Grand Key of Discernment – Case Studies


In my last post, I discussed how meekness, humility, and charity were the Grand Keys of Discernment. In this post, I feel impressed to discuss how we can get there, coming to a unity of the truth, using the Grand Keys, from a variety of different viewpoints. There is quite christianislama bit of activity going on in the world right now with respect to dreams and visions, not just in the Mormon corridor. Muslims, in particular, are reporting having dreams of the Savior and having Him call them to His ways. We should celebrate such efforts as the Master is going out into the Vineyard for the first time along with His servants, as discussed in Jacob 5.

71 And the Lord of the vineyard said unto them: Go to, and alabor in the vineyard, with your might. For behold, this is the blast time that I shall cnourish my vineyard; for the end is nigh at hand, and the season speedily cometh; and if ye labor with your might with me ye shall have joy in the fruit which I shall lay up unto myself against the time which will soon come.

72 And it came to pass that the servants did go and labor with their mights; and the Lord of the vineyard labored also with them; and they did obey the commandments of the Lord of the vineyard in all things.

Searching for Meekness in the Message

As discussed in my previous post, whenever we undertake to believe a principle, or do act upon a principle, we should take care to see 1) if it is ratified by the Holy Ghost through a burning in the bosom and 2) If it develops in us meekness and charity, or debasement of our selves in promotion of our fellow man. That debasement opens the path for out hearts to be softened. What happens with a softened heart? Is it not pliable? Is it not open to being taught true principles and correcting false ones? Does it not begin curing unbelief? The application thereof promises that truth seeker personalized evidence, fruits of the Spirit, and even visitation of the Divine. There is nothing dogmatic about this approach, and it can be used in a variety of different circumstances and belief windows, but the inevitable conclusion to such efforts is to exercise enough faith in Christ such as that he comes to gather us out of the Vineyard and unto Himself. Here’s how it can work, whether uncorrelated or correlated Mormon, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, even Agnosticism and Atheism. The principle can still work, insomuch that the end result is that we are all knit together in a unity of the faith.

Learning New Knowledge

Anytime one is taught a new principle, there is a tendency to want to share that knowledge . . . and rightly so. Yet, how often in our enlightenment, do we declare our new knowledge as the “right way,” the “true method,” or the “only way to go?” A humble, pliable, and meek person will see new knowledge with divine perspective. A few feet taller on the sidewalk does not make one understand the mysteries of universe, typically found at the top of the mountain. Meek learning is gentle, does not vaunt itself, entices but doesn’t force, withdraws upon any confrontation, the true understanding of “casting pearls before swine.” If once previous knowledge is discovered to be incorrect, there is never any attempt to alter the incorrect foundations for others. The invitation is always to upgrade! There are times when we are to be courageous and to discuss things “betimes with sharpness, WHEN MOVED UPON BY THE HOLY GHOST,” never in anger or in retaliation. But I find this to be a rare occurrence, and it’s usually limited to abominations of those that take name of the Lord in vain. True meekness is never frustrated or elevated by attacks upon personal character or motivation, but can sidestep such efforts and “turn the other cheek.” A meek person considers all viewpoints, is willing to switch direction entirely, and sees wisdom even in apparent irony. True knowledge is a pearl of great price, never a hammer for the ego.

I’d like to consider a few applications of meekness with differing belief windows.

