O Babylon, We Bid Thee Farewell


a-modern-day-caliphateSome of you may know I have definite ideas when it comes to the end times, specifically about what the Lord is going to do in regards to the destruction of the wicked. I am a catastrophist, which means I take literally the word of the Lord in which He says He will fight our battles for us. You can read more about what I believe and the scriptures that support that in this PDF link.

However, there is one event prophesied in scripture I have always wondered might very well be a man-made catastrophe, or in other words, a nuclear holocaust. You can read about it in chapter thirteen of Isaiah. Symbolism in the latter verses of the chapter is rich with images representing a piece of earth that will not be inhabited for generations because of the deadly effects of radiation.

Empty For Generation After Generation

I like this version sent to me by a friend in a recent email, along with his own commentary.

“Look, I will stir up the Medes against Babylon.
They cannot be tempted by silver
or bribed with gold.

The attacking armies will shoot down the young men with arrows.
They will have no mercy on helpless babies
and will show no compassion for children.”

Babylon, the most glorious of kingdoms,
the flower of Chaldean pride,
will be devastated like Sodom and Gomorrah
when God destroyed them.

Babylon will never be inhabited again.
It will remain empty for generation after generation.
Nomads will refuse to camp there,
and shepherds will not bed down their sheep.

Desert animals will move into the ruined city,
and the houses will be haunted by howling creatures.
Owls will live among the ruins,
and wild goats will go there to dance.

Hyenas will howl in its fortresses,
and jackals will make dens in its luxurious palaces.
Babylon’s days are numbered;
its time of destruction will soon arrive.

Religious Significance Of The Middle East

isis-influence-mapBabylon, of course, no longer exists, as least not as a place inhabited today. The ruins of Babylon lie some fifty miles south of Baghdad. When we speak of Babylon now we usually refer to the influence of worldliness. Perhaps this 20-minute video from the Isaiah Institute will give you a better feel for how the Lord uses Babylon as a type or shadow of things to come in the last days.

Often when Westerners hear news of atrocities in the middle-east they dismiss them as simply the way things are over there, never believing such things could happen in the United States. For those who understand the scriptures, especially Isaiah, they know there is great significance to the idea of Babylon rising again as a political power. It signifies the beginning of the end times.

A Caliphate Has Been Declared

Rather than get into all the background of Babylon, I’ll refer you to Adrian Larsen’s post on the subject over on his blog, To The Remnant. Adrian provides an excellent explanation as to why all the whole world should pray that Baghdad does not fall. Of course Baghdad is not Babylon, at least not yet. If the Islamic state captures Baghdad, then Babylon will once again be among us.

isis-united-statesA Caliphate has been declared once again, something Islam has not had in over five hundred years. That means millions of Muslims are preparing to take jihad to a whole new level. You can’t have a real Caliphate without territory and lots of it. The publically stated goal of this Caliphate is to capture Baghdad from which to conduct massive war, specifically upon Israel.

The Use of Nuclear Weapons

In order to defend itself, Israel will be forced to use nuclear weapons. The caliph, a person considered a political and religious successor to the prophet Muhammad and a leader of the entire Muslim community, expects and desires this. They have prophecies about Armageddon just as we do in the bible. They believe their role is to bring about this all-out war of nations.

You read Isaiah chapter thirteen again and tell me if it doesn’t describe a land made desolate by nuclear attack. I hope and pray that Baghdad doesn’t fall to ISIL (see footnote), because that would be the beginning of the end. The Islamic State will quickly amass an army of millions, who will come from many nations with one objective – to destroy Israel, which they will almost accomplish.

Pray That Baghdad Does Not Fall

isis-territoryIf Israel nukes Babylon / Baghdad, the whole world, including the United States will turn against the tiny nation. Then nothing will be able to save Jerusalem except divine intervention. We will all be surprised by how fast this escalates if Baghdad falls. Yet so few seem to be aware of what is happening in Syria and Iraq. But the God of Heaven has asked us to turn our attention there.

Along with many others, I am fasting and praying today, specifically that Baghdad will not fall. There are thousands of Christians and Muslims in the city who do not espouse the extreme ways of ISIL. Abraham interceded with “The God of Heaven” when Jehovah contemplated destroying Sodom and Gomorrah. Perhaps our united faith and prayers today will do the same for Baghdad.


For a more in-depth analysis of the perilous situation in Baghdad read Graeme Wood’s article in the Atlantic. The map illustrating this post is taken from that publication.

Footnote: ISIS stands for the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. ISIL is the acronym for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. The differentiation between the word ‘Syria’ and the word ‘Levant’ is actually quite significant. It makes a big difference because of this: ISIL includes Levant, which includes the area we like to call Israel. The Islamic State has designs that go from Iran through Egypt. There is no Israel in their plans.

73 Responses

  1. After reading Snuffer’s one-liner a few days ago, Larsen’s excellent explanation, and your words today, I cannot arrive at any other conclusion except that the current caliphate is the physical and spiritual opposite of Zion.

    It is indeed sobering to witness the literal fulfillment of prophecy and scripture. The mandate to “love God and love your neigbor” exists in stark contrast to the mandate to “kill them all.”

    I prefer the God of love and pray that He manifest himself as soon as we will allow him to.

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  2. Prophecy is not given so you can anticipate the details beforehand. Prophecy is only given so that after the event takes place, you can then understand the scriptures’ meaning. Only after He has acted can you understand how the Lord intended to accomplish His will and fulfill His promise. Prophecy’s purpose is not to allow you beforehand to know the events with enough specificity so that God’s will could be anticipated, prevented, and frustrated. If you knew what He was up to, you could prevent it. But because you do not, when the prophecies are fulfilled, then you know the Lord has acted. God can use any means He chooses to accomplish His promises. Everything God is doing is not disclosed at the time it is underway.

    I needn’t point out who it was who said that.

    So, assuming this is true, we may as well stop speculating on why “all the world should pray that Baghdad does not fall.” Unless something’s changed very recently, I expect Larsen’s post to be entirely speculative, as is yours, Tim.

    So, who thinks “the whole world” will pray for Babylon? If that’s the condition for Baghdad not falling, then it shall fall, eh?

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    • Denver addresses God’s word to ‘all the world’ knowing full well that only a few thousand heretics read Denver’s blog.

