The Beginning Of Zion


isaiah-recording-revelationIn the beginning there were a handful of prophets, male and female, whom the Lord brought together. These prophets had come to the honest conclusion that they did not know a whole lot about things, but they knew the things that they knew by the power of the Spirit of God. Each of these individuals had deep desires to know of the mysteries of God. When they met they began to share what they had learned to each other. Often the other prophets would receive a confirmation of the truth of what another prophet shared by the Holy Ghost. Other times there was no confirmation, but the prophets would go pray to the Lord to learn if what another had shared upon a subject was true.

The prophets were always open to the fact that the other prophets could very well be wrong, and they only trusted something if the Lord confirmed it. At first answers came slowly, sometimes only after weeks of humble prayer, but after time the answers from the Lord came more and more quickly. These individuals did not look to any of the others for truth, but rather listened to the other’s revelations, and then took each thing to the Lord for their own confirmation. Often answers from the Lord were very surprising, and opposed everything that had been taught to the masses of people throughout the world. The wonderful thing though was that the Lord never told any of these prophets ANYTHING that conflicted with answers that He gave to the other prophets. They found the Holy Ghost spoke plainly, powerfully, and the same way in each revelation.

One day, a woman came to this group of prophets and said, I have been praying for some time to know if God lives, and finally I received an answer, this incredible power that I had never felt before as I was praying came and filled every part of my soul, and gave me a perfect knowledge that God does live, and God loves me. All of the prophets embraced this woman and welcomed her as a fellow prophet. This woman craved another revelation and desired to know if Jesus was the Christ. While she listened to the other prophets, she did not trust them, and they encouraged her not to, unless the Holy Ghost bore witness to her again in the same manner on any subject presented. For months this woman prayed and received nothing. Then finally the answer came by the Holy Ghost that Jesus was truly the Son of God, and He lived on the earth.

prophet-recording-revelationSoon, more and more prophets began to gather. The key ingredient to their gathering was the fact that they had learned to receive revelations for themselves, and did not put any trust in any other man’s words, either past or present. Only the Spirit of God was to be trusted. Each prophet was embraced as an equal, regardless of the amount of revelation that had been received, and all learned to be open to anything, because if they did not know the truth of any subject, and they knew they did not know it, then there could be no contention over what the truth of the subject was. They knew that it was pointless to debate, or set their hearts upon the answer being one way or another, if they had not received revelation on the subject themselves, and therefore there was no contention among these prophets. They learned the power of admitting to themselves that THEY DIDN’T KNOW, until they knew by the Holy Ghost, and they would NEVER teach something that they hadn’t received by revelation.

As these prophets gathered and grew in number, God delighted in giving them revelation, because He knew they would not go beyond what He told them. Sure they read and listened to all sorts of opinions and what others in the world had claimed to be truth, but nothing was ever received, not even one teaching, if it was not confirmed to the prophets as individuals by the Spirit of God. When the time was right, and they had proven they would never trust in men, the Lord began to pour out power upon these individuals, and miracles began to occur just as they occurred in the days of Jesus. No matter how much any of them knew, they were always one heart and mind upon the subjects that they did know, because the Holy Ghost would never lie or teach conflicting things. This is the beginning of Zion.

Can we see the beauty here? Is it right for the preachers of any religion to wait for people to feel the Spirit about one thing, and then tell them it means they need to accept a thousand other doctrines and teachings because of the one or two things they felt the Spirit about? Is it right to teach that people can get a testimony if an individual is a prophet, and if so, then they can simply accept everything that prophet has taught?

prophet-jeremiahJeremiah 23:

30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.

31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

What do these verses mean, (by the way I do know these verses are true) when they warn about people stealing words from neighbors, and using their tongues to say “He saith,” or just as bad, “he saith.”

How often do people quote other’s purported revelations and use other men’s words, and pronounce them as truth, when the Lord has not spoken it to the individual sharing? I submit that I used to do it all the time, and thought I was doing the work of the Lord. As an LDS missionary I did it daily, and it was a grievous sin. I thank God for mercy and for His kindness in showing me that I knew nothing, and could only trust what He tells me personally. I know there are others learning this. The initial stirrings of Zion are taking place today, and many wonderful things are coming to those who will abandon their idolatry of men, and truly seek the Living God, and His Word, on ANY subject before accepting it as truth.

46 Responses

  1. Tim, while I recognize much of this as being true, and a recently developed pattern in my own life, I thank you for reminding me of a standard of truth that is worthy of us all. One thing that may or may not be an exception…I accept revelations received by my wife as applicable to me – and vice versa. I feel like the Lord is speaking to both of us when He speaks to one of us. I actually consider this a huge blessing, a thing of amazing beauty. God bless you for sharing your thoughts and for encouraging us to move forward.

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  2. “…and they would NEVER teach something that they hadn’t received by revelation.”

    Does this men that you never offer an opinion, or teach anything that you haven’t received by revelation?

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  3. Hi Scoot28–just to clarify, this message was written by Nate, or Minority of One, not Tim.