  • Mainstream Mormonism – With the invitation to follow the Brethren as a primary course of action, I would consider seeking out Neal-A-Maxwell-Mormongood talks from the General Authorities that teach meekness, humility, discipleship, and charity. Being excited about the “slams” upon others, or the titillating talks that curse your favorite sin to hate, in which you have no struggle, probably hurt rather than help. Talks that deal with your own weaknesses should be a course of study. I find that talks from Elder Scott, Elder Maxwell, President Eyering are ones I have considered that focus on these key topics, but that’s just me. You may think of others. In your attempt to discover where you need to change course, the softening of the heart will cause the Lord to be able to instruct you, as well as to steer you away from incorrect teachings, historical errors, and other cultural inheritances that may cause you to NOT cast off your unbelief or to adjust your paradigm out of institutional safety. You will be more willing to consider the gaps in your understanding.
  • Remnant Mormonism – Many or you consider yourselves “awake.” This may be because of the process I just described above, or it may come from a motivation of pain. I trust that we can cast off the spirit of rebellion and see how the LDS Church still has much truth, and can help people come to Christ through the very same applications that caused YOU to become awakened. I don’t think it’s necessary for someone to stop following the Brethren in order to achieve the unity of Zion. There are enough good teachings (even if the application is in response to a simple obedient rubric) for a person to develop the qualities needed to be a Zion-like people. Many incorrect traditions need not be cast off early, but can survive the delicate process of heart softening until the very end. A good case study is to view early Christianity through the lens of obedient Jews who became Christian yet still retained their Jewish traditions, worship, and religiosity. Most of the early Apostolic leadership maintained such a course, even as it later became evident that such adherence was most likely unnecessary. We in the remnant movement, ought to give enough space to our mainstream Mormon brethren to follow similar paths. There will come a time when choices will be starker and more apparent, but it is for the Lord to dictate, and for us to invite as difficult choices must be made.
  • Other Religions – As I stated earlier, many Muslims have been converted by visions from the Lord. This is reminiscent of Joel who stated: “ 28 ¶And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will apour out my bspirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall cprophesy, your dold men shall edream dreams, your young men shall see fvisions:” While I consider this a yet future event, I believe that dreams and visions will accompany the imminent return of the Lord to His people, as well as afterward. As Muslims, Christians, Jews, and even Buddhists focus on core teachings that enhance meekness and charity and the softening of the heart, they will be more available to get instruction from heaven, even unknowingly, and with that instruction, will be able to discern unbelief in their own sects and be more accepting of new teachings from sources foreign. They will be able to discern the works of the Lord in the Book of Mormon and other modern day scripture, just as all of us will be able to discern scriptures not yet given. Even so, such acceptance is only a helpful tool. The Lord can lead anyone, even if they do not have access to scripture. We must be open to such possibilities. So if we encounter someone who does not believe in Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon, or has lost a testimony of such things but has a testimony of God, there is hope for them (as well as for us) to develop a unity of the faith in the most important matters.
  • Agnosticism/Atheism – This may seem like a tough one, yet even this is not impossible. Many atheists subscribe to such ideals as “new atheism” or “existentialism” which incorporate aspects of developing compassion for mankind and bettering mankind through acts of charity and service. Devout attention to such acts, with a sense of scientific curiosity and/or allowance for a humility in the face of a vast universe (we don’t know what we don’t know kind of attitude), I believe even such an one can qualify for a unity of the faith. Even their hearts can be softened, and even they can feel stirrings which would point them to the divine. Indeed, I believe that cheerful charity and meekness with one who doubts a higher power cannot help but feel that higher power reach down and touch their hearts in grace at some point. Nevertheless, we should embrace them in what they CAN do in common cause with us for the bettermecoesxistnt of mankind. For in reality, if God’s mission is to “bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man,” existentialism has much that can be embraced even in that statement, because there is a persistent undercurrent of attempting to better the life of man to the point that he may eventually evolve into a better situation, and possibly immortality. Who knows? Maybe this is how the first God in the first universe progressed.
  • Politics – I believe we must cast off our political leanings as the first fruits of our identity. We can believe in a party platform, or fight for great causes that mean something to us, but to come to a unity of the faith, we must put the universal virtues first, meekness, and charity. For a Republican, this may mean “denying not the beggar” in our own individual service to the poor, even if we disagree with welfare policy that uses tax dollars. For a Democrat, this may mean understanding that man-driven solutions may be inadequate, and that we need God for real change to take place, in a gentle and non-coercive manner. Frankly, I believe politics is mostly a conceited effort by man to come up with a universal application of policies that follow a certain type of virtue, and believing IT will work, instead of wondering in awe at the complexity of the universe, or even the complexity of each individual situation. Solutions in Zion will be made one-on-one, not through a rubric or systematic application of policy. A person will see the need of another, and feel compelled to fill that need.

It would be my hope that we could all begin to look at Zion through lenses in which we can come in common cause. Ideas such as meekness, charity, and compassion are universal, and can be our foundation, despite any belief window we come from. The only thing hindering us from that is our own vanity and pride . . . wanting to be right . . . more than wanting the betterment of mankind. Let us be so motivated.

27 Responses

  1. Thank you for this. This seems so simple, but I had to read it twice to glean out the wisdom here. There is much here we should all keep in mind.

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  2. Tim, good to see greater understanding and humility in this post. To me, this is the most positive, charitable post of yours in over a year. It appears perhaps your complaints and dissatisfaction have turned the corner to acceptance and more full recognition of the Lord’s plan for all mankind.
    Thanks for this post. It is a wonderful reminder of who we are striving to become as a people. The teaching herein is true. I pray we will all be able to ponder it and see more clearly. It’s a long, narrow path, but I find more and more that humility and charity assist us best as we travel along.

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  3. Tim thanks for this post. To me it is the most positive, humble, and charitable writing of yours in over a year. It seems your dissatisfaction and upset has begun to dissipate, and you are understanding more clearly. The post is a wonderful reminder of who we are striving to become, as well as a reminder that the Lord will seek out all of his children no matter where, or what beliefs they hold.
    Hopefully we, your readers, will ponder your words, discover the truth therein, then go to the Lord to know what their part is.
    Again, thanks for this insight and reminder that the Lord really is in charge.
    Ruth

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    • Ruth…

      I think you have a misunderstanding. This post is not by Tim. It is from an individual going by the name of “Toward Zion”. I believe he has posted about three times. I have enjoyed each one of them because they have been so up lifting and encouraging.

