Call for Tithing Conference


money-pitThis is the initial call for conference for a worldwide Conference on Tithing Experiences.

On 4-12-14 an invitation was extended to gather into fellowships and begin a tithing experiment. We were encouraged to govern ourselves and avoid contention and jarrings in caring for the poor among us and in distribution of tithing funds. We have had over a year to work out the kinks in each of our own fellowships and to put enough experience behind us to have established good hindsight of our own successes and failures.

As individual voices in our groups we have worked forward and learned what worked best for us and what caused problems. We have had time to iron out wrinkles in our process. Each fellowship has had their own methods and unique challenges.

The purpose of this conference is to facilitate communication between the fellowships.  Perhaps a particular solution found by one group is fitting for another, or there were problems that have been worked though by one group that another is just beginning to experience and council can be given and accepted. Again, the purpose is to facilitate communication, that we may be closer and more towards one body.

Malachi3What this conference is NOT:

This is not a call to further organize or hasten anything. This is not a call to discover a “right” way or a “wrong” way. What worked well for one group may be disastrous for another. This is not a call to correlate. This is not a call to organize funds, although of course individual fellowships are free to work together if one group is experiencing a surplus and another overwhelming need.

This call for conference is the initial call, asking that those who wish to participate can share a voice in the organization of the conference. As the purpose of the conference is to facilitate communication, we are looking at options to increase participation outside of a physical gathering, although that will occur. There have been suggestions of podcasts afterwards, webcast of Conference, web conference, transcripts of talks, etc..

If you are interested in having a voice in the organizational effort please have a representative contact us at remnantministry555@gmail.com or use our contact page http://www.remnantministry.org/contact.html

jesus-healing-blind-manThis call to conference was put forth by Remnant Ministry fellowship, second by Little Zion. Note from Little Zion: We don’t like any formal meetings. We don’t like any control. We don’t like any leaders. That is what we have felt in our group. But we love all you guys so if you wanna hang for a weekend and talk about the gospel, then we’re game.

 

60 Responses

  1. After reading your call for tithing conference and the purpose for which it is being called, I’m still unsure what the purpose for which it is being called. “The purpose of this conference is to facilitate communication between the fellowships.”

    Being new here, I’m unfamiliar with what these “fellowships” are and represent. Perhaps you can explain to we newbies just what this really is all about. Sorry to sound like a doofus, but, hey, I’m a doofus.

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  2. Nice enthusiasm, but dull thud on the spirit here. Just a personal opinion, but thinking that if individuals and small tithing groups will go direct to the Lord to be tutored and counseled about how to organize and administer tithing and offerings, and forbear in lateral peer based chat on the topic, then astounding things may happen. Nevertheless, wishing you well on the endeavor.

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  3. I can’t even imagine why we would want to get together with others who seek Zion?
    Why would anyone want to hang out with likeminded people?
    How could any good come from people sharing their experiences providing for the poor?
    As a matter of fact what’s with these fellowships anyway, why do people need to get together, pool tithing funds for the poor or take the sacrament, just do it by yourself in your own home!
    Why read the scriptures? Who needs some ancient dudes counsel, just go to the Lord and get from Him!
    Yes, now that I think of it, I can’t see a reason for any of Gods children to get together and lift each other. If you’re so weak you need to be with others of like mind well, maybe you’re just not the Lords!
    Tim, going along this line of thinking, why in the world do you have this blog still up? If you’re anyone worth the Lords time you will get all you need from Him. Now that I think of it, I’ve decided to become a monk and find myself a cave, good bye everybody!!

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    • Ok now that I’ve had my morning caffeine, I have decided NOT to become a monk and live in a cave!
      Although I’m still active LDS and not part of a fellowship, I am holding my tithing in an account trying to decide what to do with it. Maybe I should after all come to this conference and see what has been learned by those who have experience.
      I have never heard of these people in this ministry, but hey, maybe I‘ll join in with them, from the web page it sounds like their doing some exciting things with the homeless.
      (Less sarcasm was involved in this versus the prior post)

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    • That (first comment) was hilarious, JohnD. Thanks for the laugh.

      Toni

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      • Oops. I voted twice for you (thumbs up). Not sure how it let me do that.

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    • Wow! So many good points. This sounds exactly like an earlier version of Denver.

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  4. You could call this gathering “the Council on the Disposition of the Tithes,” or “Counseling with Our Councils.” Oh wait, I think those have been taken (and possibly trademarked).

    I’m just kidding, btw. 🙂 And watching, always watching…

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  5. Can there be organization without hierarchy? Can there be hierarchy without leadership? Can there be leadership without formal meetings?

    And why is it always about the money?

