The Church Cannot Bring Zion


OneHeartOneMindZion is a study in personal micro-economics applied to the greater good.  In the application on the aggregate is where Zion will be found. I was an economics major 20 years ago, but concepts stick around even as the lessons get a bit fuzzy. For the uninitiated, there is this voodoo concept in economics known as utility. Utility, in the simplest terms, is whatever makes you happy.  It’s actually not that simple because happiness is hard to define.  It’s different for every person.  A better definition would be “enjoyment.” The purpose of micro-economic activity is typically for a person to maximize his/her enjoyment in life. The tends to be focused on the material, for now, but also in the future, and even for future generations.

Utility maximization is part of the natural man. It is inherent. That’s why to much of an extent, ascertaining private purchasing behavior works for experts in business and on Wall Street. People become billionaires ascertaining aggregate utility. In a way, I hope to rework concepts a bit so that there is a new definition, a new reality, and a new maximization point as we each try to reach for Zion.

Zion is not a maximization of utility, or enjoyment, but a maximization of grace. It’s grace unto others, which in turn, comes back to you.  It is linked to salvation; it is linked to overcoming all things.  It is the magic pill, if you will, in repentance. Think about it. How many time do we sin, repent, sin, and combat the natural man in hopes that one day we will be free of such things? We believe in grace, “after all we can do.”  I believe we misunderstand that scripture. It’s not all we can do as it pertains to teeth-gritting endurance of a particular temptation. It is after all we can do . . . for others. It’s an action statement, not one of white-knuckled determination.

So we need to ask ourselves, have we done ALL we can do? A major part of achieving Zion is throwing away the damnable doctrine of the “prosperity gospel” deep into the trash heap, the kind where the Lord blessed me with riches, with more “utility,” because I am a good guy and I love the Lord. It needs to die its Babylonian death. It’s true the Lord may bless you with more resources, with more stewardship, but if you spend it on utility, or the avoidance of needed to obtain utility the rest of your life or your children’s lives, you may as well be the unprofitable servant who buried the talent in the earth.

Capitalism

capitalismCapitalism will send you to hell. Capitalism is the accumulation of capital, or assets that leverage utility. Why would anyone want to continue accumulating capital after one “has sufficient for his needs?” The answer is fear of the future, fear of losing future utility, all the while believing that it’s based on some idea of merit or achievement, or a sense that one “deserves” their capital. John D. Rockefeller believed he was one of the richest men in the world because he was a teetotaling Baptist believer, yet he consigned so many to misery. Capitalism is worshiped by the rich and the wannabes as the secret of success. It’s accomplishment comes at surrounding yourself and insulating yourself with utility, and the fear and absence of future utility. It’s seen as a good thing because it motivates one to be a hard worker. But does it? If hard work accomplishes capital accumulation AT FIRST, it’s continued accumulation is usually accomplished at the expense of hard work, or in fine, buying and selling, manipulating, and cajoling the market into a situation where you can simply accumulate the capital through mutual commerce or at another’s expense while you while away your hours in leisure. While a good man can employ capitalism to benefit others, hoarding capital is never justified as a way to Zion. It is more often a way to a lost soul.

Government-ism

Uncle Sam cannot bring Zion. Zion is about changing hearts, not the law. Coercive legal action hearkens back to a fallen people, those who cannot sustain the higher things, whose hearts are not written the waters of life, who are not simply shamed into giving, but their wallets are force-ably raided. We trade one law for the next, one punishment for another, but Zion is a people in which the law is fulfilled in Christ. There is no need for a man, be it of the cloth or of the badge, to make intercessory with the Lord on our behalf. It’s true we may accomplish our design of helping the poor, but assistance without love, assistance or entitlement, of getting even, or reparations, do not heal the wounded soul. America’s poor have never had more utility, yet they are just as miserable as ever and riot to prove it.

The Church

LDSChurchOfficeBuildingThe Church cannot bring Zion. The priests and spiritual leaders will tell you . . . the Church will tell you . . . that it is good to be a capitalist. Perhaps you can help the Church with your great and giving donations. Perhaps you can afford to bring up more children, to serve in politics, to afford to be a mission president, or a general authority, to donate to causes . . . all worthwhile things . . . but will it save you? Will it save your children. Will it save others? Will your tithes do such a thing? Tithing supports business operations of churches. It does not go primarily to help the poor. Sometimes those donations are used indirectly to help the Church build up more capital. The Church is a corporate organization–it may have no board, but the Fifteen are indeed board of directors with a corporate sole who is entitled to make ALL decisions–in the hands of the President of the Church.

