Reconnecting to the Fathers


Matt 28:19: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost…”

D&C 20:73 – “Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.”

Mosiah 18:13 – “I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world.”

Baptism of Repentance

jacobs-ladderThe first two scriptures I’ve quoted are performed in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Those who have been endowed and are familiar with the sealing ordinances in the LDS Temples will also recognize the use of the phrase, “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” Few men on earth are authorized to use this phrase today.

At the end of the series of ten lectures delivered by Denver, Keith got up and offered his witness, sealing it in a similar fashion. Surely there must be some significance to this phrase when it is used. It must mean something in heaven. It does. It caused me to sit up and take notice. I knew he was using the sealing power, but not in the same sense it is used in the LDS Temples today.

“I stand as another witness with Denver, in the law of witnesses, that these things are true. And I expect to be held accountable for this in the days and the eternity to come, before God and my Father and to all men. I bear this testimony humbly and solemnly, but in the power of the most holy priesthood. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.”

The Patriarchal Priesthood

abraham-isaac-altarI have been re-reading, studying and praying about the priesthood talk given in Orem back in November of 2013. Its chalk full of information about the higher or patriarchal priesthood. I remain convinced not many people understand there is such a thing. In the LDS Church, we are used to referring only to the Aaronic and the Melchizedek priesthood. It seems there is more.

Yes, I know and have read the arguments that there is but one priesthood and that the patriarchal priesthood is lesser than the Melchizedek. I agree there is really only one priesthood, but within that priesthood, I hold the Patriarchal to be the higher priesthood. I understand it can only be received from the Lord, which is why Joseph was so insistent on completing the Nauvoo temple.

This higher priesthood is not received in the LDS temples. It is not obtained by going and being sealed in the temple. It is only obtained when one meets with God in His temple. That’s why I was not concerned and remain unconcerned about resigning from the LDS Church. The church does not control the priesthood. It is controlled by God, confirmed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

The Holy Spirit of Promise

psalm-2-7I have not yet heard the voice of the Lord say to me, “Thou art my son. This day have I begotten thee.” I know that day will come. The Lord has told me so. It was in a dream but when I asked for the interpretation, it was clear. I rejoice in this promise. I rejoice I have a calling and election. I rejoice in knowing it is what the Lord desires of me. I am working to make it sure. It will be so.

I understand receiving the Lord is an ordinance. I await further light and knowledge on this. I am grateful for the blessing of time. It teaches me patience. I know a man’s life can be snuffed out at any minute. I take my life in my hands each day I drive to and from work on the freeways of Los Angeles. I wait upon the Lord. When He is ready, I will be connected to the powers of heaven.

In the dialog below you will find Denver’s answer to my question about the higher or patriarchal priesthood. He was smiling at me as I read it to him. I think he knew what I was asking. Note the humble response deflecting honor and attention to John the Beloved. There are others as well. I pray the Lord’s blessings upon each of us to connect to the Lord and prepare to live within Zion.

Question Three: In the Phoenix or Mesa lecture (9-9-14), you stated, “The Lord has said to me in His own voice, ‘I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you.’ Therefore, I want to caution those who disagree with me, to feel free, to feel absolutely free to make the case against what I say. Feel free to disagree, and make your contrary arguments. If you believe I err, then expose the error and denounce it. But take care; take care about what you say concerning me for your sake, not for mine. I live with constant criticism. I can take it. But I do not want you provoking Divine ire by unfortunately chosen words if I can persuade you against it.”

In Genesis 12:3, The Lord said unto Abraham, “I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee.” Abraham was further blessed to be the father of many nations, that in him “shall all families of the earth be blessed.” Abraham was a prophet. Isaac and Jacob were prophets. Abraham referred to the Fathers going back to Adam. You spoke about that in the talk on plural marriage and elsewhere. It seems there is something significant about connecting to the Fathers. Abraham was a patriarch. The LDS Church no longer has a presiding patriarch, or even such an office. Is there a patriarch on the earth today who can connect us to the Fathers?

ANSWER (Denver): Well, the simple answer is there’s always one on the earth. That has been true from Adam to the present.

(Tim): John the Beloved.