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    • Why is “IT” always about the money??
      Well this groups “IT” is giving to the poor! Perhaps one group may learn from another group what kind of successes they have enjoyed in feeding the hungry and clothing the naked!
      As far as some groups “IT” office buildings, malls, hierarchy and such, they need to ask their bishop why “ITS” always about “IT”.
      If you want to call someone saying lets get together and share ideas a hierarchy well ok!

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  6. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

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    • This is why Zion has not happened and why its chances are so slim. Nobody wants to believe, just proclaim higher understanding and say all who try are fools.
      I have been reading this fellowships web page and the things they are doing IS ZION. But look at all the garbage they are getting from a simple call to get together, share and lift!
      All the same??

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  7. JohnD,

    Is this you trying to engage in conversation, or is it instead you making sure one doesn’t happen?

    Because if it’s the first, you might try answering my questions. If it’s the second, well, don’t worry. I’ll just ignore you from here on out.

    Your choice.

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    • Log
      You’re a lot smarter than me so I think you get my point!
      As far as leadership and hierarchy. What is your definition of it?
      I have no involvement in a fellowship that is pooling tithes to give to the poor.
      I do not know this group who made the call to have a conference.
      However can a bunch of people get together and discuss ideas without a leader? I say yes. Would there be the need for people to help in the meetings organization? Sure. Do you call that hierarchy? Leadership?
      Your implication, as I saw it, was that this was Denver calling this meeting. Maybe even so he could get his hands some that MONEY?

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      • As I see it the “concern” or accusation people have about this movement is that there is, or will be a hierarchy and as you said, or should I say The Who, here’s the new boss, same as the old.
        If a fellowship gets together and someone helps get it organized each week is that person a leader?
        To me a leader and especially a member of a hierarchy would require them to make, in some way, the operations taking place in the group to be the way they require, or even demand, over what others in the group may think?

        The real 900 pound gorilla in the conversation is the “example” of the LDS church, which is what most are seeing as similar or dissimilar to what these fellowships are trying to do.

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        • Lots of fear, it looks like.

          There was a lot of fear in regards to the get-together in Colorado. Nothing bad happened. In fact, God opened the way for me to go and tempered the weather so that not only was I not caught in a snowstorm, I traveled very good (mostly clear of rain) roads.

          People were lifted up spiritually there. They got to hang out with like-minded people. It was a little too organized for me (but I’m of the Little Zion mentality), but the fear mongering was huge in comparison to the Spirit that was actually poured out when the experience was going on.

          My general rule of thumb is: If people are terrified of it even though it is apparently harmless, if fear-mongering is going on, then what -exactly- is it that the devils don’t want me to participate in? I’d better attend just to see what great outpouring of the Spirit scares the devils so much that they try to terrify people into not attending.

          Toni

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  8. Your implication, as I saw it, was that this was Denver calling this meeting. Maybe even so he could get his hands some that MONEY?

    I’m pretty sure Snuffer has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

    I’m also not sure what there is to discuss about the gospel, if it is not to simply repeat the teachings of the Lord.

    “Give unto every man that asketh, and of them that would borrow from thee, turn them not away, but lend, hoping for nothing again. If any man sue thee at law for thy coat, let him have it; and if he sue thee again for thy cloak, let him have that too; if any man compel thee to go a mile, go a mile, and if he compel thee to go with him twain, thou shalt go with him twain. Verily I say I would that ye should do alms, but when ye give alms, ye shall not do as the hypocrites do, for they do their alms to be seen of men; verily I say unto you, they have their reward. But thou, when thou doest thine alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. And as ye would men should do unto you, do ye unto them likewise.”

    Etc.

    One doesn’t need a fellowship to do these things.

    One doesn’t need to hold a meeting to discuss how to do these things.

    One either does them, or one does them not.

    But if people want to outsource their discipleship out of convenience, if they wish to appoint a central tithing distributor, if they wish to appoint priests and teachers to teach them, if they wish to assign roles, and so on, they’re welcome to it. If they wish to hire speakers to teach them mysteries, well, they can do that too. And if in the end they want a replacement hierarchy, complete with leadership accessories, then what is the point? They have one set up already. Seems the only real difference in that case is who’s running the show.

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    • So using that mind set why do you spend so much time on these blogs? Isn’t this your version of fellowshipping?
      My opinion living the gospel of Jesus Christ CANNOT be properly done as a monk in a cave, with or without internet services.
      Some people, actually find strength and enjoyment in communing with others of like thinking, elbow to elbow versus mouse to mouse!
      You keep going back to the LDS model of priests and central tithing I just don’t get your apparent concerns.
      Did you go to this groups web page? They are out on the streets blessing the homeless. They and many other groups don’t sound like the people you keep wanting to describe.