Icity-creek-centern building grand malls, investing real estate, and even building chapels, what does it do to help the poor, the sick and afflicted? Is it better to use tithing funds to build ordinances houses, which aside from the temple, are not mandated, than to help the poor? Some say that the effort to save is in the ordinances. Some say it is a hedge against bad times. True enough. But I say that a man will not be saved from his sins with any ordinance if he does not help the poor with his tithes and offerings–TODAY. He would do better to forget his chapels, to meet in the homes of the humble, with simplicity in ordinances, offering his tithes to benefit the afflicted in the group, as well as those in the poor houses and on the streets. No . . . tithing . . . at least in its current form . . . will not bring Zion.

What IS Zion, then, you say? Is it the law of consecration? Well that’s one application, but it’s even simpler than that. Zion is ONE HEART AND ONE MIND, and THERE ARE NO POOR AMONG THEM. Thus we must ask ourselves, what can we do collectively and individually, to accomplish such an outcome?  One is salvation of the self, which brings one in harmony with the Lord, and as such a man does so, and another such a man does so, then those men will be in harmony with each other. Until that day arrives, however, great care must be taken to understand our fallen natures, our low situation, our lack of knowledge, our unbelief, and our tendency for a need to be right. We need to fight these things and be simple and say that we know not, for the Lord has not revealed such a thing to me.

The other relates to it and it’s called Grace Flow. When we undertake to help the poor, we change our natures, our hearts are softened, we are forgiven more easily, and we can retain a remission of our sins in such a thing. We pay it forward to two principle groups, those who are poor in terms of being destitute, and those who will be part of our process in building Zion. The Law of Consecration was one way to do this, and it failed as an organized system, but it does NOT need to fail individually or in smaller groups. We consecrate what the Lord tell us to. In 1830 it was all of our surplus, donated to the bishop for redistribution according to each person’s needs. People were stingy and it did not work. Instead tithing was instituted, wherein a tenth of the surplus was required instead of 100%.

Now riddle me this. If 10% of gross income from a poor widow is required, and 10% of a rich capitalist is required (assessed at tax time when he knows his net worth and not assessed on his gross receipts), are we not trampling upon the poor with this newer modern definition? Under the higher law, the one called consecration, the widow receives and does not give. Yet under the lower law, she bears the greater burden.  One says that she is blessed for her sacrifice and that is true enough, but the sacrifice is at the hands of being trammeled upon in a way that is socially compelled.  God honors the sacrifice because of His tender mercies, NOT because of a person’s obedience to a false tradition. We should be so ashamed of such endeavors.  Under what tithing SHOULD be, we consecrate 10% of our surplus (AFTER our expenses) to help the poor and to help others trying to gain stewardship themselves to pay forward. If we are so inclined and have such faith, we may consecrate all. It does not even require a mediator or a bishop since the Lord can reveal to such an one with great faith where such funds are needed.

But it’s not easy. It goes back to utility. It is in the nature of all men, that when they get a little bit of money, they seek to dig a pit for their neighbor, to gratify their lusts, to increase their own capital and holdings unrighteously, and amen to Zion or even the Priesthood of that man. Seek ye therefore riches to help the poor, then shall you be rich, and perhaps in a deeper and more profound way that may change the definition of the word, “rich.”

There are movements now ongoing where communities are meeting to attempt such endeavors.  They are not supported by institutions or religious organizations.  Such attempts threaten these organizations and their systems they have set up for their own support.  It takes faith and a courageous heart to seek these out.  I implore any to do so.

41 Responses

  1. Great article!

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  2. Thank you for leaving this post! I have been pondering and working through my own path and process around this very concept of “Communion: A Peace of Zion”.

    What is Zion? What is at its core?

    What am I to experience or manifest to realize Zion?

    We are missing some significant concepts, experiences?

    Sure, we can swap scriptures, dogma, all day long … but what brings me, you, all of us to this experience?

    I know that we have turned upside down this experience of “priesthood,” of “church” of “Zion”.

    Christ serves.

    True priesthood comes to those who serve, who elevate, those who exalt.

    Not top, down.

    You utilize a different “language,” but we are all speaking about the same experience.

    We have to go deeper than what we are currently manifesting! While this may seem jumbled to you, thank you, for providing your view of the path we are all on 🙂

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  3. Amen!