      I think Tim as been very gracious to allow others to post their point of view. However, for awhile there, there seemed to be so much contention in the posts and comments that I was becoming uneasy with the content.

      I differ in your assessment of Tim’s posts in that I recognize that this blog has, in some way, been a type of “Journal” of growth that he has allowed us to experience with him. I have always found him to be honest, forth right and open in his search for truth. We all have our up’s and down’s in our growth process and we should allow Tim the same consideration. I have learned much following his journey.

      The present post by “Toward Zion” has given me much to think about in the way of “tempering” my feeling and attitude toward the Church. Today, while I was helping clean the Chapel in our ward building, a feeling of love and companionship with my neighbors was strong and real. We all want return to our Father, we just have varying points of views on how to get there. I recognize we have more in common than we have differences.

      I have to admit, I miss some of the old apostles and their messages. I loved J Ruben Clark, who didn’t miss a beat in tell us “what was what.” He knew how to call the Saints to repentance. I miss Elder Maxwell and his great insight into the doctrine. The humble meekness of President Kimball was such a great example. However, he wasn’t afraid to confront the “heavy hitters” such as McConkie and Benson, when he felt they were out of line.

      I’m on board with one of the last statements. “Ideas such as meekness, charity, and compassion are universal, and can be our foundation, despite any belief window we come from.” Thanks, “Toward Zion.”

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      • Oops! Thanks. My post stands, however. Whom ever wrote it did an excellent job and is a good reminder for all of us on the journey.
        🙂

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        • Ruth

          I agree. There is so much great encouragement in his post, I keep returning to read it again.

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  4. It’s been a long time for me to reply to a post on your blog Tim. This post is refreshing. I sense the spirit as I read the post. I sense no guile herein.
    I know God loves all of His children and the LDS Mormon traditional view, the Jew, the Muslim, the Hindu, the Born again Christian, the Methodist, the Catholic, and the progressive LDS Mormon view are all the viewpoints of the children of our great God and King.
    He loves each one and as they live righteous lives and follow their God given conscience in treating others He will continue to bring them to Him through His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
    Contemporaries of Joseph Smith followed the Lord Jesus Christ fully but never became engaged in the Restored Gospel.
    There is room for all at least until we come to a unity of the faith — not a unity of the Church for that will only occur during the 1,000 years that Christ reigns personally over His creation.

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  5. you know i feel like meekness is a very misunderstood concept….i think we often misunderstand it as some down to earth non confrontational person. yet let us look 3 of the most shining examples of meekness. Moses, Moroni, and Jesus.

    Jesus called virtually everyone hypocrites, flips the tables of the money changers and calls His best friend Peter, a child of the devil at one point.

    Captain Moroni….It is said of him if everyone was like him the very gates of hell would shake….yet let me emphasize CAPTAIN….he goes to war, does not hesitate to raise and army in the name of freedom and God, and is all around one tough dude that does not shy from confrontation.

    Moses it is said is the meekest man on earth…..He marches straight in the throne room of the pharaoh and starts making demands, proceeds to stomp on the mighty Egyptian empire, destroys the golden calf and grinds it to dust and makes the sinners drink it.

    all 3 men are praised to no end, are exceptionally meek, yet were extremely confrontational. in fact the entire ministry of Jesus is confrontation after confrontation after confrontation.

    this tells me, meekness is not mr. shy. who is afraid of a little confrontation and anyone thinking it is is seriously deluding themselves.

    these are descriptions and things that men who are exceptionally meek do. one might be wise to study these meek men before we go around claiming we know what meek is. words change their meanings over time.

    not saying we need to start a war here….but the idea that we need to bow our heads in quiet submission because thats not only what Jesus did, but His prophets did, is an outright lie. it is a false idea that has crept into christianity. you cannot take turn the other cheek as the supreme rule, while ignoring the fact, that that is rarely actually done in practice, and even Jesus when He turns the other cheek and dies, is in all reality crushing all the plans of Satan. and Jesus is extremely famous for parable speak, so me thinks there is another meaning there. and isnt there a D and C verse that tells us God authorizes us to defend our families? turn the other cheek doesnt mesh with that too well.

    now what is humility and charity? Im not going to rant on that…but I will just leave this here:

    For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

    if you arent getting yelled at….God doesnt love you is the message here….so humility which is following God and God yells at those whom He loves….one might stop and ask do we have the definitions of charity, meekness, and humility correct? or have we screwed those definitions up too?

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    • Adam, you are correct. Meekness isn’t weakness, it’s gentle courage. While there are other attributes to committed disciples, meekness, charity, and humility (particularly sacrifice) are keys to not being deceived.

