A Forum for Latter-day Commentary


approaching-the-heavenly-giftThere is an interesting discussion taking place over at the LDS Freedom Forum. For those who aren’t members of the “Approaching the Heavenly Gift” sub-forum, here are the details below (removed).

I have been asked to consider turning on the forum feature on this WordPress blog. It’s an easy thing to do and a relatively easy thing to administer, but is it worth it? Will people participate? Comments are open for discussion.

Update: The LDC Forums are up: https://latterdaycommentary.com/forums/

<Contents of the post removed at request of owner>

Here is the link to the LDS Freedom Forum in general: http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/

30 Responses

  1. Tim,
    You already know how I feel about you setting up a sub forum here, but for the record, you should do it!

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  2. You know why would seriously be awesome, is if someone should set up a forum with all of those different Mormon sub-groups, harmston, RLDS, LDS, hendrickite, snuffer, and all the rest, and of course one that does not advocate any of them, and then have a forum where they could all interact and learn from each other and debate etc.
    Why exclude and limit? Why do people feel threatened by other points of view? Is Brian worried by having a snuffer forum that it will lead people away from his particular brand of truth? I don’t know how churches scare their members into thinking it is sinning to read other points of view or conflicting testimonies or interpretations of history.
    The LDS church leaders, as well as many other religious leaders, give their insecurity away by dissuading people from studying other points of view. If they are sure they have the truth, they should encourage studying from every religion and way of life to truly learn for themselves that there is no greater truth out there. Or, if people leave, they should at least trust that God is sifting people in their opinion and all things are in the Lords hands. There can be no pure motive in my opinion for fear mongering and warning people not to read opposing views. The day david whitmers testimony became “anti-Mormon” in the eyes of the saints was a great victory for the legions of hell. Now even accurate history or word for word quotes of joseph smith or brigham young are even considered anti-Mormon by some people. Everything is back-asswards.
    Another sign to look for is when people do not welcome others of a particular group because they are afraid they will lose members of their club. It shows they do not have faith that God could reveal the truth to the members of the other club. Brian could look at snuffer discussion as an opportunity to share greater truth if he believes them misguided, but instead he worries about people promoting snuffer able to influence others towards snuffer. So interesting. We see the unsure footing at every turn. If we are convinced that someone is teaching falsehood or acting as a false prophet, why not let it run it’s course. Trust that truth, at some point will render it’s own validity and wash the falsehoods away. We are seeing the beginnings of the crumbling of the LDS church right now, it will continue to schism and split and crumble until all the false mortar is washed away and what will stand in the end will be the truth.

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    • Minorityofone
      I get your point and concur for the most part.
      Personally I don’t feel “threatened” by other points of view, if I did I wouldn’t find myself in the position I’m in.
      The key for me is this. I have endless opportunities to debate my beliefs, I just like to have a place to go and discuss those beliefs with people who think similarly.
      I grow tired debating these things endlessly, I don’t have anything to prove and no need look for additional opportunities to do so!
      I fully understand the need for the healthy discussions of alternate views and even debate them, but not all the time! And places to debate are everywhere!

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    • Amen, minorityofone. I wonder what people are really wanting out of these social media sites. Are people wanting polite afternoon tea conversations? Where everyone wears the proper attire, displays excellent manners, and never does or says anything to draw undo attention or shock the present company? Religion and politics have never conformed to those kinds of niceties.

      Growth does not happen in a vacuum. Muscles do not grow without contrasting push-pull motions. There is too much diversity in this world. The only way understanding of all the different ways to believe and think will be achieved is to allow people the time and space (cyber for this discussion) to express themselves…without feeling it is personal in any way. Utopia for any discussion forum will only be achieved when each individual chooses not to react, not to defend themselves (and their beliefs), and choose instead to view everyone through a lens of love and patience. It can be done, but the self (ego, natural man/woman) must be left behind.

