Reorganizing the Family of God


the-divine-councilIn the Boise rescue, Elder Oaks spoke much of the temples as evidence of the fruits of the LDS Church. They are beautiful buildings aren’t they? So many resources are poured into these edifices. As President Hinckley once taught, the buildings of the church are not income producing, and constitute a major expense. A lot of tithing money goes into maintaining these buildings, including the wards and stakes.

For over forty years I went to the temple on a regular basis. I went there with thousands of family names my mother had gleaned from years and years of family history work. I performed countless baptisms, inititories, endowments and sealings. I am not alone in my participation in temple work. The focus was always on doing something – proxy ordinances – for family members they could not do for themselves.

While studying the early history of the LDS Church, I noticed a major adjustment in my thinking about the purpose of the temples. I kept wondering about the idea of being “sealed to the fathers.” More and more I found I was contemplating exactly who the fathers were or are. Even after a lifetime of family history research, members of our family could never find family records back any earlier than 1650.

Salvation, Resurrection and Exaltation

CityOfZionI am fairly certain there are some individuals who have been able to trace their family history back to the earliest known records of civilization. I believe I even recall someone telling me they found proof they were related to an individual named in the Bible and could therefore trace their lineage back to Adam. I suppose that’s the ultimate goal of family history research, to find every single ancestor back to Adam.

Growing up in the church I recall being taught we will not be able to complete the family history work that needs to be done because the records are lost. The Millennium is the time when all this work will be completed, because family members will come to those who are living, tell us who they are, when and where they lived and accompany us to the temple while we perform those saving ordinances for them.

Eventually, by the end of the Millennium, everyone will be found, everyone will be sealed and everyone will be joined to the fathers. The objective of life, as I have been taught and believe, is to prepare for a glorious resurrection. That’s individual salvation. But what about exaltation? That only comes about when we are organized by God into His family and participate in ordinances not found in LDS Temples.

Set in Order the House of God

zion-city-of-enochWe need a temple to which Christ can come and reorganize the family of God through an ordinance that seals us to the fathers. As I have written previously on this blog, I hope to be alive when that temple will be built. I hope to contribute to the building of that temple, either financially or with my labor. I want my name to be on the books to be found in that temple. I am grateful to Keith for compiling those records.

Eventually, someone will come along, and “…set in order the house of God, and arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God.” This is found in the last part of D&C 85:7. I have no idea who this person is, but I want my name available to him on the books that are to be found in the temple.

Because “… they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, but they shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among the unbelievers, where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. These things I say not of myself; therefore, as the Lord speaketh, he will also fulfill.” That promise is found in later verses of the same section (D&C 85:9-10).

Why Christ Will Come to His Temple

Question Six: You proclaimed Jesus Christ has revealed Himself to you. You declared you have seen Him, embraced Him and have been given specific assignments of things to teach, which you have done at your own expense in publications and lectures. The focus of these teachings is the establishment of Zion. You have counseled those who wish to prepare for Zion to institute fellowships for gathering and practicing the principles of Zion, specifically to use tithing as a means to help the poor. You have taught there is to be no new church, no legal entity to receive and centrally manage funds and property, yet you acknowledge the need for a temple.

A new website has been established for a central recorder, where those who have been baptized are encouraged to submit their names. The purpose of this gathering of names is to present them to the Lord in a temple. You said in Mesa, “We do not need numerous temples, but we will need one to which Christ can come. We will not need to perform endless work for the dead until first there has been a covenant made for us. We must be first connected to the fathers in heaven. Only then can we do something to liberate the dead.” You have already taught much on the sealing to the fathers, but will you take a moment to elaborate on the difference between the visit of Christ to an individual and the visit of Christ to a temple yet to be built?

ANSWER (Denver): Yes, I can. Individual salvation and promises of eternal life are just that, they are individual. A restoration of the family of Israel requires more, including cooperation and interrelationships that will be formed by God Himself. Promises made to individuals give the individual hope. If you take the vision of the redemption of the dead in D&C 138, he saw a vision where:christ-in-spirit-world

There were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality; And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name. All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ. (D&C 138:12-14, emphasis added.)

All of them. These were the righteous. They were in Paradise and all of them were worthy, they had been given hope of a glorious resurrection. Not only did the Savior give them hope before death, He visited with them in the spirit world during the time between His death and His resurrection. But that did not get them reconnected to the fathers in heaven, nor did it even get them resurrected, because it goes on to say in the transcript of the same vision:

…from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. (D&C138:30, emphasis added.)

So the righteous who departed this life firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, who had offered sacrifice in the similitude, many of whom had seen Him in the flesh, who witnessed Him and were ministered to by Him, and given authority by Him, in the spirit world, remained in the world of the dead to preach to the dead. They were NOT resurrected.

Joining the Family of God by an Ordinance

Only the organization of God’s family through a temple and associated rites, results in finishing the family of God in the House of Order. IF this were to be done it would allow the recipients to follow the results achieved, or allowed the results achieved by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which are described in D&C 132:37. Abraham Isaac and Jacob:

…did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

carl_bloch_the_christNote that in D&C 138:41 Abraham, the father of the faithful, Isaac and a Jacob were also there in the spirit world among the dead seen in the Vision of the Redemption of the Dead. In verses 41-22 of 138, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were there. But in the revelation recorded in 1843 they were sitting on thrones. They were not left behind in the spirit world proselytizing. Instead they are sitting on thrones.