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  6. I am especially grateful for these recent posts from Toward Zion. Every time I think about or study the Lord’s mortal ministry, I come away with a greater appreciation of meekness. This is a practical religion, something I can use in my daily life. Perhaps it can be summarized by “keep your mouth shut when you are angry or upset about something, at least for a little while.” I am just as passionate as the next guy about certain things, but when I keep quiet and listen I learn.

    Meekness to me is a willingness to allow someone to abuse you, even though they may not know they are doing it. In the end, truth is it’s own witness. The best thing I can do is radiate love and acceptance, especially of those who are searching, broken or in need of support. I have no desire to argue about who is right and who is wrong. Thank you “Toward Zion” for sharing some practical guidelines that are helping us prepare for Zion.

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    • Tim, I can honestly say I love you as a brother. You are searching for your way just as all of our Heavenly Father’s children are doing.
      You have elected to bring about Zion from outside the traditional LDS Church. For that I find no fault and pray the Lord Jesus Christ to keep you and bless your life and the life of your family and friends. I term it the progressive movement and some call it the “remnant movement”.
      I feel the Lord is calling me to work to bring about Zion from within the traditional LDS Church.
      Keys are not something that can be given to one and then just removed. If that is the case then I would question the foreknowledge of God in giving the gift in the first place. How can a gift be enjoyed when the receiver is not worthy or not willing to handle the Keys appropriately.
      Surely God would cease to be God if He made those major mistakes. And how could I have faith that moves mountains in a God who works by trial and error?
      With that being said I am refreshed that I sense less malevolence in your postings against the LDS Church.
      We are all children of our God and we need to keep our sense of propriety in dealing with others as we work out our own Salvation.
      From Numbers:
      24 The Lord bless thee, and keep thee:
      25 The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
      26 The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
      27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.
      With Love my Brother — CallingMichael2050

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      • First of all, I’m not Tim. But Tim does let me post on his blog, so in sense, his allowing me to post would not happen if he at least did not approve of the tone of my stuff. He’s very gracious!

        Second, if you are seeking up to build Zion within the LDS Church, and you are doing it diligently, then eventually and hopefully, we will come to a unity of the faith. It’s true we differ on the concept of keys. I only hope we can apply the concepts of meekness together until we understand keys, authority, and Priesthood. For me, that has been to study Alma 13, D&C 84, D&C 101 (in particularly how keys are distributed among LDS Church quorums), Matthew 18, Mark 9. This isn’t exhaustive, but it is some of the areas that have helped me come to understand doctrines of Priesthood and keys.

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        • Toward Zion —
          I know you are not Tim.
          I also know that Tim reads those who write to him. I apologize if you thought I considered your post Tim’s post.
          No I didn’t.
          Tim is a very gracious person indeed who is feeling his way in some new horizons for him.
          So my post was to Tim and not you — and thank you for trying to correct me so that I may clarify the one whom my post is directed.
          I also appreciate you trying to give me direction to understand keys, authority, and Priesthood. I do understand and can never deny that which has been shown to me.
          May I pray the choicest blessings to go with you in your own search from a Heavenly Father and Savior who loves you.

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    • while i appreciate Tim’s comments…

      “Meekness to me is a willingness to allow someone to abuse you”

      “I have no desire to argue about who is right and who is wrong.”

      the reality is the three meekest men in the whole of scriptures DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THIS.

      everyone ignores this fact and somehow thinks Captain Moroni isnt meek or otherwise scoffs at the fact that the book of mormon could be renamed the book of wars just as easily, Jesus is meek but ignores His rampant use of calling people out on their crap 24/7 and flipping tables over, or Moses who spends most of his time as leader confronting people and often shaking his head in disbelief….these three 3 the meekest of all in the whole of scriptures, and yet they behave radically different from “no desire to argue” mentality that gets displayed in virtually every description of meekness i read about.

      if meekness if bowing down to abuse, being non confrontational, and otherwise acting like a wimp…..these 3 meekest men in all scriptures INCLUDING JESUS CHRIST, then well these three men lack that trait. and even the one time Jesus bows down and submits HImself to abuse by dying, is in all reality a stab to the heart of the plan of Satan. He crushes Satans head in that moment, hardly non confrontational even in His willingness to die.

      i write this because I would love to hear someone reconcile this fact with their definitions of meekness because the two are at odds with each other.

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      • Adam — While engaging in your idiom would only serve you I can see your point.
        But I would challenge you to go search what “meek” is defined as. One can be meek and still raise the bar when moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
        I won’t reply back but I wish you the best as you seek to do the Lord’s will.

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        • “While engaging in your idiom would only serve you I can see your point”

          how does it only serve me? its a legit point that is often totally missed because somewhere along the line in history christianity took a female point of view and turned into submissive little babies while ignoring the fact that is not how Gods prophets and Jesus HImself behaved. yes you said you wouldnt reply but still….to anyone reading.

