Speaking With The Lord About Joseph


The Prophet Joseph SmithNearly forty years ago I spent six months preparing to serve a mission for the LDS Church. I had graduated from High School, attended Ricks College for a year, worked for six months and was now engaged in extensive preparations to understand the doctrines of Mormonism I would soon be teaching. I was blessed with the time and financial ability to do nothing but study the gospel.

What I wouldn’t give to have that blessing in my life again. My years since have been consumed ensuring the computing needs of my employer are met on a daily basis. On days I make the time and effort to study the gospel I think back on that long-ago year when I did nothing but ponder, read, study, fast and pray about what the Lord is going to do before He returns in the last days.

d-and-c-commentaryIn the spirit of Oliver Cowdery, those were days never to be forgotten. My tutor was the Holy Ghost. My texts were scriptures and commentaries I had obtained from a local book store that carried LDS books. I especially enjoyed studying the Doctrine and Covenants Commentary from Hyrum M Smith and Janne M Sjodahl, the 1972 reprint edition. It’s a lengthy book at 864 pages.

A Promise From the Lord

I lived with two of my unmarried siblings who worked or attended college, my parents having sold their home and sent us out in the world to fend for ourselves. The summer before I attended Ricks College was a spiritual awaking for me, filled with sacred moments in prayerful revelation to my mind’s eye. Asking in faith, the Lord opened my mind to visions of personal future events.

RicksDevotionalIt was at Ricks, after many hours of heart-wrenching prayer, I obtained a promise from the Lord which remains with me to this day. He has not left me, even in my darkest hours. He can and will walk with us through our life’s journey. He will speak to our minds. We can hear His voice. As part of that meeting, detecting the voice of the adversary and his emissaries also became clearer.

I have shared this story before, but have visited it again with a different understanding. Having resigned my membership in the LDS Church, I wanted to know if anything had changed about the revelations I received in my youth. Were they still valid? Had I been deceived? I asked the Lord recently. He answered, assuring me it was He that spoke to my mind that long-ago night.

Always Knew the Book was Scripture

The Book of MormonAfter a few difficult retirement years in Utah my mother moved back to California and stopped attending the LDS Church. I have shared her story previously, including her disappointments with what she found in the Utah LDS culture. Upon returning, she gave me many of her church books along with her journals and papers, asking only that I not share them before her death.

In the ten years since her passing I have reviewed most of her papers. Recently, I have felt the desire to make one of her papers available online. It is entitled “How I gained a testimony of the Book of Mormon.” Mother was a teacher and scholar, well-read, endowed with a keen intellect and a profound ability to teach. She loved preparing lessons, passing her love of learning to me.

If you can, take a moment to review mother’s story. She and I were very close in the years just before and after my mission. She wrote this paper while taking Institute classes. We had many deep discussions about the gospel and church history. She knew so much about Joseph Smith. I was amazed to discover her difficulties with the Book of Mormon and why it troubled her so.

Didn’t Always Know About Joseph

I prefaced what I am about to share with reference to my mother because it was she who gave me the intellectual curiosity to ask the Lord about things which she herself did not know. Her habit was to refer me to a book, then encourage me to take my questions to the Lord. I have her papers on Joseph, the Savior, temple ordinances, celestial marriage and more on the Book of Mormon.

ProphetJosephSmithI learned to read at my mother’s knee. We read the Book of Mormon together when I was young. I experienced first-hand her lining out all the instances of “and it came to pass,” as she shared in her paper. She had a hard time with the Book of Mormon. I loved it from the first time I read it with her. I knew it was the word of God. Always have. But I didn’t always know about Joseph.

That’s what I really want to share in this post. From my notes in front of the D&C Commentary, I’ve recorded the dates I consumed the book. Fifteen pages a day is not much. I also noted a few choice observations the Lord shared with me as I read, one of them being, “No amount of study can take the place of obedience,” and “When ignorance is removed, obedience is expected.”

Some Things Not Lawful to Share

When I finished the book, I felt inspired to take it to the Lord in prayer. I wanted to know if the revelations recorded from Joseph were from the Lord. It was an interesting experience. I did not expect it to take three days. I expected it would take a few hours at most, similar to what I had experienced at Ricks College. I think this was the only time in my life I fasted for three days.

JosephSmithInLibertyJailI would study during the day and pray for hours at night. I took literally the admonition to enter into my closet and pray in secret. Sometimes, after a few hours of study during the day, I would continue my quest in prayer. I wanted an answer. I needed to know. I burned with the desire to receive a response. I had talked to the Lord previously. I had heard his voice at Rick’s College.

As I recorded in my journal and in a previous post, I was surprised at the answer. I want to be very clear about this. We can hear the voice of the Lord. He told me the commentary was written with the intent to encourage faith. But He was more emphatic when He said to me, “Joseph did not tell everything he knew and neither can you. Some things can only be experienced in prayer.”

Joseph Was No Fallen Prophet

At the time I was satisfied with the answer. I should not have been. I should have pressed for more. But it was apparently sufficient for that season of my life. Now I want more. In fact, I have wanted more for many years and have been pressing the Lord to share. Each time He tells me the day will come but is not yet. He and I both know I have not yet met the requirements. So I wait.

JesusRedRobeI want to keep this post short. There are only two things I wanted to share. I hope I have been clear. The first is that we can speak with the Lord, we can hear His voice. We can enter into His presence. He is willing to reveal Himself unto us. The second is that the Lord does call men to speak for him as prophets today. Joseph was the Lord’s prophet and still holds keys given him.

The restoration of the Lord’s work with men on the earth commenced with Joseph Smith. He performed his mission admirably, as did Hyrum. I have been studying the Book of Mormon for over fifty years and have never felt any doubts of the authenticity of Joseph’s claims. The Lord will bless those who speak up for Joseph. I do so with this post. Joseph was no fallen prophet.

123 Responses

  1. Thanks for this post Tim and Amen to it!

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  2. Brother Tim,

    Thank you for this post.
    Thank you for your testimony that Joseph Smith is not a fallen prophet.
    Thank you for bringing up topics which make me dig into the scriptures more deeply, and which cause me to kneel before my Heavenly Father to get a confirmation that what I’ve read is true.
    Thank you for the time you invest in your blog.
    I truly appreciate your efforts.

    Very sincerely yours,
    Linda

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  3. I will refuse to credit an accusation against someone without affirmative evidence which, in this particular case, lacking any kind of pretense of contemporary first-hand witnesses, would be children and nothing less, because I know far too many liars, and I know there were far too many liars during Brigham’s reign. It is indeed possible that all the so-called reminiscences are false, to me. No contemporary records, no kids, no case.

    And I will particularly reject revelatory evidence on the subject from others who claim to have inquired of the Lord on this subject and been answered by the Holy Ghost, no matter how numerous they may be. Why? Because to even make the inquiry breaks the law of God as I understand it: I do not inquire into others’ sins because I do not desire that others should inquire into mine; I wish instead for my sins to be forgotten, for they establish nothing more than I am, or have been, a fallen man, just as every other fallen man, in need of the redemption of Christ. Therefore the Golden Rule precludes my inquiry. So what spirit would answer such an inquiry? (Honestly, I’m almost tempted to make the inquiry just to find out which spirit answers.)

    And if someone does claim this power – the Lord as their personal talebearer – then it might be a fair challenge to ask them to tell me what my sins are, here, now, on this thread, prefacing it with “Thus saith the Lord.”

    But I wouldn’t want to be put on the spot like that, so I won’t issue the challenge.

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    • I am in accord with Log on this. The fact that Tim, or Minority or anyone claims to hear and relay the voice of the Lord does not in any way establish the truth of anything—except for the individual making the inquiry. I have received revelation through the Holy Ghost and many of the impressions I have received are in direct contradiction to the results some have trumpeted on this and other blogs. What does this mean? Not all “revelation” is coming from a righteous source; probably most being broadcast on blogs is false. At least you would have to agree that if two propositions are directly opposed, they can’t both be true (they might in fact both be false). For example, Minority on this blog has insisted that he “knows” by revelation that Sec 132 is false. I could state honestly that I have had the exact opposition revelation, that Sec 132 is true. But, what would be the point in contending over this? Both sides believe they are correct, and have received knowledge by revelation. Both sides of this (or any issue) cannot be correct. At least one point of view must be wrong. As Log states, the Golden Rule precludes a real disciple from demanding from another, a level of proof that they are themselves are unwilling to provide. This big game many bloggers are playing where “I am right” because God told me by revelation, therefore you are wrong needs to stop (assuming one really wants to become a disciple of Christ).

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    • I have been told by the Holy Ghost, separately (on different occasions for each), that it is not my concern whether or not that Denver Snuffer character is a true apostate, or victimized as he claims, and also that it is not my business whether or not Joseph Smith was or is a fallen prophet.

      Also, there is a saying from my late father-in-law; “Other men’s sins will never save you”.

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      • Oh, I do have personal opinions on the two people mentioned in my previous post, but the only thing I have actually received by revelation from the Holy Ghost is what I have posted above. Everything beyond what was directly revealed to me is only speculation of a flawed mortal with imperfect knowledge.

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        • Thank you for your willingness to share brother I appreciate your testimony.

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  4. To Log and the rest of the world,

    In the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses shall ever word be established (D and C 6:28).

    You now have the testimony of 3: Tim Malone, Denver Snuffer, and me (John Scott Peterson).

    Joseph Smith was not a fallen prophet. He is the Lord’s anointed.

    In the sacred name of Christ, Amen.

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    • With all due respect, none of you are firsthand witnesses, from my perspective.

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      • I am a firsthand witness and so testify. The spirit which villifies Joseph Smith is that of demons and devils, without equivocation. Ephesians 5:11

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        • Lynne,

          Thank you for your willingness to testify. Do you mind sharing exactly what The Lord told you upon these very subjects word for word? We all know the seriousness of bearing false witness, and so I assume you will not make up a revelation or put words into God’s mouth.

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        • The Lord rebuke thee, Nate. It is an adulterous spirit that baits in carefully crouched words and seeks for a sign.

          If you require the details of my witness and testimony you will be damned.

          Go to God yourself and ask Him to show you that which I, and others, have seen, and heard, and can testify to.

          It is now imperative that each of us humble ourselves, cry mightily to God, and odtain our own firsthand, first person and in person knowledge direct from the source.

          Sophistry and stratagem will not save you.

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        • I, speaking for myself only (obviously), seek to discuss and reason together, but not to contend or become angry.

          I don’t consider anyone a firsthand witness who was not present at the events in question or a proper equivalent, such as the Lord showing such a person in 4D vision. I’ll use an example. Obviously, none of us alive right now can be a firsthand witness of Christ suffering in Gethsemane or on the Cross, which is now 2000 years past. But the Lord could make one a firsthand witness by showing them the events using His power. That’s not to say that, barring such a revelatory experience, we have no witness of or experience with the Lord’s atonement. We may have experienced the profound peace of forgiveness, etc. But it does not make us a firsthand witness of the event as Jesus Christ the Lord suffered through it and overcame. When I said “none of you are firsthand witnesses”, I probably should have said, “none of you has given a firsthand witness,” and I still have not heard one. And even if you have one, and bear it, that would be YOUR witness. The only way I would have of verifying its truth, for myself, would be to ask of God and receive some form of answer accompanied the power of the Holy Ghost (which is the only way to discern it was from Him versus some other source). The same way I learned for myself that the Book of Mormon IS true and that Joseph Smith translated it by the power of God and WAS a true prophet.

          So, basically, in my view, if you weren’t there (in some way), you can’t testify as a firsthand witness. And those were the kind of witnesses, I believe, referenced “in the mouth of two or three witnesses” law. It was sufficient to convict a man to death. Not even one eye-witness would do. That’s why we were given both Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery for many of the significant events surrounding the early restoration.

          No disrespect intended. Love and Peace.

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        • What would it mean for someone to be an eyewitness of Joseph not committing adultery?