      The real question is this: Do we really believe that the prayers of a few thousand heretics would move God to protect the 7 million people that live in Baghdad from the horde that is at their doors waiting to plunder, rape, enslave and murder them?

      What if we were actually Zion, instead of a people trying to be? Would our prayers matter then? I think they definitely would.

      My wife’s mind, on reading this post, went to chapters 4 & 5 of TSC in which Denver says that one of the steps to receiving TSC is to make an intercession for others. Lehi made an intercession. Abraham attempted to, and the Lord would’ve honored Abram’s request if there were any righteous in Sodom and Gomorrah. I’m willing to bet there are thousands of righteous people in Baghdad, and a million more who would be if they had the truth preached to them.

      I think we are being tested here, as individuals and as a community. If we want to be a community of people in which the Savior can live, we need to fast and pray to spare the people of Baghdad. We do not know anyone there, and it is extremely unlikely that ISIS can affect our lives directly in the USA.

      We are being tested to see if we can have mercy on a bunch of strangers who adhere to a strange and sometimes evil religion (because of the traditions of their fathers) with no self interest to be gained, even if it prolongs the time until the second coming.

      If we really do have sufficient faith, and Baghdad is spared because of the prayers of a few thousand heretics, even if only for a short time, then we will have made a big step toward establishing Zion.

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      • Let me explain why I don’t find you persuasive on this point, at least in part: we’re being asked to take sides, in prayer at least, in what amounts to a civil war.

        Why shouldn’t I have charity, as you have put it, on ISIS against Iraq? Why shouldn’t I pray, “God, please bless ISIS?”

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        • Uh, actually, it was Angelina who used the word “charity,” whereas you said “mercy.”

          But the question I have asked admits of only one consistent answer that I can see – are you willing to give it?

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        • This is not just a civil war. These are evil people, doing evil things. Their desire is to conquer the world, kill Christians and annihilate Israel. This is contrary to the purposes of the God of Heaven. He has given every man, woman and child the light of Christ. We can know for ourselves murder, torture, rape and acts of terror are not pleasing to the Lord. Thus I will not pray for the extremists who advocate these methods, other than to pray they repent of such evil behavior. I have no problem taking sides in this matter. It is clear to me.

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        • Have you talked to any of them, Tim? Do you have knowledge, or are you reacting to reports and rumors?

          And why should the modern nation-state of Israel be of special concern? What of Palestine?

          Do you not see the can of worms that opens up once we accept the principle that it is just or right to meddle in the internal affairs of others? Would you want them doing it to you?

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        • I understand your concern, but are you not aware that the so-called ISIS was directly funded by the US government and the Saudi’s? In my opinion and from my personal research, Mystery Babylon is everywhere but most prevalent in the power structure of the United States for the past 100 years. The shadow government of the US funds the enemy to foment wars. Wars make trillions of dollars for big banks and weapons manufactures through weapons contracts at the expense of tax payers and an inflated dollar.

          Why do you think the name ISIS or ISIL all of a sudden took hold on the minds of the American public? I would suggest we are dealing with a heavy dose of propaganda in this country on TV, radio. Our government has gone rouge since Lincoln suspended the writ of Habeas Corpus. ISIS is Al Qaeda. ISIS is the “Moderate rebels” the US openly funded in 2013, and NOW they are our sworn enemy? Where do you think they got those vehicles and weapons?

          Just some questions to consider Tim, I agree there are evil “terrorists” but they have been funded by the US Government openly and covertly.

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    • I agree that the prophecies of the Lord are usually so vague that we cannot do anything to change the results; and yet they are purposely clear enough to be recognized when fulfilled.

      In that light, I agree that commentary as to WHY we should pray is merely speculation. But what I’ve seen is damn insightful speculation, in my book.

      Nevertheless, I’m open to the possibility that it could all be wrong. As I’m certain the authors are, as well. I take them at their intent: not to interpret and prophesy of their own accord, nor to hold themselves up as a light, but to provide evidences sufficient to arouse belief in a declaration from a servant of God… evidences sufficient to nurture belief. Belief to receive the counsel given. Believe yielding unto faith as a principle of action. And faith BY sacrifice. And covenants BY sacrifice.

      These aren’t merely journalistic and tactical analyses. .. we have dozens of those available. But none with the intent as I believe has been the intent of Tim and Adrian and others of faith.

      What the Lord wills to happen will happen regardless of our prayers or lack thereof. I believe this invitation to pray is purely for our own souls.

      Will we have charity for both the victims and perpetrators on the other side of the world?

      Will we have charity for both the victims and perpetrators in our own lives?

      Will we heed the voice of God as Adam and Eve did for a LONG time before finally receiving the explanation and meaning?

      This is really not about Baghdad or the current world events at all. It’s about choosing to receive the words of a prophet of God as the Lord’s– regardless of any analysis– or not.

      As a knowledgeable and wise man said just prior to the Invitation:

      “The trial is underway. The world must choose correctly.”

      Baghdad is a peripheral issue. Very urgent, yes. But the core issue is:

      “The trial is underway. The world must choose correctly.”

      Trial of what?

      Choose what correctly?

      The comings and goings of the reign of blood and horror on this earth are all best understood when we can answer those two questions. I don’t have the answers yet. But the speculation is highly motivating to generate real faith BY sacrifice and obtain a covenant BY sacrifice regarding all of this.

      Which may just be the answers, indeed.

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      • This is really not about Baghdad or the current world events at all. It’s about choosing to receive the words of a prophet of God as the Lord’s– regardless of any analysis– or not.

        Thus far I can agree – the analysis is irrelevant.

        But the speculation is highly motivating to generate real faith BY sacrifice and obtain a covenant BY sacrifice regarding all of this.

        I have heard those who deny the historicity of the Book of Mormon say something similar about the utility of faith-promoting stories or parables.

        I’m not sure I would, myself, be motivated to sacrifice anything based on speculation. But to each their own.

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        • This surprises me Log. You, who preach the second commandment with great fervor does not love enough to sacrifice for your brother’s welfare and safety–if only for that alone? Or do I misunderstand you?

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        • D&C 98:33-38
          33 And again, this is the law that I gave unto mine ancients, that they should not go out unto battle against any nation, kindred, tongue, or people, save I, the Lord, commanded them.

