.
      If someone prays for something and they do not want the answer that God is trying to send them they will get cognitive dissonance like crazy. It feels oppressive and heavy and dark. When you were asking if the church was true, God may have been trying to send you am answer you were not willing to get. In the morning you heard your stake center burned down and then the spirit came and gave you an answer you were willing to accept. Something like “this is my church, this is my church…” Is that right?
      Then you probably were quite positive God was saying “this church that people burned down (the LDS church) is my church”. What if?…. Stay with me and ponder on this, what if God was telling you that His church was within you. God teaching you by the Holy Ghost one on one is what constitutes His church… He sent that truth to you at a moment where He knew that you would be willing to receive it because you would link it to what you heard on the radio…
      I know that you probably have felt like you knew God was talking about what was on the radio but think of the words sent and what they really mean THIS is my church. Not something out there that has to do with building and corporations. The kingdom of God is within you…
      Of course who am I to interpret other’s revelations? That is between you and God but those are my thoughts…

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