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  4. I agree with SOME of what was shared, but tithing in its current form as instituted in the church is a divine ordinance and we must do all we can to obey to demonstrate our willingness and not see it as a burdon. Poor or wealthy capitolist. There is always more the wealthy can do. Service certainly is an opportunity to grow closer to Christ thus closer to said ‘Zion’ and being a mission president or pulling weeds in an elderly womans yard are both ways to achieve this. I love your blog but when you talk down about things like tithing it gives me an earie feeling. It is a commandment. And you say “it brings blessings” in almost a mocking way. It does. And it will continue to do so. And what of fast offerings? The church does a lot, as well as provide further opportunities to serve. If everybody maximized their callings and went above and beyond to love those theh served and if a bishop was able to fulfill all needs in his ward and all in the ward were always willing to help and serve without dragging their feet and nobody was seeking personal gain etc. I believe this would then like the city of Enoch become a Zion. The problem is us… we the people. We are too comfortable and complacent. We are not progressing and reading and learning. Each ward may have a handful of people on the right track… but we are the biggest issue, not where tithing money goes. I think we need to be careful to not point fingers at the Lords church and realize our fallen state. Would we all awake from the dust and shake off the carnal desires of the flesh surely we would become more likd Christ and all awake one day to find we lived in a Zion community.

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    • Marcus, I want to say that nothing I said was intended to be mocking. Tithing does indeed bring blessings. It is indeed a commandment. Does it need to paid to the Church? Maybe. Possibly, if the Lord tells you to, do such a thing, but it won’t bring Zion. It may bring blessings for being obedient to what you feel is a divine commandment. In my family, tithing is being allocated to individuals who are in need. In that the Lord has commanded such a thing and I feel blessed for it. In that way it is the true prototype for Zion. It cannot be done hierarchical, IMO. It cannot be done top-down. It has to be done bottom-up, where each of us answer only to the Lord.

      I personally believe that the Church has violated the true context of Malachi 3:8-9 so God has released me from being bound by it. He may not release you, but that is between you and the Lord.

      “Behold, will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.” Who are the “ye here? The directive is to the Priests of the Temple, the leaders, NOT the lay members who have given of their tithes. The entire context of Malachi is helpful here. The priests are in apostasy, and this is one of the things they are doing which is further accelerating the Jewish apostasy in those days.

      “Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.” This is a warning unto those that give AND receive for robbing God. We are all under the commandment to give tithes and if we deal with tithing poorly on either end, we are under a curse. The fact that we do NOT have Zion shows me that our world in these days, our Church, is also under this same curse.

      Now what are tithes for?

      “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.”

      Tithes are for the storehouse, for the meat of mine house. What is mine house? Is it operational expenses, salaries, and the such. No . . . that is what the priests and Jews are being cursed for doing. Mine house is the church, lower c, for the people of the church who are poor, the meat is for them. The blessings of heaven, the grace of God, the culmination of true repentance, are the blessings of heaven that are promised here as people begin to act in a Zion-like fashion.

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      • So we should all ask for The Lord’s direction, and we should all give how, and when, and to whom (or to what) He directs?

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        • For me that is how it has worked. I had been praying to know how to donate my tithes for the past few months. The Lord provided me with an opportunity to support a woman who is going through a divorce, so that’s what I’m doing at this point. The opportunity fell into my lap, and it is an opportunity. I have felt so blessed since our family has been helping her.

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        • Thank you.

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  5. Tim talked about how a church cannot bring about Zion. Can a group of people bring about Zion? Can anyone bring about Zion or is it God alone that can do so?

    This topic is so interesting to me. Tim mentioned about how “being right” or the need to be right can hinder people from becoming a Zion people. So is It about becoming unified in how we behave towards one another? Could any Christian church, despite their different dogmas and beliefs about all the different things, become Zion if they only unified and cared for one another and took upon themselves each other’s burdens? I see more and more people saying our beliefs don’t really matter, and that we should avoid some topics that we know no one can agree upon. Is this the key? Don’t worry about what others in the community believe, or how they worship, but just live like we are all family? Seems possible. If that is the case does it even matter if someone is Christian or not to be able to be a member of Zion?

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    • I believe as we get to know the Lord, we will all come unto a unity of the faith. If we can just agree on the simple and key doctrine of Christ, as explained in the Book of Mormon, and talk not of the tenants, we may be able to achieve this. Until then, we get caught up in debating whether we should be living the Law of Moses, or living plural marriage, or worshiping Heavenly Mother, we’re going to get sidetracked.

