Try the Spirits


TryTheSpirits1

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/TryTheSpirits.pdf

As Joseph pointed out elsewhere…

Every one of these [religionists] professes to be competent to try his neighbor’s spirit, but no one can try his own, and what is the reason? Because they have not a key to unlock, no rule wherewith to measure, and no criterion whereby they can test it. Could any one tell the length, breadth or height of a building without a rule? Test the quality of metals without a criterion, or point out the movements of the planetary systems, without a knowledge of astronomy? Certainly not.

That provides context in which to understand this.

I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives. The principle is as correct as the one that Jesus put forth in saying that he who seeketh a sign is an adulterous person; and that principle is eternal, undeviating, and firm as the pillars of heaven; for whenever you see a man seeking after a sign, you may set it down that he is an adulterous man.

There is dispute over the provenance of this saying, as we do not know where Willard Richards got it, since he was on a mission in Europe, I believe, when Joseph supposedly gave it, and there is no other known contemporary record, but the principle is sound. By this rule, or criterion, we may identify lightbringers; and we need not read “Church” too narrowly (ie, it could be taken as the LDS Church, or as “whosoever repenteth and cometh unto [Christ],” or even congregations generally; you as the reader get to decide how to take it).

And it applies to whom it applies.

As does this.

3 Nephi 11:28-30
And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

Also, and anyone may take this for whatever they think it’s worth, Joseph’s key is a specific application of the principle spoken by the Savior, which is not ambiguous.

3 Nephi 11:28-30
And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.

Therefore whosoever disputes, argues, contests, etc., is not serving the Lord, who has commanded his servants that they shall not dispute among themselves, neither shall there be disputations among them concerning the points of his doctrine.

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

Whoever has the spirit of contention – disputation, argument, contests, ME RIGHT & YOU WRONG etc. – is not of God but is of the devil. This is discerned by, well, disputation, arguments, contests, “you’re wrong, and I’m right,” etc. By their fruits are they known.

30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

Hence, this.

JST Luke 6:41-45
41 And why beholdest thou the mote which is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam which is in thine own eye?

42 Again, how canst thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam which is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote which is in thy brother’s eye.

43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit;

44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart, bringeth forth that which is good. And an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart, bringeth forth that which is evil; for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

And this.

3 Nephi 14:1-5
1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

If anyone has a sincere question as to whether any of the holy prophets, or the Holy Messiah, fall afoul of this principle, I invite you to do your own homework and establish that these men fulfilled each condition of this principle so that the conclusion, if the principle is true, must be that any one of these, or all of these, were apostate. If you can do so, then you will have established the principle is false.

It has been suggested that Joseph, or whoever authored the statement, is guilty of hypocrisy for condemning those who condemn others. Yet the principle only says “That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.” It surely is not hypocrisy to point out that there is a man who has excised himself from the faith community so as to be able to condemn the faith community – after all, the man who has done so has told you so by condemning it while proclaiming his righteousness as pertaining to whatever he is accusing the community of.

And I call these dissenters “lightbringers,” since they are but following the example of the Adversary.

George Laub Journal

April the 6th, 1843 124 By Joseph Smith our Prophet

Now concerning Spirits First of all, or in the beginning, the great Eloheam in the Hebrew meaning the god of all Gods called a grand council &[c] and the[y] counseled to form this planet on which we are now or do dwell at present. The[y] spoke and earth from cayos [chaos] sprang by their workmanship Cayos [Chaos] being there matered mater element The[y] saw till time should be no more and the[y] spoke concerning the redemption of this world and formed limited sircumstances concerning the redemption Jesus Christ being the greater light or of more intelligence for he loved rituousness and hated iniquity he being the Elder Brother Presented himself for to come and redeem this world as it was his right by inheritance he stated he could save all those who did not sin against the holy ghost & the[y] would obey the code of laws that was given But their sircumstances ware that all who would sin against the Holy ghost should have no forgiveness neither in this world nor in the world to come, for they had strove aganst light and knowledg after the[y] had tasted of the good things of the world to come the[y] should not have any pardon in the world to come because the[y] had a knowledg of the world to come and ware not willing to abide the law therefore the[y] can have no forgiveness there but must be most miserable of all and never can be renewed again referred to 6 chapter of Hebrews