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  4. Yes – Thank you, LIzzie. Sorry Nate. 🙂

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  5. Please understand, folks, that Nate’s saying you sin if you ever say anything is true that the Lord has not spoken directly to you.

    The solution is not to make truth claims and let every man decide for himself how he will approach what you say. It won’t preclude Nate’s making lengthy “general” comments decrying your “errors,” though, but hey, some folks cannot be satisfied.

    So I don’t try.

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  6. Good question,

    If I have taught anything that wasn’t by revelation it surely would be a sin 🙂 if you are interested to pray about anything I have taught to know whether it was something that I have taught in error then that is the only way you can know whether it was taught from God or not. If you receive any revelation that anything I have taught is wrong I would love to know it, and I will sincerely pray about it myself.

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    • “If I have taught anything that wasn’t by revelation it surely would be a sin”

      I’ll take that to mean you don’t teach anything unless you’ve been given some word from the Lord.

      I don’t know whether that’s true, and that might be many specific things you’ve taught that I might want to pray about (and may be praying about for a long time), but at least I understand what you’re saying here (and I believe you’re saying it plainly enough.)

      Thank you.

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    • I meant to say “there might be many specific things you’ve taught that I might want to pray about,” and (again) thank you.

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  7. I learned a lot by reading the entire chapter of Jeremiah 23 in context with MinorityofOne’s excellent post. A Zion community like he mentioned would be ideal, but I am not “there” yet. I wonder if it’s OK to maintain simple faith in people I trust until I hear otherwise from the Lord especially if I am not testifying about their “truth” in a misleading way. I am hoping that is true, but am I playing chicken with upcoming calamity?

    I admit to being lazy when it comes to wrestling with the Lord,
    Jonathan

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  8. No one should be blindly following any man or messages!
    Yes, truth can be found in many people and places.
    But the doctrines of salvation should come from nowhere but the scriptures, or in a true messenger, or from God Himself.
    Maybe I’m reading between the lines, but you seem worried about people listening too closely to Denver and even Joseph Smith? Any and all claiming to be revelators should be considered the same? A little truth in some, but not more truth in any one individual?
    Which hints at pride and or jealousy.
    At least until we are all a Zion people and are all at one with God.
    For now, many are claiming personal revelation regarding many topics, such as a Minority of One and myself.
    But it’s rare a true message, from a true messenger can be found on earth. There are times, when we are presented with a declarative statement claiming authority and the need to make a decision to accept and follow that “message” or not.
    The LDS blogs are pretty much fulfilling your verses in Jeremiah 23.
    Except for perhaps those by Log. 🙂

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    • What do these passages (all from the JST) mean?

      1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

      2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.

      3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

      4 And the Lord spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.

      5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forth.

      6 And he said, Hear now my words; If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

      7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

      8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold; wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

      9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them, and he departed.

      10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow; and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

      11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.

      12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother’s womb.

      13 And Moses cried unto the Lord, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.

      14 And the Lord said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.

      15 And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days; and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again.

      16 And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran. (Num. 12:1-16.)

      Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves; for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief; for that is unprofitable for you. (Heb. 13:17.)

      1 Now Korah (Core), the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliah, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men;

      2 And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown;

      3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them; wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord?

      4 And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face;

      5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even tomorrow the Lord will show who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him; even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

      6 This do; Take you censers, Korah, and all his company;

      7 And put fire therein, and put incense in them before the Lord tomorrow; and it shall be that the man whom the Lord doth choose, he shall be holy; ye take too much upon you, ye sons of Levi.

      8 And Moses said unto Korah, Hear, I pray you, ye sons of Levi;

      9 Seemeth it but a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to himself to do the service of the tabernacle of the Lord, and to stand before the congregation to minister unto them?

      10 And he hath brought thee near to him, and all thy brethren the sons of Levi with thee; and seek ye the high priesthood also?

      11 For which cause both thou and all thy company are gathered together against the Lord; and what is Aaron, that ye murmur against him?

      12 And Moses sent to call Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab; which said, We will not come up;

      13 Is it a small thing that thou hast brought us up out of a land that floweth with milk and honey, to kill us in the wilderness, except thou make thyself altogether a prince over us?

      14 Moreover, thou hast not brought us into a land that floweth with milk and honey, or given us inheritance of fields and vineyards; wilt thou put out the eyes of these men? we will not come up.

      15 And Moses was very wroth, and said unto the Lord, Respect not thou their offering; I have not taken one ass from them, neither have I hurt one of them.

      16 And Moses said unto Korah, Be thou and all thy company before the Lord, thou, and they, and Aaron, tomorrow;

      17 And take every man his censer, and put incense in them, and bring ye before the Lord every man his censer, two hundred and fifty censers; thou also, and Aaron, each of you his censer.

      18 And they took every man his censer, and put fire in them, and laid incense thereon, and stood in the door of the tabernacle of the congregation with Moses and Aaron.

      19 And Korah gathered all the congregation against them unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation; and the glory of the Lord appeared unto all the congregation.