          34 And if any nation, tongue, or people should proclaim war against them, they should first lift a standard of peace unto that people, nation, or tongue;

          35 And if that people did not accept the offering of peace, neither the second nor the third time, they should bring these testimonies before the Lord;

          36 Then I, the Lord, would give unto them a commandment, and justify them in going out to battle against that nation, tongue, or people.

          37 And I, the Lord, would fight their battles, and their children’s battles, and their children’s children’s, until they had avenged themselves on all their enemies, to the third and fourth generation.

          38 Behold, this is an ensample unto all people, saith the Lord your God, for justification before me.

          Has this standard been met? No.

          Are not the people on both sides of every conflict my brothers and sisters? Yes.

          Why then should I take sides, or even arms, in others’ affairs?

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        • You wrote:

          “I’m not sure I would, myself, be motivated to sacrifice anything based on speculation. But to each their own.”

          While I’m still an Internet forum tenderfoot/greenhorn as compared to some of you veterans, I think I’ve been around the Internet block at least once. So I’ve seen a lot of replies to my posts. Many agree with me, many don’t.

          All replies have been from regular folks like you and I, whom I believe are seeking the Lord. Many of whom I know speak truth and add light to my spirit when the Spirit confirms their words to me. Many of whom I admire greatly for their faith and obedience by sacrifice.

          But interestingly enough, there have been only two replies I’ve ever received, both from men, whom I’ve ever discerned that were truly charitable. Most have been kind or respectful, but only twice has the Lord told me, “This man is full of charity. He is approved of me.”

          I invite you to join those ranks, log.

          Nothing to do with me, but everything to do with the Lord being able to confirm to those who read your words that you are full of charity and thus accepted by Him.

          I long to join those ranks, as well. Because charity does not leave each to his or her own. 🙂

          She suffers long. I invite you to suffer long with me, log.

          She prays for her enemies. I invite you to pray for me, log.

          She seeketh not her own. I invite you to seek for me, for my welfelare… I who am not of your own mindset or opinion, log.

          She beareth all things. I invite you to bear with me, log. Not cast me aside, like a revolting cigarette butt, leaving me “to my own” ways and opinions. If they’re so bad that you would not partake of them, then I invite you to not abandon me to them, but show me truth through your charity by meekness, gentle persuasion and love unfeigned.

          Please, don’t leave me “to my own”. Show me charity. I need your charity, not abandonment.

          Please soften your heart toward me. I don’t want or need your approval or acceptance or support. But I do need your charity.

          I greatly look forward to the day when the Lord confirms to me about you, ” “This man is full of charity. He is approved of me.”

          And I look forward to the day when the Lord can confirm to you about me, “This woman is full of charity. She is approved of me.”

          God bless us all to that end!

          Angelina 🙂

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        • Angelina,

          Everyone gets what they want in the end.

          As I told Rock on his blog, if we are willing to settle for “truthy” speculation, then that’s what we get.

          But that’s not what I want.

          Charity is also letting people define their own goals and choose their own principles without opposition. So I won’t oppose your choices. They’re just not for me.

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        • Or, in other words, charity does leave each to his or her own.

          That’s the agency we’ve been given. “Thou mayest choose for thyself for it has been given unto thee.”

          If the examples of the Churches both past and present does not persuade one of the perils of concocting and perpetuating speculation, myth, tradition, and so forth, in furtherance of establishing what one considers to be true, then what words of mine would, or even could, change where experience has failed?

          I never told my children there was a Santa Claus. I’m glad I didn’t.

          My son asked me one day if there really is a God or if it’s another lie that adults tell children to control their behavior. Because I never made up answers to palliate him, he believes me.

          “Why does thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? … I know not, save it be the Lord commanded me.”

          Let them with ears to hear, hear.

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        • Amen.

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      • In fact, I think my next post shall deal with what I believe is a core issue.

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  3. Bagdad has already fallen over 10 years ago, to a foreign power that preceded its conquest with the murder of a half-a million of its innocent, young children by deliberate starvation and disease as fully confessed by a top governing official of that conquering power.

    As evil as ISIS is, they are at least, in part, a reaction to what was and is being done to them by foreigners who came into their lands uninvited and commenced to wreak havoc on the people and their country, for no good reason except to advance the power and wealth of the invaders.

    The only value in praying that Bagdad be spared from a new threat (same as the old threat, except they share same language and at least some of their culture, even if ISIS corrupts that culture to justify their own version of reigning with blood and horror) is if we can also acknowledge our own sins, and ask forgiveness and repent ourselves of what we have done and supported, to cleanse ourselves from the blood and sins of what our own nation has done in our name.

    Maybe that is the real message of why “we must pray that Bagdad does not fall”.

    (Perhaps, Bagdad is a metaphor for the rest of us, and it is our own selves we need to be praying for, to repent and be forgiven of our own sins.)

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  4. First, thank you all for the measured tones and restrained dialog on a difficult subject, actually two subjects – politics and religion. I sense no personal animosities among us even though we may have differing points of view. Second, think you for the various contributions. I learn from each of you. No person can know everything there is to know about a subject. I’m grateful for those who take the time to share knowledge.

    My friend Steve Sgu, who only seems to comment on my Facebook group these days, made an interesting observation. He pointed out it appears I have substituted one prophet for another. I suppose that is true. I readily confess I should be spiritual enough and in tune enough that I should not need a prophet to tell me what to do. Alas, I have not yet arrived at that point. This is always a part of my fasting.

    Mr. Snuffer had but to share a one-line post the other day, and yes, there have been many among the closed email groups and private forums who have been responding with all kinds of views and observations, some similar to the one above (MarkinPNW). So when Mr. Snuffer writes, “The God of Heaven tells me all the world should pray that Baghdad does not fall,” I take notice, ponder, pray and counsel with the Lord.

    IF Denver is speaking as a prophet, and I believe he is, my desire is to do as the Lord has asked. I pray that Baghdad does not fall, meaning that the city does not fall under the control of the Islamic State or ISIS. I’ve shared my reasons. The proclamation of a Caliphate is a big deal. It has not happened in my lifetime. That changes everything over there. What happens there will reach to my homeland as prophesied in Isaiah.