But Satan or Lucifer being the next heir and had alloted to him great power and authority even prince of power of the eir He spake emediatey and boasted of himself saying send me I can save all [he] even those who sined against the holy ghost and he accused his brethren and was herld [hurled] from the council for striving to breake the law emediatly and there was a warfare with Satan and the gods and the[y] hurld Satan out of his place and all them that would not keep the law of the councill But he himself being one of the council would not keep his or their first estate for he was one of the Sons of perdition and concequently all the Sons of perdition become devils &[c].

That is the model or archetype of the apostates, the dissenters, the lightbringers.

Incidentally, I see none of the spirit of the lightbringer from some of the righteous who have been cast out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Some excommunications are unjust, and this has been acknowledged from the beginning of the Church.

lds-millennial-star

 

 

 

 

 

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/MStar/id/24255/rec/24

See The Latter-day Saints’ Millennial Star, volume 24, page 100 (link above)

Take who you will to be your teacher and your minister; if my counsel were sought, it would be this.

Mosiah 23:14
14 And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments.

And among those commandments is to not contend. By their fruits shall ye know them.

2 Nephi 26:32
32 And again, the Lord God hath commanded that men should not murder; that they should not lie; that they should not steal; that they should not take the name of the Lord their God in vain; that they should not envy; that they should not have malice; that they should not contend one with another; that they should not commit whoredoms; and that they should do none of these things; for whoso doeth them shall perish.

A man must have the discerning of spirits before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul-destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors; for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. – Joseph Smith

33 Responses

  1. I posted this just earlier on ldsff, just a different way of looking at what Jesus taught about judgment. God bless;

    I am sure everyone at some point has heard the back and forth about whether we ought to judge or not. Perhaps the most frequent verses quoted are the following.

    7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

    2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

    3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

    4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

    5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

    Often a reply to this is that Jesus did not teach to judge, but that he only taught to judge righteously….

    24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

    So is one of these teachings above the other? Many quibble over those things. Is it possible that Jesus Christ was teaching the same exact thing in both of these scriptures? Absolutely!

    In the first example let’s analyze some of what Jesus taught. Verse 5 says to “first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”

    Many people have talked about how a beam is so much bigger than a mote, and we need to repent in order to see clearly. The most important teaching here is often overlooked. Let’s look at another of Jesus’ teachings.

    22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

    23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

    Jesus gives us a key here. The light of the body is the eye. When it comes to judging righteously, we must remove the beam in front of the eye. What is the beam? Well the beam is anything that would block you from receiving an answer from the Spirit of God (light) on the matter. Jesus is teaching us to set aside all biases, all of our own opinions and logic, all of the teachings of men, and judge nothing until we receive light from the Spirit of God on the matter before we can judge.

    In the next verses I quoted we often do not hear the most important part either. “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”

    How often do people gather evidence, use the skills of deduction, rely on their own reasoning to judge others? How often do they use what faulty intelligence they have to judge something by it’s appearance. The ONLY righteous judgment does not come from anything external, but it comes from a witness of the Spirit on the matter. Jesus never taught not to judge at all, He taught us not to judge ANYTHING without first removing our pride and prejudice, and receiving a witness from the Spirit on the matter, and that is how the two different scriptures coincide perfectly.

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    • This is a weighty article and it’s worth reading again in depth with focus on refs. I will do so. Brother Log, what is the premise of your post, in a one or two sentence nutshell? Likewise, with this in mind, what are we to make of Abinadi? Contention?

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      • I said this to someone else.

        Such a character as the principle in the post describes tells you he is not of your faith, that he rejects the common ground of the community to whatever degree, that he stands on higher ground; from thence he dictates to you what your goals or values should be, and by what methods you should attain them. There are lightbringers in interesting places. There are members of the Church who are not of my faith.