      Maybe it is the ego that needs to be shunned from LDSFF. Everyone is at a different place on their journey through this life. I don’t give a monkey’s butt if someone wants to call themselves any manner of -ite. It’s just part of learning about what one believes and feels…about self, this world, and God. (I’m super done with all the labeling.) Sure, I’d love to see every face and heart turned to God the Father, but I don’t control other people. So, I’ll let Father worry about His children and just focus on my own path of self-expression while respecting others who are doing the same thing. This whole shebang has been a good reminder to me of doing that. I know I need to do better, so I’m grateful for this pause.

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      • Lori,
        There are those, who aren’t out looking for a fight, its not about ego. People who aren’t interested in how things have been done in the past regarding politics and religion. No interest in showing off their intellect or debating skills. They are seeking something better.
        Just peaceable followers of Christ who would cringe at comments like the one you just made. People who we will never hear from if they aren’t given a place to share their beliefs or concerns in safety.
        Those humble people often have great things to say and I for one have enjoyed listening to them.
        But it just won’t happen in an open forum, it’s really pretty simple!
        Maybe that’s not here. Maybe they will just go away and keep to themselves!

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    • Nate, I appreciate the input. I think you’re right. We should not be afraid of learning about other religious views. Fear mongering is detrimental to building faith in the living God. We know God is active in his work among all faiths. It would behoove us to learn a few things about those activities. Civil discussion leads to understanding.

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  3. Recently, this particular gold nugget was absolutely necessary for me. A necessary discussion of “truth” and “goodness”.

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  4. I did feel like he was trying to hypnotize me just a little bit with his testimony voice. But what I loved most was his punctuation with eye-brows and knowing smiles. 🙂 Oh yeah. And I did keep waiting for him to start playing the piano hidden below camera and bust into spontaneous song. Love it though. I laughed, I cried. And that’s just in the first 10 minutes. I’m gonna watch the rest of this. Thanks, Nathan. Love and Peace.

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    • Lol!! Jesef…I know the “package” will totally throw people, and that is ok. What I needed and what spoke so deeply was the message. Just one a few few core experiences lately. Peace in Christ.

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      • I watched the rest of that video and it was both entertaining and enlightening! Thanks for linking to it! I may watch the rest of his 149 videos (yikes!)…

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  5. Nathan,

    Thanks for the video I am part way through and found some edification. He is almost describing nirvana it seems. So here is the thing about all of this that is hilarious and I hope you will consider this with me. So often we see the teaching that “the way” or “the highest truth” or the “realm beyond” involves meekness, it involves knowing that truth is relative, and everyone’s truth is just as valid as everyone elses, and the highest truth needs no defense.
    Ok so didn’t I just actually list a creed by saying that? People often state their creed by saying there should be no creed. “Goodness is the truth that can’t be conceptualized.” See how he just stated a doctrine. “People who have to defend their truth are manifesting their insecurity.” Ok so that is judgment and doctrine, and a huge stereotype. Stay with me here. People who often go on these websites and make comments preach how all there is is love, and we need not debate, and all the other stuff that you and I are both familiar with, but in those comments, they unknowingly, and arguably hypocritically, are preaching that their way is better, that the way of “love” and “goodness” and “everyone is on their own journey” is the highest way. Our friend on the video pointed out not just some falsehood in others thinking, but actually that it is all falsehood, so he actually thought the “truth” was that everyone was wrong. Hmmm. So I guess what I am saying is that, when people talk about these things about how we are all one, and everyones journey is individual and valid and there is no need for conflict, then they are judging themselves to hold that particular knowledge that others lack, and therefore they themselves are guilty of the very thing they preach against. Ha ha anyway to say that it is better to avoid conflict or withdraw from confrontation is actually casting judgment on those who do participate in conflict or confrontation, and they believe they have the higher way. It is just another belief system, with a certain amount of truth, that they believe is better/higher/more loving, or whatever that is DIFFERENT from other people. This guy who claimed that the “goodness” beyond truth cannot be conceptualized, and needs no defense, sure took a long time conceptualizing it, and preaching it, and for some reason thought it was worth sharing with others, as if he had some higher truth to offer the world. So with all of that terrible explanation perhaps you can sense the meaning of the comment. Thanks bro