      20 And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,

      21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.

      22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

      23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

      24 Speak unto the congregation, saying, Get you up from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.

      25 And Moses rose up and went unto Dathan and Abiram; and the elders of Israel followed him.

      26 And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.

      27 So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side; and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children.

      28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.

      29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the Lord hath not sent me.

      30 But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord.

      31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them;

      32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.

      33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them; and they perished from among the congregation.

      34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them; for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.

      35 And there came out a fire from the Lord, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

      36 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

      37 Speak unto Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest, that he take up the censers out of the burning, and scatter thou the fire yonder; for they are hallowed,

      38 The censers of these sinners against their own souls, let them make them broad plates for a covering of the altar; for they offered them before the Lord, therefore they are hallowed; and they shall be a sign unto the children of Israel.
      (Numbers 16:1-38.)

      8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

      9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

      10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not; but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

      11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and shall perish in the gainsaying of Core. (Jude 8-11.)

      1 Now concerning spiritual things, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

      2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

      3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed; and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

      4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

      5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

      6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

      7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

      8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

      9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

      10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues;

      11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

      12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ.

      13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

      14 For the body is not one member, but many.

      15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

      16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

      17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

      18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

      19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

      20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

      21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee; nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

      22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary;

      23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

      24 For our comely parts have no need; but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked;

      25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

      26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.

      27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

      28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

      29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

      30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

      31 I say unto you, Nay; for I have shown unto you a more excellent way, therefore covet earnestly the best gifts (! Cor. 12:1-31.)

      Do these passages of scripture suggest we’re not all equal?

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      • That is a lot of verses to ask the meaning of, but in each case where someone sinned, it was because they supposed they knew the truth without revelation from God. On the other hand, we see Paul at one time or another reproving Peter, and correcting him, because Paul knew from The Lord the truth of a matter that Peter was wrong about.
        What are the meaning of these verses from the gospel of Thomas?

        3 Jesus said, “If your leaders say to you, ‘Look, the (Father’s) imperial rule is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father’s) imperial rule is inside you and outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty.”

        52 His disciples said to him, “Twenty-four prophets have spoken in Israel, and they all spoke of you.” He said to them, “You have disregarded the living one who is in your presence, and have spoken of the dead.”

        70 Jesus said, “If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you [will] kill you.”

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        • “That is a lot of verses to ask the meaning of”

          How about just one passage then?

          I don’t remember the exact context, but believe Joseph Smith quoted this one himself once (and I believe the quote can be found on the JS papers project web site.)

          17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

          18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

          19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

          20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

          21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee; nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

          22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary;

          23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

          24 For our comely parts have no need; but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked;

          25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

          26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.

          27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

          28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

          29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

          30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

          31 I say unto you, Nay; for I have shown unto you a more excellent way, therefore covet earnestly the best gifts (1 Cor. 12:17–31.)

          What do you think that means?

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    • That last passage should be 1 Cor. 12:1-31.

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    • I am saying for you as an individual it does not matter how much truth is in another person. That person cannot take truth and force it into your being. The truth can only come by way of personal revelation to you.
      Do you believe it is a good thing to accept something as truth if you do not know it is true from The Lord? Is it a sin to teach something as truth that you have not received revelation on for yourself? If I receive revelation that Moses was a prophet, what good is it to me? Does that mean I understand one word he spoke or that others wrote about him and his teachings? To understand a prophets words or writings I need the Spirit of God to give me the meaning. Therefore to understand Moses and all that he taught, I would literally have to receive all the revelations he did.
      The Spirit of God is the only prophet to be trusted, and any prophet on earth that does not teach others to look to the Source for truth is a false prophet.

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      • “Do you believe it is a good thing to accept something as truth if you do not know it is true from The Lord? Is it a sin to teach something as truth that you have not received revelation on for yourself?”

        I’m not a teacher, I don’t claim to be, and I don’t know the answers to your questions here.

        But I don’t think believing is the same as knowing, or that acting on faith (without a sure and certain knowledge) is sin.

        Do you think these disciples sinned when they believed what they were told about Jesus?
        1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus; and finding certain disciples,

        2 He said unto them, have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

        3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

        4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

        5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

        6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

        7 And all the men were about twelve. (Acts 19:1-7, JST.)

        I don’t think so.

        And neither do I believe Apollos sinned when he began preaching the Gospel with only his imperfect knowledge.

        24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus.

        25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

        26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue; whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

        27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace;

        28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, showing by the Scriptures that Jesus was Christ. (Acts 19:24-28, JST.)

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        • Now we are talking! Ha ha ok let me share with you something that The Lord has told me, I assume most won’t think twice about it but hey, it is my testimony.
          I have been told that John the Baptist baptized people with the Spirit of Fire. Notice it said above that apollos was “fervent in the spirit.” Well what spirit!? I know as well as I am writing this that the spirit of fire and the Holy Ghost are two separate spirits.
          John the Baptist baptized people unto repentance and the spirit of fire, but Jesus would baptize with fire AND the Holy Ghost.
          Do you think that men would have flocked to John the Baptist, a wild man eating grasshoppers in the wilderness, if he did not teach with power? The Spirit of Fire is quite powerful, though not nearly as powerful as the Holy Ghost.
          That is why said “the Spirit of God” or the Spirit, when I say “the Spirit,” I mean any of the Spirits of God.