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  5. Neither Tim, Denver, John or anyone I have read yet has given a word for word revelation from The Lord on this subject. This is a touchy subject, one that is obviously being talked about a lot. I have seen that Snuffer “rejects” the idea.
    I have seen people debate, present evidence and so forth. I and others have been willing to share revelations on this subject, and not one soul has been willing to share a revelation that 1. Joseph Smith did not commit adultery 2. Joseph Smith did not fall.
    There are countless witnesses that joseph smith was a prophet. I myself am one. I have felt the Spirit as much as any one of you reading the Book of Mormon and doctrine and covenants and pearl of great price. It is the same spirit that has told me what I know concerning what I share. It is the Spirit that confesses Jesus is the Christ.
    God supports the truth, and the truth justifies itself. Any amount of loyalty, fealty, desire, wishful thinking, use of words, worldly evidence, amount of people willing to testify, any amount of neglect will not change the truth. Either Joseph Smith committed adultery or he didn’t, either he fell or he didn’t. There is only one way to know and that is to ask God in faith, with no fear of what the answer might be, and obtain a “yes” or a “no” by pure revelation. That is the ONLY way and I think in your hearts you all know it. You just will not ever truly know, even if you say you know, unless you obtain revelation on the subject.
    I reject testimonies that admittedly cannot cite The Lord for the Source of their testimony. If everyone likes the circular search of worldly evidence where people speculate, make conjectures, debate historical evidence and so forth, if they like the realm of curiosity, ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth, then that is where they will stay.
    If you say Joseph never had sex with women without revelation, you by default become a respecter of one man over many others. If you say Joseph did not commit adultery without revelation, you become a respecter of Joseph over those who said he did. You choose loyalty to one man over loyalty to others and become an unjust judge.

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    • By the way, I too believe when we use the language of revelation: “I know”, “I testify”, it has bee “revealed” to me, etc…the use of such language bears great responsibility. We should be willing at all times to give a reason for the hope that is in us, or cite the witness we have received, the source of the revelation that has come to us

      I respect those how testify in clarity and honesty, stating the source of revelation. I take seriously whenever a man or woman comes “in the name of the Lord”, for God is not trifling with us. And yet I will seek the confirmation of the Spirit to discern the source if I can.

      As a long time gospel teacher, I have not always used my words in Spirit and Truth, though I thought I was so doing, when I declared on so many occasions what I “knew”, and when I bore my “witness” with as much clarity, force and vigor as you will ever hear from any modern LDS apostle. Time, tragedy and great sacrifice have shown me what I do not know, and what I merely believe–what I choose to believe. I now consciously take great care with the language I use, because I now understand the power my words can have on either to coerce and to compel. I realize I have know power but to persuade in meekness, gentleness and love.

      When I truly “know” and I am told to declare what I know, I will do so by God’s authority. Until i have received His word sufficiently to declare it, I am content to state what I believe, and try to persuade based on that belief and what the scriptures contain, citing those who I believe speak having authority and encouraging all to experiment upon the word.

      If any have a word from the Lord, and he has asked you to declare it, do so, please. I thank you for so doing.

      Let us not trifle with the souls around us and always be kind.

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    • Minority,

      In the spirit of clarity, and not contention (i hope sincerely to avoid this) I would like to ask you some questions.

      “I reject testimonies that admittedly cannot cite The Lord for the Source of their testimony.”

      I have observed that on many occasions, on this blog, and others, you have done precisely this, when you have declared various “truths” you “know”; or what has been “revealed to you”; or experience you’ve had with “higher beings”. Am I mistaken in my observation?

      Can you declare that you “know” (and if so by what source) that Joseph did have sex with any of the women that he is alleged to have done? If you “know” this, is it by the fragments of the historical record or by revelation from God? If you do “know” this from God, do you also know that, if he were to have had intercourse with any of the women, that it was illicit and was not at God’s command? (For the record, I remain agnostic on the subject, and accept fully God’s word and will on the whole matter, whatever it may be.)

      You have previously declared unequivocally that D&C 132 is not a revelation, and that you “know” that the doctrine of only one man at a time holding certain sealing keys is false. How and by what source do you “know” these things?

      You have declared that you “know” that Abraham sinned when he took to wife and fathered a child with Keturah, and that the punishment for his sin was to sacrifice Isaac (I hope I got that right. If not, please clarify my error.) This is a startling revelation, if it be a revelation. One worthy for all to know and understand with certainty, for this one notion changes much of the landscape of faith for all who accept the restoration through Joseph Smith. Can you declare from whence you derive this knowledge?

      I have no such knowledge upon these subject. I have studied for many years and have many beliefs and some conviction, yet I seek pure knowledge. I appreciate any clarification you can provide. Bless you in your sincere efforts to lead people to seek the Spirit. In this we agree very much.

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  6. Mark 1:23-24

    23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,

    24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

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  7. By the way it does not break the golden rule to pray about such things. Would you want a judge to judge righteously (by pure knowledge from revelation) or to judge unrighteously when it comes to judgment of a subject. What if when Oliver Cowdery was ex-communicated, he was hoping to God that the members of the council would only simply pray until they received revelation on his testimony? What if he was hoping they would set aside their bias and loyalty of Joseph and simply pray about his testimony? Is it right to sweep it under the rug?
    “It is better that men should be judged of God rather than men. The judgments of God are always just, the judgments of men are not always just.”

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  8. Mormon 8:20
    20 Behold what the scripture says—man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay.

    3 Nephi 14:1-5
    1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.

    2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

    3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

    4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

    5 Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

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  9. 8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray. (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi, 2 Nephi 32)

    I encourage everyone to pray to obtain an answer for yourselves on these very important subjects. If anyone encourages you that it is wrong to pray about this, for any reason at all, could it possibly be good?

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  10. I suppose if there’s one subject about which we are entitled to revelation, it is the subject of who we can trust to teach us about Jesus Christ. I am satisfied with what I have received from the Lord when I asked about Joseph so many years ago. I cannot share what I received because it was intended only for me and would not make sense to anyone else. The Lord speaks to us each in ways best for us.

    I make no statements about Joseph’s participation in plural marriage one way or the other. I did not ask about that. Frankly, I never was as interested in that particular subject as I was in his reliability as a witness of Jesus Christ. I have posted a few thoughts about what I have read from published sources, but those are only my observations. I have never asked God about Joseph’s plural marriage activities.

    I reaffirm my witness of what the Lord told me about Joseph, and I mean that literally. The voice of the Lord came into my mind as I have related it above and in previous posts. I know His voice. Just as there are many who bear witness the Lord spoke peace to their souls about trusting the current apostles and prophets, my witness of Joseph as a trustworthy and reliable witness remains intact after all these years.

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    • The revelation you quoted in your piece is wonderful and nothing that I wouldn’t agree with Tim.
      So are you saying that you can accept everything Joseph Smith ever taught upon the gospel as truth? Obviously he admittedly got it wrong at times. Do we trust the original revelations he received or the ones he altered? Which version of the Book of Mormon do you accept, the original or the one that was altered? Do you trust that the book of Abraham was a literal translation from ancient papyri like Joseph claimed, or is it something else? Is is good to trust EVERYTHING Joseph Smith taught?
      Of course these are mostly rhetorical questions but do you think that God would truly ever have us simply trust a teaching, a purported revelation, a doctrine or principle without revelation on that very teaching, revelation, doctrine or principle? Would God ever tell us to just put our trust in a man and hearken to everything he will teach, or that he has taught? I do not believe God would ever do such a thing. The Holy Ghost is a greater Prophet than Joseph Smith.

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      • Perhaps it would make sense to pray about the revelations claimed by Joseph, than the character of Joseph himself.

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        • Lemuel I do see logic in your suggestion. The only reason I respond to a lot of these things and have asked about it, is because, as all of us see, people continually testify of Joseph’s innocence and greatness. So I wanted to know for myself, and now when someone teaches something opposed to what the Holy Ghost has told me, I don’t feel right about sitting back and remaining silent. I don’t believe the Lord would tell me something to hide under a bushel and not share when circumstance warrants it. Plus look what Denver said not too long ago.

          “Go to God and ask Him about everyone who teaches and everything taught.”

          It seems that people are almost suggesting that Joseph Smith is exempt from this. I was not satisfied simply knowing Joseph was a prophet. I wanted to know if everything he taught was prophetic. That entails praying about his teachings one at a time. That is the only way to do it. Would you be willing to pray about each of his teachings? Has the Lord told you that he commanded Joseph Smith to start collecting tithing? How about the word of wisdom, was that ever truly given from God? (even though it seems like decent stuff) Section 132? 124? and so on and so on.

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      • Hi Nate. All I’m saying is the Lord told me Joseph was his prophet of the restoration in a way I understood and accepted. I guess my point is that I accept the idea of prophets – that there is someone designated by the Lord as his messenger. I never said trust everything the man said or taught. Joseph said “a prophet is a prophet only when he is acting as such.” I believe that.

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        • Thanks Tim and I know you don’t believe that we should just accept anyone’s teachings without confirmation.
          I believe The Lord sends messages through people, but he never makes a messenger true, only the message He gave to the messenger. Almost without fail a messenger immediately begins to impose his/her biases, opinions, interpretations etc onto the message that was given.

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  11. As I consider the Golden Rule even, as Log has suggested, I think to myself: if I were a prophet (“If I were a rich man, yubby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dum.” :)), and I had sinned and fallen, and I was now dead and passed on (where one’s sins and the truth may be laid bare), and many people elevated me to the status of one of the greatest prophets who had ever lived, and were granting such a weight to all my words and teachings, would I mind if they inquired of the Lord and He told them the truth? No, I would not.

    Alternatively, if I were a true prophet, etc., and had been faithful to the end, had died as a martyr, and actually was one of the greatest, etc., but all manner of charges had been leveled against me by my contemporaries in the historical record, leaving future generations in understandable doubt about my ministry and teachings (perhaps after some point at least, if not all), would I mind if they inquired of the Lord to learn the truth? No, I would not.

    And therefore the Golden Rule does not preclude ME (I speak for no one else, nor impose my view) from seeking a revelation on Joseph’s current status, as a prophet or key-holding dispensation head, etc., or his possible past failures as the Lord’s purported servant/prophet. Nor am I precluded from seeking revelation on the validity of the revelations which are purported to have come from the Lord through him, including D&C 132, which apparently justifies polygamy for at least one person holding special keys, etc. In my opinion, Joseph is a public figure, subject to some degree of scrutiny, discernment, and inquiry. And since I am not contemporary with him, and cannot ask him myself, I seek the Source of Truth and pray.

    For those of you, like Log, who consider the “did Joseph commit adultery” some kind of violation, I leave you to your own interpretation of what you will or will not ask, seek, knock, and consequently receive. Serve and worship how, where, and whom or what you choose. Do as it pleases you. For those of you who feel this way, I wonder would you consider it inappropriate (for each of yourselves) to ask “did Joseph Smith fall from grace before his death?” or “was he true and faithful and chosen to the end?” or “Were David Whitmer’s and Oliver Cowdery’s testimonies concerning Joseph’s infidelity and fall true?” or “Did Joseph Smith practice polygamy?” How is that different from asking if Joseph was a true prophet and his revelations from the Lord, and being open to both affirmation and repudiation? Would not repudiation indicate not-so-positive things about the purported prophet? Are there false prophets? Are there true prophets who have fallen? Did David fall? Did Judas fall? How will I know such things, if I care to know them, without revelation? I’m not saying any of you need to ask these things. Many of you have proclaimed that you will not or see no need to. As you wish. Please don’t bear a false witness based on extrapolation or assumption.

    I am not persuaded by the many arguments which have been presented not to pray about these things. Nor am I persuaded that the answers I’ve received by the power of the Holy Ghost are from a dark/evil/false source. Please don’t ask me to accept something (which is obviously muddled history) based on its self-evidence or your interpretation of scripture (however thoughtful) without asking the Lord for myself. Please allow me to approach the Lord as I see fit and not be judged as an accuser of the brethren or speaking evil of the Lord’s anointed. The Lord can tell me Himself who his Brethren are and who His anointed might be. You don’t speak for Him to me (unless He tells me that you do).