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      • First off, sorry I thought Tim wrote this OP. I noticed you started your comment with the words.. “I believe.” So that is a personal tenet of yours.
        Others believe that in order to know The Lord, to come in the unity of faith, we have to worship Heavenly Mother, or live polygamy, or whatever others may believe.
        Some people believe capitalism is the way of God. Others believe socialism is closer to the true order of God. So I believe that in order to become of one mind, the mind has to believe a lot of the same beliefs, or else the hearts will all be set on different beliefs, and there could only be an outward form of Zion with smiles and kind deeds, but we know the wicked salute the wicked in their own little model of Zion built upon their own beliefs…
        There have been secret combinations where people are very loyal and help each other and call each other family and believe they are righteous while being whited sepulchers. It is interesting to think about. The only thing to unite people truly is what their beliefs are. Look up the gang of Latin kings it is an interesting study. They have created their own little kingdom.

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  6. Adding this to my “Favorites” folder in 3…2…1…

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  7. A couple of corrections perhaps to promote true understanding. First of all tithing is not a commandment, it is a law. We do not have Levites to take care of that have no land. We don’t pay of our increase every three years as the Israelites did. We don’t need to pay for general authorities that do not earn a living with their own hands as King Benjamin suggested.

    Next, Adam Smith taught that whatever is good for the individual is good for the masses, if you understand the concept of trade. This country has had capitalism for over 250 years. Alexander de Toqueville noticed the richness of the farms and beauty derived for the average man when he came from France to visit in the 18th century.

    Now all the people born into this country in those 250 years will be judged on how they used those resources they were able to acquire. That was the standard, living in the promised land. You can bash the wealth that this fair land has given up if you please, but that is our journey. We agreed to be here during a time of prosperity. It is what we do with it that will make our being. Wealth itself is not to be feared. Benjamin Franklin said: “If all but myself were blind, I should want neither fine clothes, fine houses nor fine furniture.”. Since capitalism is our journey to gain experiences necessary for our advancement, let us use it by the Spirit until we are forced or led out of its method and form.

    The poor cannot feed the poor. Gather virtues and extend them into the use of the resources you acquire. When things transition during Jacob’s tribulation, you will then be judged in the economic process then in place. When you can identify Zion, you may be surprised that you know nothing about the economic engine it produces. The Mentinah Archives explain the way they lived the law of common consent, but that was for them and their experience. Your experience is here and now. Do the best you can and have joy in doing.much with what you are given.

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  8. So we can consecrate all our surplus unto the Lord if we feel led to do so, and we should give it (or at least 10% of our surplus) how (and to whom, or to what) we feel led?

    I was just visiting this web site.

    http://ldscharities.org/?lang=eng

    It seems to me (at the moment) that it might do the most good someplace like this, but there are people here in the states who are asking for funds, and I suppose we should all ask the Lord how and where to give?

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    • To clarify what the church uses tithing for: In Canada, 70% of all tithing goes to all the LDS schools, BYU, BYU Idaho and BYU Hawaii. Methodists give about 35% of their donations to charity. The church is barely over 1% of funds going to the poor. We advertise how wonderful we are often, but the percentage of funds going to the poor is barely enough to shake a stick. Now our volume is high, therefore if you think tithing should go to other things, that is fine. But there are Ethiopian Saints malnourished and in bad health for example. That is why I give direct to the Liahona Children’s fund. I then can be sure that what I give will take care of the poor. Just a thought.

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      • That is why I give direct to the Liahona Children’s fund. I then can be sure that what I give will take care of the poor.

        Do they have a web site?

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        • http://www.liahonachildren.org/#/home or liahonachildrensfoundation.org

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        • Thank you.

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      • sfort,

        You’re not the first person to say this. What are your referances?

        Thanks!

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        • The church has to disclose in Canada what the donations go to. U.S. isn’t so detailed. I have a link to this I will dig up. Quite revealing. It really does piss of the Canadian aints when the wealthy get subsidized to go to school. When the tithes and offerings do not stay local, it breeds distrust, period. There has been reports out of D.C. stating the amount of funds going to the poor is estimated. Since the church seems to hide their counsels, we really don’t know as a people, we can only assume. I am not much for assumptions. Transparency seems to have fled.

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  9. MinorityofOne …

    May we dance?

    I genuinely pray that the fruit of this exchange is charity!