    Although a little dated, here’s another article with more in-depth information about the situation “over there:” My involvement is to pray for peace. And yes, as MarkinPNW pointed out above, to ask forgiveness for supporting war with my tax dollars. I work in the heart of spiritual Babylon – Hollywood. Babylon pays my bills. I hate knowing this. I wish it were otherwise. I am involved whether I like it or not. I must choose sides.

    http://the-end-time.blogspot.com/2014/06/how-much-ground-has-isis-won-in-syria.html

    Quoting from the article: “Though we can overlay the veneer of civilization upon the region, it is still an evil place. Though we can militarily quell rebellions there for a time, such efforts are just a sham. Babylon is host to the greatest evil the world ever has known or will ever know. In the times ahead it is prophesied to get worse.”

    And paraphrasing the last paragraph: “… remember that God is the author of all this current history, just as He has been of the history of when Nimrod began his religious wars in Babylon. These lands have been and will be in constant turmoil until the day Jesus returns and establishes… not a caliphate under Allah … but a perfectly just society where Jesus Himself rules and reigns. He is the true bringer of peace.”

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  5. And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. (Joshua 24:15)

    When a prophet extends a message, and declares it is from the Lord, that “all the world” should pray for something…whether or not I understand the motivation is a very small consideration. I will fast and pray that Baghdad does not fall.

    These people are our brothers and sisters. I also pray for those who are in harm’s way and that those instigating this great evil will repent.
    James Russell Uhl

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  6. I don’t understand the banter going back and forth in this and other online forums. I just saw it as an urgent request to join others in prayer for the protection of Baghdad. I feel it a privilege to be asked to join a group of concerned individuals to pray for a city and region that is in trouble. Simple! We probably should have been doing this, as a group, for this region of the world for sometime now.

    And why not expect our prayers to be answered? If God can hear and answer the prayers of men crying for their requests to be answered, such as Nephi and Enos, why cannot a couple of thousand people expect the same result?

    I see this effort as being involved with “Doing Good.” Is that not enough? Why has this request become complicated and challenged? Because it doesn’t follow some rule or standard? Because it was was suggested by someone that we all may not believe has “Authority”?

    Can we just not all simply join our prayers and be about “Doing Good” for sake of all those who are suffering or who could suffer?

    I know the Lord is in charge, and if it is His will that Baghdad go down and this event is within His time frame to bring about his purposes… so be it. In the meantime, can we just all join in prayer and fasting, with faith and love for all involved without all the technicalities?

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    • Amen.

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  7. Tim said:

    My friend Steve Sgu, who only seems to comment on my Facebook group these days, made an interesting observation. He pointed out it appears I have substituted one prophet for another. I suppose that is true. I readily confess I should be spiritual enough and in tune enough that I should not need a prophet to tell me what to do. Alas, I have not yet arrived at that point. This is always a part of my fasting.

    JR said:

    When a prophet extends a message, and declares it is from the Lord, that “all the world” should pray for something…whether or not I understand the motivation is a very small consideration. I will fast and pray that Baghdad does not fall.

    Is not JR’s response essentially Steve’s observation about Tim’s response?

    Is “The Restoration” truly about picking the One True Hierarchy To Submit To?

    Sigh.

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    • That’s the trick: Once we hear the words of Christ out of a person’t mouth we have a tendency to assume that everything out of that person’s mouth is the words of Christ. If we assume that everything out of a man’s mouth is from God, without testing it, then we are prone to getting eaten by a lion (1 Kings 13:24).

      The lesson here is that God may test you to see if you will listen to the Spirit or if you will listen to men, even men that are inspired and may have given you true messages in the past.

      56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

      57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

      The purpose of the Spirit isn’t to guide you to a man who you can then follow.

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  8. Was Snuffer speaking as a prophet when he asked us to pray that Bahgdad doesn’t fall to an enemy that has beheaded hostages, is reported to have beheaded and crucified proffessing Christians (some under eighteen) because they wouldn’t deny their faith, and is known to have burned at least one POW alive (and is reported to have burned something like perhaps 45 more)?

    And doesn’t Katherine make a lot of sense here: “Can we just not all simply join our prayers and be about “Doing Good” for sake of all those who are suffering or who could suffer?”

    Isn’t that in keeping with the Golden Rule?

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  9. As I break my fast this evening, I pray the God of Heaven will accept my prayers and fasting as an expression of faith. I’m only one in the world but I pray that Baghdad does not fall.

    In one of the final interviews with my bishop before, or perhaps it was at the same time as he imposed disciplinary sanctions, he said, “you need to offer a broken heart and a contrite spirit.”

    My immediate response was, “Yes, but to whom?” There is only one who is worthy to accept such an offering. Only one who deserves such devotion. We should follow no mortal man.

    Yet, we can receive the message of a prophet, which I do. Receiving a prophet’s message is different from following a prophet, which I don’t. I am grateful for the distinction.

    I suppose in the end, this is about choosing sides. We must choose what we believe and who we will accept as a prophet. The warriors of ISIS and other jihadists pledge the baya’a.

    My pledge of loyalty is to Christ. I thank God there is no hierarchy associated with the message delivered by His servant. I choose to receive that servant messenger as a prophet today.

    God bless us all to see the hand of God in these last days as he works though men such as Denver Snuffer. I hope I have made that clear by my baptism, which I have shared publically.

    How grateful I am for a God who honors agency, allows me to choose and provides His sustaining influence upon me in recognition of my expression of love for Him. God bless us all.

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    • Tim, there is only one that we must ultimately accept as a prophet, or else be cut off, and that is Christ. To “receive” a prophets words I am guessing you mean to receive them only if they are confirmed to you by the Holy Ghost, and never before then. If anyone has the notion that denver snuffer could not have, or will not teach a damnable and false doctrine (despite The Lord telling you he is or was a prophet) then you have already lead yourself astray.
      There is only one way to “receive” truth on any subject, and that is by the Holy Ghost, and since that is true, then the only role of a true prophet is to persuade others to pray and receive answers about subjects that they have already received answers about themselves, in other words, pointing people to the Source to obtain truth.

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  10. Is there not a hierarchy involved? Snuffer did not baptize you, if I recall correctly.

    What role does authority have in a society of equals?