    And truly, Peace and Love to each of you on your journeys through this formidable experience we call mortal life, in the midst of eternity. 🙂 (and I apologize for the length)

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    • Amen. In the end, our salvation and eternal happiness depends upon the merits of Christ and our willingness to repent – put off the natural man and change – obey his commandments and do what he asks of us. We each have our own relationship with the Lord and with our God. Mine includes accepting Joseph as an authoritative source on certain subjects. His message – delivered as a prophet – has blessed me.

      For example, I accept the books of Moses and Abraham as revelation, just as I accept section 132 as revelation. Others do not. That’s okay. I also happen to accept Denver Snuffer as an authoritative source on some things. I believe he was sent with a message from the Lord. In that sense he is a prophet. I enjoyed watching General Conference with Carol. I was inspired by many of the talks. They blessed my life.

      I like to share what I learn though study and prayer about what I believe is truth. Persuasion is one tool I use, but in the end, I’m more interested in making sure I don’t bring a spirit of contention into the dialog. You are welcome to believe what you want about the gospel and salvation. If some of what you believe coincides with what I believe, we can rejoice together. I speak only for myself, praying it will be helpful.

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    • Jesef

      Thank you! Amen!

      I was not aware there is “Inquiry conduct.” If I am to be admonished for improper inquiry, I trust the Lord will do that in His own way. I don’t want to feel that I cannot inquire of the Lord about any subject. I believe that my “intent” for wanting to know something about any subject is probably more important than what I ask.

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  12. Tim,

    thank you for your good example in remaining civil and having a reasonable discussion. I agree that all of us can rejoice together in our faith in Jesus Christ and we all ought to respect each other’s freedom of worship and opinion and belief. Open dialogue and reasonable discussion can help us learn to love one another without always having to agree.

    I ask these questions and I admittedly do not know the answer to them all. How much falsehood can exist in the minds of the people who seek Zion? How important is a sure knowledge on each of the things we believe and teach? I wonder if Zion can only be built up by those willing to set aside every falsehood and only be willing to accept a teaching that is given by revelation from God. Does one need to know anything by the Holy Ghost to enter Zion, or is it more about outward behavior?

    I believe love comes from the Spirit, and that each Truth we are given by the Spirit gives us more power and love, and to try to separate revelation from Charity is not possible, perhaps others disagree.

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  13. I will let all interpret the Golden Rule as they wish. I will simply note that it doesn’t say “All things whatsoever ye would not mind done to you, do ye even so to them, for this is the law and the prophets,” but it does say “All things whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, do ye even so unto them, for this is the law and the prophets.” Whatever you want, desire, or wish men to do to you, do all of those things unto them. But ye may take it howsoever ye wish, remembering that as ye mete, so shall it be measured to you.

    But consider more fully these.

    John 14:15
    15 ¶If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    Matthew 7:12
    12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

    3 Nephi 15:9
    9 Behold, I am the law, and the light. Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life.

    Mormon 8:20
    20 Behold what the scripture says—man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay.

    John 15:10
    10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

    Doctrine and Covenants 82:10
    10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

    John 8:31-32
    31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

    32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    He has asked us not to judge, and we already know we do not wish to be judged, but rather accepted and loved and trusted. Therefore, it seems to me a disciple had not ought to adjudicate in a conflict, nor seek to meddle in affairs that are none of his business. The disciple, it seems to me, had not ought to credit an accusation without actual evidence, and the disciple, it seems to me, had not ought to judge between men, for the Lord has commanded us not to judge.

    I do not say do not pray, but if you ask the Lord to help you do something he has asked you not to do, does that not break the law? Do you suppose the Lord will break his own law when he is himself the law? And if he does not break his own law, but something is received, then what power provided it?

    I wonder what the Lord would have said if one of the pharisees had asked the Lord to hand him a stone to cast at the woman accused of adultery.

    The discerning reader will note this is not a defense of Joseph in the accusation of adultery, for I am not a witness to the matter. I simply declare the teachings of the Lord, and how I understand them.

    You may choose for yourself, for it is given to you, and this life is provided that you may select the principles by which you will relate to your fellow beings, showing which law you prefer to be governed by. For myself, I will not judge between Oliver and Joseph. I cannot inquire because the inquiry breaks the law of the Lord as I understand it, and where much is given, much is required, and he who sins against the greater light receives the greater condemnation.

    I can only declare Joseph’s fruits – his teachings – have been delicious unto me. On the other hand, what are the fruits of the spirit of the accuser?

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  14. I find all of the fruits of the Lord’s teachings delicious. I do not want the teachings of Joseph Smith, I want the teachings of the Lord, and if some of them were through Joseph Smith then i rejoice in them. If there are teachings that are truly only the teachings of Joseph Smith then I discard them, and the only way to know is to get an answer from God on any of them. Have any of you been told by revelation from God that a false spirit has taught me what I have claimed? If not, and you suggest I am being taught by a false spirit, you become and accuser and an unjust judge, and have become guilty of the thing you preach against.

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  15. John 7:17
    17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

    So it is with those delivered through Joseph.

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  16. I have done all I can do.

    The rest is up to the diligent student of the Lord’s ways. Choose whom ye will obey, and whom ye will take to be your teacher and your minister.

    I have made my choice.

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  17. And I will clarify, since Log quoted me:

    If I were a prophet…, as I said above in paragraphs too lengthy to requote, I would prefer it (not just not mind it) if people inquired of the Lord concerning me, my status, my teachings, etc., before following me (posthumously) and basing their lives and salvation upon them, etc. And thus the Golden Rule does not preclude ME from seeking, asking, or knocking concerning such things.

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  18. We can not know His will, except by revelation. No amount of reading words from a book will help us to “do his will.” If we go about doing things that others say are the will of God, and do not receive each commandment from God Himself, we are acting without knowledge, and wandering a strange road. The iron rod is the word of God, not to other men, but to us individually, and all other words, as wonderful as they may seem, are not to be trusted, at least not for me.

    “15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.”

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  19. I guess I only take God, Christ, and the Spirit as my teachers and ministers. Perhaps in that you find the veiled interpretation of the verse that people frequently quote now.

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  20. Ah, there is one more aid to judging justly.

    Moroni 7
    1 And now I, Moroni, write a few of the words of my father Mormon, which he spake concerning faith, hope, and charity; for after this manner did he speak unto the people, as he taught them in the synagogue which they had built for the place of worship.

    2 And now I, Mormon, speak unto you, my beloved brethren; and it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, and his holy will, because of the gift of his calling unto me, that I am permitted to speak unto you at this time.

    3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven.

    4 And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men.

    Who shall rise up and condemn Mormon as an unjust judge? And if he is not an unjust judge, then maybe those whose walk with the children of men is not peacable are not followers of Christ.

    5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.

    6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

    7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

    8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

    9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

    10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.

    11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.

    12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.

    13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

    14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

    15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

    16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

    17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

    18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

    19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

    20 And now, my brethren, how is it possible that ye can lay hold upon every good thing?

    21 And now I come to that faith, of which I said I would speak; and I will tell you the way whereby ye may lay hold on every good thing.

    22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

    23 And God also declared unto prophets, by his own mouth, that Christ should come.

    24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.

    25 Wherefore, by the ministering of angels, and by every word which proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, men began to exercise faith in Christ; and thus by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing; and thus it was until the coming of Christ.

    26 And after that he came men also were saved by faith in his name; and by faith, they become the sons of God. And as surely as Christ liveth he spake these words unto our fathers, saying: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is good, in faith believing that ye shall receive, behold, it shall be done unto you.

    27 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased because Christ hath ascended into heaven, and hath sat down on the right hand of God, to claim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men?

    28 For he hath answered the ends of the law, and he claimeth all those who have faith in him; and they who have faith in him will cleave unto every good thing; wherefore he advocateth the cause of the children of men; and he dwelleth eternally in the heavens.

    29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men.

    30 For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness.

    31 And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him.

    32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.

    33 And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me.

    34 And he hath said: Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye may be saved.

    35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

    36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

    37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

    38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.

    39 But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not fit to be numbered among the people of his church.

    40 And again, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you concerning hope. How is it that ye can attain unto faith, save ye shall have hope?

    41 And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise.

    42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.

    43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.

    44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.

    45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

    46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

    47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

    48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

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  21. Tim,
    I am very appreciative of your willingness to share you belief and your witness in meekness and humility. It is very helpful to me as I seek knowledge for myself. Bless you.

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  22. First, I apologize for the length.

    I hope no one interprets my comments as contention. I seek the Truth, Light, Love, Peace, Joy, Glory, I seek God. And I hope and pray you all the best for this world and the next. Peace be unto you all. Please forgive me if I find Brother Snuffer’s teachings to be not without foibles, errors, contradictions, as well as bias, opinions, assumptions, and interpretations (to which he is entitled as a free agent and a fallible human being).

    http://denversnuffer.com/2015/04/a-choice-seer/
    “I reject the accusation Joseph Smith was ever a “fallen prophet.” He was promised by God, sent by God, commissioned, guided, directed, inspired and led by God. His life was foretold in prophecies almost as many centuries beforehand as Christ’s life was foretold. We diminish Joseph Smith and his ministry at the peril of being “confounded”–as the prophecy of ancient Joseph of Egypt promises.

    Where does the prophecy God gave to Joseph of Egypt foretell the promised seer’s failure? Instead of failure it promises the seer “will the Lord bless” and the Lord will “make him great in mine eyes” and he would “be esteemed highly” among people of faith. God said to Joseph, “I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee [Joseph] even unto the end of the world, and through all eternity[.]” (D&C 132:49.) Those who testify against him do not persuade me to disrespect him.

    God blesses and visits those who take seriously the Book of Mormon, which we only have because of the latter-day seer, Joseph Smith.”

    How can I know the truth of this teaching and interpretation? That Joseph was not a fallen prophet, as David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery apparently charged? That Joseph Smith was the seer being spoken of in 2 Nephi 3 or that it teaches he would never fail or fall? Or that D&C 132, which (suspiciously) was published by Brigham Young in 1852, was actually even an unadulterated revelation of the Lord to Joseph Smith; and if indeed it was a revelation given to Joseph, that it was of the Lord (authorizing polygamy – the very practice which precipitated his death)? I do not disrespect Joseph Smith. And I know for myself that he WAS a true prophet who accomplished a great work in translating the Book of Mormon which IS true (it is what it claims to be, in spite of some alterations, etc). I just don’t trust Joseph Smith (or Denver Snuffer) or any man, for that matter, without the Lord’s continued endorsement. How would I know if Denver Snuffer’s message is of the Lord, or which parts, or whether he went off the rails in the his 10th talk where he dropped most of his bombs?

    http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Plural-Marriage.pdf
    “Some accuse Joseph Smith without sufficient proof, and they will find God applies that same standard to them. It has even been foolishly claimed by some that they have “prayed” and God has revealed to them Joseph was an adulterer! I would never trust such a “revelation” as proof. Christ did not accuse the woman taken in adultery, even when He had eye-witness proof against her. If He would not condemn her with such proof, why would the same God condemn Joseph Smith in a “revelation” because someone asked in prayer? Would the same Lord of mercy send the woman taken in adultery away without condemnation but condemn Joseph? Would our Lord divert our attention from the history we have that lacks proof of this about Joseph to furnish proof through prayer to diminish His servant Joseph? When the Lord sent an angel to tell Joseph that his “name should be had for good and evil among all nations” am I to assume it would be the Lord Himself who would speak both “good” and “evil” of Joseph? Satan is the “accuser of the brethren” not God. If in an answer to prayer anyone listens to an accusing spirit to judge Joseph, I very much suspect they would be in tune with the wrong source, or else God has become changeable and contradicts His own prior revelations.
    Footnote: By answering a “prayer” informing the inquirer Joseph was “an adulterer” it appears to me to qualify as “evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed.” It seems incongruent to me for the Lord to call Joseph, accomplish a great work through him, expect mankind to “seek blessings under his hand” (D&C 122:1-2), but then supplement the posthumous record by a revelation condemning him. Is the Lord among the ‘fools who shall hold Joseph in derision?’ (D&C 122:1.)”