The difference between these two categories of the righteous are the differences between individual salvation, which gives hope of a glorious resurrection, on the one hand, and reorganizing the family of God which must occur by an ordinance in a temple to be acceptable to God, on the other hand. This was why the command was given to build the temple in Nauvoo. And why God offered to restore to them the fullness that they did not achieve.

We need to let God take the lead, and then we need to patiently await each step along the way. This is the stuff of which the prophecies speak, and it is the stuff that will be fulfilled. But the rites and the ordinances necessary to accomplish that? People in this generation don’t even have a clue how that necessarily has to roll forth. But rest assured it will. God intends to set His house in order. He alone will do this.

Sources for the Interview:

Transcript One: http://3tcm.net/a-visit-with-denver-snuffer-transcript.pdf
Note: This version has been reviewed by Denver, missing material added

Transcript Two: http://3tcm.net/tim-malone-Q&A-with-denver-snuffer.pdf

Link to the MP3: http://3tcm.net/Denver_Snuffer_QA_13May2015.mp3
Note: The file is 60MB. It’s best to right-click on the link to download it.

Link to a PDF of answer to question six: http://3tcm.net/question-six.pdf

32 Responses

  1. Let me see if I understand this correctly…

    D&C 138:38-51:

    “38 AMONG the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation OF the righteous were Father ADAM, the Ancient of Days and father of all,

    39 And our glorious Mother EVE, WITH MANY of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God.

    40 ABEL, the first martyr, was there, and his brother SETH, one of the mighty ones, who was in the express image of his father, Adam.

    41 NOAH, who gave warning of the flood; SHEM, the great high priest [aka Melchizedek]; ABRAHAM, the father of the faithful; ISAAC, JACOB, and MOSES, the great law-giver of Israel;

    42 And ISAIAH, who declared by prophecy that the Redeemer was anointed to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that were bound, were also there.

    43 Moreover, EZEKIEL, who was shown in vision the great valley of dry bones, which were to be clothed upon with flesh, to come forth again in the resurrection of the dead, living souls;

    44 DANIEL, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people;

    45 ELIAS, who was with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration;

    46 And MALACHI, the prophet who testified of the coming of Elijah—of whom also Moroni spake to the Prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful day of the Lord—were also there.

    47 The Prophet ELIJAH was to plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to their fathers,

    48 Foreshadowing the great work to be done in the temples of the Lord in the dispensation of the fulness of times, for the redemption of the dead, and the sealing of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming.

    49 All THESE and MANY MORE, even the PROPHETS who dwelt among the NEPHITES and testified of the coming of the Son of God, mingled in the vast assembly and waited for their deliverance,

    50 For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.

    51 THESE the Lord taught, and gave THEM power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life”

    ———————————————————————

    All the capitalized names are those who received resurrecting power and now sit on thrones in the Father’s Kingdom (v.51). They are they who were “among” the “righteous” congregation (v.38)

    The “righteous” being the “…spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality; and who offered sacrifice in the simlitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name. All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of *A* glrious resurrection.” (verses 12-14)

    Would this be correct?

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  2. “Joseph only hinted at some of the remaining doctrines of the restoration that will be required to walk back to the beginning. We hardly yet comprehend the Lord’s plans. But to fulfill all that has been foretold, we or some future generation will need to build a temple acceptable to God in the boundary of the everlasting mountains, which will tremble at their presence, where all scattered Israel can return to receive an inheritance at the hands of Ephraim. (D&C 133:31-32.) The promised inheritance can only be received in a temple. It will include uses, layout, design and elements which will themselves testify of God and His Gospel in a way we do not presently have here on earth.

    “You can choose how much to receive or reject. You can walk away from the gathering by Christ – a hen gathering her chicks. This is not the first generation that has done that. But God has promised that some generation will receive what He offers, allow themselves to be gathered, and receive an inheritance as a part of His Covenant with the Fathers.

    “You may think this can be done in isolation as a faithful individual, but Zion will not be built by solitary souls. Nor will the required covenant be offered to an isolated individual. This is about God’s FAMILY.

    “This is why the jarring and contention, envying and strife of Joseph’s time was so toxic. Heaven weeps at us when it might instead rejoice over us.”

    Source: http://denversnuffer.com/2015/03/a-great-whole/

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    • Thanks, Tim.

      My comment was in response to understanding who the resurrected are.

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  3. ThanK you for your thoughts here Tim. Jeffrey, I understand your citation to DC 138 , however the wording of verse 48 has given me reason to doubt the official interpretation of this vision. I do not doubt that JFS had the vision, but I take the interpretation with a grain of salt. The wording in question is “sealing the children to their parents”. I am new to these things, being a fairly recent convert. Can you enlighten me?