          Now to carry the discussion further. Remember the verse in james where he stated that “even the devils BELIEVE,” and they still tremble… Is belief truly a gift from the Spirit?

          Is it a gift from the Spirit to believe in Santa clause coming down the chimney? Seriously though, it brings happiness and even a “magical” feel to Christmas for kids, but is it a gift from the Spirit, or actually deception that makes people feel good.

          This is why bible bashing is quite pointless. First off, people throw around scriptures that they have never gained a testimony of. I mean did Paul really say that stuff? We would have to have the Spirit testify to us that he did to use the verses with any authority, then we would have to know the correct interpretation by revelation to really use them correctly, or at least one of the correct interpretations, since there are often more than one.

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        • “John the Baptist baptized people unto repentance and the spirit of fire, but Jesus would baptize with fire AND the Holy Ghost.
          Do you think that men would have flocked to John the Baptist, a wild man eating grasshoppers in the wilderness, if he did not teach with power? The Spirit of Fire is quite powerful…”

          It sounds like you’re saying John performed quite a sign there, but the people of Christ’s day don’t seem to have been aware of anything unusual happening at his baptisms.

          And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle; but all things that John spake of this man were true. And many believed on him there. (John 10:41-42, Joseph Smith translation.)

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      • Then why does the book of Mormon say “And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments.” (Mosiah 23:14.)

        It says “except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments.”

        Why?

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        • The Book of Mormon doesn’t really “say” anything though does it? We are assuming someone wrote that 2000 years ago roughly. That person was no greater person than you, and very susceptible to error. Then if that assumption is correct, we must then assume joseph smith translated it correctly. Apparently joseph smith knew he translated some things in error, because he actually changed some things (that changed not only words, but doctrine) after the initial translation. Then we must after all of that assume that the verse written was even correct in the first place, and inspired from God. If all that is true, then we would have to learn by revelation what the correct interpretation is before gaining understanding of it. Unfortunately I don’t know by the Spirit to know that any of the above is true, so your Yankee guess is as good as mine.
          I know enough by the Spirit to know to never put my trust in men, no matter what man, no matter what title, no matter if that man is dead or alive, no matter how many people say that man’s words are scripture or not.

          Saying that, if people reading this feel it is wise to place trust in men, or ANY of men’s words, then of course I suggest to do what is in your heart. After enough calamity and heartache, you will learn the hard way that unless you become the prophet of God that you seek outwardly, you will always be following a false prophet.
          If people put their trust in me or my words, without a confirmation from the Holy Ghost, regardless of whether my words are true or not, then they have set up a false prophet for themselves by looking outwardly for truth, and they are committing idolatry.

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  9. When I was a missionary we would always emphasise the Moroni 10:4 promise, but forget to teach and emphasise verse 5 as the ongoing guidance members need in our lives.

    As a GD teacher, I often tell my class at the end of the lesson, to not believe anything that we have talked about during class today without having the HG confirm the truth to them first.
    My lovely wife said to me just the other day, that maybe a little less emphasis on the “I know this is true”, to “I believe……. is true.”

    So Minority of one, how would you reconcile this scripture with your post?
    D&C 46: 14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

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    • My testimony is that is not a gift of the spirit to believe on other men’s words. The verse you are referring to is not from God. The Spirits function is to give knowledge, not belief, unless we are using the word belief in a way that it isn’t used normally today.
      How often have people’s belief in other men’s words caused massacres and great sins? This is one I would suggest praying about. It is one of the first verses in the doctrine and covenants that caused me to ponder on whether some of the contents of the doctrine and covenants might be false.

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  10. Are you saying you “believe” these things you are saying or thus saith the Lord?
    You write as if we all should hear your sayings?
    D&C has false doctrine, but hear my precepts instead?
    I’m confused on just what message it is you’re trying to relay?
    You say, we should all be prophets, I agree, we should follow only the Lord, I agree!
    I know you have issues with Joseph Smith and Denver, but at least they called their shot, they claimed authority in what they testified of and made the declaration they had spoken to God face to face and asked by Him to deliver a message. You seem to belittle and find fault in anyone of that sort.
    But then again claim we should listen to your teachings?
    And if you’re not claiming that we should listen to you, why are you preaching these sermons and declaring doctrine?
    Perhaps I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed.
    To me making authoritative statements about scripture and doctrine had better be done so with more than impression about something. Those things should only be done at the request of the Lord and on His errand.
    Otherwise it should be said, this is my view on this doctrine, or would that be a sin?