          “The other problem is that there is a spiritual meekness and then there is the oxford definition of meekness that applies to the world.”

          bingo we have a winner.

          glad someone on here really fully got my point. so i thank you minorityofone. you at least seemed to take a greater effort to define meekness based on the scriptures and not our half backwards worldly definition.

          “it’s gentle courage”

          while i do agree this can be true….my study of the behavior of prophets seems to be they are very rarely gentle in their approach because as minority stated…

          “There is no authority over one who is truly meek other than the Source, and therefore they become a nuisance and a threat to those who are accustomed to social norms and political correctness.”

          these meek folks just quite frankly dont care for political correctness….at some point in their lives they develop indifference to traditions, boldly speak their minds often with the power of The Holy Ghost backing their words, and as such piss off the world which often has the power of Satan in their hearts. this indifference often comes as a result of acquiring some great knowledge about God, at which point they realize much of the world is pure BS….they realize what is a priority in this world and seek after that priority aka God and His will.

          “The doctrine that someone who is meek will withdraw from all confrontation is unequivocally false”

          bingo…..as I know i stated when i first found this blog….i asked would you people even want a prophet? you all clamor for a prophet, yet i ask do you people even want one? do you even know what a prophet does? He aint mr. mild avoider of all confrontation….he’s mr. you are sinning heres why and if you don’t like it too damn bad. and if you piss me off bad enough God is going to back up my words and you’ll be sorry.

          read a book called “the impotent church”….it deals it with this topic….how the church(and by church i mean christianity as a whole) started acting like children and women which is something Isaiah chapter 3 and 4 tell us will be a problem.

          http://smile.amazon.com/Church-Impotent-Feminization-Christianity/dp/1890626074/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1434955412&sr=8-1&keywords=the+impotent+church

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  7. 26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God. (Book of Mormon, Moroni, Moroni 8)

    First off, meekness comes because of the remission of sins, this is really cool. Humility can come before the remission of sins (in fact it has to) and often is mistaken for meekness.
    The other problem is that there is a spiritual meekness and then there is the oxford definition of meekness that applies to the world.
    In order to obtain the spiritual gift of meekness, one must first taste of the reality of God and Gods majesty (the remission of sins which is a tangible and incredible experience) after which the individual learns that the reputation of men, the critical analysis of the fallen creatures of this planet are absolutely meaningless. What matters is our relationship and favor with the Almighty God. We also begin to plainly see our weakness and fallen nature which in turn brings utter reliance on the power of God because we know we are undeserving and weak, so we meekly submit to God more and more until we learn to “walk with God” as Enoch.
    Adam you are absolutely right. The worldly definition of meekness is not the same as the spiritual meaning. A truly meek man will almost always be seen as confrontational and arrogant because they simply don’t really care about what people think. There is no authority over one who is truly meek other than the Source, and therefore they become a nuisance and a threat to those who are accustomed to social norms and political correctness.
    The doctrine that someone who is meek will withdraw from all confrontation is unequivocally false. That is akin to a Pharisee saying that only a certain amount of steps are to be taken on the sabbath. Both equate righteousness to outward behavior and actually teach judgment of those who do not adhere to the false rule that God never spoke. If people judge the validity of a messenger, or his/her message based on the outward appearance and how “loving” or “Christlike” or “charitable” they perceive others actions to be, they have not found the means of recognizing truth.

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  8. The sadness is found in the irascibility of many posts herein. Lo here and Lo there. Each one with their own form of acerbity. I have always felt that of such stay away for they have an agenda behind the message.
    I love DS because I find no guile in him. I don’t agree with all of his assertions but he is humble and meek whether you give him the “Oxford” definition or the existential definition of both. He is definitely bold but to speak with him is found a soft answer and a simple statement of what he believes and knows. No effort to indoctrinate.
    So many have quoted the 121st section of the D&C in many of these posts:
    34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
    35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
    36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
    And yet these violations are the very essence of their posts — look at me I am right and you are wrong; you don’t know how to recognize truth; you don’t know what it means to understand; you are not as “inspired” as I am; I have the truth you have the false; ad nausea-um.
    Paul stated it best to his pastoral friend Timothy in 2nd Timothy, Chapter 3:
    1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
    2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
    3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
    4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
    5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
    Oh that the mind of God could so easily be discovered — would there have ever been a falling away if such were the case. Time is the great benefactor of humanity —

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    • Do you think people thought Paul was arrogant and had the same attitude that you have chosen to perceive in others? Did Paul claim to have the truth when others didn’t?

      The number one complaint I hear about denver is that he is prideful and arrogant. Do you think any LDS church general authority would not find denver to be an arrogant, ignorant fool?