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    • Do you know what is really funny about this vision? He listed seeing different prophets in this group, who were actually the same person re-incarnated (or however you want to say it) as other people he listed. So he was seeing doubles of the same souls. Ha ha I love it. Anyway I know other people don’t believe that but it is indeed the case. Funny stuff. For instance Noah and Seth, same soul he is talking about there. Lol.

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      • Please elaborate? Or point us to scriptures? Or make a new post… I, too, desire to learn more about this. Thank you!

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  4. Minorityofone,

    The term would be MMP (Multiple Mortal Probations) 🙂

    Would you mind emailing me and explaing how Noah is also Seth?

    jeffreyclinton12@yahoo.com

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    • Yes but what is it called in multiple mortal probations when someone is born again in a new life? Is there one word that would fit that better than reincarnation? I actually don’t mind that word. To incarnate is a pretty good description, it just kind of has different meanings with humans becoming slugs or trees or whatever.
      So anyway I don’t know what I can show you from scripture on the whole Seth=Noah thing. And it looks like denver just posted his opinion on MML which is interesting.

      Some interesting things about Seth, he was in the express image of Adam, (sorry I am going by memory so forgive if I misquote here) it was said that he was “like unto” Adam and in his image. In fact he was one of the few who was called perfect, yet we don’t hear too much about him. There is quite a bit more said about Seth in gnostic texts.

      Anyway ok so then we have Noah, who was actually born and fulfilled a mission like unto Adam. He was an “Adam” as the father and progenitor of people on the earth. Anywho, that is not a ton of info, but then in Daniel, and other places like revelations we see that one “like unto the son of man…” Shows up on the seen. Then we have “the ancient of days…” And these are two distinct individuals. Well I believe with everything that Adam was the same soul as Jesus. I believe that Jesus is the ancient of days, (and that Joseph Smith was correct that Adam is the ancient of days) and I believe that the one like unto the son of man is the one who was like into his father Adam (Seth)
      It also says in genesis that Seth was in the express image of his father which is interesting. Then we get into the roles of John the beloved and his role at the right hand of Jesus, and everyone mentions the davidic king of prophecy, but they neglect to mention the davidic prince and that they are two different people. There was a reason john (or his mother) asked if him and his brother could sit at the right and left hand of Jesus, and Jesus actually verified that there are such positions. Ha ha now I am just getting too lengthy here. Anyway I believe John the Baptist and Jesus knew who they were and John the Baptist was the same soul as Elijah, and it was literal when Jesus said John the Baptist was the greatest of prophets born of women, it wasn’t only pertaining to that current life. These three have come back in multiple roles and there is actually quite a bit of scriptural evidence if people start connecting dots. But it is much easier to connect dots after revelation is given. It rarely comes the other way around, at least for me. So at least that could give you some stuff to look into yourself if you care to. I liked Denver’s recent post I respect him for just saying what he believes and not giving a crap what other people say. I can relate:) if one knows they have a connection to heaven, why would any earthly voice mean a dang thing?

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      • Thank you, MofO. There is much to ponder here. I appreciate your reply.

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  5. Thank you, Tim.

    I think this subject is the most misunderstood and undeveloped truth of the Restoration.

    From the chaos of distortion and unbelief surrounding this topic of The Family of God stem untold millennia of horror and unrighteous dominion: the first murder, the abuses and wars throughout history, and more recently the decades of plural marriage tragedies, the condemnation of the church in Nauvoo, the death of the Restoration along with Joseph & Hyrum, the curse lasting four & five generations, and finally the removal of the Lord’s Commission from the LDS Church in 2014. Not to mention the misunderstood feelings of connection the Family of God feels for one another.

    So clearing this up and restoring the truth about the Family of God and how it will be organized along with its associated ordinances, rites & Covenants is a huge work yet to be accomplished. Lest anyone claim to know or be that guy or gal, I am glad we are clearly told that this is God’s work and He will accomplish it. No one need take upon themselves this work unless directed by Him.

    Christ’s work is initially individual redemption. It is required, but offered freely to all who will pay the price. The next step is: collective redemption (aka Zion). In preparation for Celestial glory. And glories above & beyond that.

    Interestingly enough, individuals who come unto Christ in all walks of life throughout history have been Redeemed by Christ. But no group of these Redeemed individuals has been able to Redeem Zion. Not even those Lehites to whom the Resurrected Lord appeared.

    Why not?

    Because, quoting Denver above, “Only the organization of God’s family through a temple and associated rites, results in finishing the family of God in the House of Order.”

    They apparently could not get it together enough to qualify for
    “the organization of God’s family through a temple and associated rites, result[ing] in [NOT] finishing the family of God in the House of Order.”

    That sounds familiar…

    Opportunities have repeatedly been given to groups of people who have failed time after time.

    What is the missing ingredient, then?

    Precisely what is taught above: the difference between individual Redemption ( = proselytizing in the spirit world) and Communal Redemption ( = sitting on thrones).

    I know which one I want.

    So its critical for me to understand that even if I am personally redeemed, and I am one of the

    “… righteous who depart… this life firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, who had offered sacrifice in the similitude, …had seen Him in the flesh, who witnessed Him and [was] ministered to by Him, and [am] given authority by Him, in the spirit world”… despite ALL of that gloriousness… if I am not sealed into the family of God through in an earthly temple by an ordinance restored to the earth by God, I will “remain… in the world of the dead to preach to the dead.” I will NOT be resurrected until this happens.