    Overall this seems like spurious logic to me, as well as a bit of fear-mongering mixed in. I am not persuaded. God has not given me the spirit of fear. I’m also not persuaded that I cannot ask, seek, or knock of the Lord about almost anything that pertains to my life and salvation, including whom I choose to accept as a teacher from the Lord, past or present. Again, Brother Snuffer is entitled to his views. I do not believe I accuse Joseph by asking certain questions about him, his claims, his faithfulness to the end, etc. I would rather not trust anyone to be my teacher nor my minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments. And how shall I know the true prophets and men of God from the false or fallen or pretending prophets? By their fruits, meaning I shall inquire of the Lord about them and He will manifest to truth unto me by power of the Holy Ghost. That is what I believe. That has been my experience. That is my testimony. That if I lack wisdom, I can ask of God, and he will give to me freely and not find fault with or scold me. The Lord is so unlike man, so much higher in His ways and in His thoughts. I praise Him. I do not sing “Praise to the man…”

    http://denversnuffer.com/2014/12/things-now-underway/
    “You must assume the burden of distinguishing light from darkness, truth from error, and pretenders from those sent by the Lord with counsel from Him. Trust no man [including Denver]. Go to God and ask Him about everyone who teaches and everything taught.”

    I completely agree with Brother Denver here but I’m having trouble reconciling this teaching with some of the other ones.

    http://denversnuffer.com/2014/10/whats-wrong/
    “I believe He will not give an original revelation to reveal what He has already revealed to us in scripture. Instead He requires us to first study His words, then when scripture becomes unable to answer the inquiry, He shows us by revelation how to see what is there before us. Some of the greatest things I have beheld by revelation I have then found to be already described in scripture. I just did not have the eyes yet to see it.”

    Does anyone else see the contradiction in this paragraph and the irony overall?

    I do not accuse Denver or Joseph, and I am not offended by their words, but I will inquire of the Lord concerning them and their teachings and claims, including their claims of authority, rather than accepting them carte blanche. I do not want assumption, extrapolations, or interpretations. I want knowledge and truth. I will therefore hearken unto the Spirit which teaches me to pray and know that I must pray; and I will ignore the evil spirit which tries to teach me not to pray or that I must not pray. If I’ve misread or misunderstood him, I would love to be corrected (by him). I’m also open to all of your opinions, thoughts, and comments. Again, Peace and Love to each of you.

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    • Jesef,

      “The Lord blesses and visits all those who take the Book of Mormon seriously”…. I am not understanding your thinking actually. Help me understand. The Book of Mormon distributed by the Gentiles were the only ones to have it for many a many a years. It has been 185 years since published. Of all the people in the world, which hearts ye know not of whom the Lord may have visited and blessed without this book, what makes white gentiles more blessed than any other race creed or people.

      I understand that the Lord will bring no one to this land unless he leads them here, but how can we discount the entire worlds population to be replete with delusions of grandeur over a few WASPS who have had the Book of Mormon? Are we putting a little too much credence on your interpretation of the many people on the earth that have been or will be blessed and visited? Are we the only people who have something going?
      Why is it that everyone affiliated with a book of some truth as being the main saving point on our sojourn on earth? Remember, we will not be as the Father until we gain all the experiences of the Father. Now this takes a long, long, long time. I suspect many sojourns. The idea of being saved by what we read or what our belief system is seems a little watered down in the scheme of things. “Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, for they are they which testify of me”. Experiences trump what we read by a long shot.

      Perhaps I am not understanding, and for this I apologize.

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      • sfort, sorry that was unclear, but that quote “The Lord blesses and visits all those who take the Book of Mormon seriously” was part of the Denver Snuffer quote (http://denversnuffer.com/2015/04/a-choice-seer/), not part of my comment, which came right after that statement. 🙂 (ok, putting my magic ring back on)

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        • Jesef,

          I should have known, for this I sincerely apologize for assuming. I always have and do respect your train of thought, logic, reason, and sincerity toward God and the scriptures. Keep your mind available to share with everyone. Thanks for your response.

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  23. And I will clarify, since Log quoted me:

    If I were a prophet…, as I said above in paragraphs too lengthy to requote, I would prefer it (not just not mind it) if people inquired of the Lord concerning me, my status, my teachings, etc., before following me (posthumously) and basing their lives and salvation upon them, etc. And thus the Golden Rule does not preclude ME from seeking, asking, or knocking concerning such things.

    Jesef,

    What does the phrase “respect of men” mean to you if it does not mean to bring men upon unequal grounds based on their standing?

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    • To skip to the end of this line of inquiry, either the standard you propose applies to all, or it applies only to a few based on special pleading; but if to that few, then that is what is meant by having respect to persons.

      I predicted when I composed my comment that the response would be “But I want my sins revealed and shouted from the rooftops; that is the golden rule to me!” I did not anticipate special pleading based on status.

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      • And the scriptures do not present having respect to persons in an entirely positive light.

        Of course, that only matters if one’s goal is to conform one’s behavior to the teachings of the scriptures.

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  24. I feel very grateful that I was not born with much intelligence. I learned very quickly that my own logic, the powers of my own mind, my own interpretations, my own reasoning were not to be trusted.
    All of the philosophy, interpreting of the law, the reasoning of men of great intelligence, and testimonies of men with titles of glory are dust in the wind when even one revelation from the Almighty God has been given to me on a subject.

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    • Minority,

      Why do you feel the need to so oft declare the “revelations from the Almighty God” that you have received? Pardon me, but you seem to throw them out like bread crumbs, as if sufficient signs that you know of what you speak, while keeping the loaf to yourself. And no, I don’t mean to reveal hidden mysteries not lawful to reveal, but simply to reveal that you have talked with our Lord face to face and He has told you in plain humility what you know and to declare this that or the other.

      As it stands you bandy about your “knowledge” and “revelations” so often and in such a way that it seems you are attempting, by those declarations, to add weight and credence to your words. Am I mistaken?

      Are you a minister of the gospel of Christ? Have you received authority from Him to declare his word? I sincerely would like to know if you are or if you like me, hold many deeply held beliefs, convictions, witnesses of the Spirit, manifestations, etc. that are leading you to further light and knowledge? Have you, as Paul and Alma exhorted us to do, entered the rest of the Lord?

      Though it is my greatest desire, I have not yet entered into His rest, therefore I have no such authority to declare His word.

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      • If I declare affirmatively to all the questions you asked, would it make a difference to you? If someone gives more weight to someones words because of anything they have claimed to have seen, there is something wrong. The Spirit is the only way we can receive a spiritual truth. Why does everyone throw around other men’s purported revelations and “bandy” them about instead of citing their own? I would rather that everyone would share their own revelations instead of guessing at the truth of others and using them in an authoritative manner. If you desire to know the answers to any of the questions you asked, there is nothing stopping you from finding out. I couldn’t possibly stop you from receiving an answer on any of those questions, nor could any words I write put the truth of any of those answers into your heart.

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        • But you don’t cite your own. You make vague reference but you don’t follow your own request.

          You wrote earlier: “Neither Tim, Denver, John or anyone I have read yet has given a word for word revelation from The Lord on this subject.”

          I’m simply applying the same standard in asking you to do the same. It doesn’t affect me personally whether you have or have not been in the presence of God. However, IF God has given you a message to declare then I do want to hear it and receive it by the Spirit. If you have a message from heaven, please declare it.

          Sharing opinions, musings, beliefs and inspiration is very different from declaring revelations, visions, prophecy by orders of magnitude. Do you not see this?

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  25. Tim… it was wonderful to read your post! You inspire me….and I say that without any feelings of idolizing you. I can believe your words because I know by the power of the Spirit that teaches me the truth of all things. Another reason why I know your words and experiences are filled with light is because I can compare them against the “posers” who highjack this place from time to time. I share your feelings about Joseph…and I have received my own personal light concerning him as well. God bless you Tim Malone!

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  26. Ask of God. Let God be the judge of men’s hearts and words and deeds and eternal statuses. And, apparently, from too many scriptural precedents to quote, He is willing to reveal and expose our sins, wickedness, and iniquities, in His wisdom, without respect to persons (I think you are right, Log – though I don’t see how this squares with your representation of the Golden Rule), whether one is a king and a prophet who fell, such as David (for adultery and murder), or a false prophet, or a hypocritical and murderous-of-heart scribe or pharisee (Matt. 23). If all these scriptures are true. I don’t claim to understand all His wisdom or ways.

    As some seem to be miffed by this discussion, possibly with me (Is it I?), I will withdraw.

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    • Jesef,

      I’m not miffed with you. I am saying if you truly want your sins revealed by the Lord, then reveal others’. If you wish your sins to be forgotten, then forget others’. If you have respect to persons, crafting a law so exactingly detailed so as to pertain to one, or a few, to their condemnation, then that is how you shall be dealt with.

      (Like those job ads that are so exactingly detailed and restrictive that maybe 10 people on the planet could qualify for them; sometimes, it’s clear that only 1 can.)

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      • I found several examples which I think illustrate the principle, but all together they are too numerous and lengthy to quote without drowning the thread. So I picked this one.

        [blockquote]
        Helaman 9
        20 Saying unto him: Thou art confederate; who is this man that hath done this murder? Now tell us, and acknowledge thy fault; saying, Behold here is money; and also we will grant unto thee thy life if thou wilt tell us, and acknowledge the agreement which thou hast made with him.
        21 But Nephi said unto them: O ye fools, ye uncircumcised of heart, ye blind, and ye stiffnecked people, do ye know how long the Lord your God will suffer you that ye shall go on in this your way of sin?
        22 O ye ought to begin to howl and mourn, because of the great destruction which at this time doth await you, except ye shall repent.
        23 Behold ye say that I have agreed with a man that he should murder Seezoram, our chief judge. But behold, I say unto you, that this is because I have testified unto you that ye might know concerning this thing; yea, even for a witness unto you, that I did know of the wickedness and abominations which are among you.
        24 And because I have done this, ye say that I have agreed with a man that he should do this thing; yea, because I showed unto you this sign ye are angry with me, and seek to destroy my life.
        25 And now behold, I will show unto you another sign, and see if ye will in this thing seek to destroy me.
        26 Behold I say unto you: Go to the house of Seantum, who is the brother of Seezoram, and say unto him—
        27 Has Nephi, the pretended prophet, who doth prophesy so much evil concerning this people, agreed with thee, in the which ye have murdered Seezoram, who is your brother?
        28 And behold, he shall say unto you, Nay.
        29 And ye shall say unto him: Have ye murdered your brother?
        30 And he shall stand with fear, and wist not what to say. And behold, he shall deny unto you; and he shall make as if he were astonished; nevertheless, he shall declare unto you that he is innocent.
        31 But behold, ye shall examine him, and ye shall find blood upon the skirts of his cloak.
        32 And when ye have seen this, ye shall say: From whence cometh this blood? Do we not know that it is the blood of your brother?
        33 And then shall he tremble, and shall look pale, even as if death had come upon him.
        34 And then shall ye say: Because of this fear and this paleness which has come upon your face, behold, we know that thou art guilty.
        35 And then shall greater fear come upon him; and then shall he confess unto you, and deny no more that he has done this murder.
        36 And then shall he say unto you, that I, Nephi, know nothing concerning the matter save it were given unto me by the power of God. And then shall ye know that I am an honest man, and that I am sent unto you from God.
        37 And it came to pass that they went and did, even according as Nephi had said unto them. And behold, the words which he had said were true; for according to the words he did deny; and also according to the words he did confess.
        [/blockquote]

        Nephi knows by the power of God that a citizen (and probably public figure), Seantum, has secretly combined to murder his brother, Seezoram, the chief judge. Nephi exposes this to a public forum of people. How is this fundamentally different? If God is no respecter of persons, and He isn’t, and He live the Golden Rule, which He does. I don’t think Seantum wanted to be exposed for murder to the people.