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    • I say you shouldn’t listen to anyone but the Holy Ghost, including me. If you will lay hold of the keys within you, you have as much authority as denver snuffer or joseph smith ever had.
      If the kingdom of God is within you, and the spirit of Christ is within, then every key that is held by Jesus Christ is within you if you will lay hold of it. I don’t tell anyone to listen to me.

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      • OK, I agree, with one exception. If we define authority as the strength and power of ones connection to heaven, then the one who has met God face to face would most likely be further along that path!

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        • That may be true, but I still would say it means nothing pertaining to us putting trust in them. There are many many people who have seen God face to face in visions, and who know very little. Theophanies are quite a common thing relatively, and they do not mean one has been exalted.
          A good question to ask God, and this truly is just my opinion from my own experience, is to ask whether joseph smith, or Denver Snuffer, or anyone alive in mortality today, has seen Jesus Christ IN THE FLESH, in other words, has reached the point of sanctification that their flesh could endure the glory and presence of Christ.
          The next question would be, “is it possible?” and if so what has been lacking?

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        • I wouldn’t put my trust in anyone but the Lord, so I agree.
          As to Denver, he answers that question in his writings. I don’t think Joseph ever did say.

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        • He may be further on his path, but him being further on his path doesn’t put you any further on yours. His path is meant for him and your path is meant for you. Now, if his words stir something in you, then it is your responsibility to go to The Lord to see if the “wisdom” of another could help move you forward on your path! Straight and NARROW is the way…too many on the same path cause the path to become broad and what is written about a broad path? Anyway, just my thoughts…

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  11. Two questions for everyone.

    Again 1. Why do missionaries from the LDS church not ask investigators to pray to know whether the Doctrine and Covenants is true, when the LDS church arguably operates under the instruction given in the doctrine and covenants more than any other book of scripture?

    2. Do you think the idea of the Quran containing errors would be as preposterous and sickening to a staunch Muslim as the idea of the doctrine and covenants containing error would be to a staunch “latter day saint?”

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    • I think any book handled by man and involves man trying to express their interpretation of Gods will, has errors. Including the D&C. My guess would be of all the LDS scripture the D&C would be the most susceptible to mans influence and the Book of Mormon the least.

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      • I would definitely agree to that, except I still am lacking a lot of understanding of the pearl of great price, but I love a lot of the teachings in those books (as well as the doctrine and covenants), but I think ultimately every book should be read just like most LDS people would think the gospel of Thomas should be read. Read, ponder, glean nuggets of truth when the Spirit teaches us from the words, but don’t get attached I any book of scripture more than any other. There are books I have been filled with the Spirit reading just as much as any LDS scriptures. The Tao Te Ching is scripture! Many near death experiences are as good as scripture. Truth is truth and if the spirit confirms truth in any book then that is scripture, because it is truth. Scripture can be found in fantasy books, just like it doesn’t matter if the parables Jesus told were actual events or not, they are still scripture, but many religions like to elevate “their” books and claim that no other books are as important or as much of God’s word because they are not canonized, or whatever. Doesn’t it really seem kind of silly?

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    • I remember Richard G Scot coming to my mission and telling all the Japanese missionaries to learn English so they can read the D&C. He said it is the only book of scripture that was not translated, but given to us from Christ in our own language.

      There are a lot of things that missionaries don’t ask their investigators to pray for. I don’t think they ask them to pray about the truth of the bible or PoGP either. They don’t ask then to pray for the truthfulness of the stake pres handbook of the priesthood manual, and the church is defiantly run according to those manuals.

      Your second question, yeah I see that you are trying to challenge the paradigm of some members, and there is nothing wrong with that. Thinking outside the square is healthy I feel. Just give more clarity around how you came to this conclusion so that peeps can understand your thought better. I would expect people to get a little fire in their belly when their beliefs are challenged. It shows they are passionate about their beliefs.

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      • I agree and I respect passion and zealousness and those who are willing to stand up for their beliefs.
        In all honesty I learned all of what I have shared the same way I learned that Jesus Christ atoned for me and the same way any of us can truly know anything. After I had learned some things by the Spirit I found this from David Whitmer. I have found he was closer to the truth in his assessment than any other history I have read. I know that our minds were warped against people like David whitmer and people have pounded in to Latter Day Saints heads that he, and others like him “fell,” but the truth is quite the opposite. If anyone will read david whitmers words the same way they read the Book of Mormon, prayerfully considering, the Holy Ghost will manifest the truth of them. There are a couple things that he was wrong about but it is all very close. See below

        http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/addressbom.htm

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        • I don’t think David Whitmer believed in a plurality of gods, did he?

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  12. Did denver actually say he saw Jesus in this physical realm? To some people, “in the flesh,” seems to just mean that they saw Him while in this mortal life, which I believe is the wrong interpretation.
    I heard there was some confusion between a lot of people (even those you believe Denver) whether Denver physically saw Jesus with his physical eyes. Was he absolutely clear in his account?

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  13. What about Mosiah 23:14?

    And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments.