    In my experience, I’m not so convinced of / in beLIEfS.

    What if “Zion” is the culmination of both Heaven bending (grace) and Mortality reaching (manifested behaviors… or congruency of our multi-dimensional experience)?

    What is there truly isn’t “us” and “them”?

    What if our contrived “reality tunnel,” as Robert Anton Wilson hypothesized, is simply eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (some may “label” duality), and doesn’t really represent “truth” or “reality” or “things as they really are”?

    What if God realized, Zion manifested, is simply standing as a completely congruent conduit of Heaven manifested in mortality where we “see” as we are seen, and manifest or create accordingly?

    What if there were no “other” and in truly looking into the eyes of another “creation” (oops, I mean another person) we recognized that we were simply revealing more of ourselves to ourselves, that the judgment (if any) was our own, and that we could, even if “by faith,” fully release the love, charity and created / creative forces of eternity to “dress” THE garden?

    What if the egoic qualities and attributes of our fallen lower selves … the energies of contending, comparing, competing, confronting and controlling … were place in subjection of the higher qualities and attributes of our soul, and even our spirit … compassion, creativity, connectedness, calm … charity?

    I truly understand grace, I have been the recipient on so many occasions. AND where are those willing to step into their heart, step into truth, live and manifest a congruence of what Heaven has placed within them?

    There are so many back and forth exchanges of scriptures, dogmas, beliefs … as we label them…

    Each of us play such a vital, even important role, may we play our song … and play it LOUD!

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    • Nice bit of thinking

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    • Nathan

      Brilliant questions. I think often along the lines of exactly what you are suggesting. I believe their are many realms and we choose by where we set our hearts which realm we will go to. You speak something of the idea of the sea of souls or the doctrine of emanations. I think often on these things. My questions are not always correlating with exactly what I believe in, but things I ponder on.
      What you are suggesting falls right along the lines of Buddhism which is really cool. Here is the evidence I am working with against the theory. Every person that I know personally that has received the Holy Ghost (as far as I can tell through the times we have been edified, through hearing of their experience etc.) who knows how to ask and receive answers from God by the power of the Holy Ghost, always receive the same answers I do when we ask God yes or no questions.
      A good friend (who has posted here a lot) and I took a list of questions that we did not have the answers to, we took these questions to The Lord separately, with no preconceived notions of how The Lord would respond, and we came back and compared answers and we received the exact same answers from God.
      I have seen “leaders” in the LDS church who I have asked to pray about certain things, who were absolutely positive they would get certain answers, who came away with extreme cognitive dissonance because they did not get the answers that correlated with their “testimonies.”
      By the way for everyone’s amusement here I will post just a few questions that my friend and I asked.

      Does denver Snuffer have the fulness of the aaronic priesthood? Answer we got: yes

      Does Denver Snuffer have the fulness of the Melchizedek priesthood? Answer we got: No

      Does Denver Snuffer believe he is the mighty and strong one? Answer we got: yes

      Is Denver Snuffer the mighty and strong one? Answer we got: No

      These are a few we received and we have done this many times. Of course there are explanations to this but it is certainly evidence in my opinion that there is some sort of objective truth. I really believe if we ask God yes or no questions, and wait for a yes or no by the power or the Holy Ghost, and settle for nothing less, we will always get the same answer.
      These are some of the reasons that I believe there really could be, and fact is an objective reality. BUT I do believe we can become a law unto ourselves (to use some common lingo) and build our own Tower of Babel with a group of people. I say that because if people truly understood the Tower of Babel, where they had made a name for themselves, and nothing they proposed to do would be withheld, they would understand exactly what you said in the above comment of bending reality etc.
      This is the question, in all of these realities of forms, these constructs of consciousness, these nesting a within nestings (I have a feeling you will know what I am talking about here) will they hold up, if they are not built upon the Truth of Christ. I happen to believe that Jesus and Mary were the highest two intelligences, with the highest frequencies of love and goodness that have come to the earth, and therefore the reality that they projected, will eventually destroy, or absorb all other realities. It is the highest law which wins out in the end, and how can we become one with that law? By the grace that you yourself have received, and then adding grace for grace, line upon line, asking and receiving and incorporating more Truth into our souls until we are one with that law. Anyway I am rambling. I loved your comment and I am no stranger to the concept. I believe in simultaneous lives. I know something of how souls (higher selves) operate and it is mind blowing to think about. I agree completely that it is imperative to accept, and extend the higher frequencies to progress to higher states of consciousness. I just am not to the point of fully accepting the idea of relative truth. Hope this comment makes sense. I always enjoy your thoughts.