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        • And Nephi did not ask.

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        • This also might help.

          Doctrine and Covenants 58:42
          42 Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.

          The Lord forgave Nephi’s sins, and they sins were forgotten; the Lord gave him what to reveal about Seantum, not of Nephi’s will, but of the Lord’s. Nephi did not ask about Seantum’s sins. Nephi was of such a character as he would in all likelihood not want to know about anyone else’s sins; for that reason he got up on his tower and mourned before the Lord. Remember – Nephi’s words were not what convicted Seantum, and constituted no evidence against Seantum. Seantum confessed.

          The Judgements of God is that the truth about you is revealed. The justice of God is that you are placed in the power of your informed enemies.

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        • Nephi received, or was given, by the power of God, knowledge concerning the sins and iniquities of the people, leaders, and an individual murderer, Seantum, in very particular detail, who apparently would not have been discovered otherwise.

          Nephi’s prayers are not recorded so I don’t know exactly what he asked or didn’t.

          But read it as it as you please.

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        • I agree that the Lord does not remember repented sins. But David apparently was very penitent of his sins and yet they are recorded in scripture. Perhaps David wanted them recorded to teach future generations.

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        • Jesef, I see that I am opposed on every point. As you are not asking, but announcing, my part is over.

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        • I bid you nothing but peace, Log. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and beliefs with me personally. I will consider that I might be wrong and you right – where we seem to disagree – and see what fruit it bears in my soul.

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  27. Minority, I’m not all that surprised at this reply. You don’t give the very answers you ask of others whenever they cite their own revelations.

    In this very comment thread you asked, “Do you mind sharing exactly what The Lord told you upon these very subjects word for word? We all know the seriousness of bearing false witness, and so I assume you will not make up a revelation or put words into God’s mouth.”

    Why demand this of others when you claim a different standard for yourself?

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    • I don’t mind sharing what The Lord has told me ever. I will always quote the Spirit. I am very open about what the Spirit has told me. If you read all of my posts and comments you would see I am quite open about some things that I have seen but I also am very open that seeing means nothing.

      In revelations and Ezekiel it talks about the voice of The Lord being like “rushing waters.” The reason is because every word that The Lord speaks comes with waves and waves of the Spirit and it is like the rivers of Truth flow through the spirit and body with every single word. It is the exact same Spirit that I cite with every revelation I share. I am always happy to share (as many have complained about) what the Spirit has told me.

      I don’t care about asking people what they have seen, because I know visions do not mean nearly as much as people think they mean, and usually they lead people astray. I ask what their revelation from the Spirit is because that is how we learn truth.

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      • This is not all you do. You declared against Abraham, against Joseph Smith calling them both gross sinners. You declared you will never ever ever accept D&C 132…not citing the revelation, not even citing the source.

        I don’t quibble with revelations you have received. I take issue with your capricious methods and intemperate use of language.

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        • I find the easiest way to tick people off is to tell the truth.

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        • Why so flippant?

          If you are referring to me, you haven’t ticked me off. I hold absolutely no ill feelings toward you or anything you have said.

          I am simply seeking clarity and discernment regarding bold and remarkable claims you have made about Joseph Smith & Abraham, and the spirit and character behind your claims of knowledge and revelation.

          Your answers are revealing.

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  28. If you judge by outward appearance that goes against what the Master taught us to do. Discernment is when the Spirit teaches us truth.

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  29. I don’t judge you, I leave that to God and assume you have the best of intentions. I try to discern your words. Today and yesterday, listening to conference, I didn’t judge the LDS general authorities. I assume that they have the best of intentions. That counts for a lot in my book when people are sincere. I only judge their words and what I can observe.

    Again, you have made some very bold, and as far as I can tell, entirely new claims (if true, then revelation indeed) regarding Joseph and Abraham. You have proclaimed them both adulterers and that they had to sacrifice for their sins in taking multiple wives (Joseph had to forfeit his own life and Abraham the life of Isaac). And yet you haven’t done as you’ve requested in this thread and shared the word for word revelations. Would you be willing to do that? I don’t ask in order to call you out, only to discern the revelation. For, if true this would be a remarkable and important revelation indeed–in my mind, vital for our understanding God and His dealings with us.

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    • About section 132 “Section 132 was not given from God.” I also asked about many of the doctrines in section 132. I was told plainly that the doctrine of keys only being contained by one man is false. That “keys are inherent in the priesthood.” “All of the keys of the priesthood are within everyone.” I have been told that Emma Smith was one of the best women of the restoration and that the doctrine that if she did not accept Joseph’s other wives and all that about her being destroyed was false (section 132)
      I have been told that “polygamy has never been commanded.” I have had a confirmation of William Marks testimony. I have received countless confirmations of David Whitmers testimony that 1. Joseph Smith should have not been sustained as a prophet, seer , and revelator for the church 2. The church should never have been institutionalized.
      3. The book of commandments should have never been published for the world to read. In specific answer to the question if Joseph Smith committed adultery with fanny alger I received a powerful “Yes!”
      “Abraham would have never been asked to sacrifice Isaac if he did not sin in polygamy.”
      These are just a few. I understand the claims are different than usual but they are not unique. There are many others with the same testimony, and there have been people with the same understanding since the time of the early saints. Look into the “temple lot” church. I hadn’t even heard of them before I gained a witness of most of these things. These claims are in no way new.
      Most all of the Christian world has the same understanding of Abraham sinning with hagaar because in the bible account Sarai admits it was sin and there is never even a hint that it was commanded by God. Paul compares hagaar to bondage. These things are not new. There is no biblical evidence that Isaac practiced polygamy as section 132 claims. Some verses in section 132 completely contradict the Book of Mormon and even other parts of the doctrine and covenants. We have another section where joseph smith is giving all the keys to hyrum. Granted the same section has clear contradictions to the doctrine set forth in the Book of Mormon.

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      • I very much appreciate your clarification and expounding upon the revelations you have received. Bless you Minority in your search for truth.

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  30. Tim,

    I suspect you may have already read this testimony, perhaps even have blogged about it I don’t know, but just in case, the eye witness testimony of Jon Durfee concerning both our Lord and Joseph Smith is clear, unequivocal and, I find, very powerful. He concurs with you. Tim, bless you in your efforts and all you have done for so many, including myself.

    For any and all who would like to read an independent witness from Tim and Denver of the mission and ministry and standing of Joseph Smith, read here: (the testimony is mostly at the very end, but the whole post is very much worth your time and prayerful consideration) Cheers.

    http://awakenohmysoul.blogspot.com/2015/03/a-new-day-dawns_15.html

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  31. Most of the topic has been expounded. But it is that old LDS nemesis hanging over our heads. It is the confirmation whether a man is something or not. Have you ever heard anyone in the scriptures confirm whether they believed that someone was a prophet other than Jesus and John the Baptist? This is an invention of the disembodiment of the church. When things are expounded from the Lord directly, the thing expounded should be clarified and confirmed, not the individual who presented it. I don’t care who DS is, who Joseph was, and who Brigham was. I don’t care who Thomas Monson is. I listen to revelation that is meant for me to hear. If the type of a man or woman is a dichotomy, then listen to the portent of the subject offered, period.

    It is this silly notion we believe someone is this or that that is wearing. It seems old habits are hard to break. If the subject causes action in a good way and the benefit of your fellow beings, then it is good fruit. I personally am not interested in analysing the tree. Check out the roots; the branches can go a myriad of directions. It is the roots that matter. Joseph is currently dead, I presume. Why try to exhume him? He was an amazing man; I’ll deem he was one of the El’s. But is Noah, Moses, Adam or Enoch were around in the 19th century where diaries and articles in newspapers were prevalent, I dare say there would be a whole lot of good and bad to say about them as well. I mean, Noah was naked in his tent and drunk. I’ll bet you if Variety Magazine was around, they would have wished they were at that party.

    Let us focus on the Word as we know it and rise above the flotsam and jetsam. There are many things concerning our eternal nature we just don’t know. The reality of things coming just may not be what your belief system has conjured up. Let’s be flexible and seek to rely on the Holy Ghost writing the things on our being, which is just remembering anyway.

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  32. I do not believe God would reveal someone’s past sins if those people had repented of them. In this I agree completely with log. I have been told that we all have life reviews, and if we have found forgiveness none of our sins will be shown, because it is as if they never happened. The Lord remembers them no more.

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  33. Sfort,

    Thanks for that refreshing comment. That is the difference once again that will set people apart in the coming days. Is it as Denver, Joseph, and others claim that we will have one guy with all the keys who acts as the mouthpiece for God that we all must link with? Or is it some other way?
    I leave you with this testimony everyone. I have spoken with joseph smith on numerous occasions. I love joseph smith, I do not suggest you lean upon his teachings if you seek Zion. I know for myself what his fate was.
    I do know that people within every religion can see visions, even visions of Christ if they seek them. I myself have had such visions, but I have been told plainly that no man, including Joseph Smith, including Denver Snuffer, has seen Jesus Christ IN THE FLESH for a very long time. Meaning to see Jesus Christ in His body and in His glory, through their own physical eyes in this physical realm.
    I know it. I know that one must be transfigured/translated in order for this to occur, and no man or woman has climbed the mountain by the grace of God to do it. If you feel secure in Joseph’s fate, as well as his teachings, that they will lead you to your desired destination, then that is well. You will know for yourself at some point whether you have chosen correctly or not.
    We often think people just haven’t tried hard enough to love Joseph’s teachings. The LDS church has taught this as well. “If we would love according to what we have already received…. THEN…” Striving to love according to the LDS canonized scripture will always lead to the same destination. Is that where you want to go? God bless each of us (as I know He will) to find what we are all looking for.

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    • I apologize for the constant typos it is the autocorrect. In the above insert “live” for the word love.

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  34. Nate: Bret adds to your thoughts about visiting with Joseph:

    http://wordpress.77truths.com/?p=417

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  35. Thanks for sharing that Tim I enjoyed reading his sincere testimony.

    How many have received visions, obtained everything that anyone has in the LDS movement, and have never even heard of the Book of Mormon or known anything about Joseph Smith? Did he have some corner on truth and power that others didn’t?
    I love Mormonism because it plants the idea of prophets and revelation in people, but it also plants the idea of one main prophet guy on the earth and everyone else below him in the patriarchal chain, which will always lead to unrighteous dominion and oppression.

    Is that what being a “joint heir” is all about? Is that being equal in spiritual and temporal things? If we put one human above us in our mind, we immediately plant the idea in our mind that we can’t progress any faster than that human being above us. What if we can progress far beyond where Joseph Smith progressed to in his life?

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  36. Joseph wasn’t a lightbringer.

    That might explain why so many hold him in such high regard.

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    • Log,

      Does a man or woman need Joseph Smith to be linked with God?

      Each person who sustains Joseph and Denver literally give them light. It is backwards from the economy of God. If Joseph took people’s light ever, instead of being used as a vessel to give others light, he becomes a light bringer. The moment a person teaches a falsehood and blocks people’s progression they become a light bringer. The idea that only one man holds all the keys is a mental doctrine of compulsion and an affront to others spiritual agency.

      You admittedly use external evidence to support your view of spiritual truth.