      If Jesus Christ were to walk up to almost any self-proclaimed Christian in any Christian religion or movement and began to teach the truth he would be shunned, people would call him confrontational, arrogant, pompous, thinking he was more inspired and self righteous. Most people who talk about being Christlike and charitable and meek would say Jesus exemplified the opposite of these qualities if they had much interaction with him. Look at what Jesus said would happen to those who truly took up their cross and followed Him. They would be cast out and scorned and spoken evil against and all the rest. According to the definition of meekness people have conjured up those who were meek would never have to worry about these things because they would simply practice avoidance and withdraw from all confrontation.
      Often those who are unsure or lacking knowledge are so prideful that they think that other people are in the same boat. They outwardly seek to project a false humility by behaving in a way they believe humble people would behave. This is immoral because they are not being themselves, and they are seeking to deceive others around them by projecting something to the world that is not who they are. If words and thoughts are in your heart, does it change ones heart to say something other than what is in their hearts, or to behave in a way that is not true to themselves, or does it make them a hypocrite?
      Is the gospel about faking it until we make it? People seek to continually cover up their nakedness because they are ashamed of being themselves and the fig leaves are all of the things they think a righteous person would do, so they try to do those things to hide the person they are inside and think if they play a part enough they will become that thing they pretend to be. Only God can tell us the state of other people’s hearts. If we judge someone to be prideful or arrogant based on anything other than because God told us that person was arrogant or prideful, it is the judgment of men and we prove to have a beam in our eye.

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      • Minorityofone —
        You have made my point in a most beautiful manner. I have no need to reply because the embodiment of my treatise is found in your reply.
        You are right and I am wrong in your heart — and is that not the reality of all the arguments that fill with vitriolic intemperance these blogs.
        Everybody demanding their logic and puffed-up pride of proving other paths wrong.
        The spirit of contention is not of the Lord God — never was and never will be and for that I am so grateful. Truth never needs contention to prove itself.
        But I commend you for your boldness in proclaiming yourself and your beliefs — the demarcation line is ever so evident.
        In all evidence I plead the Lord’s choicest blessings with you brother until we come to a unity of the faith as we strive to live to the level of light and knowledge we have each been given.
        And I hope we can always be brothers in the Gospel of our great God and King, Jesus Christ.

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        • I always smile when people write they have no need to comment as they are commenting. You have to admit that is a little funny. Thank you for telling me what you perceive to be in my heart.

          I sincerely have not seen any vitriolic intemperance.

          I have not seen any comments that lead me to believe that bloggers were puffed up or prideful.

          But thank you for praying blessings upon me. Same to you.

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  9. minorityofones comments hit the nail on the head.

    Calling is using scripture to bow out of a conversation not because calling is filled with meekness, no rather calling cannot grasp his beliefs being openly challenged because his beliefs are not rock solid.

    when you are willing to get openly laughed at for your beliefs and mocked and scorned, your beliefs are rock solid. but if you take the cowards way out, your beliefs are not solid. and yes I have walked the talk here.

    but this point here is an often overlooked and missed point

    “If Jesus Christ were to walk up to almost any self-proclaimed Christian in any Christian religion or movement and began to teach the truth he would be shunned, people would call him confrontational, arrogant, pompous, thinking he was more inspired and self righteous. ”

    this is so true it hurts. its something Ive supposed for quite a long time. I even wrote up a mock interview for the temple recommend and my conclusion was Jesus would fail a temple recommend interview.

    the point is this absolutely 10000000% correct. virtually everything we have been taught by culture tradition and churches of all kind about Jesus is 1000000000% incorrect. it is false. that book i linked in the other post deals with this topic pointedly. a fun fact for those that read the new testament….Jesus never, no not once, praises the apostles, His best friends. He never once tells them how much He loves them. He without fail, constantly, challenges them, challenges every tradition, makes a mockery of their customs at every turn, insults them all constantly, hands out forgiveness to the least likely of souls seemingly all because they asked and just happened to be in the right place at the right time, befriends the whore and the harlots and trodden down of society, and then proceeds to do the unthinkable and proves He is God of The Impossible….upon His own self imposed rules, dies and raises Himself up again AND THEN against all cultural traditions appears to a freaking woman first.

    Jesus at every turn in His existence, openly shames and destroys every last tradition, preconceived notion about anything we could ever have.

    but go ahead Calling avoid your confrontation with reality, avoid studying your scriptures and remain secure in your traditions.

    you refuse to accept what we right, because of quoted scriptures(despite what Ive said is all in the scriptures) and because contention is of Satan….while true it is of Satan, avoiding hard truth because “contention is of Satan” is actually following Satan. Satan despises the truth, so avoiding truth, even very difficult truth which truth is IN YOUR SCRIPTURES IF YOU READ THEM, is of Satan.