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      • I happen to believe that Jesus and Mary were the highest two intelligences, with the highest frequencies of love and goodness that have come to the earth

        So do I.

        and therefore the reality that they projected, will eventually destroy, or absorb all other realities.

        I think I understand what you mean by their realities absorbing our realities–we become more like them as we incorporate more Truth into our souls, right?

        But what do you mean by “destroy”?

        Do you believe anyone or anything ever actually ceases to exist?

        Do you think any souls are ever actually be destroyed?

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        • I believe light cannot be destroyed, but some beings survive purely by taking light from others, and they have no inherent light within themselves that make up an entity that they identify with. If the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness! Isn’t that a weird saying?
          So if all the light is that holds a being together is taken from others, and all that remains is a tabernacle if that light is taken back by God, and then the tabernacle itself is transit bed into the Source of intelligence, then that former entity/archon/counterfeit spirit/demon or whatever name we give it (so many names have been given) then I would call that destruction, or perdition. But in a sense darkness is just the absence of light so that is why in some traditions they have been called “soulless ones.” Fascinating subject.
          As far as the kingdoms being “destroyed,” I believe the reality or kingdom that people have created in lower realms must be broken down at some point, and the energy transferred into a higher kingdom. It is all cycles of creation and destruction until we reach the eternal realms of form. Buddhists talk about samsara and the cycles of suffering that we are in right now. Jesus called it the deaths etc. so what will set us free from having to continually return to the deaths? Well Jesus said it was the truth. So if people say beliefs don’t really matter, and yet the truth will set us free, I don’t see how that coincides really. Love is actually only a biproduct of truth and light. So we can act loving, we can avoid disagreement by not talking about it, but that is not what will ultimately bring at-one-ment. There has to be a foundation of Truth. And Truth can only be given by learning line upon line, one truth at a time. It can’t be done any other way. Sometimes lots of truths can be given one after another very rapidly but it is never a “hey swallow this religion pill, accept all this scripture, or accept what this prophet says, and you have the fulness or truth,” in my opinion:)

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        • Thank you.

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      • Every person that I know personally that has received the Holy Ghost (as far as I can tell through the times we have been edified, through hearing of their experience etc.) who knows how to ask and receive answers from God by the power of the Holy Ghost, always receive the same answers I do when we ask God yes or no questions.

        So it’s okay to share experiences and compare notes?

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        • Well at least for some people it seems so:) I have never found a reason to be offended when someone shares revelation, even if it is something that seems outlandish to my puny brain at first. What do you think?
          I guess the trick might be learning to compare notes with absolutely no judgment, no attachment to whether the other person agrees, and no contention. I really like this quote. I am far from perfect in this of course.

          “In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.”

          He also said this supposedly, which is interesting.

          “With fools, there is no companionship. Rather than to live with men who are selfish, vain, quarrelsome, and obstinate, let a man walk alone.”
          – Siddhartha

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        • I felt an inexplicable feeling of inner calm and peace at a time when I should have been falling to pieces, and I believe that was heaven comforting and strengthening me at a time when I really needed it, but I wouldn’t describe it in the physical terms, the way I’ve seen others describe their experiences.

          I felt warm in the sense of feeling secure secure, and comfortable, and at peace (with myself, and the universe), but there was no heat.

          How does that compare with your experience?

          And do you think those who use different language are really describing something different?

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      • “Does Denver Snuffer have the fulness of the Melchizedek priesthood? Answer we got: No”

        Since the second comforter come AFTER calling and election, and since Denver Snuffer claims to have had the second comforter, he is claiming that he has had his and election.

        Is it impossible to receive calling and election without getting the fulness of the priesthood?

        I doubt it.

        Hence, that would mean that DS has not had his calling and election and therefore, he has not received the Second Comforter.

        That would mean he is either deceived by a seducing spirit or intentionally lying.

        Which begs the question, did you and your friend ask if Denver has really received the second comforter?

        If so, did you also get a no on that one?

        You don’t need to answer.. I am just thinking out loud and trying to follow your answers to their ultimate deduction.