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  37. I know that Joseph Smith and Denver Snuffer had/have a link to the other side of the veil. The economy they propose (Denver has not specifically stated that he is the one that holds the keys but he has hinted at it) is one that is a possibility. I know that. There are huge downsides to it and if Denver takes that role he takes on a role where it could lead him and all who link with him to damnation and a kingdom that is not where people want to go. He hints at having knowledge of this and I hope he thinks seriously about it.
    If he becomes a spiritual father to people, and teaches one falsehood (every falsehood is damnation to one degree or another) then he is responsible for the damnation of all those who have linked with him. What is happening now is Joseph Smith is losing people who he linked with, they are realizing they are not getting to heaven with him as their father. Denver claimed something to the effect that whatever God was doing with Joseph is done. Ok so I think Denver has learned Joseph Smith is not/or shouldn’t be a spiritual father to Denver Snuffer. This is true, but it doesn’t mean what people might think it means. Just because Denver has surpassed Joseph Smith in spiritual progression (which I am sure he has) and I think people will be way better off with Denver than in the LDS church, that does not mean we need to start another one man holding the keys model with one spiritual father on the earth. That is not the model Christ instituted in His life.

    The true model is a father acts as a vessel and teaches truth that lead others to become fathers who are equal in all things to the first, then they go out and do the same thing with more people, and then it happens again and again until all have received the name of Jesus Christ and they are completely equal in keys and all things spiritual. Moses tried to do it and the people were too stubborn and faithless (and it just wasn’t time) Joseph Smith initially started with this and then turned it into a one strongman model that was not of God.

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  38. What a time we live in! What a blessing, test and challenge to be a sincere believer and seeker of truth in the midst of such stark and competing voices and testimonies concerning the work begun by Joseph Smith and the gospel of Christ.

    On one hand, you have the strong arguments of the “one true church”, concerning authority, and on another you have the fundamentalists in all of their variants and claims.

    You have the Philip Landis followers and those who believe in the sealed portion through Chris Nemelka.

    And then you have the public and unequivocal eye-witness testimonies of Denver Snuffer, Daniel Rogers, and Join Durfee. There are others, some with public testimonies and others working privately.

    You have the testimony of Tim Malone born in meekness and love.

    And here, yet another unique voice, Minority has shared his witness and his teachings.

    Many voices, many choices.

    What a marvelous opportunity to learn discernment.

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    • The thing is be still (by the way yes it is an awesome time to be alive)

      I read John D’s testimony, and I have read Denver’s. They have claimed nothing that The Lord has told them specifically that contradicts the revelation I have received. I would like to hear Denver, or John D claim that The Lord has told them something word for word that contradicts what I have written. Then we can say there are conflicting testimonies here. I had many spiritual experiences as a member of the LDS church that I thought were validating all of my beliefs within that religion. It kind of blew my mind when I learned that I was making a grave mistake by trusting ANYTHING that was not given to o me personally by revelation.
      Do you think if someone sees Jesus in a vision as a “faithful” member of the LDS church, or within one of these communities that it means anything concerning the truthfulness of the LDS church or of these communities? It doesn’t. People have visions of Jesus in every Christian religion. That truly means nothing.
      If someone seeks a vision of Jesus, that is what they will receive. Many seek a vision even more than they seek the Truth, and it is to their own detriment.

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      • But I guess that would probably require praying about it first, which it seems people are suggesting is some kind of no no.

        Be Still,

        Can I ask you how you think the gift of discernment works? What is your process of deciding what is true or not?

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    • In every ramp up “war in heaven” for the next round there always appear to be many voices, and many choices. Just like today. As Neal Maxwell once said, if you have not chosen The Gospel of Jesus Christ in this life it will, in the end, make no difference what you have chosen instead. Joseph Smith attempted to restore that Good News. Those who remember the voice of our beloved brother and prototype of Noble Manhood, Jesus Christ, recognize Him through the pure, clear words of Joseph and now Denver. This is the ultimate in natural selection. The predators will continue to sniff around the edges for the weak and silly. The sheep know the voice of the Shepherd. All are safely gathered in ere the winter storms begin…..and the storms now begin in ernest. The flock is gathering to the Shepherd.

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  39. I used to laugh at the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They don’t believe in revelation. That goes against their religion. Yet what is strange is they have a chair that someone can go up to sit in if they are one of the 144,000. They are big into the 144,000.
    One day I was talking to a few of them and I asked them, “well how would someone know if they were one of the 144,000?” One of them thought for a second and said, “They just know…”
    “So you don’t believe they have to receive revelation that they are one of the 144,000?” I asked. “No God doesn’t give people revelation,” was the response. “So you are saying that through their own judgment, without revelation from God, they just somehow know they are members of the 144,000?”

    Well I thought this was absolutely ridiculous! How can someone just know something that they haven’t received revelation on? This was quite the odd belief in my opinion. I just thought it was so unreasonable for them to believe that they could discern such a thing without revelation, but apparently people of many faiths, including the one I was raised in believe the same thing as the Jehovah’s witnesses, that you don’t need the word of the Lord on a matter, because you just simply know of yourself.

    I remember on my mission I used to ask people to pray about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. I knew that if they got an answer from God it would rock their world, change their paradigm, they would learn that their current religion was full of holes, and life would never be the same if they got an answer from the Lord on the matter. I remember I would always be baffled when people would answer that they wouldn’t even pray about it. They would listen, and be curious, and many would argue, but they would not pray to ask God for themselves to know if the Book of Mormon was true. I always thought people of other religions were so faithless, they knew that if the Book of Mormon was true it had all kinds of scary implications and it would cause a complete shift in their lives, and so they didn’t even want to go there, and they thought that those who got answers about the Book of Mormon being true must have received something from the devil. I see the same arguments from people of all faiths about anything I ask them to pray about. It is truly baffling.

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    • Minority,

      I am not here to accuse you of anything, or to pick a fight. I have only asked you to clarify some of your passing statements, and respectfully, to do so without glibness, a tendency that I find unhelpful in a forum where truth seeking is paramount. You did that and I’m grateful. I appreciate clarity and sincerity a great deal.

      There is such a great deal of contention today among all the different parties of religionists mulling around the blogs, facebook, even here, and I find it so wearisome. If I have contributed to that with you, please accept my apology.

      There is such poisonous air of partisan bias that rises up so often, from almost all sides. Just today, I read Brian C. Hales response to Denver’s teachings–it was so full of bias, misrepresentation and ignorance of what Denver has actually said or written, and his arguments for his (and the church’s) position were woefully lacking coherence and logic–a leaky sieve at best. FAIR and others have done the same. Still others have done that to the church as an institution and to its leaders many many times. All of this is too obvious to belabor the point. I despise prejudice and misrepresentation. The times I am aware of being guilty of it, I repent speedily–because I loathe when it is done to me. I don’t want to prejudice your comments either, hence the desire for clarity. I’m not sure I have a firm grasp on your words at this point and I certainly don’t pretend to know your heart, but what you’ve given has been helpful.

      As for me, I don’t pretend to any special divine gifts. I hope to receive all that I can handle and hold. As far as discernment goes, I’m not sure I’m very good at it at all. I don’t claim certain knowledge of anything at this point in my life. My circumstances have of late leveled me, humbling me to depths hard to describe. I am in a process of rediscovery–of myself and my faith. For years upon years, I have studied, prayed, pondered, fasted, served, repented, cried out, hungered, repented, listened, reconsidered, sacrificed, repented (not just of behaviors but of ideas and beliefs) and on and on. I have made more mistakes in the process than I can count. I have simultaneously grieved the loss of my delusions and been freed by their absence. I am weak in my understanding, I am not qualified to teach truth to anyone. After half a lifetime in the church (I’m still in the church), I truly feel I am in the nacent stages of being able to hear God’s voice and understand it. I am beginning to exercise faith (as far as I understand it) as Alma described. I have cried out to God to show me what to believe in, as I have had to start almost from scratch. So that’s me.

      I sincerely appreciate those who can say in meekness, like Tim, that they know God’s voice. When there is no compulsion, manipulation or guile in their words, I listen earnestly. I have a dear friend for whom this is true. I want very much to be able to say the same. When someone says that they know my Lord personally, intimately, having spoken with Him, touched Him, been taught face to face by him, and their words are likewise meek, I give particular heed, and pray for understanding.

      I have met many people who have claimed many things; visions, revelations, gifts, manifestations. In most cases, I have not been persuaded that the things shared with me over the years were of God, at least in purity and power. I am naturally skeptical, and yet I leave room for the possibility that I’m wrong. Yet the tools they employed did not convince me that the source of their claims was purely divine.

      I don’t know if Denver has had the experiences he claims, but in studying his words at great length, and in speaking extensively to one who knows him intimately, I am persuaded to believe. But only believe. I’m am experimenting on the word as I understand it. I don’t accept everything he has said as eternal truth–I don’t believe it wise to ever do that with anyone or anything, simply based on the limitations of the English language. As Heidegger put it, our language limits our being. I try to make room in my mind and heart for the infinite possibilities of the universe. I am constantly checking with the Lord to see if I am understanding correctly, and pleading with Him that if I am in error on any point, that He let me know. But I am also putting the word to the test, especially the doctrine of Christ, as Denver explained it from the scriptures, and in many ways the word he has delivered has born great fruit. And so I continue.

      I have studied Joseph Smith and the restoration for years, and continue to do so, and I choose to believe what he said about himself (he asserted late in his life that he had continually been virtuous) and not jump to conclusions about his character, without getting the word from God Himself on the matter. I respect that you have a different view. I choose to believe the thrust of what he taught, as I understand it, and yet I make room for further light and knowledge. I don’t know that everything he ever publicly said or wrote was right, nor do I know where there was definite error. I don’t yet have a clear enough understanding, doctrinally or historically, of the D&C, JST, PoGP Lectures, to make a judgment on what exactly came from him and what was added by others. I hope to at some point, but when I do, then I’m open to God teaching me what it all means. Yet I choose to believe the overall scope and premise of what Joseph taught as far as I understand it.

      I don’t idolize him or Denver in the least, and yet I am so grateful that both have offered the testimonies that they have. Denver has given the most extensive and clearest testimony of our Lord of anyone I have ever read. I do not believe there is a comparable testimony in all of scripture–in terms of volume and specificity at least. I take that seriously, not that I then accept everything he says, but that it has caused me to ask the Lord to tell me if he has told the truth; if the message was authorized by Him; if certain particulars are true, etc. I don’t follow Denver in the least, but I choose to believe that the Lord asked him to offer to me the invitation to be baptized anew at this particular time. And so I acted in faith, because I believe that word to me came from the Lord. I do all of this in the face of great opposition all about me and at great personal risk to myself and my family.

      So, were Joseph, Abraham and Moses and adulterers? I don’t believe so, but if they were, then so be it. If the plurality of wives was always an abomination, I accept it. If God has ordained it for His purposes, then I accept it and await understanding. If Denver were to suddenly reveal himself a meglomaniac and go against virtually everything he has said and start practicing polygamy and/or building a church and cultivating a following, that wouldn’t destroy me and I’d move on, and ask the Lord for understanding. I don’t believe Denver would do that, but if so, so be it. If the LDS church turns out to be exactly what it now claims, then I’ll accept it and get back in line. I don’t believe that will be the case, but if so, so be it. I only ask God to show me the truth and help me understand it in a way that I can know for myself.

      For now, I am most influenced by gentleness, meekness, kindness, love unfeigned, patience, persuasion, and pure knowledge offered without hypocrisy or guile. These tools when employed (which is done so rarely) have allowed me to perceive that my soul is enlarged and my mind enlightened, and the words delivered begin to be delicious to me. These tools help me to discern as do their absence. And, having planted the seed, nourished it by diligence and heed, the fruits I see and am tasting, as a result of what I believe I am receiving from the Lord and through Denver, are indeed delicious to me.

      That was a long answer, but I wanted to be clear. Hopefully this has been.

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      • Thank you for your answer and I pray sincerely that God will give you all the Truth, revelation, power and light that you are seeking. You will find it.
        I do not enjoy contention either, and I consider you a friend and fellow seeker. God bless.

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  40. Very interesting dialogue, sometimes monologue. As someone of wisdom has said. “Seek to know your physical body, its parts and psyche, then your surroundings, i.e., geophysical nature for that is why we are here; then seek to know your spirit or the ray of light within you the eternal soul, then you may be in line to ask to know God”. Sometimes it is the cart before the horse. I think there is much work to do, wouldn’t you say?