    That’s why there’s some urgency to this Family of God thing!

    Not only can we NOT create Zion without this key ingredient, we cannot be resurrected until we have this key ingredient!

    And the same for all our kindred dead.

    The accomplishment of this work is critical.

    Rising up to assist God in this, His work, is an opportunity very few have been afforded.

    Wasting time in jarrings and contentions and vanity and hurt pride is a perfect distraction.

    The way is clear: we must each be individually redeemed and then communally redeemed by these precise pattern and instructions that will come forth.

    I know His work cannot be hastened but I desire to hasten my personal connection to heaven so I’m ready when God says “Go!”

    Thank you to all who are clearly teaching what “The Family of God” truly means (what little has been restored about it).

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    • To clarify: no people since Melchizedek’s time have accomplished Zion.

      This “Family of God” stuff is crucial to understand and get right. Let’s be the ones to finally get it right (maybe MofO can tell us if we are some of the Enoch’s City of Zion residents, remortalized in order to finally get it right this time?)

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      • I wrote a reply from another comment above regarding a little bit about my personal understanding. I happen to believe wholeheartedly that just about everyone has multiple lives on this very earth. I believe the scriptures point to it, the spirit will testify of it to anyone who really seeks for answers on that topic, I believe it brings clarity to the whole plan, and explains so much.
        The idea that people who does before the age of 8 just get a pass to the celestial kingdom, and that was their only life on this earth is kind of ridiculous in my view. Multiple lives has more evidence than any other spiritual doctrine ever taught on the earth. We literally have children remembering their past lives where they died young, and they actually go back with their current parents and meet the past parents, who verify everything the child said about many specific details in the child’s past life. We have Gnostic Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Egyptians, native Americans, Hindus, theosophists, Kabbalists, mystics of many kinds including Muslim Sufis, and many other cultures and belief systems who taught and understood the truth about multiple lives. Now the studies of past life regression are incredible. We have so many accounts of hypnotherapists who regress a husband who details past lives, and then the wife comes in separately afterwards and in her regression verifies past lives lived with the spouse in different roles. There is so much evidence pointing to multiple lives, and more and more coming forth all the time.
        I would not be surprised at all if many of the people of Enoch are back. Bodhisattvas are real. That is simply a reality. Anyway I do agree with denver that it is funny to see how many people claim to be awesome people back from the past. Perhaps they need to learn confidence and self worth so their spirit urges them to believe they were great people of the past so they can have confidence in current endeavors.
        I disagree about his assessment that there are not people who claim they were past serfs or lowly roman soldiers. He has not studied the field and has proven ignorant of it. There are countless cases of past life regression where people are astounded to find they were slaves, murderers, rapists, and people of every walk of life. Actually many people go in and tell the hypnotherapist they know they are old, wise souls and when they are regressed they find they are young souls with very few lifetimes under their belt. Anyway that is just some thoughts from the peanut gallery:) I agree there should be less jarring and contention. We can all be true to ourselves and see the beauty in others beliefs and positions. Time for sleep.

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        • Thank you, you’ve responded twice now & I’m grateful.

          Interesting that Denver posted precisely on this matter, and I think this is the first thing I respectfully see differently than Denver.

          I had completely discounted this idea until I became awakened and realized that nearly everything I’d been taught since Primary had to be reexamined.

          I agree that the idea of multiple mortalities makes everything fit into place and make sense. We are here to fix OUR OWN messes that we’ve made over millennia of lifetimes. But our station in life that is at all “blessed” is because we mastered the law upon which such blessing is predicated in a former life.

          For example, I absolutely take exception to Denver’s assertion that only noble pasts are claimed. Those who are truly convinced of this principle whom I know are certain they were the scum of the earth in past lives. Myself included.

          I’ve posted elsewhere that I’m certain I was murdered, a murderer, raped, a rapist, whore and whoremonger, abused and abuser, liar, cheater, & thief with the blackest of hearts in the past.

          Denver teaches that there is no “Pixie Dust”. We work out our salvation from the bottom rung on the ladder. And if I’m not a lying, thieving piece of street vermin or a Nazi biology experiment or concubine # 387 in a desert herem somewhere in this life, it’s not because I’m magically favored of God. It’s because I have used my agency to choose faith in Christ and His blood to overcome those horrific stations in life (see Alma 13).

          And true, none of it means squat if I squander my opportunity here and now. But it gives me humility & compassion for whatever horrendous or rebellious status of my fellow mortals I see in life, because I know I’ve in actuality been there and done that.

          It also gives me hope that if I could overcome so many horrors to attain unto the station today of seeking to be a part of the Family of God in Zion, then there’s hope for me.

          I believe that something which answers questions, creates order out of chaos, grants understanding and peace & inspires hope and faith in Christ and humility before Him, and compassion in me for the least of my brethren (aka myself)… that that something must be of God.