(Denver): Yes.

nauvoo-1844Remember that in Nauvoo the Lord had offered to reconnect the Saints, with the clearly defined condition that for that to happen it was necessary for an acceptable temple to be constructed where He could come and restore the connection. The reconnection is ordinance-based, and will require an acceptable temple before it goes beyond the single representative.

First, ideas need to be advanced and accepted. Then second, we need to act on the ideas primarily by repenting and opening ourselves to the influence of God. Third, we have to be humble and patient and willing to practice the religion before we can have any hope of God deciding to gather us.

Practical experience is absolutely necessary. Theories and pretensions are not going to get us anywhere. The gospel requires hard won virtuous experience and not just theoretical or imaginary virtues. Everyone can theorize the virtues that are necessary to gather people together and live together in harmony. Everyone can envision themselves as one of the residents of the City of Peace. But the practical experience required to iron out our selfishness and competitiveness so that we can actually live in peace is another order of magnitude harder.

In the Nauvoo City Council minutes you see them grappling with a society that is trying to be composed of Saints, and the practical problem-solving that happened. There were moments when I was reading the Nauvoo City Council minutes when I was laughing out loud, because they go to solve one problem but the solution creates another.

Basically people are discourteous of one another. Because they are discourteous of one another the City Council adopted an ordinance in order to end one discourtesy, only to create yet another discourtesy on top of that.

Practicing Zion in Nauvoo

zion-imageFor example, one of the problems that they had was that Nauvoo was organized as a city in which everyone had a garden plot. Because most of the garden plots were not fenced, horses and foot traffic would go through the gardens. That killed the plants and caused the destruction of needed foodstuffs. They couldn’t get people to build fences around their gardens despite encouraging them to do so. The solution to the problem to was to turn the hogs loose, because when the hogs are loose they go in the gardens and root around, killing the plantings. And so they adopted an ordinance that let hogs in Nauvoo go free. In pretty short order that produced the required fences they wanted, at the expense of creating a hog problem. There were hog wallows in the middle of the streets of Nauvoo. Until finally some guy, tired of the hog problem, went out and killed, butchered and ate a couple hogs that another guy said belong to him. The owner sued him, and they had the public fight over it.

The point of this isn’t hogs and the Nauvoo City Council, the point of this is we need practical experience and not theory. The way in which the practical experience can be had is in gathering in fellowships and societies, collecting our own tithing, and then grappling with the fact that there is a pile of money sitting there, which is ever a temptation, and to deal with that in a responsible way. That forces individuals to confront their own self will, their own pride, their own desires, their own jealousy, their own envy, their own ambition, and their own covetousness.

Practicing Zion in Fellowships

CityOfZionIn the fellowships that have been organized there have been moments of profound breakthroughs in the kind of attributes required for Zion. One group, when they begin their meeting, gathers all the needs on written slips of paper and put all of the needs together in an unopened basket. Then they gather the money, which is always cash, into another unopened container. They don’t know how much cash there is. Without opening the cash then, they first open the needs. As a group they reason together and agree on what the priority of the needs are, so that they have a list of the most compelling, and on down.

Once they know what the most compelling, the second, the third, the fourth are, they open and count the money. On one occasion, there was a married couple whose need could be satisfied because there was enough money, but they looked at the person next in line in priority behind them, and concluded that in their heart, they thought that need greater than their own. If they satisfy the next person’s need, there would be nothing left for them. So they voluntarily passed on their priority and took none of the money, and allowed it all to go to the next person in line behind them.

That is a couple that I would willingly add to a community, because they’ve learned self-sacrifice. They are no threat, and are instead an ideal contributor.

Seek to Benefit and Bless Others

Someone who advocates incessantly, “We’ve got the live the United Order! We’ve got to have consecration,” –because he intends to benefit from that change and better his circumstances—is unfit to be gathered. He would destroy Zion because he is selfish and thinking of what he can gain. Someone who says, “What can I give?” at the cost of his own self-sacrifice, and yet is willing to live the Law of Consecration in order to bless and benefit others, not expecting themselves to be blessed or benefited but instead expect themselves to carry a burden, those people can be gathered. They present no threat. They can be “one” with others. They are willing to lose themselves, as Christ instructed.