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    • Indeed, that might be taken as the central question of my last post.

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    • That is actually something that I still don’t understand. Isn’t this the same question that was asked right after Snuffer’s last lecture? Is he starting “a new church” or not? He doesn’t want to be a strong man, but at the same time it seems that he has some kind of authority over many. He gave the new doctrine about seven women sustaining one man and he told that LDS ordinations after April 2014 are not valid. So he is giving doctrine to his followers. In society of equals could anyone do that? Also, the line between hierarchy and organisation is often very thin. If there is going to be a single central record keeper and a temple (who will be in charge of running it?), one could easily see that as some kind of hierarchy.

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      • Hi Niklas. I’ll bet this sounds familiar. I know it does to me. These all come from reading his books and website. 1) Remember, Denver has no spokesman. 2) No, he is not starting a new church. 3) The strongman model doesn’t work. Even Joseph Smith proved that. 4) Denver has no authority over me other than what I recognize and accept as statements he has made at the request of the Lord.

        You provided two good examples of new doctrine that I accept came from the Lord, yet in the next sentence you violate the rules of hierarchy in referring to “his followers.” Do you not see the logical inconsistency of this thinking? I / we do not follow Denver Snuffer. We follow Jesus Christ. The central recorder volunteered her services. Denver shared some thoughts on accomplishing it.

        If there is any hierarchy involved it is the one-to-one relationship between the Lord and individuals. In a Zion society, we do what is needed. Some have volunteered their talent in designing websites. Some have donated their time to managing centralized needs databases. Each community decides who is to manage the tithing funds, which are dispersed through common consent.

        The temple is non-existent. When the Lord announces it is time to build the temple, I expect that announcement to come through Denver, acting as the Lord’s spokesman or messenger. In this instance, that would make him a prophet. Could there not be other prophets with other assignments? I know some see this as chaos (Steve Sgu, for instance), but to me it makes sense.

        Does this help? Does it answer your question? Remember, it’s just my opinion.

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        • But there is an obvious hierarchy involved, Tim – you cite Snuffer as though yes, you follow him. Even this post of yours is an attempt to shore up something Snuffer wrote, as though it needed shoring up to make it acceptable to others so that they would obey Snuffer’s teaching. That’s the entire point of your post. Angelina made the same point. JR’s response was “follow the prophet.”

          The “strongman” model is simply leadership. What’s the point?

          Either we are all equals, in which case “Thus Saith Snuffer” is inappropriate, or we are not, and Snuffer is above all.

          As I have said elsewhere, everyone everywhere always cites authority for what they do or say in matters religious. Nobody wants to take responsibility for themselves – they always want to palm their actions and words and teachings off on the Lord, and they do so by saying “The Spirit Told Me To Do Such-And-Such.” Well, here we go again – what role does authority have in a society of equals?

          It seems to me that if we are making claims to authority, then we don’t have a society of equals. The Gentiles indeed seek to exercise authority over one another, and they who exercise dominion are called benefactors, but among the disciples of the Lord it should not be so.

          If we are equals, we don’t lord it over others, seeking to establish ourselves as having authority over others.

          While Snuffer may not wish to start a new church, it seems that one is coalescing around him.

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        • You preach hard doctrine…but true doctrine. Why do we (I) always look to someone else for answers? Why do we want someone to preach to us instead of waiting for messengers from our Father?

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        • Thanks for your answer. I’m still a bit confused. Log said what I’m thinking: “While Snuffer may not wish to start a new church, it seems that one is coalescing around him.” This is the feeling I get while observing what is happening because and around Snuffer.

          In the early days of restoration, the case of Hiram Page’s false revelations lead to the rule that only Joseph Smith (as the head of the church) may receive revelations that are for the whole church. How about now? Snuffer’s revelation on 7 supporting 1 is much more than just personal revelations for himself. How does the structure without a hierarchy look like? Can anyone receive revelations for all the people? What happens if only half of the people accept them?

          I am one of those who see this as chaos. Already now I see that among those who find value in Snuffer’s teachings (is there any better way to refer to Snuffer’s followers without using the loaded word follow?) are many who have many (in my opinion) crazy beliefs, that have nothing to do with Mormonism as I understand it, neither with Denver Snuffer’s teachings.

          Maybe this is so hard for me to understand, since I am still a believing member of the LDS church, where there is a definite hierarchy (and just as you don’t follow Snuffer, I do not follow president Monson – he is Lord’s spokeman, but I follow Christ).

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        • The temple is non-existent. When the Lord announces it is time to build the temple, I expect that announcement to come through Denver, acting as the Lord’s spokesman or messenger.

          What if there was an announcement, either to build a temple or to gather to a place, or whatever, that was not announced through any human messenger, but only through the Spirit?

          56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

          57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

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  11. No, Denver did not baptize me. JR did. Who was it who said, the gentiles seek authority over one another? Oh, that was the Savior, wasn’t it? (Matt 20:25-28)

    “Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”

    The Savior already answered the question for us and you have taught it well. The purpose of authority is to serve, to bless, to minister, not to preside over one another. JR was not acting under Denver’s direction. He was acting under the Lord’s. Shalom.

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    • Then let us stop acting like Gentiles, stop waving “spiritual credentials” in others faces to get them to accept our authoritah, stop concocting reasons and stories to support the authority of those we suppose have it and their teachings, and serve one another in spirit and in truth.

      No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood – including association with the Spirit – unless we are told to say so. Otherwise, we are Gentiles indeed, seeking authority over one another.

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      • My goodness Log… could you have not spoiled the day of prayer and fasting with this “I am right” banter. The issue for you seemed to come down to the person who suggested prayer rather than a request had been made. I’m sure there were many reasons why folks wanted to join this effort, whether they agreed with Tim’s reason for doing so or not. This constant correction becomes very tiresome.

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        • Kathryn,

          “I am right” about what, exactly? What do you think I am talking about?

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        • Surely you do not allow Log, or anyone, power over your peace of mind.

          If you say I am a blond, but I know myself to be brunette, have you “corrected” me? Or are you simply stating a difference of perspective that I can disregard?

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  12. I think that most of you forget that one of the biggest terror groups in the world is the USA. How many years now have they fought on foreign soil, killing people while fighting aggressive attacking wars. Offensive wars will only lead to more animosity towards America, but they never seem to learn the lesson.