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  41. When I was concerned about polygamy, whether it was true or false, etc., I asked the Lord several questions, including:
    Do You (O Lord my God) have more than one wife?
    Was D&C 132 a revelation given by You?
    Has polygamy ever been (approved/authorized) of You?

    I don’t think the truth of these things can be obtained by study or reason and logic alone (nor by assumption and extrapolation), either of scripture or of history.

    I lacked wisdom. I asked God. He gave freely without upbraiding me. He is so unlike man, HIs ways and thoughts so much higher.

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  42. I have read through a lot of these comments and one thing that everyone should agree on is that there has been inequality that has come from some of the so called “revelations” from Joseph Smith. I have had many edifying times reading some of the thing Joseph taught but at the same time I have had the Holy Ghost confirm things that were not right that he claimed. The Holy Ghost is the prophet that we all need to have as our teacher. No one else. I mean how simple I the scripture that says don’t trust in the arm of flesh?

    I will tell you what has come from people following the arm of flesh. The wickedness and false teachings have come from trusting in all of Joseph Smiths teachings. Women have been looked at and treated as less because of the fake revelations that Joseph Smith received.
    I have a testimony of this from the Holy Ghost. There has been a curse upon the church and that includes everyone who is a member. We need to break away from this idolatry and trust NO ONE but God. To stand behind polygamy or anything that takes away from the value of Gods daughters is evil and all need to be awakened. If any of you men think you will have many wives in heaven I pray your hearts will be softened and your eyes will be opened to the suffering that the LDS women are going through. Many men have taken advantage of their wives and have stolen much light from them in their tenderness. These things need to be corrected at fixed.

    LOG, you talk a lot about the GOLDEN rule… Does that apply to women as well? I am not certain what your beliefs are with women not having the priesthood and having to go through their husbands. I would like to know if women don’t apply towards the Golden rule or do they have a separate rule? The Silver rule maybe since they aren’t as important and are lesser because of what Joseph Smith taught?

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  43. I would like to add my voice to this thread. It has taken me a long time to read all of it and there is much discourse, much truth, yet much deception through reciting verses of scripture to hold-up one’s own perception/belief. Though many are unwilling to ask the hard questions, thank the God of heaven and earth that there are those who are willing to put aside all preconceived teachings, and surrender that they might receive God’s voice on this matter. I also have had visitations by Joseph … I was not expecting what he had to say on the subject. I do not want to put forth the whole experience, but there is a lot more to Joseph then what has been discussed here … a whole lot more. He is extremely humbled and repentant and trying to repair what mischief he has been done. But he is not sinless in the respect of adultery. None of us are without sin, and yet it seems God still uses us for His purposes. Maybe the hardest thing we can ever do is maintain our faith in God when we have to discard teachings that we have held sacred for a lifetime. What I learned does not mean that Joseph’s translations of the BOM and Pearl of Great Price are not correct but it does mean that many parts of the D&C are rubbish. I love Joseph … it was a very humbling experience to interact with him and my heart aches for him. I know Bret (truthworks) personally, I know Denver personally, I know many of you on this thread and I have asked why we are all not receiving the exact same revelation regarding this matter. And I have been instructed, that until we put aside all worship of all other men and only worship the One and True Living God, we can only receive portions of truth. For our honor and revering of other men gets in the way of our worship of our God. When we stop clamoring to follow a man, and ask God to tutor us there will be a time when you may receive messengers that aren’t from God, but this is the test we all have to go through so that our discernment is fine-tuned and we are then qualified to receive His true messengers. We all are fallen and only Jesus can redeem us … not Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Joseph or Denver or MInority can do that. (No offense Denver or MInority). All have failings and faults and sins. I know many people who re visionary as Joseph was and boy do they get to see a lot of things, but it doesn’t mean they are understanding it, or receiving from the highest realms as there are so many different dimensions that we are taken to and if not careful, we can be deceived. Until you are all willing to take Joseph off the pedestal, take Denver off the pedestal, take all men/women off the pedestal, and most important take yourself off the pedestal, you are committing idolatry. Right now God is not forcing us to break our idols, but the time is coming soon that if we allow any man/woman to come between us and our God we shall regret it for a very long time. I don’t get on blogs very often for there is so much pontificating by everyone (including me right now). Forgive me. I am here to be a witness as to what Minority and Jesef have said … It was a hard thing to break out of the “church” box, but the box of “joseph” may be even harder. How you ask a question is very important … You only receive that which you are willing to receive. God makes us holy … God wants us all to be holy. God wants us all to put aside pride and be taught by Him and no other. God help all of us. When we rail upon each other, it is coming from our own pride and not from God. I become so discouraged and frustrated that we are all so fractured and disjointed … I have a desire to love you all, to understand where each of you are at in your journey, yet I find myself at times ranting and judging and criticizing. Though Joseph did wrong, he did so much right and God stands by all that Joseph did which was right in the sight of God. May we all surrender our own pride and ask in humility for God’s truth. God wants me to end my post by quoting Joseph – “If you will throw a cloak of charity over my sins, I will over yours—for charity covereth a multitude of sins”.

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    • Absolutely 100% truth. Thanks for sharing.

      Like

    • I disagree on a few points. I do not believe that you are actually a woman, and wonder why you so represent yourself as Hannah. I think all this hidden identity is cowardly and deceitful, as you know. I do believe that you, Bret and Nate actually have encountered an entity you believe to be Joseph Smith, but I believe that you have been deceived by brilliant counterfeits in order to have come to some of the theories you have espoused in prior comments. The ultimate natural selection. I’m not impressed by name dropping, whether or not you do actually know Denver Snuffer is irrelevant. To say that God wanted you to tell us all something is one of those ” oh here we go again” moments. Unmask and stand in the light of day, Hannah, or whoever you are, and let us reason together as real people with skin in the game.

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      • Like

    • Hannah, that was a beautiful post. I love what you said about Joseph, “Though Joseph did wrong, he did so much right and God stands by all that Joseph did that was right in the sight of God.” I’ve come to learn that Joseph was human, like myself, but I love Joseph and the truths that he delivered from the Lord as much as I ever did. I know that we must forgive others as completely as we, ourselves, would want to be forgiven by the Lord.

      I appreciate what you have shared and I agree completely with all that you said. Except for maybe the part about Minority having sins. 🙂

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  44. I agree and say Amen.

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  45. LOG, you talk a lot about the GOLDEN rule… Does that apply to women as well? I am not certain what your beliefs are with women not having the priesthood and having to go through their husbands. I would like to know if women don’t apply towards the Golden rule or do they have a separate rule? The Silver rule maybe since they aren’t as important and are lesser because of what Joseph Smith taught?

    The Golden Rule applies to whomever chooses to abide by it. You are fully answered.

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    • 51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice. (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, D&C 132)

      Golden rule God?

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    • I am fully answered? Maybe if my standards are having “the answer” make absolutely no logical sense to me or anyone else.

      The Golden rule is to serve what purpose? Is it to bring equality? If that’s the case then the LDS church and Joseph Smith never have come close to those standards.

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  46. Dear Lynne,

    I am a Hannah … it is a title … and I am a woman and I know you and your husband and one of your sons and the immense struggles that you face even now. I know that you can be very kind, even in your boldness. There is purpose in my not disclosing my earthly name at this point. However, this thread is not about you nor I, but about Joseph. I am perplexed as to why the Great Creator God has not yet made things known to all, but I do believe that the Restrorer of all things will come soon and we will all be walking in sackcloth and ashes and repenting for all that we chose to believe which was not truth. We will all bow down to the Great I Am, not Joseph. I think one of the most damaging things as a church that we have been brainwashed into believing is this quote by John Taylor – “Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it”. Joseph was made into an idol … and it is not fair to him nor us.

    ABSOLULTELY NO ONE PROVIDES SALVATION BUT JESUS CHRIST … period. To put Joseph next to Jesus to me is sacrilege … for what about all the other IMPORTANT prophets like Noah – who saved the human race. Adam who began the human race (and who many believe is God the Father incarnate who began the population of providing tabernacles for his spirit children). The list goes on and on and on.

    I am not here to belittle Joseph … he is involved in a great work of unraveling the mischief of polygamy. It will take him a very long time. I am here to share a very small portion of what Joseph said to me. I’ve been to many of these communities and gatherings and tithing groups and I have found that there is no power being manifested in them. Good people with good hearts wanting to do good. God honors all of this … He is patient and kind and long suffering. But He alone provides salvation … There is very little power in an Aaronic restoration … I am not interested in an Aaronic restoration preservation … I am interested in the Church of the Firstborn.

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    • I see you and I know you. Counterfeits abound. This truly is an exciting time to be alive. Your theories about Joseph Smith reveal you and unmask you to me, if to no others. We shall see how this all turns out.

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  47. 54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law. (Doctrine and Covenants, Doctrine and Covenants, D&C 132)

    That is the one I wanted to paste Darnit, now the question won’t have as much zing.

    Golden rule God?

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  48. In Denver’s own words – an excerpt from his blog post of 12/20/2013

    What if there was something more to this idea than we have preserved? What if Joseph understood more about salvation that do we? What if Joseph could offer salvation to these others by “sealing” them to himself (he being a saved soul who had a connection to heaven)? What if Joseph was actually offering something of value to these women and to their families, which had little or even nothing to do with producing offspring?

    How can anyone but Jesus Christ offer salvation and yet here Denver proposes that Joseph can and that we really don’t understand salvation. Excuse me?

    Can anyone explain this to me?

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  49. In the Book of Commandments God said to Joseph “…and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift.”

    I believe the Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God because Joseph had that gift. But God plainly told him he should pretend to no other gift, and almost everything that came after the Book of Mormon was not of God.

    Why? Because Joseph desired it.

    Jacob 4
    14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

    The first vision was edited and changed a number of times. Sections of the Book of Commandments were changed or added to. The account of Peter, James and John coming to restore the priesthood was none existent in the Book of Commandments, but later added to the D&C.

    Polygamy was introduced in direct opposition to Jacob’s words in the Book of Mormon. Masonic rituals were introduced that have no foundation in the doctrines of Christ.

    If the temple work that Joseph introduced were so important, wouldn’t Jesus have introduced it in his visits to the Nephites? Did Jesus mention baptisms for the dead, marriage and family sealings, washings and annointings, endowments? No. His gospel of salvation always has and always will be simple and given openly to all.

    Jesus makes it clear in verse 33 below that all that is needed for salvation is belief in him and baptism. Then in verse 40 he warns that anything “more or less than this” cometh of evil.

    31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.

    32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

    33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

    35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

    36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

    37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

    38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

    39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

    40 And WHOSO SHALL DECLARE MORE OR LESS THAN THIS, AND ESTABLISH IT FOR MY DOCTRINE, THE SAME COMETH OF EVIL, AND IS NOT BUILT UPON MY ROCK; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

    I believe Joseph started out with a prophetic gift but soon let his own desires and ambitions overcome him. He sought many wives, to be a king, a Mayor, president of the United States, etc.

    Other than the Book of Mormon all the fruits of Joseph have been “added” doctrines of which Jesus said were evil.

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  50. Adam, you’re my hero today, along with Jesef, and Minority and Revenger … Everything is to be about Jesus … not about anyone else. People are so busy trying to preserve a restoration that they are not being restored or re-established with heaven or receiving their Second Comforter, and then their Third Comforter (God the Father) and then their Fourth Comforter (God the Mother). We are to have sealing and ordinances performed in heaven by our God. That only comes when Jesus opens the door to heaven and invites us in. When he opens that door it is only the beginning … and it is available to all of us … if we leave idolatry behind and worship only God. Let the arrows fly for God is my shield and my protector …

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    • Hannah,

      We already are God’s family, and always will be. We can accept God and continue in eternal lives in gaining light truth and experience, or reject him and go on to the potter’s wheel to start over again.