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    • Whoa, you’re on a roll here today. 😉

      Well, I know that when I speak of people striving to not react and get defensive when discussing so-called “hot button topics” it’s not because I think my way of handling such matters is best or “the highest truth.” I am a big proponent of trying to stay in a place of love for others. It’s just what I feel right in this moment, based on my own life experience. And I could very well be wrong. That also could change as I continue to grow. But apparently there is a place called Zion that God took up because it had achieved…something.

      All I understand at this season of my life is that I have expended way too much energy debating over ideas and beliefs about God and a whole slew of topics. And the Good Lord knows how I love to share online. I also enjoy hearing what other people think and believe. It helps round out my own thoughts. Others may not share my opinion on that though. But I can only truly control my own response, internally and externally, to other people. Life, for me, feels much more harmonious and peaceful when I just quit taking on responsibility for what other people want to say, do, or believe and allow them to live life. And I feel it is perfectly correct for me to honour that belief for myself without expecting that others should do the same. But if the subject comes up, I’ll share my thoughts about it. 🙂 Maybe it will resonate with someone else, or maybe it will just be me validating my own heart. It seems that avoiding the judgment of others you are speaking of is mighty difficult to achieve as long as people continue to speak out loud what they think.

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      • I absolutely agree thank you for that comment. I think that it is possible to love, and openly disagree, and be very candid and forthright and not mask out meaning in political correctness. There is a very good chance someone saying something with zero ill feelings or intent will be perceived as an angry warmonger, simply because if anyone lays out something opposing closely held beliefs, especially in a logical manner, it will be perceived as a threat and an attack.

        By the way I believe love to be the highest truth and self evident principle. What I was referring to was how people act “loving” but the focus is on the way they say things or what they do not say or how they behave, when in reality those things can be done with or without any positive attributes at all. There was a time in my life where I would look at the nauvoo expositor or the address to all believers with abhorrence and I perceived their writing to be out of anger and revenge and pride and hate. That is because I never even asked God and relies on my own faulty judgment. Once I took the beam from my eye and actually decided to seek to obtain the Lords judgment and not judge wrongfully (using my own intellect and perception to judge the writers intent and heart) then my whole perception changed with a few simple confirmations and teachings from what I call The Spirit.

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  6. The LDC Forums are up: https://latterdaycommentary.com/forums/

    This will be very fluid and dynamic over the next few days as we get the basic structure down. Thanks for Nate for the initial suggestion of the categories.

    Thanks to John D for the initial suggestion and to Toward Zion for his PM thoughts. Not sure we can implement all his ideas right away. We’re wide open for now.

    Haven’t come up with the rules or guidelines yet. Should have that by the weekend. I’ve got a hectic work schedule over the next two days with a major system upgrade.

    This is purely an experiment. Forums are useless without participation. The objective is to fill a vacuum that will soon exist when LDS Freedom Forum drops AHG.

    Your faith and prayers that this will help advance the work of the Lord will be greatly appreciated. I hate contention, but love discussion. Please, please, please be nice.

    When people aren’t nice, that’s when rules and membership requirements come into play. If you’re not interested in Snuffer, for example, don’t go there to bash him.

    Yeah, that’s a naïve statement and I know it. You want you won favorite category? Let me know and I’ll see if it fits on the primary menu or if we need to broaden them.

    Above all, I say again: A forum is useless without participation. A Voice of Warning and Freedom Forum are successful because of community, and that’s you.

    May God bless this endeavor to bring unity and understanding among us. Please tell your friends and post this link everywhere: https://latterdaycommentary.com/forums/

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  7. Regarding ATHG closing, I sorrow greatly. I too, have no interest in defending my beliefs, only in learning from those who are in a similar vein.

    An open forum, I fear, won’t allow for sincerity and openness.