The way in which those people get identified is by practical experience, which is what the fellowshipping communities are designed, by the inspiration of God, to allow to now begin to take place. Every one of us theorizes themselves a great candidate for Zion. But go out and get some practical experience and see how great a candidate you truly are. You will be disappointed in yourself. Most of us would be anyway.

Sources:

Transcript One: http://3tcm.net/a-visit-with-denver-snuffer-transcript.pdf
Note: This version has been reviewed by Denver, missing material added

Transcript Two: http://3tcm.net/tim-malone-Q&A-with-denver-snuffer.pdf

Link to the MP3: http://3tcm.net/Denver_Snuffer_QA_13May2015.mp3
Note: The file is 60MB. It’s best to right-click on the link to download it.

Link to a PDF of answer to question three: http://3tcm.net/question-three.pdf

5 Responses

  1. The way to practical experience:

    JST Luke 6
    20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed are the poor; for theirs is the kingdom of God.

    21 Blessed are they who hunger now; for they shall be filled. Blessed are they who weep now; for they shall laugh.

    22 Blessed are ye when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from among them, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of Man’s sake.

    23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy; for behold your reward shall be great in heaven; for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

    24 But woe unto you that are rich! For ye have received your consolation.

    25 Woe unto you who are full! For ye shall hunger. Woe unto you who laugh now! For ye shall mourn and weep.

    26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak will of you! For so did their fathers to the false prophets.

    27 But I say unto you who hear my words, Love your enemies, do good to them who hate you.

    28 Bless them who curse you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you.

    29 And unto him who smiteth thee on the cheek, offer also the other; or, in other words, it is better to offer the other, than to revile again. And him who taketh away thy cloak, forbid not to take thy coat also.

    30 For it is better that thou suffer thine enemy to take these things, than to contend with him. Verily I say unto you, Your heavenly Father who seeth in secret, shall bring that wicked one into judgment.

    31 Therefore give to every man who asketh of thee; and of him who taketh away thy goods, ask them not again.

    32 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

    33 For if ye love them only who love you, what reward have you? For sinners also do even the same.

    34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what reward have you? For sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

    35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great; and ye shall be the children of the Highest; for he is kind unto the unthankful, and to the evil.

    36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

    37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged; condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned; forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.

    38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal, it shall be measured to you again.

    39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? Shall they not both fall into the ditch?

    40 A disciple is not above his master; but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

    41 And why beholdest thou the mote which is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam which is in thine own eye?

    42 Again, how canst thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam which is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote which is in thy brother’s eye.

    43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit;

    44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

    45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart, bringeth forth that which is good. And an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart, bringeth forth that which is evil; for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

    46 And why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

    47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like.

    48 He is like a man who built a house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock, and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it; for it was founded upon a rock.

    49 But he who heareth and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built a house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

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  2. Tim,

    Correct me if I misunderstood anything. You are saying there is a higher priesthood than the Melchizedek priesthood and that few people on the earth have it. According to denver from one lecture someone has to do one of these things in order to have the Melchizedek priesthood even,

    -to break mountains,
    -divide the seas,
    -to dry up waters,
    -to turn waters out of their course,
    -to put at defiance the armies of nations,
    -divide the earth,
    -break every band,
    -and stand in the presence of God.

    So I assume denver believes he and other people have the Melchizedek priesthood. I would also assume the only thing on this list denver or others could claim is that they have stood in the presence of God. So the only one that Denver could claim just happens to be the only one that cannot be verified by anyone else. Also I know a lot of people that have stood in the presence of God, also I have read of many many others besides those I personally know that claim to have stood in the presence of God. Do they all have the Melchizedek priesthood? Does every woman and child who has had a near death experience and stood in the presence of God have the Melchizedek priesthood? And if there is a higher priesthood I could only imagine what powers would be exhibited. That is a beautiful idea.

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    • Mi-yo-1,

      There is a bit of a “discussion” about priesthoods (for example, Toscano’s book “The Serpent & the Dove: Messianic Mysteries of the Mormon Temple”), there “rank” and accompanying “signs and wonders”. It is interesting, the push and rush to “receive” such accolades, without the accompanying service, sacrifice and submission to the path.