    Also things are prophesied to get real bad in America as Satan takes the attack to the future of the 2 Jerusalem’s, and the fight wont focus to Jerusalem until it has been taken to the New Jerusalem first.

    With the future being natural disasters, chemical/biological warfare and enemy troops causing blood to run bridal deep, I think praying for America should be on the cards and not just Baghdad.

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    • Because I love my country (the USA) I tremble and fear for her, both from the prophecies in the Book of Mormon, and what I see her (or her government in the name of her people) doing.

      I anxiously pray for protection and peace, and the protection of her children, but I have to pray for the protection of all children, including the those of the Middle East on all sides of their conflicts, or I think God will not have respect for my prayers for my own country and our children.

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  13. Are you saying “follow the prophet” here?

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  14. Has Mr. Snuffer ever given a specific prophesy that is not open-ended?
    I ask because I haven’t read his material and every prophecy I have read from him is something that either is vague enough to never have to be fulfilled, or it is something that never has to happen and can still “yet be in the future.”
    The closest one I have heard of deals with homosexuals being married in LDS temples, which seems to have been popular for a long time before I heard that Mr. Snuffer said it.
    In the bible it says if a prophet prophesies and it does not come to pass you may know it isn’t a prophet. So I guess I am asking if there is a prophecy that can be tested that Denver Snuffer has given? People really give the LDS “prophets” a hard time for not prophesying, but it would be just as useless to have a “prophet” prophesying things that are never concrete enough to ever have specific parameters of fulfillment. I have to wonder if Mr. Snuffer keeps himself safe by intentionally being vague on a lot of things that he simply isn’t sure about.
    Saying all of that I really don’t care because I already have my own testimony concerning Denver but just for others’ consideration.

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  15. While I’d like to know whether JR was saying there are times when we should “follow the prophet,” I’m curious as to what has generated all this talk about a new Church, with it’s own hierachy, speculation, myth, and traditions coalacing around Denver here on this particular thread?

    Did I miss something, or was it because he asked us to pray that a city many times the size of ancient Nineveh (with tens of millions of people, millions of professing Christians, and many more non-suni muslims who would certainly be killed, many of whom are children) not fall to an enemy known for it’s brutality?

    Tim said “this is not a civil war, these are evil people, doing evil things.”

    Is that speculation?

    This is from The Huffington Post (hardly a neo-con or pro-Israeli source.)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/18/isis-christians-killed-_n_6703278.html

    And if you’ve ever been unwise enough to watch one of the beheading videos produced by Isis, you may have noticed something I’ve given some thought to.

    When the English beheaded people they used an ax.

    The French used the guillotine.

    But these people use knives, and a back and forth sawing motion.

    I see no reason to ask myself which side I should pray for here, and (if anything) I’m more inclined to believe Denver is a prophet because he asked us to pray for those in the path of this growing evil.

    Whatever we think of him and any church that might be coalacing around him, can we not all agree with Katheryn that praying for these poor people is an act of charity, and join her in doing “the right thing”?

    Unless God has told us otherwise, why would His attitude toward Bahgdad be any different than it was toward Nineveh?

    Has anyone here been told otherwise?

    Has anyone been told not to pray that Bahgdad doesn’t fall to ISIS, or that Denver wasn’t speaking as a prophet when he asked us to pray that God spare the city?

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    • Yes, beheading with a knife is barbaric and uncivilized. How much more modern and civilized it is to kill people with drones, cruise missiles, and disease and starvation through militarily enforced sanctions. Somehow, all the carnage caused by these “civilized” means just does not make it onto our mainstream news outlets, whether “conservative” or “liberal”.

      If we are going to pray for anyone, perhaps we need to pray for the victims of all of these barbarities, and not just the ones victimized by SIS

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  16. I’m getting confused. Christ is ultimately the only one I should follow.

    Should I have followed Lehi? Moses? Noah? Captain Moroni? Any other numerable prophets from our scriptures?

    Seems our obligation is to find the right ones. Because surely, it seems to me, there are legit ones people should listen to and follow as they are messengers from God.

    Denver Snuffer aside–no wish to debate following him–just others from scriptures

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    • There was Nephi’s wisdom: he didn’t follow Lehi (1 Nephi 2:16). He had, “great desires to know of the mysteries of God”, he “did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father.”

      Later on, when Lehi had his dream, Nephi still didn’t take Lehi’s word for it, even though Lehi already had a very good track record of being inspired. He asked for the same dream and he got it.

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  17. In case people are confused about what I’m talking about – for some reason, people don’t ask me but rather assume they know – why was it not sufficient to say something like this?

    “Denver Snuffer has written that God says all the world should pray that Baghdad not fall. I invite all my readers to join in this prayer.”

    Indeed, that’s all that needed to be said. Right?

    Instead, and I do not fault Tim’s intentions, what was written was a whole lot of geopolitics which, unless I’m greatly mistaken, Tim has no firsthand knowledge of, and Tim’s intent seems to have been to persuade others to take sides in what amounts to a civil war so as to make the request to pray for Baghdad to not fall seem not so much dependent upon Snuffer’s word and thus drive up participation in such a prayer – or so it seems to me. I feel pretty confident in thinking Tim is operating on reports and rumors of what’s occurring in Iraq, since I’ve seen Tim’s workplace and how he spends his time – typically not in Iraq. Now, that’s all well and good except there are multiple sides to anything, and in a world filled with propaganda, reports, rumors, and lies, nothing seems trustworthy.

    We don’t have to take sides according to the word spoken by Snuffer; merely pray that Baghdad not fall. We have to take sides, according to the word spoken by Tim, because ISIS is evil. In this, Tim seems be making what seems to him to be a straightforward judgement that seems to him should be manifestly obvious to the most casual of observer – except nothing in this world is straightforward. Were the Lamanites evil? Well, they were described as wicked, and this because they were taught by the traditions of their fathers to hate the Nephites. Did God love them less? I recall the words of the Nephites to Aaron and his brethren when they proposed to teach the word to the Lamanites – and I think everyone might profit from remembering them.