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    • I don’t know brother I have had no witness as to that verse. Just logically speaking though the first thought that comes to mind is to look into the man sai baba. A lot of people swear he is a man of God and an enlightened being, that he walks in the ways of The Lord and keeps his commandments. Many would say the same of countless people who are actually leading people astray. So it is easily seen that judging someone by their OUTWARD fruits will not really tell us much. The fruits that we judge men and women by are the inward fruits that God gives us concerning them.
      It has been proven enough that we cannot look on the outward appearance to judge whether a man is of God or not. Either way Nephi’s words stand. Hearken not unto the precepts of men, unless those precepts are taught by the Holy Ghost.
      If alma himself appeared to me and told me something, and the Holy Ghost told me the opposite, then it would behoove me to tell Alma that he is wrong. Such is the knowledge that we must have through revelation on any subject.
      No david whitmer I don’t believe thought the plurality of Gods was true, he didn’t believe in a Heavenly Mother, and he was wrong about a couple of other things. That being said he was correct on how the church was lead astray.

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  14. Here is some truth spoken by a prophet, a prophet that I surely wouldn’t suggest putting trust in, and a prophet who taught all sorts of nonsense, but nevertheless he was a prophet from time to time. See what he said correctly about the Book of Mormon and joseph smith’s translation of it.

    Brigham Young said, “I do not believe that there is a single revelation, among the many God has given to the Church, that is perfect in its fulness. The revelations of God contain correct doctrine and principle, so far as they go; but it is impossible for the poor, weak, low, grovelling, sinful inhabitants of the earth to receive a revelation from the Almighty in all its perfections. He has to speak to us in a manner to meet the extent of our capacities” [4] and “I will even venture to say that if the Book of Mormon were now to be re-written, in many instances it would materially differ from the present translation” [5].

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    • Those are some interesting quotes.

      Thank you.

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  15. You’ve concocted a gospel of convenience: if you don’t like a revelation from Joseph Smith, such as Sec 132, simply throw it out. This is the same thing Denver Snuffer does with Sec 110; it doesn’t suit his premise, so out it goes. Don’t like the idea of prophets after Joseph Smith receiving revelation: for example, Christ appearing to Lorenzo Snow in the SL temple; no problem, just throw it out. Don’t like Joseph F Smith’s vision? No problem, use your power of discernment and throw it out. Don’t like some of the things past prophets or current prophets say–this is not a problem, because under your rule you can pick and choose your belief in anything and reject anything that doesn’t pass your test for discernment. This is exactly the game that Snuffer plays with history, picking and choosing his evidence to fit into his predetermined theories. Just you play this game spiritually within your own mind, and use the Holy Ghost as your defense, just in case anyone challenges you in your methods.

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    • That would be convenient wouldn’t it? It would be even more convenient to play a game of pick a prophet or church, and believe everything in that church or that the prophet says, and believe that will get you into heaven. That would be the most convenient route of them all. I did it for a long time. The easiest thing would have been to remain a mainstream member of the LDS church. That would be simple, or to just follow denver snuffer. That is the easiest route. Pick your prophet and believe everything they teach. Easy.
      I can see why logically you would think that though. It does certainly frustrate people when I don’t converse with people by the rules of those who love orthodoxy and all truth having to be contained within one dogma or set of standard works. I could just as easily say that you have chosen a gospel of convenience.

      What do you think Karl? Do you find it kind of hypocritical that so many people lately teach to not trust in men, and to only trust in God, yet they clearly teach to trust in joseph smith, or denver snuffer, or some other human being?

      Doesn’t it seem clear they are hiding their trust in men by saying, well he isn’t actually a man, because he is a true prophet! Or he isn’t a man, because God speaks through him! Or he isn’t a man, he is a true messenger! He is a seer! He is a revelator! He is Jesus reborn! He is this that and the other. The truth is that either we aren’t supposed to trust in men, or we are, and those who say they trust only in God and not in men, and truly are trusting in men, are the ones who get the most frustrated when it is pointed out.

      So I think a lot of these Denver snuffer bloggers need to look at what they are teaching clearly and speak what they truly believe. They need I say something like, “we believe that we aren’t supposed to trust in men, unless those men are true prophets,” or else they need to truly act according to what they are teaching and stop trusting in men, no matter how awesome they think those men are. The Holy Ghost has told me that many men are prophets. I haven’t personally met a prophet that hasn’t taught false doctrine at one time or another. I haven’t ever met a person that God has said, “trust that person in all that ever says or has taught.” Never ever gonna happen.

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  16. I don’t post very often anymore, but I have to say Amen to Nate’s (MinorityOfOne’s) last comment. My feelings and perspective are very much the same.

    It’s amazing to me how many people have exchanged President Monson & Brethren & Church for Denver Snuffer & communities (is anyone else bothered by the fact that he said he would never “start a church” but it just turned out to be a play on words?), while talking about not trusting in man/men, but they are just as much followers now as they were then, only now they are in denial about it. The only thing that has changed is the name of the “true prophet” or “true messenger.” Denver’s followers talk about the same patterns that the LDS do, only they reference the heterodox/unorthodox iterations of it. So instead of Benjamin or Mosiah or Nephi, they reference the pattern of Abinadi or Samuel the Lamanite. Before anyone gets upset, I hope and pray you all light, peace, truth, glory, love, joy, and every good thing.