    Satan has ironically enough gotten you to quote a scripture calling out his plan, while at the same time getting you to follow his plan. Irony….oh Irony.

    and one final note.

    at some point somewhere, one of the crazy voices in the wilderness must be correct. we cannot all be wrong so you cannot dismiss us all just because of your aforementioned scriptures warning about multiple voices….some of these voices are actually spot on. some are like unto Enoch who is called a “wild man” and some are like John the baptist and yet a lot are deceivers but we are all shouting from the wilderness.

    decide wisely through prayer and faith in God The Father and His Son Jesus Christ through the power of The Holy Ghost.

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  10. Adam, I can appreciate your perspective, passion and desiring to step further towards Christ!

    It is interesting that you utilize both scripture and the examples, of Christ, Moses and Captain Moroni to discuss and describe a particular type of “meekness”. To my knowledge (please correct me if I am wrong) not a single written word we have currently comes from any of these individuals directly — from them, written by their hand and handed to us. Please do not take this to mean, that I am going to discount all holy writ.

    I just find it interesting that, it appears, that individuals can read into scriptures 2nd, 3rd, 4th … times removed and speak definitively that Christ said this, Christ meant this, Christ’s behaviors say this.

    Now certainly, if an individual wants to speak for Christ, or has, through the power of the Holy Ghost, received pure knowledge about a specific quality or attribute, and now with proper understanding, utilizes that knowledge to go about doing good (charity being the vehicle for that goodness), well, that is one thing.

    It has taken me some time to come to the place where I finally realize that my “interpretation” of scriptures, really says more to where I am at, where my heart is, rather than the actual mind and will of God (and maybe this is exactly there purpose).

    Remember, (at least given the history and scriptures we do have), none of these folks established and maintained Zion. The ones who did establish and maintain Zion, well, they were taken.

    If we are to go where others “failed,” we have to “look” and “see” what and where they were unable to “look” and “see”. The individuals I tend to pay very close attention to seem to create and write scripture, rather than read** and interpret scripture.

    We are missing something 🙂

    **yes, I completely KNOW how important it is to read “scripture”. The comment is made for emphasis.

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    • Hi Nathan,

      This is just out of mere curiosity and I certainly respect however you answer. You included Jesus in your comment, and then continued on and seemed to be talking about the same people (moses, Jesus, and captain moroni) and mentioned things they were “unable” to do or unable to see etc. and mentioned that none of them built up Zion.
      So I am taking your comment at face value. Are you suggesting that Enoch or Melchizedek did something Jesus couldn’t do? I am curious because it could be reasonably assessed that if people took joseph smiths comment about being able to do things Jesus couldn’t do in keeping a church together, and having more to boast of than any man (assuming church history is accurate) then you could very well have meant exactly what you said. So I am just curious if you believe Jesus was any different from other great teachers, or prophets, and perhaps even inferior to some in that he was unable to do or perceive certain things? If you could give a plain answer I would appreciate it. Some people I talk to who believe Jesus was another human just like the rest of us won’t say it openly which I understand they don’t want to cause a hissy fit but I sure would like to hear your thoughts and there will be no argument from my end it just piqued my interest.

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    • Nathan — (I quote you):

      “It has taken me some time to come to the place where I finally realize that my “interpretation” of scriptures, really says more to where I am at, where my heart is, rather than the actual mind and will of God (and maybe this is exactly there purpose).”

      This one paragraph succinctly illustrates how we all have lenses that at best are “seeing through the glass darkly”. And in seeing we preach our own doctrine.

      Those who produced Zion, i.e. Enoch, were Mastered by the Lord personally and did all that they were commanded to do and did it so effectively well — but they had a people of ONE HEART and ONE MIND. How wonderful to enjoy a group of individuals more concerned with others and not themselves.

      I believe the Lord did produce Zion! The people of the Book of Mormon lived a Zion society for some 200 years after the Lord’s personal ministry among them as found in 3 Nephi. Some of the most beautiful Holy Writ is found in these chapters where the Lord taught His people and it changed them, their children, their children’s children, and another generation beyond that. They were of one heart!

      I thoroughly enjoyed your post. It was refreshing. The words we use with others is more a reflection of where we are at and really has nothing at all to do with where the other person’s position in life is. Thank you Nathan.

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  11. Nathan Shackelford, great comment, it really struck me.

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  12. @ Mi-yo-1

    My post seemed to stick together a number of experiences I have been receiving, having lately.

    There are multiple layers to knowledge and understanding. I do not believe that Melchizedek, Enoch, Joseph or any other man has done “more” or “less” than Christ. I do not believe that eternity necessitates such language. Each of them came to earth and experienced and manifested exactly what they did. I do not “compare” and “contrast” individuals that way.

    I have come to earth at this time to experience and manifest certain things. I did not want to come across as comparing Christ, or other men, to each other. That said, I, again, am here at this time, to produce or manifest a specific outcome. How can I do this? How will this be accomplished?