    So, did Tim (and Adrian Larsen) help, or hurt, the cause? Opinions may vary. But there is a principle I believe causes harm when not observed – don’t add to nor subtract from the word of the Lord. If your additions are found to be without merit, or of questionable merit, the persuading power of the word of the Lord is weakened thereby. I’ve seen this with respect to tithing, the word of wisdom, and other teachings besides. I’m sure you have, too.

    I think that we have an example here.

    8 And when they had ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken–nothing varying from the words which Jesus had spoken–behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.
    3 Nephi 19:8

    In any event, you may note that I never said “don’t pray,” I only asked questions. You may also note that I never said “I’m right.” There is no such thing as “right” in a world full of self-directing and self-defining autonomous beings. There are only goals and actions consistent or inconsistent with those goals. That’s the agency we are afforded.

    We each receive according to our desires.

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    • “Right,” that is, in matters of value.

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  18. Lemuel asks: You preach hard doctrine…but true doctrine. Why do we (I) always look to someone else for answers? Why do we want someone to preach to us instead of waiting for messengers from our Father?

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    • The answer is economics. It’s easier to get answers from people than it is to get answers from God.

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  19. Where’s the smiley face button? Log, you amaze me. I never would have thought to ask some of the questions you ask. Thanks for getting me thinking. No, I have not been to Iraq or Syria. I haven’t left the country in years. So I have no firsthand knowledge of things there. I rely on Twitter, Facebook, Google searches and the like.

    Even though I have a passport, I don’t think the State Department is encouraging American citizens to travel there right now. In fact, other nations are trying to keep their citizens from going there, but mostly because they all seem to want to join the Caliphate in preparation for jihad against all the world, and especially against Israel.

    http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/alertswarnings/iraq-travel-warning.html

    I understand your point about a different way of presenting the invitation to pray that Baghdad does not fall to the Islamic State. In the end, I believe it is inevitable, but you’re right, a simple recommendation or invitation to read Denver’s post from last Wednesday might have been enough. But then, we wouldn’t be having this dialog.

    However, I’m going to stand by my statement that what the men in the black masks and carrying the flag of the Islamic state are doing to those other men in the orange jumpsuits is evil. Is it really happening? Surely you’re not suggesting the world has been deceived? Those videos were doctored, but they were also legitimate or real.

    When do you allow information from sources other than your own eyes and ears to be acceptable? In other words, at what point do you accept the videos and news reports of what is happening in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt and other countries in the Middle East to be believable? Or is it not important because it’s not happening here in USA?

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    • Even if it were real, it wouldn’t matter; we don’t get involved unless asked to by God (D&C 98:33-38).

      But yes, the whole world can be deceived.

      Revelation 18:23
      23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

      Propaganda is an age-old art: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/48.1?lang=eng#primary

      As to when you decide to trust others, I suppose that entirely depends on how important you feel it is to not be deceived.

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    • A few more to put together.

      Mormon 8:20
      20 Behold what the scripture says—man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay.

      If we are yielding our hearts to God, we don’t get to say who the evil are. If we have charity, we don’t want to.

      Mormon 4:5
      5 But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed.

      Please note who is punishing the wicked and stirring up hearts unto bloodshed.

      What should our attitude be towards our enemies?

      Matthew 5:43-45
      43 ¶Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

      44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

      45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

      That is the attitude of one who has charity towards his enemies.

      So, unless God directs otherwise, we don’t judge, and we don’t intervene.

      Again, God’s ways are not men’s ways, and his rules are not the ones the world operates by.

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      • As a particularly extreme example…

        Alma 14:8-11
        8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.

        9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.

        10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

        11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

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  20. I seem to remember something about Joseph telling us we shouldn’t expect God to command us in all things.

    Do we need a direct command from God to come to the aid of those in need (or even just to pray for those in danger)?

    Was Abraham justified in what he did when a neighboring city was attacked, and his kin were taken captive?

    12 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew, the man of God, for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eschol, and brother of Aner; and these were confederate with Abram.

    13 And when Abram heard that Lot, his brother’s son, was taken captive, he armed his trained men, and they which were born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued unto Dan.

    14 And he divided himself against them, he and his men, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which was on the left hand of Damascus.

    15 And he brought back Lot, his brother’s son, and all his goods, and the women also, and the people.

    16 And the king of Sodom also went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which was the king’s dale.

    17 And Melchizedek, king of Salem, brought forth bread and wine; and he break bread and blest it; and he blest the wine, he being the priest of the most high God,

    18 And he gave to Abram, and he blessed him, and said, Blessed Abram, thou art a man of the most high God, possessor of heaven and of earth;

    19 And blessed is the name of the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thine hand.

    20 And Abram gave him tithes of all he had taken.

    21 And the king of Sodom said to Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.

    22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up my hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth.

    23 And have sworn that I will not take of thee from a thread even to a shoe-latchet, and that I will not take anything that is thine, (lest thou shouldst say, I have made Abram rich;)

    24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Ener, Eschol, and Mamre; let them take their portion. (Genesis 14:12-24, JST.)

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  21. If we don’t normally have a resposibility to pray for those in danger (and even to intervene when inocents would killed without our help), why does scripture say

    “If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?” (Prov. 24:11-12, JST.)

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    • “and even to intervene when inocents would killed without our help” should be “and even to intervene when innocents would be killed without our help.”

      I again apologize for the typos.

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  22. Charity is impartial.

    Fear / hatred is partial.

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    • Have you received any personal revelation that Denver Snuffer’s requesting his readers to pray for Baghdad, or Tim’s annalysis of the situation in Iraq, or my comments here were motivated out of fear or hatred?

      Or that God didn’t tell Mr. Snuffer to ask us you pray that Baghdad doesn’t fall to ISIS?

      Or that ISIS isn’t evil (and everything we’ve seen and heard about them is all propaganda)?

      And if not, aren’t you judging Denver, and Tim, and me (and the news reportes at Reuters, The Huffington Post, The Associated Press, CNN, and Fox News)?

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      • “and the news reportes at Reuters, The Huffington Post, The Associated Press, CNN, and Fox News” should be “and the news reporters at Reuters, The Huffington Post, The Associated Press, CNN, and Fox News.”