    Pardon me, for a moment, while I shed a few tears.

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    • I did my best to encourage Brian to keep ATHG open, it looked at one time as if he may, but a sudden change led to its closure. I agree with you about shedding a tear.

      I described ATHG as a jewel and I believe it was, I loved moderating there as there was so little contention. That said, the jewel was the people who made up the forum and their attitude of love and discussion.

      Although I believe that will be not be found in the structure proposed in LDSFF, if Tim structures his forum correctly then it can be replicated. Go Tim Go 🙂

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  8. Tim, it says I have to log in to comment, but it appears that I am logged in to comment here on your blog.

    How do I log in to comment on your new forum?

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    • I’ll get the details and post them here in a few minutes. Thanks for asking. That’s an obviously important question. Hopefully we can tie blog identities to the forum. Stand by…

      Update: I turned on anonymous posting for now. All it requires is to put in your name (anything you want), your email address (it obviously takes a fake one) and a website (can also be fake). Many people want to publicize their websites so they visit forums just to leave comments with a link to their website. In any event, you or anybody should now be able to post a response or even start a new topic. Thanks for asking Lizzie. Things may change later.

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      • Thanks for taking on the challenge Tim. I hope this forum you’re considering will be a good new home for those of us who feel they are losing an important part of their community with the demise of the ATHG forum. I echo johnd and lady believer’s sentiments above.

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  9. @mi-yo-1

    I completely know what you are saying in your referencing the individual in the video and speaking of the message. I made this comment the other day about how very much our language is fallen and corrupt. And that the internet only complicates this process.

    Blogging, writing, speaking (ie. lectures), logic, reasoning, quotes, scriptures … (at least my historical use and knowledge of these activities) are so very much a masculine energy experience.

    For me the message spoke to acknowledging the qualities and attributes of “knowledge” and “understanding” (ie. goodness) and the culminating “wisdom” that comes when both are experienced.

    Where is all the fruits from the various “boxes” of truth being exchanged back and forth on these blogs (yes, in some ways this is very much a rhetorical question)?

    For me, I can’t help but experience a very much absent feminine experience via the blog-o-sphere? Not completely, but where is the inclusion, creativity, deep listening, receiving and sacred space? To me this represents the “understanding” and “goodness” that is so much missing?

    In the past I have used “knowledge” (logic, truth, scriptures, quotes, etc.) like bullets.

    I recognize the need for communication … well, I take that back. I recognize the need for communion. I recognize the need for “truth” as you speak of it.

    There is very much a different energy to communication and communion, between egoic exchanges and oneness.

    I agree that the experience of “everything is love,” the phrase that can be thrown around as we exile, and shadow all our unresolved issues can quickly turn into a fast moving train straight to hell and our own destruction. But this isn’t the love or experience I am referring to.

    I have often experience ego as contending, comparing, confronting, competing and controlling.

    That energy is in very stark contrast to the experience of communion and oneness.

    Now, given, because of the vehicle that is blogging, intuitively and experientially feeling into “energy” across this experience is difficult at best.

    Anyway, I totally get the points you made … again, my questions (for my own growth and development) …

    For all the blogging, exchanging of “truth” and debate…

    Where is the experience of understanding, goodness and charity?
    Where is the experience of priesthood?
    In what ways are we ending deception (choosing to be deceived and deceiving others)?
    In what ways, even implicitly, are we turning one another to Christ?
    In what ways does our communication increase our responsibility (ability to respond) to Heaven, to Christ, to priesthood, to the Powers of Heaven … to goodness and allowing for more charity?
    In what ways are we reducing our pats on the back and high fiving one another and developing and embodying the qualities and attributes of Christ?

    Again … I’m all about receiving truth and knowledge. God knows he has come to me, and in those most intense “endings” to a long search, the Heavenly bestowal of pure knowledge … wow. But the application of that “pure knowledge”. Its temporing with the feminine or understanding …. and its application via goodness and charity.

    There is a refining for me! Like a little boy attempting to “man” a fire hose … there must be understanding with, allowing for the fruits of wisdom.