        In other words, you don’t need to read their hearts, they’ll tell you what is in them. Just listen.

        As for Abinadi and all the holy prophets, I said this to someone else.

        Let us say I read Christ differently than you do; to me, Christ, John the Baptist, and all the holy prophets are consistent with this key [referring to the one attributed to Joseph]. But, then, there is a rule they all followed that the lightbringer does not.

        And…

        I have applied these keys very recently. I stood in judgement of a man whose claims, if true, meant he knew more than I did; a lot more. And I disagreed with him on a great many things. But I had to consider that if his claims were true, then it was me that was in error, and not him. All I had were these keys to go on; there was no question I could ask him that would act as a discriminator – a perfect test – because I of myself knew what the proper responses should and would be. And he passed my judgement (though, I hasten to add, not without the Lord helping me to continue the process of righteous judgement when I would, of myself, have just given up, washed my hands of the matter, and continued doing what I was doing before I heard of this person).

        And…

        The key that is most important is “he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil.” The problem with using this key is that until we know what it is to be free from conflict within ourselves, it is very hard – maybe impossible? – to imagine a world in which conflicts are not resolved by disputes.

        I know there was a time before I fell in love, and in that time I could not therefore imagine love. I thought all the love songs were lies, that the songwriters were taking that vague sentimental warmth I felt towards my parents and blowing it up through poetic exaggeration out of all recognition to make themselves out to be superior to me. Then I fell in love, and all of a sudden the songs made sense. So it is with these things.

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  2. Until we know what it is to be free from contention, when we read the words of one who is at peace with himself and God, because we know nothing else, we will read our internal conflict and penchant for contention into them. We judge very simply – we put ourselves into their words and read ourselves out of their words. Thus this is true.

    Romans 2:1
    1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

    If being free from contention, and finding peace within is a goal, I would encourage you – whoever you are – to lay aside every sin, every last thing that increases conflict within your own soul, and make peace with all of your enemies, everyone who has a claim against you, and appeal to God to forgive and grant his peace to you.

    Then… see what happens.

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    • Log…this has to be one of the best replies ever.

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  3. To clarify, I find two keys in the readings you’ve shared: someone who is contending cannot be of God, and someone who condemns while claiming he himself is righteous cannot be of God. Is that correct? I’m not entirely sure I know what you’re referring to when you say there is a rule that Abinadi and the prophets followed that the lightbringer does not.

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    • That’s close enough for most purposes, but I would prefer to leave them as found in the originals. There are more details and conditions made mention of.

      The rule I’m referring to is this: “All things whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, do ye even so unto them, for this is the law and the prophets.”

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  4. Brother,

    What some may have others do to them, is not the same as what others would have others do unto them, this can be the cause of conflict when viewing others and it can lead to false judgment.
    If we judge how others live the golden rule based on how we ourselves would seek to live it we find ourselves judging based on our own faulty paradigm.

    Example:

    My son loves chocolate. He would have others give him chocolate when they pick out candy so he loves to give people chocolate. My daughter abhors chocolate, and does not want it from others, and therefore does not like picking it out to give to others.
    If either were to look at each other from their own individual paradigm and how they live the golden rule they could say the other is not living the golden rule. Basing judgment from our own paradigm leads to errors literally every time and only the spirit can be used to judge correctly on anything.
    Jesus didn’t say, “do unto others what Jesus would have them do unto Him,” He said “do unto others as YOU would have them do unto YOU.” Huge huge difference, and therefore one mans’ golden rule could look very very different from another mans’ golden rule.

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  5. Do or do not the spirits: There is no try the spirits.

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    • Back off, man. I’m a scientist.

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      • I collect spores, molds, and fungus.

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        • That’s a nice, happy tree right there.

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        • Err, let’s try this.

          You haven’t been sleeping with the slime, have you?

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  6. Here are some relevant things I put on LDSFF. The discerning reader might notice a theme.