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  23. Now THIS is an interesting discussion. What exactly is the morality of the worldwide intervention the USA has taken since 1917 in nation after nation. WW1 to Make the World Safe for Democracy, WW2 to stop Fascism, and then every intervention since WW2, all UNDECLARED: Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. Nibley warned of endless “brushfire” wars all fomented by the military/industrial folks, and all built on the principle of power and GAIN (the Mahon principle). With Log, I follow the BOM teaching that the ONLY justified military action is strictly for DEFENSIVE purposes only. Tim, you need to realize the context of what is happening in Iraq: our offensive intervention is wholly unjustified, at least from a gospel standpoint. After 15 years of destruction and carnage, all provoked and agitated by the USA, we finally declared “victory” and withdrew. What does anyone think was going to happen there? The power vacuum is just too tempting: the country is now fragmented into groups competing for power. And which cowboys have white hats, and which black? But, make no mistake about this: this is all about OIL & resources (at least from the USA point of view): if the ISIS group gets too far along, you will see an American invasion (including ground troops), as there has never been since WW2. That’s the real danger, because the situation threatens to ignite WW3 (with the US taking center stage). So, I would say: go ahead and pray for these regions, but realize that just as the Lord can only bless individuals to the level of their willingness to comply to gospel principles, the same holds true for groups and nations as well. Frankly, I don’t know who the good guys and bad guys are in that region anymore. I think all actors, including the USA, are knee-deep in blood.

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  24. And lest you think that resouces are not behind all this intervention, ask yourself when the last time the USA intervened militarily in any part of the world, that was not resouce rich? Did we aid in Rwanda? Ethiopia? India? China? Nope–no Oil there.

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    • Actually, we did come to the aid of China.

      We had the petrolium resources at the time, we slapped on embargo on the Empire of Japan (after it invaded China), and Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

      That’s how we got involved in WWII

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    • And what resources did Bosnia have when we risked American lives to aid the Muslim population there?

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  25. And didn’t we offer Sadam’s Iraq peace if they’d comply with the multiple UN resolutions they were in violation of?
    e
    And wasn’t there good reason (based on those UN violations, and Iraq’s refusal to allow UN inspections) to believe Sadam was developing WMD’s (and isn’t that why congressional democrates all shared that belief, when they voted in favor of military action)?

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  26. Has anyone received any personal revelation that everything we see on our news is propaganda, God doesn’t regard ISIS as evil, He doesn’t want us to pray for Baghdad, and He hasn’t told Mr. Snuffer to ask us to pray for our brothers ans sisters there?

    Has anyone received a personal revelation that there’s some moral equivelance between ISIS and the United States of America (and the Christians living in Baghdad)?

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    • There is a lot of evidence that ISIS was organized, trained, and funded by US CIA and other Western coalition forces to throw Assad out of Syria, much the same way US CIA organized, trained, and funded Al Quada and the Talliban to throw the Russians out of Afganistan. Well, Assad is still in Syria, and ISIS has become the perfect propaganda tool to stir up the West for ever more war and spending on Defense Contracts.

      As far as personal revelation, my current study of the war chapters of the Books of Alma and Helaman have reinforced to me about the secret combinations continually stirring up people who originally do NOT want war to finally assent to war, the subsequent wars being the means of the secret combinations getting more power and wealth at the expense of the people, and that these stories are included to be a warning for OUR day, at THIS time.

      As far as moral equivalence, yes, the Lord ALLOWS the wicked to punish the wicked, like the destruction of both sides of the Jaredites, or the final destruction of all Nephites and many, if not most of the Lamanites at the end of the Book of Mormon.

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      • Funny, someone else suggested that bISIS was a secrete combination (and that really makes a lot more sense to me.)

        “I’m watching the news right now and they are talking about this ISIS group and all the menace they are causing in the world. Does this remind anybody else of the Gadianton robbers in the Book of Mormon?”

        http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64986-isis-and-gadianton-robbers/

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      • Sorry for the typo.

        That should be “someone else suggested that ISIS was a secrete combination.”

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    • “brothers ans sisters there” should be “brothers and sisters there.”

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  27. By Stephanie Nebehay

    GENEVA, Feb 4 (Reuters) – Islamic State militants are selling abducted Iraqi children at markets as sex slaves, and killing other youth, including by crucifixion or burying them alive, a United Nations watchdog said on Wednesday.

    Iraqi boys aged under 18 are increasingly being used by the militant group as suicide bombers, bomb makers, informants or human shields to protect facilities against U.S.-led air strikes, the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child said.

    “We are really deeply concerned at torture and murder of those children, especially those belonging to minorities, but not only from minorities,” committee expert Renate Winter told a news briefing. “The scope of the problem is huge.”

    Children from the Yazidi sect or Christian communities, but also Shi’ites and Sunnis, have been victims, she said.

    “We have had reports of children, especially children who are mentally challenged, who have been used as suicide bombers, most probably without them even understanding,” Winter told Reuters. “There was a video placed (online) that showed children at a very young age, approximately eight years of age and younger, to be trained already to become child soldiers.”

    Islamic State is a breakaway al Qaeda group that declared an Islamic caliphate across parts of Syria and Iraq last summer. It has killed thousands and forced hundreds of thousands from their homes, in what the United Nations has called a reign of terror.

    On Tuesday, the group, which is also known as ISIL, released a video showing a captured Jordanian pilot being burned alive.

    The U.N. body, which reviewed Iraq’s record for the first time since 1998, denounced “the systematic killing of children belonging to religious and ethnic minorities by the so-called ISIL, including several cases of mass executions of boys, as well as reports of beheadings, crucifixions of children and burying children alive.”

    A large number of children have been killed or badly wounded during air strikes or shelling by Iraqi security forces, while others had died of “dehydration, starvation and heat,” it said.

    ISIL has committed “systematic sexual violence,” including “the abduction and sexual enslavement of children,” it said.

    “Children of minorities have been captured in many places… sold in the market place with tags, price tags on them, they have been sold as slaves,” Winter said, giving no details.

    The 18 independent experts who worked on the report called on Iraqi authorities to take all necessary measures to “rescue children” under the control of Islamic State and to prosecute perpetrators of crimes.

    “There is a duty of a state to protect all its children. The point is just how are they going to do that in such a situation?”, Winter said. (Additional reporting by Marina Depetris; Editing by Crispian Balmer)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/04/isis-crucified-children_n_6613578.html

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