          (Sorry about the drift in comments but this is all actually very connected to the Family of God topic. Namely, who exactly, comprise the Family of God and how did THEY get to be so lucky?!…. ) 🙂

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  6. Sealing families is NOT part of Christ’s doctrine. Why? Because we are already part of the family of God.

    Jesus taught his doctrine plainly and the way to be saved is given openly and plainly to all. In his ministry to the Jews and to the Nephites he never mentions building temples or secret sealing ordinances. He gives his doctrine of believing in him, repenting, baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost, and then makes it clear that anything more or less than that cometh of evil and is NOT of him.

    You’ll notice there is nothing about genealogy, work for the dead and sealings in these verses.

    Mormon 9:23
    23 And he that believeth and is baptized SHALL BE SAVED, but he that believeth not shall be damned;

    3 Nephi 11:33
    33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same SHALL BE SAVED; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    Moroni 7:34
    34 And he hath said: Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye MAY BE SAVED.

    There is only one family of God. We can choose to be a part of it, or we can reject it, but no sealings need to take place. Marriage and family “sealings” are a tradition of men and are “more” than the doctrine that Christ set forth in the book of Mormon. (3 Nephi 11:31-40)

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    • Adam, Amen! NO, Deseret Book “Together Forever” Scensy Party, I referred the most sisters in my Relief Society, One family room mural to Rule them All Christmas Discount Kit hanging in my home, lol … AND / BUT … (Being totally serious now) I don’t know if “SAVED” is the destination some of us are looking for. I have more thoughts, but want to read the entire thread before chiming in. Thank you.

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    • I respectfully disagree with the assertion that an official ordinance sealing a person into the Family of God is not needed. Promises and reassurances from Christ can be given to an individual, but His Fullness that was promised in Nauvoo remains to be bestowed upon us.

      “Turning the hearts of the children to the Fathers” means being sealed to the Fathers through covenant, by sacrifice, and with an official ordinance that will be restored in the temple that will be built.

      We know so little about this because it hasn’t even been restored, yet. It’s precisely what Joseph was doing– trying to get the people to embrace communal Family exaltation (not just individual salvation) — when he was martyred. It’s precisely WHY he was murdered– and for the same reason Abel was murdered.

      You see, I believe that the magnificent scriptures quoted are indeed promising salvation– but on an individual level. Which is wonderful– just ask those spirits who are currently missionaries in the spirit world !

      But the Fullness– the full Restoration of the religion practiced by Adam down to Shem– and then sought for and achieved by Abraham through Ephraim– was meant for and can only be attained on a community basis. This is why there have been myriad saved individuals throughout history, but very few Zions. (Zion may consist of as few as 7 couples, BTW).

      The Lord invites saved individuals to seek and receive more: the covenant that was given to the Fathers.

      We can have that! Don’t settle for being a missionary in the Spirit world when you can have what Abraham & Sarah have! And all the Fathers.

      I invite each of you reading this to ask Christ if He is interested in “merely” saving you or if He has so much more in store for you. And HOW to become a part of it. He will guide you in your journey.

      God bless us all on our journey.

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  7. Angelina and Adam

    You both have addressed thoughts that have come to me during the last couple of days … thank you … I’m so glad I’m not alone in my feelings or understanding of things. Coming out of cults is a difficult one. But one that is necessary in order to be set free from the doctrines of men that subject others.

    Being sealed to the Fathers has always been offensive to me for it puts more layers between me and Jesus … Thank you Adam for your reminder of the true Doctrine of Christ which we seem to lay aside and get preoccupied with a man’s interpretation of scripture and teachings that take us away from Jesus.

    And thank you Angelina for the reminder that we all started at the bottom of the ladder and the need to be humble and compassionate towards others.

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    • hannah,

      Thank you for your sincerity!

      I invite you to consider that being sealed to the Fathers is perhaps less like creating a layer in between us and Christ, and more like a “Welcome Home” party thrown by Christ & His wife, and our Father and Mother, and all the other Gods, aka The Fathers, and their wives–The Mothers– and families. They want desperately to wrap their arms around us, fall on our necks and kiss us! It’s one big fandangledly Happening party.

      Please understand that everyone at the party will know the Lord. Not know about the Lord; KNOW the Lord. Individual salvation and redemption will have already been bestowed on each party-goer, and in such salvation you are right– there is absolutely NO ONE between us and the Lord.

      But I see this whole “Connect to The Fathers” thing as “the next step up”. The “next level”. I see progression as endless so why limit ourselves to “simply” individual salvation when we can attain unto that with our spouse, then with our best friends, then with our town, then our country, then planet, then solar system, then galaxy, and so on.

      We were meant to be so much more than un-resurrected spirit missionaries to Spirit Prison. I just can’t get over the fact that they had an opportunity to be resurrected but weren’t because THEY DID NOT QUALIFY for resurrection at that time. Why not? They were not connected to The Fathers. They had not been sealed into the Family of God.

      Wow. Just WOW!

      Receiving the Covenant and what the Fathers had is not just a nice option, it is critical to our progress.

      I invite you to reconsider the notion as being offensive and instead seek to know if these things are true and if this connection is precisely what Christ wants for you. He will let you know.