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      • JohnD,

        You’re welcome to your opinions.

        You mentioned you have your tithing stored up in an account. You also mentioned finding strength and enjoyment in communing with like-thinkers. I’m not sure what you mean, since the strength and enjoyment have not led to you distributing your goods to the poor, as the Savior taught, by your own admission – therefore, the strength and enjoyment you mention have not helped you keep the Lord’s commandments, which I paraphrased above, if keeping the Lord’s commandments is your goal. So what do you mean by strength and enjoyment? Strength to do what? Enjoyment of what?

        If you don’t understand my point, why don’t you ask clarifying questions? Is truth your goal, or is winning your goal?

        Because I am not sure Zion will be populated by those who have to win.

        I am also not sure that Zion will be populated by those who will only keep the commandments if they are ensconced in a society of like-thinkers.

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        • Log
          Know this, I AM the biggest monk in the room! I’m preaching to myself here as much as anyone and the Lord has rebuked me for being so much of a loner..
          And no worries, I’m still giving to the poor in spite of having an account I haven’t decided who to give it too. I am and will continue to listen to the spirit on the matter.
          And you are welcome to your opinions also of course, I do actually get what you’re saying!
          I’m just trying to make point, that perhaps we all worship in different ways.
          Maybe those in Zion will all be very different? The Lord has been known to hangout with some oddballs, as the world sees them anyway!
          I didn’t mean to offend, I just saw people hammering these folks for wanting to get together and the papa bear came out in me!
          Sorry!

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  9. To answer two other questions:

    1. No, I’m not fellowshipping online. Online, I am only warily tolerated some of the time, and contended against and rejected the rest of the time.

    2. My concern is simple: hierarchy arises from and perpetuates abuse. But, as the song says, some people want to abuse you; some people want to be abused. Some want to lead, others want to be led.

    But good luck.

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    • I love your comments and I most definitely get your concerns about potential abuses and the fact that if one is not communing with the Lord these get togethers are just that!
      My hope is that maybe one of these times a group of people will be able to coexist without the mad dash for power and authority! Why not now?

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  10. It doesn’t occur as a mad dash for power. It starts as a matter of convenience. One guy seems better at organizing or planning so let’s let him do it. Natural division of labor, right?

    But then he needs a way to make things happen so rules get made to facilitate his plans. And rules don’t exist without punitive action.

    And so on down the chain of decisions into hierarchy. Of course, the first step was the final, the rest was simply detail.

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    • I get it. I’ve seen happen, its mans natural tendency.
      So do you not believe Zion possible? Or do you see it as something different commentary? Obviously the Lord and His angels will do the gathering, but it does involve a group of people, something needs to give sometime somewhere right?

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  11. The first step to Zion, at the individual level, is repentance and mighty prayer unto sanctification by the Holy Ghost. Without that… well, people may enter Zion, but Zion won’t enter people. The five foolish virgins will, at the last, be sent away.

    The allocation of resources rather than instruction in the ways of repentance, faith, and righteousness seems to me to get the cart before the horse and invite a crash.

    But I could be wrong. Time will tell.

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    • I agree!

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  12. I think an error that retreaters are making is assuming that God doesn’t want any hierarchy, therefore all organizing is looked upon skeptically. Nevertheless, in 1830 Joseph Smith did in fact set up a church hierarchy. A highly decentralized one mind you. There is a distinction in arguing no government (like political anarchists), limited government (like political conservatives) and highly centralized & paternalized government (like political liberals & nearly every central government in the world currently). Likewise, I think DS and other intellectuals who still believe in Joseph Smith, the BOM and the Restoration, are making a call for a return to the original hierarchy established by Joseph Smith. One of the big problems DS faces is: how do you decentralize operational control of Mormonism, without at the same time sowing the seeds which over time push the organization right back into the arms of centralization again? Or, how do you deal with those who literally want NO organization and push back against ANY organizing efforts? Frankly, I perceive that DS himself is conflicted in this area. I don’t think the highly centralized model will ever bring about Zion. On the other hand, I’m skeptical that small localized units can do it either, which is why so far I have not joined up, and I’m taking a wait and see attitude towards everything. I understand the issues involved, but I do not have any clear answers myself.

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  13. For me, it’s simple. I neither desire to be led, neither have I desires to lead. I despise authority, in the sense of claims to compulsory power. And if you’re going to claim to know better than me how I ought to be spending my time, efforts, and energy, well, convince me, or sod off.

    Moreover, the implied social organizational principle – if it can be called that – of the golden rule is hierarchical equality (proof left to the reader).