    My post come from a very sacred space inside of me that has connected with Heaven, and “sees” a very specific outcome. It is completely up to me, my part, and the “fellowship” to which I belong to bring about this outcome. Across my lifespan, in my learning and working through a number of things, I erroneously misplaced, displaced, much of my inner “dross” and my “gold”. On some level, and in some ways, both must be reclaimed, owned and taken responsibility for. Meaning, that I must develop the ability to respond to what is inside of me.

    I have long studied not so much the content produced by certain individuals, but their process in cultivating, creating and manifesting. My post spoke to this process, not to compare or evaluate those who have come before us and say they did or didn’t accomplish certain things, but to note to myself, the “reality” that is 2015. We can never really be ONE in “content”. Such is the experience that is this kingdom to which we currently reside. We can only be one in “process” … engaging in the process to which the “ancients” engaged in. We can not fear, for example, that experiences such as “prophet” “seer” and “revelator” lie within each of us. We can not over look the developmental process that each and every one of these ancient and modern women and men of Christ went through to reach the outcome to which they manifested. All of that lies within each of us. I sincerely do not wish to be trite, or whimsical. I understand the words that I am saying.

    Individuals have certain “missions” or experiences to which they come here to mortality to manifest. It is not a comparing thing, and I did not mean to state unequivocally that Christ did not bring about Zion, and that others did. What Christ did and accomplished is supernal, unequivocal, as are our lives, when considered in the grand scheme of things.

    The words I wrote, were largely to myself, recording where I am at, and where I intend to step. For me, and my path, there have been enough of using scriptures and quotes to argue truth and project at others. It is not possible in this kingdom to have a “unity” of truth. But, there can be a “unity” in Christ, a “unity” in goodness. And we can, without reservation. point each other to Christ, a fulfilling of the “laws” of this kingdom and allow for a stepping into “higher” experiences. We can truly demonstrate the qualities and attributes of Christ with and among each other.

    I have long since spent much of my time projecting my “dross” and “gold” onto others. In the development that is leaving our “earthly” fellowships, for eternal “fellowships” we must reclaim and process through these earthly projections. You see, as I have done this, Heaven has answered with a ladder that extends the earthly ladder’s ability to mirror back my not only my own telestial projections, but provided for an endowment. Each of us are a living endowment. It is very much the intention of Christ, and Heaven, to teach and allow for the development, realization and manifestation of eternal qualities and attributes. Where natural and fallen men “fail,” Heaven bends and provides a bridge to deeper experiences to develop faith and manifest charity.

    In my own “tongue” and in my own “language,” God has spoken to me specific to the ladder that I need to climb and the experiences, even “true messengers” that are sent to reveal me to myself. It is such a systemic process. This process is done in complete conjunction with and my willingness to lower myself, and lift, serve, elevate and exalt others (which to me allows for a fuller understanding of “priesthood”).

    Eventually, and I know this is truth (at least along my path), there does in deed come a time when their is no longer a need to displace. There is no longer a need to project, and thus no longer looking through a glass darkly, as “I see as I am seen” and “know as I am known.” In that space there is no need for projection, no need for judgment, no deception. In this space there is charity, goodness and priesthood.

    If I might add, and I do this with no egoic attempt to “high five” or give pats on the back of anyone but Christ. This is one of the reasons I keep tabs on Tim’s blog. Tim is a man of God. In my heart, when Tim taps into that space, into his identity and relationship, his words and experiences have power. I am not speaking about his ability to be a virtual Ping-Back for Snuffer’s blog or content. I am speaking of posts such as his testimony of alters and using the true order of prayer, as one example. I am speaking of Tim’s pure heart, and his deepening relationship with Christ. That, to me, is a “prophet”. That to me is an example of writing “scripture”. Tim is an example of an earthly “fellowship” worth maintaining.

    There are other examples …

    Right now I am very much aware of my “Gentile” habits, addictions (such as judgment, choosing to be deceived, deceiving others, displacement, unbelief, etc.) and perceptions. The last month or so has been grueling, like razor blades to my eyes. And now standing without another layer of my illusions I feel naked, abandoned and hungry (if not metaphorically) … and you know what, at least in one person’s eyes, this is ironically an extremely safe place.

    Mi-yo-1 … I have always been comfortable with both your posts and questions. Very insightful. May I bless you and encourage your deepening relationship with Christ, and into eternity! Sorry for the not-so-plain answer.

    PS. I just went back and read your comment and wanted to give a “plain” answer, lol. Judgment of men is not necessary, period. Here and in eternity, judgment is both a stumbling block and a barrier. Christ’s very existence and ministry provide a meta-structure for all those who “succeeded” in manifesting what was their’s to manifest in their experienced lifetime(s). While Christ has literally brought me to my knees, even laying on the ground, I have never, ever experienced Christ as one to be “high-fived” “praised” or engaged from afar. Yes, I experience Christ 🙂

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