      With respect and love,

      Angelina 🙂

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  8. These are all cool thoughts. What is it that “seals” one to different people? In the spiritual realms it is all about spectrums and vibrations/frequencies. I will be simplistic and say that every spirit vibrates at a different rate.
    In most all religions they teach there are different heavens, degrees, planes, realms or whatever you want to call it. Many of them in fact. Let me ask that you consider that if we ascend to a higher vibratory state, we have been sealed to a new realm and all be individuals in that realm. This is what makes objects solid, denotes what we can see and not see, and who we can interact with.
    You want to be sealed to Abraham and company, reach the same spiritual attunement. This is simplistic, but for an ascended being to appear to us, either our frequency must be raised to match theirs, or theirs must be lowered to match ours. This is also how spirits communicate one with another. If we can attune to their frequency or vibration, we can also receive communication from them through the Holy Ghost. What ordinance do you know of that saves someone or elevates their spirit simply by doing it?

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    • Another question, if you knew that certain truths could benefit mankind, and you wanted to pass that truth down to people in the future, and you also wanted it to benefit people now and in each succeeding generation (meaning it can’t be a buried record) then what would be the best way to pass that truth on with the goal of it not being corrupted?

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      • Let’s see… scriptures can be tampered with, transcripts of talks can be edited, ordinances can be changed or eliminated altogether and verbal assertions can be marred.

        I’m thinking the only way for truth to continue is for the power of the Holy Ghost to teach each individual the truth as they review the tattered shreds of what’s left of truth. If we do not have the Holy Ghost and angels expounding the correct meaning of scriptures to us, we’re not in truth.

        I don’t know of any mortal or telestial way to protect & disseminate truth, incorrupted, for very long.

        What’s your take?

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    • “What ordinance do you know of that saves someone or elevates their spirit simply by doing it?”

      Great comment, thank you.

      I’d like to first learn your views on ordinances (and I’m learning about this right along with you… I certainly don’t have all the answers.)

      What is their purpose?

      Are they required? Why or why not?

      What is the role of authority and authorization in all of this?

      And, as you asked, how do we know an ordinance is “effective” or “accepted” or “successful” in achieving & accomplishing its purpose?

      If that goal can be accomplished without the ordinance, is the ordinance still needed? Why?

      Or can no purposes be accomplished without the ordinance, period? Why?

      I’d be interested to learn your views, or please direct me to where you’ve posted about this already. Thanks!

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      • If you believe an ordinance is necessary, and you are Buddhist and talking about a Buddhist ordinance/ritual, you better do the ordinance so your mind can overcome the stumblingblock that you would have if you didn’t so the ordinance and you could never have full faith and you would doubt that you didn’t do something necessary.
        We would all agree that if someone has great power, and has all the supposed authority in the world, and that person baptized someone else, if the person being baptized has zero faith and is doing it for the wrong reason, then the person being baptized will receive nothing.
        So we can all agree (I assume) that just being baptized doesn’t save anyone, and just because someone has authority to baptize that doesn’t mean the baptism will be effective at all.
        I happen to disagree with denver that it is all about the person baptizing having authority and power. I believe it is all about the person being baptized and their authority to be baptized.
        In other words why is someone being baptized? Is it because they are being told to be? Is it blind faith? People think it is faith to do something that God has not spoken to them, and then they expect results? Then they are disappointed when nothing magnificent happens… Well why would God pour out His spirit upon someone being baptized if He never told them to be baptized?
        So the point is that if God tells you personally an ordinance is necessary FOR YOU, then it is. Don’t assume God says the same thing to everyone though.
        Obviously being dunked in a pool doesn’t mean anything, or simply hearing baptism words doesn’t mean anything. Everything that changes a person spiritually happens inwardly.
        People argued over the necessary of circumcision just as much as people talk about the validity of baptism. Now looking in hindsight we wonder why anyone would think circumcision is necessary. Well guess what, it never was, but it was instituted in order to teach through symbolism.
        Symbols and rituals are perhaps the greatest vehicles of passing in truth through the ages. That way the truth is concealed in the ritual and yet seekers will find it. Another good way is through parables or stories. Yet even great stories get all convoluted.
        So I have zero doubt Jesus followed the Father/Mother in instituting the rituals he did. Yet that doesn’t mean others in different traditions weren’t following God in instituting their rituals that convey powerful truths.
        Could God say baptism isn’t necessary and we are going to start doing new rituals to teach in a different way? Absolutely. Ordinances and performances are designed to draw our mind towards thjngs that will bring a mighty change to our spirits. The perceived authority is greater than the actual authority of the one baptizing. Jesus telling people they have the authority to baptized may bring such powerful belief that the authority comes. Even Jesus can’t just change someone spiritually and cause/force them to be something, but he was the Master or bringing the power out of individuals that they didn’t know they had. I know these views are not kosher but that is my understanding. The Kabbalah speaks of a portion of the Messiah in each of us, I believe this is a reality.

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        • I would not be too froggy to contradict a direct command from the Risen Lord here:

          3 Nephi 27:20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

          or by direct revelation here:

          D&C 76: 51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given.

          Those choose to go some other route than baptism should be aware of this:

          D&C 84:74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am.