    “Sometimes the servants of God will speak the word of God without declaring that they are doing such, perhaps even quoting the Lord without citing their source. This is a test for the hearers – whether they judge justly, or by the hearing of their ears, or if they are respecters of men, or if they are sign-seekers.

    Sometimes God will speak mysteries to others, which is a test for them – will they begin to oppress their brethren by, without being asked to do so, seeking to impose their knowledge on others, even going so far as to cite their source as an appeal to authority to substitute for the power to persuade which they don’t have to get others to accept their claims to knowledge?

    Knowledge, like ordination, provides a fair test of character. How will you relate to others? Will you honor their agency, serving them and God by remaining silent until he bids you speak in his name? Or will you play the role of Prometheus, acting as an unauthorized bringer of fire and light to your benighted inferiors?”

    There is a principle that I don’t have the time right now to fully explicate by exhaustive demonstration from the scriptures.

    It is that when we find ourselves offended at the viewpoints of others, it is because we are ourselves in transgression and have invested our egos into propositions for which we have not got knowledge.

    After all, nobody gets offended at a child who says 2 + 2 = 5 (and this is the case even if we don’t know the theoretical reason why 2 + 2 = 5).

    But people start getting offended at those who say we didn’t land on the moon. Why? Because in that case, we, generally speaking, don’t have knowledge. We are operating on rumors and reports – we believe others, and aren’t firsthand witnesses. And our egos are invested in that proposition. So we tremble and get angry lest we should fall – or, in other words, get proved wrong and have the pain of having someone else stand triumphant over us.

    So intolerance / offense to other viewpoints is a sign of lacking a foundation of knowledge on the subject under consideration, and a mental / emotional / spiritual immaturity which cannot handle others as they are, as well as enmity towards those we esteem to be our enemies in this thing.

    Does anyone suppose God cannot tolerate it when others disagree with him? Does God simply dictate what you must believe? Or does God not reason it out with us if we ask him to?

    Shouldn’t we do likewise?

    Incidentally, I am still training myself to be more tolerant. There was an essay posted recently which diverged sharply from my own values and ideology.

    Noting an extreme difficulty in grokking it due to this vast difference in ideology, I forced myself to read it entirely thrice so that I could be reasonably assured I had properly understood the essential value proposition contained in it.

    And I was able to simply state it without coloring it or weakening it (in my own estimation). Even now, I cannot tell you how antithetical to my ideals the ideology contained in the essay is. But there it is. Many value that which I abhor, and many trample under their feet that which is most precious to me. And I have to accommodate them all, and be an enemy to none, that I may more perfectly emulate my Master, and win the mastery over myself.

    Where I start to shy away from something, that is precisely where I need to figure out why I am weak and fearful.

    Oh, I wasn’t kidding about intolerance. I suffer from it myself. I know I am not perfect because of this insufferable pride that infects me. This pride is the root of my intolerance.

    It is very hard to read something that trashes something I hold dear; the eyes start skipping words and I want my suffering to end, this offense to my ego, and so I skip to the end and lo and behold I have to go back and read it all over again because I have not done my job as a just judge to hear the parties out. And if it is a matter of values, lo and behold, everyone’s right. Alternatively, nobody’s wrong. But it is hard, so hard, to be tolerant, to allow the other to have their say unchallenged when I want to stomp on them and make them see my higher truth.

    Only that doesn’t work – all it does is make men my foes – and why should I even want to do that if it isn’t for the grasp the devil has on my heart? This pride which tells me that I should be the lightbringer, to bring others to the knowledge of my enlightenment, those poor unfortunate souls who are so ignorant of my superior knowledge.

    So, instead, I have to be silent. How else can I overcome my pride save by never venting it until the Lord sees fit by his grace to free me from it? How else shall peace prevail unless I lay down my swords?

    Thus will I gain the victory over the enemy in myself, that I am no more the enemy of my fellow man, and have peace with myself and my God. Then will I be able to be the healer I desire to be, the peacemaker, a son of God.

    I thought this was insightful.