      The longer I walk, the more I am convinced that real priesthood occurs when those in mortality (at varying degrees and capacities) sincerely seek to serve, elevate and exalt OTHERS. It is in the developing capacity that the Powers of Heaven take notice and reciprocate this experience by reaching (grace) and intervening in the lives of these individuals, working to bring them into the presence of Deity, not for some eternal “high five,” but to endow them with such knowledge, wisdom and developed capacities to then return and lower themselves more, serve more, and elevate more (ie. with the ability, power and capacity to bind such “experiences” of service throughout eternity).

      Does Christ really walk around in a white shirt and name badge, discussing his level of priesthood? Does the “Sun” ever rely on our ability to notice its “glory” or “brightness” to then provide its life giving warmth, light and energy? Truly, that is why he IS the Christ!

      As this message is for not for anyone but myself, I’m convinced that I would have significantly more interaction with The Powers of Heaven as I approach my fellow man in service; seeking to feed, clothe, shelter, elevate, exalt (through the eternities), and encourage, rather than expecting Heaven to cooperatively assist me to cover my sins or to gratify my pride.

      It is truly interesting that our collective focus tends to be on “signs and wonders,” “divisions” of “priesthood,” and our most recent “encounter” with Heaven (which, of all things is typically revelation that the receiver is absolutely true and correct, and that it is their mission to let everyone else know not only how wrong they are, but that they should repent and follow the receivers admonition). Very curious indeed.

      I’m surprised that we don’t hear more often of individuals encountering Deity, and the Powers of Heaven, and returning with messages such as, “I was told to “sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me” or simply going about “doing” good, manifesting THE power, truth and love of God, without recognition or seeking the honors of (any) men.

      I could go a little deeper, as in the past week I have experienced a somewhat of a “pulling back of my own curtain (or illusion),” speaking in a yellow brick, OZ kind of way. Again, so interesting. Its almost like the way our very own eyes work, not seeing things as they really are, but backwards, upside – down. Gratitude that Heaven graciously allows us both the ability to walk all of our chosen illusions, but then allows an occasional parting of the veil, to which we can observe our own folly.

      It is my own heart that must change 🙂 All good!

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      • I agree completely with that. I happen to believe most people on earth that have received the “Melchizedek priesthood” don’t ever even know they have it and don’t care to know because they are so wrapped up in serving their fellow men and God and they do not care to advertise where they wrested the keys from or hinting at experiences they think they have enjoyed that others haven’t. The truth is the keys don’t have to be wrested from anywhere in my opinion. They are already within us and many are used by individuals without them even knowing it.
        There have been people in Buddhist monasteries that have attained keys and gifts I am sure that no Mormon has ever received. I just think all of the talk about who has what is interesting. People can talk all they want about having power but until it is manifest then they actually don’t have power. Unless that is they are hiding it under a bushel and it is used for their own edification and to consume it on their own lusts. Right? I mean what good is power or rank if nothing is being done with it. We can talk about followers and numbers but that can be found in all sorts of cults and groups and so it really means nothing. If we are talking about the power to move mountains, and even greater which Tim is talking about in a higher priesthood, then what has the power been used for? Anyway thanks for your comment I agree it must be sought after individually and I have a lot to do myself, or rather a lot to plead with God about in hopes that God will bestow more grace.

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      • Nathan,

        That was beautiful. I agree and feel its more about our hearts changing and being connected with the Mind and Heart of Christ that transforms us. When we begin seeing others as Christ does, and looking to lift others, to comfort, to mourn with those that mourn, to bind up wounds, and to encourage others to continue even when they have given up on themselves is when we become like Christ.

        I feel if we are just looking to exalt ourselves and get some priesthood or power and authority as we suppose then we miss some of the Mark. I personally want to “get there” because I now realize how I am connected to all those I love, and I need to “connect” with the Powers of Heaven in order to bless my family and my friends that are in fact family too. If I connect they can too, and I can bless others, and my heart can grow into all eternity.

        Keep the faith brother, and you are always welcome in our home.

        Bro B

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