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        • It depends what you mean by calling and election. Is it possible to receive the promise of exaltation without receiving a fulness of the Melchizedek priesthood by revelation from God? Absolutely it is. Many many people have received this.
          To actually BE redeemed and have this made sure like the brother of Jared and overcome the elements of the flesh, have the gift that God will grant every request, even to the moving of mountains, raising the dead, or whatever else the mind of God will direct one to do, totally different than just receiving the promise. One literally represents Christ at that point, is given His name, and redemption is no longer a promise, it is a reality that has happened. You have entered the Lords rest where there is no sin, no fallen state, and you are one of the people of Enoch etc. has denver received this? Good question.
          If Denver said to a mountain “move,” would the mountain move? Just some thoughts.

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      • Truth may be relative, because it is how we assimilate it that makes the difference. What mortal brain can understand absolute truth? It has to be relative until we have frequencies that cope with absolute truth that is pure energy made up of light. Just a thought from enlightened ones.

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        • I agree. That is why I have been saying for so long that all of these people who have claimed a fulness of the priesthood, from joseph smith down to Chris nemelka and whoever, are claiming something that isn’t true. A being to know and understand Christ, and the Truth that goes along with Christ, would need to literally be raised on frequency to match the glory of Christ. Then nothing could be withheld and we are talking absolute truth. A lot of people have been shown great visions in spirit. This fallen tabernacle needs to be changed in order to retain and comprehend the truths of the spirit, otherwise it would overload the mortal brain and we would be left as vegetables. That is why the slow assimilation of truth by the power of the Holy Ghost is the only way we ascend. I am not claiming to have a fulness, or a comprehension of all truth. I am not a in a translated state. I just think it might be worth pointing out that no one else is either. I believe Buddha and Jesus, Enoch and the bro, of Jared and some few others reached the state of redemption and overcame mortality. When Buddha was enlightened people thought he was either a god or a demon because of his countenance. Pilate I believe was the one who left a description of Jesus and said he had the appearance as of a son of a god. Sorry I just don’t believe anyone alive right now has such a countenance. I hope someone is redeemed soon because that would mean the opening of a new era on the earth. When/if it happens thjngs are going to change real quick.

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        • Do you believe the three Nephites, and John the Beloved received the fulness of the priesthood, or were they at a lesser state than Jesus, Enoch, and the brother of Jared? This is not meant as a challenge to your beliefs in any way. I’m just trying to understand what you believe.

          If someone were visited by a translated being, I suppose that from your view it could not be someone from this modern era, but from a much earlier time, such as from Enoch’s people, or the Nephites etc? I wonder though if some modern people may have received the fulness, but were then hidden from the world, like John and the three Nephites, until the Lord is ready to make bare His arm in the eyes of the world, or in other words until the appearance of the One Mighty and Strong, aka “my [the Lord’s] servant” (of 3 Nephi ch 20, 21). Do you think there might be holy men that we know not of who have received the fulness of the priesthood but remain hidden until the fulness is to be revealed to the world, and some of those might have received this fulness recently? Or at least between the time of Christ and present day?

          Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

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  10. I believe your experience is real and light and good.
    What you are describing I might call the spirit of life. It is like being centered and still and you have found the peace and tranquility, calm within yourself.
    I do believe that what other people describe can be very different. There is a literal power that can flow inwardly through us and the first time people experience it their life is completely different because they KNOW beyond any doubt that there is a higher power, a totally different spiritual reality that transcends everything here on the earth.
    This power will start at one point in the body and move through and change every part or the body. You can feel where it is at whether it is in your head and then moves down to the toes or down through the arms you can feel exactly where this power is. The first time I felt it I thought everyone in the room must be feeling it and God was in the room. I looked around and wondered how such power could be in me and no one else could be feeling something.
    I have posted this experience from someone else before but I will again in case you haven’t read about it. I would much rather use others descriptions than my own. This is what I would call the Holy Ghost, what this person experienced and felt he had to share. Many of the people who commented on this seem to have experienced it before. Personally, I believe this is the only way to receive pure revelation on any subject, although the peace, light, walking in meekness and love is something that we can learn to have with us all the time, and can act as a guide because when we do something that causes a loss of that light we know we need to do something to get back in tune.

    http://www.spiritual-experiences.com/real-spiritual-story.php?story=220

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    • Thank you.

      I found this interesting, but I can’t say I’ve ever experienced it myself (and if it’s meant to be used as a guide, it seems strange that it should have happened at St. Patrick’s Cathedral.)