          See more here:
          http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=39111

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  9. 1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
    2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
    3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. (New Testament, John, John 9)

    Btw if people do not recognize that the disciples understood the reality of multiple lives from these verses alone I don’t know what it would take. There are so many verses in the bible that point to multiple lives. Also in the Book of Mormon. This also shows we must not assume that bad scenarios in others lives are due to karmic debt. They may be willingly enduring a trial for the sake of others.

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  10. multiple lives, while interesting, and I’ve heard the theory before, in greater evidence than being presented here….I disagree with it at face value. just because science finds people that can recite events of past lives isnt proof to a damn thing. Science will never be reliable when asked to prove spiritual things.

    heres what is overlooked.

    the spirit world is on our world. we live alongside next to the spirit world on earth. evil spirits especially, do not sit quietly about….they move about and wreck havoc wherever they go. they can often latch on to a person from birth or earlier….the scriptures merely state little children cannot sin and be held accountable….no where in this does it state blanket immunity from evil spirits….consider the child that is raped? did evil not directly harm the child? so evil spirits can directly interfere with little children. and parents often live lives that bring in and invite evil spirits….

    and most Americans have brought evil spirits on their children by circumcising aka raping and mutilating them, lying about Santa(thou shalt not lie people), teaching false doctrines, the public school system is basically run by Satan, etc. the point is children get exposed to evil spirits quite easily and very early….these spirits can and do bond with them and can alter their memories.

    now with that said, a spirit bonding with a child will alter the childs mind and body. to the point that their memories may be the same or get mixed. to that end that child may obtain memories from a evil spirit that really was a nazi general and that person may then grow up with memories of being a nazi general, may then confess to science in alarming detail of their time as a nazi general. and everyone then assumes because he can remember it, it is in fact true.

    another fact is human memories can be easily altered and changed just by humans alone….do not think evil spirits do not know this and do not alter your mind….if you are unaware of their existence they will give you no end to false memories.

    to that end….the scriptures that allude to reincarnation…..Im not sure they allude to that, and Im not sure it entirely matters at this point. seems like a round of mental masturbation really, and I say this because the restored gospel has so many other more pressing issues.we have so many issues that need to be overcome to even think about building a Zion, to even think about organizing the family of God. even this merry little remnant group is off base in a lot points if one looks at postings by people. we’re chronically and constantly fighting over issues of all kinds because while we may agree Snuffer is a good guy, and the LDS church has screwed us….our agreements seem to end there and after that we will fight and bicker to the bitter end.

    we are not ready for Zion not even close.

    ” then what would be the best way to pass that truth on with the goal of it not being corrupted?”

    all ancient texts, records, books, drawings, buried or otherwise were an attempt to pass on and preserve knowledge for a future generation. one hidden source of knowledge was often myths and legends and tales which to our forefathers were often considered fact. it might not be 100% accurate, but it’s the best they could do.

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    • Adam,

      You always bring a smile to my face with your genuine and witty comments. “Mental masturbation..” Ha ha ha that is awesome. Unfortunately you must admit that any doctrine of any sort could be called as much. Like nephi said what some esteem to be of great worth others set at nought.
      Some people cherish certain doctrines while others shirk them as useless. Some find the question of whether or not there is a God mental masturbation. They actually have a reasonable argument. “Well if there is a God he hasn’t thought it important to make himself known to me and I am here, so I will focus on being here now and doing what I want instead of speculating on whether there is some supreme being or not…”
      Anyway let me apply your same argument to evil spirits when it comes to the gospel. Well evil spirits could have been afflicting Jesus since he was born, or any person that ever claims anything, so I think I will just dismiss it. Is that a good argument?
      Let me apply Denver’s argument to something as well. He has said something to the effect that whether reincarnation is true or not doesn’t matter because it doesn’t change the fact that we are here now and we need to focus on the now. Ok that is a useless cliche.

      Whether there is an afterlife doesn’t matter because we need to focus on the here and now.

      Whether some guy named Jesus did anything important two thousand years ago doesn’t matter because we need to focus on the here and now.

      And the list could go on forever. These are actually tactics of deflection, used to discount the importance of a paradigm shifting principle or doctrine, that would have a great impact on ones outlook on reality. Not looking into the past to learn from history could lead to the repetition of mistakes that brought negative results. All we are now is an accumulation of events from the past, and the desire to progress can only become reality if we use past experiences to learn from and add to/take away from what we are to become something greater.
      Funny that we don’t hear the same verbage used against the Mormon doctrines of pre-mortal life and the grand councils in heaven that joseph smith taught. Shouldn’t that equate to mental masturbation as well according to your reasoning?

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      • I wish i could take credit for the term mental masturbation….but i heard it a long time ago in the halls of deep internet. I don’t recall where exactly I heard it first….but it’s not a common term.

        while i get what you are saying, and there is indeed truth to it. my point wasnt so much avoid talking of these things….my point was in the list of priorities i rate this was fairly low because we as a society cant even get the 10 commandments down.

        i agree what Denver said was a useless cliche, but it’s also accurate at the same time. we do need to focus on the here and now. Having read his post he makes a great counter point to the whole multiple lives theory, no one is claiming to be a serf that died early its always I am King this or Apostle this, etc. thinking on it now, one of the signs of last days if people saying “I am Christ” or “Lo Christ is over there”. etc.