    But I think I can be put in the same camp as Nate when it comes to who we are to be following. We should only be following the Son of the Living God. We should only be accepting truth from the Source of Truth. By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things, period. If an angel appears to you and their message is not accompanied by the power of the Holy Ghost, it is not of God, it is not of His Power. If Denver Snuffer or Joseph Smith have taught or teach anything which isn’t true, and it is not accompanied by the power of the Holy Ghost, discard it or put it on a different shelf.

    Based on what I’ve read online over the past couple of years, I’m beginning to see that we are not all talking about the same Holy Ghost. Because God is a Being of Truth and Light. He does not lie, ever. Have you wondered why so many people, even on this blog of Tim’s and other places, like LDSFF, both quote the Spirit as their confirming source of truth but have come to completely opposite conclusions? Is God the author of such confusion? For example, Denver Snuffer’s claim that the LDS Church leadership has lost some measure of priesthood authority, and that this event is connected to his own excommunication and the subsequent GC sustainings in April 2014, is either true or it isn’t. It’s not true for some people and false for others. These were declarative statements. It was further emphasized by the procedure he established for new AP ordinations to take place, in communities sustained by 7 women, etc. There are steadfast active LDS members who claim as ardently that the LDS leaders still hold all the keys of the priesthood and that their source is the Holy Ghost as there are DS followers (for lack of a better term to truly distinguish) who now claim the opposite, that the LDS Church is fallen, that DS “wrested” the keys, etc., and that their source of information is the Holy Ghost. I’ve seen some people go through the mental gymnastics of trying to explain how both camps could receive contradictory information from the Lord. And I’ve seen others accuse each other of obviously being in spiritual/revelatory error.

    Maybe we should have a conversation about how to actually recognize the Power of the Holy Ghost, by which we may know the truth of all things. Nate noticed this, and I agree, that many are attributing revelation to the Lord which simply cannot be so. Tim has a post on here somewhere in which he tries to describe the difference between other spirits, his own mind’s voice, and the voice of the Lord. I’ve read some of Denver’s stuff on that too. I’ll just say that their explanations did not clear things up for me – they were confusing, because in the end they just basically said, “I just know.” Well, I’ll throw my two cents in to kickstart this discussion or maybe Nate can write a new post to capture it under the right topic. When I was 11, the Lord did a great job of inspiring a kid who had never read a real book in his life (only comic books) to read the entire Book of Mormon. When I finished, I prayed like a child (because I was one, not a hint of puberty had hit me yet, no kidding) and the Lord answered by the power of the Holy Ghost and by the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. Wow! And I mean Wow! (not woe). It was like spiritual electricity and fire and glory and love and the power of of God! I’m surprised how many people, both in and out of the LDS Church (including my uncle who was Baptist, now Methodist) have had some variation and degree of this experience. Fast forward 20 years or so and I’ve discovered that the Lord is willing to answer me on almost any subject by this same power. It’s not just a voice in my mind, it’s a still, small, voice that pierces to the very center, causes one to quake, and feels like it ignites your heart and bones afire with His consuming love. So I don’t accept anything as true unless at least a portion of this power is present, whether I’m reading something or praying or hearing a voice or any other vision, visitation, or manifestation. And I can’t receive this power unless I am meek and penitent (because I am no longer a child, these qualities don’t some so naturally anymore – dang testosterone and whatever else). But I’ve found that the Lord is willing to answer almost any question.

    So don’t just follow the voice in your head or scriptures or what any person says, unless it is true. Some truths seem pretty self-evident and Jesus the Christ was pretty plain in teaching those. You can’t go wrong with loving God and loving every person around you, for example.

    Peace and love to you all.

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  17. Jesef

    Thanks for the insightful comment. I felt the Spirit reading your comment. When I say “I feel” that doesn’t mean it is an emotion or a normal physical experience.
    It is like particles of glory piercing and vibrating and flowing through particles of my spirit and body. I physically, mentally, spiritually experience it, and it brings a profound sense of just knowing. While the Spirit is upon you, you just know. It is not just a voice, or a clear idea, or a light bulb epiphany of putting things together, it is not a gut feeling, or the loving thought that maybe I should visit my neighbor or write a note. It is literally power that cannot be misunderstood or set aside. It leaves the light of God imprinted upon the spirit AND body in a way that is difficult to explain.
    Anyone who has experienced the baptism of fire in this life will recognize what I am talking about, but sadly so many voices are claiming to know what the Spirit is, and so many people explain it differently. I personally want the truth as much as anyone else on this planet, and I simply try to follow only the power described above, and now only believe something, anything, if it is accompanied by that power, because there are just too many claims and voices to trust anything else.
    Saying that I always hear people say, “well that is not the only way the Holy Ghost speaks.” I can tell you for me it truly is the only way, but everyone must follow what they believe is the voice of God. Just remember though that the Holy Ghost according to the scriptures many claim to follow gives KNOWLEDGE.
    In my understanding if a man or woman was placed before the throne of God, and they even had the thought that they might need to ask if the revelations they had received were true, then they have not been receiving revelations by the Holy Ghost. That is how powerful and unmistakable pure revelation is. I would love to hear others opinions and experiences though because like Jesef said, it is very apparent that everyone is not following the same Spirit, but I like to think that everyone is seeking truth and everyone loves The Lord so what is the deal?