      As mentioned above if there were sealing ordinances that were necessary for salvation Jesus would have openly taught them to the people. God does NOT work in secret.

      16 ¶Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. (Old Testament, Isaiah, Isaiah 48)

      19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. (Old Testament, Isaiah, Isaiah 45)

      For the Lord worketh not in secret combinations
      (Ether 8:19)

      I say unto you that the Lord God worketh not in darkness
      (2 Nephi 26:23)

      There is only one saving ordinance that is baptism.

      Moroni 7

      34 And he hath said: Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye may be saved.

      Mormon 9:23

      23 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned;

      3 Nephi 11:33

      33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

      Ether 4:18

      18 Therefore, repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and believe in my gospel, and be baptized in my name; for he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned; and signs shall follow them that believe in my name.

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  51. I wonder. How many of Joseph’s accusers have entered into the physical presence of the Lord, had their feet washed by him, and ushered into the Heavenly Temple, to stand in the Council and be acclaimed of the Father?

    How many of Joseph’s accusers, in other words, are, or have been, competent?

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    • I believe the Holy Ghost has received all that you listed and more log.

      Log and Karl,

      Do you know that God lives? If so, how?

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  52. All this He Said, She Said discourse is nonsense. Anyone taking a superior stance in argument and pulling the “God Card” out as a way to one-up the other person is not being moved upon by the Holy Ghost. They are either arguing from their own hubris and conceit or taking directions from the Adversary. God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost do not operate on this principle, because it violates (as Log has repeatedly point out) the Golden Rule, and the conditions of Priesthood. If God tells you something special, do everyone a favor and keep it to yourself. If you insist on telling special revelations, at least have the humility to understand that you will and should receive backlash from those with a different point of view. Logic demands the admission that two completely opposing points of view cannot both be correct (they MAY both be wrong). For example, if I claim that I “know” by revelation through the Holy Ghost that Sec 132 is a valid scripture, and you claim it is not, then both of us cannot be right. This is why I never use this form of argumentation. I am perfectly willing to argue my case with kindness, persuasion. long-suffering, love unfeigned, etc as Sec 121 directs, and patiently allow the Holy Ghost to work on those who don’t understand something the way I do. Now I may use logic, reason, etc to make my case, but I do not DEMAND that since I have received revelations, YOU MUST believe as I do. I just point this out, because this practice is epidemic by Minority of One and now Hannah (whoever you are).

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  53. And if any of Joseph’s accusers are competent, are they then able to bring people through the veil, as Joseph did Sidney? What are the fruits of Joseph’s accusers, aside from accusations?

    I dunno. Personally, I prefer competent teachers and ministers – those who don’t accuse, dispute, nor contend – err, call it “zing,” if you like.

    Those whose walk and work among the children of men are peaceable.

    Sigh. Where are the priests, prophets, and kings?

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    • Again log,

      You may disagree but I believe the fruits of the Holy Ghost are very good and delicious and He is a trustworthy source. As far as I have read, no mortal has accused Joseph of anything, rather they have passed along what the Spirit has told them.
      Let me point out some irony. Certain individuals act as if saying the Spirit told them something is wrong, doesn’t follow the golden rule, or whatever. Well how do you know that it doesn’t follow the golden rule? How do you know that it isn’t exactly what God wants me, or anyone else to do to say “the spirit told me?” How do you know that you are not sinning by suggesting in any way, whether subtle or outright, that we should not say the spirit told us, when in fact, the spirit did tell us? See by your own argument you cannot say that you do know it. You can quote all sorts of other men’s revelations, but why quote other peoples revelation instead of your own? Do you know their revelations are true? If so, how?

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  54. “If the temple work that Joseph introduced were so important, wouldn’t Jesus have introduced it in his visits to the Nephites? Did Jesus mention baptisms for the dead, marriage and family sealings, washings and annointings, endowments? No. His gospel of salvation always has and always will be simple and given openly to all.

    Jesus makes it clear in verse 33 below that all that is needed for salvation is belief in him and baptism. Then in verse 40 he warns that anything “more or less than this” cometh of evil.”

    you know I see people like to cherry pick ONE THING within 3000 pages of scripture and somehow declare this is it, this is all you must do, and i cant help but laugh.

    the ironic counter to your argument is the entire old testament which has no end to its bizarre symbols and complicated temple rights and ceremonies. the even bigger irony is that D and C explains how we go into condemnation which is by taking lightly the things of God, and I can say I am pretty damn sure mormons especially take lightly and even flat out ignore the old testament. oh such irony. though i know its not just mormons that like to pretend the God of the old testament never existed. part of why we all ignore the book of revelation

    not to say the aforementioned words of Jesus are unimportant, but to somehow say that one little bit by Him is all that matters, is somewhat laughable. Jesus speaks in parables, He is famous for that, so let’s not assume what He says is only what He says.

    people like you, lack any understanding of the gospel because unless its repent and be baptized and take the sacrament and receive the Holy Ghost you want no part of it. guess that means you want no part of ministering angels either huh? or miracles? or the Second Comforter and i could go on and on and on.

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    • Adam I too love the old testament and because I have studied the works of others who are knowledgable about symbols, etc., I have a very basic understanding of these rites,etc. all point to Christ. Jesus came to fulfill the law of moses and throughout the Old Testament and New Testament it is very clear that Jesus is the new and everlasting covenant. It isn’t the sealings that joseph smith instituted and we for so long believed. I had a friend point out to me that because jesus is the bridegroom and we are all the bride, that the new and everlasting covenant has to do with our being sealed to him … No other. Everything about the rites and ordinances of the Old Testament were to remind Israel of the coming of their God in a covenant relationship. Just do a search of everlasting or new covenant and you will see it has to do with jesus. Joseph caused much confusion and the church has just magnified the error.

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  55. Lo here and lo there! Where does it all end? Idolatry abounds. Jesus Christ in the only one that can save. We all need to be prophets and the only name that we should be uttered from our mouth is CHRIST. I believe that the BofM is the word of God. That Joseph was called to do a work. But can’t anyone see that the name of Joseph is coming up more than the name of CHRIST? I am not good at quoting scripture and I won’t say that the spirit prompted me to say this….. but it is coming from my heart. All should speak in words of plainness and not confusion. Be as little children. The mighty shall fall and the meek shall inherit the kingdom.

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  56. “I can’t help but laugh” ” people like you ” Ladies and gentlemen The accuser has made its presence in Tim’s blog. We must be doing something right to get his attention.

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  57. ““I can’t help but laugh” ” people like you ” Ladies and gentlemen The accuser has made its presence in Tim’s blog. We must be doing something right to get his attention.”

    1 Kings 18:27

    27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

    why what do we have here? a prophet openly mocking people. a famous prophet at that. one of the most famous of the whole lot. guess he’s an accuser too eh?

    go on I’ll wait for you to cast railing accusations at Elijah.

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    • 1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
      2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
      3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

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  58. “1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
    2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
    3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.”

    and where is that from?

    the point still stands Elijah openly mocks evil. Even God gets in on the act of laughter, but is this such a shock? He calls us all sheep, repeatedly mocks evil people by calling them fools and calling them out on their BS, and even Satan who has acquired the nickname of the serpent is openly mocked because snakes can be killed by perhaps the dumbest creature on the planet….turkeys. so yes even God seems to openly laugh at and mock evil.

    Psalms 37:`13

    13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

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  59. For those who are troubled by whether asking the Lord certain questions violate the Golden Rule, or are considered “asking amiss”, why not approach him as a child – assume that you could be wrong, assume that you lack wisdom, that His ways and wisdom are beyond yours – and ask the only true and living God Most High, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ (in gratitude, faith, sincerity, real intent, etc., Moroni 10:3-5), whether that particular question (or questions) violates the Golden Rule (or is amiss, etc.) and see what He has to say about it? (I humbly suggest you let the power of the Holy Ghost be the judge and the sign of any answer coming from God; that it must be present to certify that any manifestation is from/of God). I would do this before either subtly or overtly accusing another of asking amiss, breaking the Golden Rule, accusing the Brethren, or evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed, etc., in your own wisdom, lest peradventure you oppose God. In others words, ask of God and let Him be the judge.

    I will share one key which has helped me recognize the power of the Holy Ghost – the same power which manifested to me the truth of the Book of Mormon and that Jesus is the Christ: First, I approached my Lord God in prayer and simply asked if He would manifest the power of the Holy Ghost to me so that I could recognize it. I did this with the intent that I wanted to be able to recognize truth from Him versus any other source so that I could learn the truth of all things and grow and follow His Son, Jesus Christ, better in my life, and avoid deception and falsehood. He answered. And since I think we all share the belief that He is no respecter of persons, I believe He will answer anyone. Second, this scripture was recalled to my mind: “1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.” After having received an answer to my first inquiry, I then felt inspired to test this principle, so I declared aloud (I was alone), “Jesus is the Christ!”, not shouting but with all the faith and love that I could muster. Guess what happened? The same power of the Holy Ghost was manifest to me.

    I share this in the hope that it will persuade someone to hearken to the Spirit which teaches a person to pray.

    Please, can we discuss without accusing, without contending, without aspiring, without coercive or corrosive words? Peace and Love to you all in your walks through this life.

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    • I forgot to mention one detail. When I was testing Paul’s admonition that “no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” I ended up repeating it three times and each time the power and resonance of the Holy Ghost became stronger like waves passing through me. Now I truly don’t know how the power of the Holy Ghost might be manifest to each person, but I talked deeply enough with several people whose experience was similar to mine: make no mistake, it is power, and that’s probably the best word; other descriptive words I would use might be holy/spiritual fire, or electricity, and resonance also seems to fit.
      And just to wrap up, I would testify that this is the power that I trust to manifest truth from on High, so as not to be confused or wavering or tossed about by any sign, wonder, manifestation, spectacular testimony, innovative teaching or insight, etc., in other words to tell truth from sophistry or device of man or devil. This is the sign, to me.
      But it has passed many tests in my life in just a short time, including that it is the same spirit of prophecy, revelation, and seeing and discerning. It also passes the tests of inviting to do good, persuading to believe in Christ, loving God and serving Him, and thus I can know with a perfect knowledge it is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ and is of God (according to Mormon’s words in Moroni 7:11-19). As far is inquiring of the Lord goes, I will just say that I have found James 1:5 to be true, that if I lack wisdom and ask of God, He gives freely without finding fault (even with my foolish questions).
      I have spoken the truth, as clearly as I know how. I’m not dictating to any of you. Take/receive what I’ve shared or leave/discard it, as seems good to you. Any questions I have mentioned you MIGHT ask, were only suggestions. Ask what matters to you in your path and arduous climb up this eternal Mount Everest. But I would also suggest be open to all truth; be open to learning things you never supposed; don’t grip too tightly what you think is a complete truth or understanding of eternal things; don’t become implacable and unteachable. Become as a child (of Him) is what I mean. Ask and receive. I asked some things I wanted the answer to be No, but I expressed my sincere desire for Truth above my comfy blanket of tightly held conclusions and the Lord blew them away by His power. This is how I recognize answers from the Lord Most High.
      I think that’s all I have to say. This thread has reminded me why I took a long break from blogging. I am not called to teach so I am free to withdraw and take another break I think. I pray you all the peace and love of Christ and bid you a fond farewell (like Bilbo about to put on his ring). Good-bye. 😉

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      • Most excellent. Thank you and Amen.

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      • Open is key. Thanks for this. When I think of open, I put the paradigm of past learning and standard creed not only of tenets, beliefs, teachings, etc., but who God actually is. How much darkness reigns when many think it is the light of day. The searching soul will prevail. Thank you

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  60. Oh Jesef, please don’t take a break. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts and feeling of your spirit. Thank you for sharing … Discourse is always a good thing as long as we respect other’s agency to think differently and experience differently. It is when we force our opinions on others, that causes contention. I was once chastised by the spirit for my boldness … and was told I needed to exercise mercy and kindness – throwing the cloak of charity over those who oppose.

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