        Was Jesus affected by evil spirits? Im sure they tried. the difference is Jesus could withstand whatever they tossed His way. unlike us….it is possible for Evil to sneak into our lives unknown to us and influence radically, Jesus not so much. It’s why as much as we should try to be like Jesus, we cannot just act 100% like Him nor in this life be 100% like Him. It’s why He does things with ease but even His most faithful followers screw up, in some cases royally.

        it is not so much avoid mental masturbation or deep thought and mysteries, so much as it is…there are real pressing issues….and i just don’t find this topic all that pressing is all. It is like Republicans and Democrats arguing over a 5 billion dollar spending cut while the debt is nearing 20 trillion(and this is just the main on the first books debt….the actual debt is infinitely higher)…5 billion truly just does not matter.

        I would actually use the same verbiage against some of those other topics, because i find them useless…..we live in a society that rapes it’s boys without remorse(150 million over the past 100 years and no one cares), lies to our children and sends them to prison because we love them aka school, breaks the 10 commandments with reckless abandon, pays tithing wrong, does the sacrament wrong, lacks faith as evidenced by a general lack of miracles, or to summarize it perfectly a quote i once saw

        “we live in a world where wood polish is made from real lemons and lemon is made from lemon flavoring”.

        the world has gone insane….if we must mentally masturbate….let’s do it over more pressing issues is my point is all.

        or Perhaps as Jesus told Joseph Smith when they first met “They draw near to me with their lips, but far from me with their hearts. They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof”….or whatever the exact wording is.

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        • sorry correction to this

          “we live in a world where wood polish is made from real lemons and lemon is made from lemon flavoring”.

          it should say

          “we live in a world where wood polish is made from real lemons and lemonade is made from lemon flavoring”.

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      • Nate,

        Amen to tons of things that you’ve said.

        The understanding of “eternal lives,” or the reincarnation of the soul is critical to properly understanding the scriptures and God’s plan for us.

        The only reason this concept is rejected is because of false traditions and precepts of men that have been handed down.

        The BOM talks over an over again about false traditions of the fathers, yet somehow we don’t think we have any…

        For those that would like to overcome a false tradition please take into consideration these verses:

        Job testifies that he will see God in the flesh in the latter days. How? He will be restored in the flesh.

        Job 19
        25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
        26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet IN MY FLESH shall I see God:

        These scriptures clearly show how the Jews are restored in the flesh. This is how the Jews that rejected Jesus can now have the opportunity to build upon the sure foundation of Christ. They come back and are born again.

        2 For behold, the promises which we have obtained are promises unto us ACCORDING TO THE FLESH; wherefore, as it has been shown unto me that many of our children shall perish in the flesh because of unbelief, nevertheless, God will be merciful unto many; and OUR CHILDREN SHALL BE RESTORED, that they may come to that which will give them the true knowledge of their Redeemer. (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi, Chapter 10)

        7 But behold, thus saith the Lord God: When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers that THEY SHALL BE RESTORED IN THE FLESH, upon the earth, unto the lands of their inheritance. (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi, Chapter 10)

        How is one restored in the flesh? They are born again.

        When the scriptures refer to flesh they are very consistent that it is talking about a physical or temporal body. Our resurrected bodies will be spiritual bodies.

        1 Corinthians 15:44
        44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is A SPIRITUAL BODY.

        Alma 11:45
        45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming SPIRITUAL and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

        Jacob, from the Old Testament, tells his sons what will happen to them in the last days. Why? because he sons will return again in the flesh.

        1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days. (Old Testament, Genesis, Chapter 49)

        In Matthew 24 the disciples of Jesus come to him and ask him what will happen at “the end of the world.” He goes on to tell them what will happen TO THEM in the last days. Why? because they would return in the flesh.

        Matt 24
        3 ¶And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of THE END OF THE WORLD?
        4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
        5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
        6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
        7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
        8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
        9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, AND SHALL KILL YOU: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

        How could Jesus’ disciples be killed at the end of the world unless they returned in the flesh?

        There are tons more verses about eternal lives once your eyes are opened to see it. Living once upon the earth is a false tradition of men.

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        • Adam,

          Beautiful. When I read the words you quoted in Matthew 24:9 “AND THEY SHALL KILL YOU…” The Spirit poured through me like a waterfall man. I had never put that together with that particular verse. Wow. Thanks brother that is another confirmation of some things I have been pondering on recently.

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        • when Jesus says

          “and they shall kill you”….this can be taken a number of ways

          1. the people of that day thought that there day was the end times
          2. it was written as a warning to us in the actual last days
          3. Jesus speaking in parables again
          4. eternal lives progression system you are harping on.
          5. translation error and Jesus didnt actually say it or use those exact words.
          6. many prophets ramble on and testify of future events for seemingly irrelevant reasons, after all they are going to be dead? so why testify of future events.

          to claim it can only be read THAT ONE WAY is ludicrous

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