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  18. Your post speaks to my feelings as well, Jesef.

    Everyone seems to know the truth based on the Holy Ghost revealing it to them. But their revelations of truth are all over the board and discomfiting with one another. That is so troublesome to me, and makes me even doubt myself and what I believe to be true. I have been wrong before….surprisingly (lol)…. so it could happen again.

    I do believe we are ALL TRYING to walk towards the tree of life. But I feel like I’m on a balance beam with quicksand on every side and it’s tugging away at my feet. I’m holding on as tightly as I am able to the Iron Rod. But one wrong step and the whole effort kind of just sinks.

    But honestly, the whole thing is so darn confusing that I’m nearly spent just worrying about what the truth really is. Sure, I think I know.

    But then all of you know your flavor of the truth, too. Right?

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  19. Minority of One, you posted while I was writing. So I guess it’s clear that if you haven’t had the baptism of fire with accompanying rights to revelation, then you can’t know for sure if your still small voice impressions are true.

    Then what the hell do you do before you manage to be blessed with that sacred event?

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  20. The baptism of fire or the baptism of the Holy Ghost is not given to one because of personal righteousness or because they deserve it.

    It comes first and for most because The Lord wants it to and it His timing. Sometimes it comes as a complete surprise to an individual who really isn’t seeking.

    I don’t know what you are supposed to do but I can say this. There is a huge problem with the LDS culture. A scripture was quoted in this very thread where an apostle asked a group of people if they had received the Holy Ghost. Those people weren’t offended. When Simon the magician saw the power of the Holy Ghost being given he would pay money to be able to give such power. There was a tangible, obvious power that was not normal. When someone experiences the Holy Ghost for the first time, even if they are 90 years old, they will know they are experiencing something they have not experienced before in mortality. It is that unique, that plain, and that powerful.
    Now members of the LDS persuasion have been manipulated (very much like the politically correct nonsense of society,) to think it is rude or taboo to talk about such things and suggest that most people haven’t experienced it. Even in the early days of the restoration it was common to ask someone “have you received the Holy Ghost yet?” It wasn’t something to be weird about, and people could simply say no, I haven’t, but I am hoping it will happen soon. Instead we have blind “leaders” denying the power of the Holy Ghost and saying stuff like “you have probably experienced the Holy Ghost many times! It is a still small voice, that usually you won’t know for sure if it is your thoughts or from The Lord.” Guys, that is absolute falsehood. Most people in any church have not ever experienced the Holy Ghost in this life time.
    Those who have, if they think they are better than anyone else, or they are chosen, or they earned it, then they are flat out wrong and they are “earning” condemnation because of pride.
    It does go to show the apostasy that we are in though, and how upside down things are because people feel like it is weird for someone to say the Holy Ghost told them something. What is wrong with us? If we were in Zion people would be sharing revelations, and prophesying, and saying phrases like “thus saith The Lord” all the time. I know people who say, “God told me today” quite often, and none of the people who are in the room are offended or think it’s weird, because God is talking to these people every single day, and the other people there know it, because they are receiving consistent revelations too!
    Remember that book that we all claim to have a little belief in that talks about those who “received many revelations daily!” Are we even living in the same world they were living in?
    How often do we hear these watered down, politically correct weaklings saying how we are a chosen generation, and we live in the fulness of times, and oh how the prophets longed to see our day. The prophets would be disgusted to see the people today, when no one can even feel comfortable saying they know by the power of the Holy Ghost. To testify with boldness, (when you truly know by the power of the Holy Ghost) is the most loving and Christ like thing to do.
    I have seen people angered by the truth who were brought to their knees shortly after because their anger of the truth drove them finally to bow down before their Maker and seek a sure witness for themselves, and they have received it. The Holy Ghost is powerful, it is real, and it can leave you without question if you receive an answer from the Holy Ghost. I urge all to seek Him if you have not received the power that I have described, and when The Lord blesses you with that experience, you can boldly, joyfully proclaim the power of the Living God and the reality of the atonement of Christ without having to tiptoe around whether it was revelation, or whether it’s appropriate to testify in a certain way.
    Do we have to tiptoe around describing an experience? Is society really that messed up? Oh but it’s fine to say that we have received a witness, or that the Holy Ghost told us about denver snuffer, or joseph smith being a prophet, that is to be expected! No one would ever get upset about someone sharing that the Holy Ghost told them the Book of Mormon was true! We love hearing stories that everyone can agree with right? Or stories that confirm our safe place of security where all is well?

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