    First, dogmatism. One way to define the difference between a regular belief and a sacred belief is that people who hold sacred beliefs think it is morally wrong for anyone to question those beliefs. If someone does question those beliefs, they’re not just being stupid or even depraved, they’re actively doing violence. They might as well be kicking a puppy. When people hold sacred beliefs, there is no disagreement without animosity. In this mindset, people who disagreed with my views weren’t just wrong, they were awful people. I watched what people said closely, scanning for objectionable content. Any infraction reflected badly on your character, and too many might put you on my blacklist. Calling them ‘sacred beliefs’ is a nice way to put it. What I mean to say is that they are dogmas.

    Thinking this way quickly divides the world into an ingroup and an outgroup — believers and heathens, the righteous and the wrong-teous. “I hate being around un-rad people,” a friend once texted me, infuriated with their liberal roommates. Members of the ingroup are held to the same stringent standards. Every minor heresy inches you further away from the group. People are reluctant to say that anything is too radical for fear of being been seen as too un-radical. Conversely, showing your devotion to the cause earns you respect. Groupthink becomes the modus operandi. When I was part of groups like this, everyone was on exactly the same page about a suspiciously large range of issues. Internal disagreement was rare. The insular community served as an incubator of extreme, irrational views.

    High on their own supply, activists in these organizing circles end up developing a crusader mentality: an extreme self-righteousness based on the conviction that they are doing the secular equivalent of God’s work. It isn’t about ego or elevating oneself. In fact, the activists I knew and I tended to denigrate ourselves more than anything. It wasn’t about us, it was about the desperately needed work we were doing, it was about the people we were trying to help. The danger of the crusader mentality is that it turns the world in a battle between good and evil. Actions that would otherwise seem extreme and crazy become natural and expected. I didn’t think twice about doing a lot of things I would never do today.

    Whether in or out of the Church, the same sifting process is being applied to the same principles; the same truths come forward in many different contexts. The above apparently comes from a homosexual activist. There is more wisdom and truth in the essay at the link.

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  7. I want to be blessed so I should:
    Be poor/contrite/lowly/humble in spirit and come unto Him and He will give me His Kingdom.
    Be mournful/sorrowful/penitent and He will not leave me alone without the Comforter.
    Be meek/gentle/compassionate and He will make me an heir.
    Be hungering and thirsting after His righteousness and He will fill me with the Holy Ghost.
    Be merciful and I will receive mercy.
    Be pure/unadulterated/single in heart and He will unveil Himself to me.
    Be a peacemaker, make peace with others always, and He will call me His son.

    Whatever I desire to receive, that is what I should give; whatever I want restored to me, that is what I should become, that is what I should radiate and send out.

    I want to be forgiven, so I should freely forgive. I want not to be judged and found at fault, so I should I avoid judging others and finding them at fault.

    I want not to be harmed, so I should do no harm. I want to be treated kindly and as a friend not a foe, so I should be kind and friendly.

    Freely I have received, freely I should give.

    I want to receive or be filled with grace, light, truth, love, kindness, faith, virtue, knowledge, patience, temperance, meekness, gentleness, spirit, power, glory, and every good thing, to overcome all weakness and cast out all darkness and evil. I should pray with all the energy of my heart and choose to be and give these things to others. Light cleaves to light, grace cleaves to grace, etc. Become what you choose to become.

    The list goes on and on. Peace and love to you all.

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    • Here I stand convicted. Here I am repenting, again. I love you, brothers. And thank you for the love letter from home. I’m homesick. I miss my family. Our family.

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  8. “It surely is not hypocrisy to point out that there is a man who has excised himself from the faith community so as to be able to condemn the faith community – after all, the man who has done so has told you so by condemning it while proclaiming his righteousness as pertaining to whatever he is accusing the community of.”

    I suppose I am one of those who have apostatized from the following of Denver and his group, but not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    I don’t ever mean to convey my own righteousness; I’m not. Some say they’ve obtained the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. Well, I haven’t even obtained that. I’ll expose all of my weaknesses in front of you. I am sinful.