      I went to St Patrick’s Cathedral, which was only a few blocks from the apartment we were living. I would walk around admiring this tranquil masterpiece in the middle of New York Cities pulsating spirit. I would go to the head of the church (behind the main alter) where I would pray with others at the shrine of Mary. On the fourth or fifth consecutive day of going to St Patrick’s, I entered one of the pews on the north side of the church. While mass was going on I knelt down and began to pray. After I finished my initial prayers, I began to talk to God. No not one of those two way conversations that some people would certify me as psychologically “nuts” just those kind of thoughts about things we need help with or hope for in order to make ourselves and the world a better place. At one point in this prayer/meditation, I simply said, “God, I can’t do this anymore. I can’t make any more decisions. I give up! I put my life in your hands.” I wish I could explain this in better detail. Over the last twelve years I’ve never been able to find the words to communicate the physical and mental experience, which happened after I let go. Upon letting go, there was a bolt of energy, which began at my toes and rifled upward throughout my body. It exploded out the top of my head like a bolt of lighting. As this “energy” traveled upward it was like every cell in my body was energized. The best I can explain it was like the pins and needles one gets, but this was far from being uncomfortable. The experience lasted probably only a second or two, but after it left my body I was left with this euphoria. Almost feeling like I was floating. Every pain, every frustration, every mental disparity I had been carrying with me, had been ripped from my being at the singular moment. As I left the church, I had a feeling of clarity, focus, and comfort. All my hate, all my anger, all my desperation was replaced with happiness, love, and sense of hope. Within two years of this moment, my life had been given the love of my wife and a year later the first of three children. As for the work, the business turned around and all those in the initial startup have done well for themselves. My prayers were answered! I wonder has anyone experienced what I felt that day? I’m sure some in the medical community have some neuro/psycho/chemical thing that happened that day… Maybe so/Maybe Not! Regardless… It was amazing!

      I also found this link interesting, but what’s being taught there seems quite different from what’s taught here (or what would be taught at St. Patrick’s.

      http://www.amazingpromise.com/

      This leaves me a little confused.

      Why would God seem to point people in different directions?

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      • Why does it seem odd to you that this experience would have happened at st Patricks cathedral? It was the condition of the persons heart that was important, not what church he was a part of, or what building he was in.

        Also what you attached is cool. I think the person writing it was a little over the top with using certain phrases and all of that, but I don’t know exactly what you were confused with in the article. Do you believe the idea of being saved by grace is wrong? Maybe that is the issue. Sorry it was just such a long article you would have to specify what you didn’t like about it but I appreciate you sharing. The only thing/work someone has to do to be baptized by fire is come down to the depths of humility and offer a contrite heart and broken spirit. That is it. No amount of actions, ordinances, sacrifices or anything else can bring about this change of heart and rebirth. Problem is is that we can’t force ourselves into such a condition. Even a broken heart and contrite spirit = meekness is a gift from God. He leads us to it through the experiences He blesses us with. That in and of itself could be a way long discussion I suppose. That is my understanding anyway

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  11. Even the least,

    I believe definitely the four you mentioned received a fulness. When I said “a few” I was speaking relatively to the many people who have lives on this earth, there have only been a few that have received a fulness. I guess the word “few” was a bad choice. I should have said not very many.
    I do not know that anyone has received it since around the time of Christ. I haven’t asked that particular question though. I believe one literally has to enter the physical presence of The Lord in all of His glory and receive His name. I do have a witness that the mighty and strong one will reach a translated state before his mission begins.
    Btw man I have been thinking every day how to answer your email:) I will get to it… Good questions.

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    • Thanks M, I believe one must be literally and physically caught up into heaven, as were the three Nephites, in order to receive the fulness. I believe one also enters into the presence of the Father at this time. (3 Nephi 28). Having to be “caught up” may chang, though when the millennial temple is built, I don’t know though. I enjoy reading your insights on the subject.

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  12. This blog, and those who believe what is written here, are a perfect example of the prophecy of the very elect being deceived in the latter days. These writings are very deceptive and it would caution you to avoid them like the plague. Read 1 Nephi 15:24 to see how to avoid being blinded by the adversary and falling away from the truth.

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    • 24 And I said unto them that it was the word of God; and whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would never perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead them away to destruction. (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi, 1 Nephi 15)

      Kelly,

      Amen! If we will but choose to listen to the word of God line upon line, receiving revelation directly from God, and ONLY putting our trust in His word, that is truly the way. Be careful though people will try to trick you into thinking that the “word of God” equals books or men, and that we should put our trust in something other than what God speaks to us personally. Thanks brother.

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