    Bless you!

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    • Nathan,

      Thanks that was beautiful and I agree that about the male energy being used way to often. I think Tim’s new forums will bring less confrontation and more edification. We shall see. Nothing but love my friend. Some people who disagree so openly on this weird thing we call the internet would probably be great friends with consistent edification face to face. Peace

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  10. Is there any point to having the TLC – Harmston forum? He died of a heart attack on June 27, 2013 and his failed movement is dead too. They were disappointed by Christ not showing up on March 25, 2000, in the upper room of their Temple to inaugurate His Second Coming to the world, appearing to them first (as His “chosen” and loyal servants).

    I guess if no one joins or starts topics in any of the other sub-forums (besides Denver Snuffer), they will just die on the vine, so can’t hurt and it will be interesting if anyone does…

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    • Hi JeseF – Probably not, but so many people are aware of that movement because it was in recent history so I added a few notes from Wikipedia as a reference. By the way, it was from Jim’s group I received a copy of “Further Light and Knowledge” about prayer circles in the home. This was right after I was ordained a High Priest and called into the bishopric some twenty years ago. I was flabbergasted. I made the mistake of asking the temple president about it. He quickly escorted me out of his office and said, “The Brethren have asked us to keep prayer circles in the temple.” Not many people know the history of the prayer circle in Stake Centers until 1978.

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  11. While I am pleased to see a variety of Forums to post in, I would like to see a Last Days forum where comments could be made about current events and prophecies.

    I’m not sure if you can make any of these Private, but there are many of the remnant and dissatisfied members who would prefer not to have their thoughts and feelings public. Also the ability to re-edit your posts would be fantastic so we can repair our errors

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    • Yep. I’ve fielded several PMs about privacy. I’m keeping it open until sometime this weekend mainly because I’ve been so swamped with work I haven’t had time to set it up properly. Last Days forum is being added in a moment. It’s funny, I just joined two LDS-themed Facebook groups on the Last Days. I’m more of a lurker on Facebook. I like to see what everyone else is writing about. When I have something to share, well…that’s why the blog is for. Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll see what options the BB Forum software offers. It’s rated the highest and most used, but is missing some features that can be found in fee-based add-ons. Who knows, I may change it later.

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  12. Hey Tim….do you have a copy of that “further light and knowledge” that i can take a look at? or tell me the site you downloaded it from?

    and I agree with posting all offshoots of mormonism….I think its an important history lesson especially because at the end of the day, this is what this is and historically speaking, virtually all offshoots have failed miserably.

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    • There are thirteen chapters – about 200-250 pages total. Here are the links:

      http://3tcm.net/FLK_TOC.pdf
      http://3tcm.net/FLK_Chapter1.pdf
      http://3tcm.net/FLK_Chapter2.pdf
      http://3tcm.net/FLK_Chapter3.pdf
      http://3tcm.net/FLK_Chapter4.pdf
      http://3tcm.net/FLK_Chapter5.pdf
      http://3tcm.net/FLK_Chapter6.pdf
      http://3tcm.net/FLK_Chapter7.pdf
      http://3tcm.net/FLK_Chapter8.pdf
      http://3tcm.net/FLK_Chapter9.pdf
      http://3tcm.net/FLK_Chapter10.pdf
      http://3tcm.net/FLK_Chapter10_part2.pdf
      http://3tcm.net/FLK_Chapter11.pdf
      http://3tcm.net/FLK_Chapter12.pdf
      http://3tcm.net/FLK_Chapter13.pdf

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      • thanks for those.

        chapter 6 link is broken….got another?

        and yeah I would like to read the whole book actually.

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        • Link was OK – document wasn’t uploaded yet. They all are now. Chapter 10 is probably the most interesting, or at least that’s the one most people discussed back in the day.

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        • thanks….I will take a look through all of this this week.

          the chapter 10 title does sound interesting….but truthfully the entire table of contents sounds interesting.

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