    However, I do have a clear conscience in saying the things in my blog, despite my weakness in how I say it. I believe I am to share this with you. But I only do so in that you merely consider my words. I won’t even edit my blog so as to expose myself. I only desire the same amount of mercy to me as you show to others.

    http://lightmuser.blogspot.com/2015/04/my-path-away-from-denver-snuffer.html

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    • Hi Bryan

      My intent is not to challenge your words or your experience. I read your blog post and found your experience most interesting. In relationship to Sydney Ridgon, I found the following recent post from another author to be very insightful. Just wanted to share. http://onewhoissearching.com/

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      • Thanks for sharing this blog post Kathryn. I found it full of light and incredible.

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  9. Thanks for sharing and bearing your soul, Bryan. May the Lord bless and keep you in your journey. I do not doubt your path is right for you.

    The only thing I would gently remark is that not everyone’s journey or path along this vast Idumea of mortality is in the same boat, per se. God is great and vast and so is His work. His will and His work extend far beyond the LDS Church and far beyond Denver Snuffer and his followers. One need only look at all 7 Billion persons on this planet, in all their diverse cultures, languages, traditions, religions, and individual circumstances for the proof. He is God over all.

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    • Thanks, both. I won’t deny God is greater than any man. The only sure thing is to stay humble before Him, and continue with faith in Christ. I hope to continue sharing that harmony with you in Christ, despite our differences in opinions. That is what matters most.

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  10. What if one, or such a person, was to “earnestly contend for the faith”? What if one even made certain accusations, withholding however from “railing accusations”?

    What if such a person contended against a group with “murmurers, [and] complainers” against a weak, and condemned church, having certain “men’s persons in admiration because of advantage” against such a church? What about a group which perhaps “speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally”? What if the words of logic, and of the sound reasoning of their minds are the vehicle of their agenda; and yet teach so convincingly and persuasively (the words can surely do good for the people in need, though)? What if this particular group had “mockers” against this church who would “separate themselves” from it? What if this person was contending against such a spirit of deception because he himself almost became snared in it?

    What of the truth and words, logic and reasoning? Let it be that we hear God speak the truth to us and not the devil.

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    • I would point the would-be do-gooder to D&C 121:41-46. I would, purposefully and repeatedly, emphasize the phrase “pure knowledge.” I would do this for a purpose – because without pure knowledge, the would-be do-gooder is not contending for the faith, but for his opinions, or for his team. What would you do?

      Actually, I already know – because you are the man.

      What I’ve found is if I feel the need to justify myself, it’s because my motives are impure.

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  11. The evidence is available for everyone to see. If I’ve overstepped my bounds, or have exercised unrighteous dominion, then I apologize for that.

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    • It seems one has to share your assumptions before what evidence exists says what you think it says. Hence the requirement for pure knowledge. I don’t find your reasoning persuasive, personally. Others might. It seems you have nothing to contribute to the topic of the post, however. I am sure there are other areas, other forums, you may inundate with your concerns if you should so desire. I’d rather you not do it here, and I ask that you don’t.

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  12. I don’t mean to irritate the moderator, but a wise man once said (not that I agree or disagree):

    “’And ye say ‘- No Trolling, flaming, spamming, baiting.’ Thus there is no possibility a functional call to repentance can be made to these froward, lying children. ‘You’re making me mad!’ ‘You’re not nice!’ ‘You’re not kind!’ ‘You don’t fit in!’ ‘You make me uncomfortable!’ ‘You’re on the wrong team!’

    Ye are they of whom the prophet spake.”

    I posted in a forum also, but this is where you replied. It seems this blogpost was directed at people like me which excised themselves from Denver’s groups. Maybe it’s good for an opposing viewpoint. Aren’t you the guy against closed communications, ideas and forums? I don’t think I’ve broken any rules here. If I may also at least reply. If you are referring to my accusations against “LDS Remnant”, then those are first-hand experiences. I guess the evidence is gone because it was deleted by the group. If I am being accused of being more righteous than them, then let it be made known that I surely don’t think I am. That was not an accusation of pure knowledge against me. In fact, they are probably more righteous than me. It wasn’t necessarily the reasoning or persuasion that did it for me either. It was the spark of a mere consideration. Logic can only go so far. The rest was up to me to search.

    These are the words I’m trying to contend for (Words of Joseph Smith):

    “dont make any hasty moves you may be saved, if a spirit of Bitterness is in you, dont be in haste, say you that man is a sinner, well if he repents he shall be forgiven.”

    “from that time they begin to be enemies like many of the apostates of the Church of J. C. of L.D.S. – when a man begins to be an enemy he hunts him – for he has the same Sp. that they had who crucd. the Lord of life – the same Sp. that Sin agt. the H. G. I advise all to be careful what you do – stay – do not give way – you may find that some one has laid a snare for you be cautious – await”

    “Hence like many of the apostates of the C of J.C. L.D.S. They go to far the spirit leaves them hence they seek to kill me they thirst for my blood – they neve[r] cease – he has got the same spirit that crucified Jesus. You cant renew them to repentence – awful is the consequence. Advise all to be careful what they do – you may by and by find out that you have been decieved.”

    This is the message I contend for. I just found these today, and also contend for the same things I put in my blog. I had that bitterness in me when I sought re-baptism. I still sense that same spirit in Denver’s groups, because I had the same one. I also say to just wait. Stay in the Church for now. Wait it out until this mist of confusion is abated by the one mighty and strong, if not for any other reason. I say that once you decide to come back, you will feel His love for you and an outpouring of the Spirit. At least that’s what happened to me. I feel that I was snared by truth and then was trapped in the following. All of you very good people that have been led by Denver’s snare, I would say to stay and wait, or come back.

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    • Bryan,

      I didn’t say you broke any rules. I simply asked you to take your anti-Remnant, anti-Snuffer stuff elsewhere. You’re off-topic, and from what you are writing, it seems you have nothing to contribute to the actual topic. So I’ve asked you to move on.

      That you were bitter or that others may be bitter is of no interest to me. That you still see it as a matter of teams actually IS of interest, but hardly unexpected.

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  13. They are your words, not mine. Your rules or ideals allow me to speak.

    It’s not teams. It’s a choice to be made. Follow Denver which, in my experience, led to a spirit of apostasy; or stay with the Church as Joseph suggested.

    Seems on topic to me.

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    • Ok, I see that my request won’t be granted. So let’s talk.

      You say that following Denver produced in you a spirit of apostasy. But I’m not sure what that has to do with Denver, anymore than Judas’s spirit was the product of following Christ.

      Also, you have made it a matter of teams. Team Denver vs. Team Church. Hierarchy A vs. Hierarchy B.

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  14. Here is what I’m saying:

    “But in these times in the last days there will many fals prophets arise
    and false teachers and decieve many the[y] Shall have many
    followers by their deceit. 49 the[y] Strive to have power and by their
    pernitious ways lead of[f] many”

    I guess if I had to look at it that way. Yes, either Christ told Denver to command re-baptism or not:

    “when a man goes about prophesying
    and commands men to obey his teachings, he must be either a true
    or false prophet; false prophets always arise to oppose the true
    prophets, and they will prophesy so very near the truth that they
    will deceive almost the very chosen ones”

    My compass tells me he is a false prophet; but that’s me.

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    • If, in the end, this is about your compass, there is no discussion possible; follow your compass and be happy in the destination it leads you to. We learn by experience to discern good from evil.

      If a man is harmed, or harms others, in being baptized again, I am not aware of how, and I never do get a straight answer to this question: how does it break the Golden Rule to be baptized again?

      Seems like it really isn’t anyone else’s business. But that’s me.

      14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

      15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.

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      • Fair enough. If nothing I say is of value, I am content with that.

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        • Let us say there is a time and a place for everything. If you want to take a shot at answering my question, you’d be the first to do so.

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