    I already have all the hierarchy I could ever want right here in the good ole’ Church o’ Jesus Christ o’ La’er-day Saints. No end of people dictating one to another what they shall eat, drink, read, speak, think, do, and how to go about it. And all for our own good, of course. Mama knows best, so don’t sass her or she’ll take a switch to yer backside.

    Moreover, Karl, I think giving people titles is not quite the same thing as setting up a hierarchy, though it certainly does facilitate the formation of one. I recall Jesus instructing his disciples on what their true role was to be.

    25 But Jesus called them, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them; but it shall not be so among you.

    26 But whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister.

    27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant;

    28 Even as the Son of Man came, not to be ministered unto, but to minister; and to give his life a ransom for many.

    And again:

    30 And he came to Capernaum; and being in the house, he asked them, Why was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?

    31 But they held their peace, being afraid, for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who was the greatest among them.

    32 Now Jesus sat down and called the twelve, and said unto them. If any man desire to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all.

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    • Can I get an Amen? Amen!

      We’ve (not all but many) confunded the servant of all as leader/ruler of all!

      Maybe Joseph and company really got some things wrong – Kings, presidents, etc. All kinds of aspiring folks hell-bent on ruling and reigning over others.

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    • Well, I think I’m in basic agreement with you. I with you am sick of having any and all bureaucracies shoved down my throat, church, state or corporation. We have created a monster of a leadership system in the church which is a top-down, military model style all the way through. Few notice this; men are called into leadership and it seems to be the most natural thing to start barking orders down the chain of command. Certainly Packer, eg., represented this way of running things, and never thought twice about it. That this type of leadership is completely inverted from the principles of Priesthood outlined in Sec 121, seems to go right over the head of nearly all the current leaders. Further, I think it should be crystal clear from the example of the Savior’s life (washing his apostles feet, etc) and teachings that He did not want this type of vertical system developing. He wanted dead-level equality amongst brethren, with the Greatest the Servant of all. I think the late prophet Hugh Nibley hit it right on with his Leadership vs. Management talk in 1984–he saw it all coming down and now we have it: wards, stakes and the whole church now being governed by central command in SLC. Honestly, I think most wards and stakes could just put a stuffed animal in a suit on the stand and function as well as they do now. SLC has pretty much stifled all local autonomy. Best.

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  14. I would like to say that the First United Negro Kingdom of Yahweh’s Brotherhood Restored Orthodox Theological Hebrew Exalted Remnant would like to send a representative to the tithing conference.

    Thank you.

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    • Oh, yes! Please do!

      Toni

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    • Let’s hear a round of support for the FUNKY BROTHER group.

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  15. Good things the Lord said about the saints “meeting” together. So why all the mental contortions and contentions?

    12 And they did not walk any more after the performances and ordinances of the law of Moses; but they did walk after the commandments which they had received from their Lord and their God, continuing in fasting and prayer, and in meeting together oft both to pray and to hear the word of the Lord. 4 Nephi 1:12

    32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, as I said unto my disciples, where two or three are gathered together in my name, as touching one thing, behold, there will I be in the midst of them—even so am I in the dmidst of you. D & C 6:32

    8 And now, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that when ye are assembled together ye shall instruct and edify each other, that ye may know how to act and direct my church, how to act upon the points of my law and commandments, which I have given. D & C 43:8

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  16. though I support all who gather to further the works of Messiah, I cannot in good conscience support the preservation of the restoration because of the below quote by Joseph smith You look at Joseph and he was mayor of Nauvoo, he was running for president of the United States … He wanted to be prophet priest and king of the whole world. He made statements (Vol 6 of the History of the church)

    Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

    What Joseph said was a lie. He more or less is saying Joseph is greater than the Messiah. Joseph was mayor of Nauvoo, running for president of the U.S. He wanted to be prophet, priest and king of the whole world. He was all about power and control. He subjected women through polygamy. If Joseph knew Brigham and john Bennett were practicing polygamy and yet didn’t believe it himself, why in the world was he. Not decrying against it all the day long. Denver wants to put the blame on Brigham where in reality it sits squarely on the shoulders of Joseph.

    I cannot belong to a community that follows joseph or Denver. I believe Joseph opened conduits and received truth, but he also received lies. The momentum re Denver is coming to a standstill. He will be known as a sifter … But not as a servant.

    I hope there is at least one who seriously thinks about Joseph’s quote that he has done more than Jesus, Paul of Peter.

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    • Joseph had John C Bennett excommunicated. He also had him sign a statement swearing that Joseph never taught the doctrine. Further more, Joseph had all the leaders of the church and the relief society sign a statement that the church believed in marriage of one man and one woman. No other form of marriage was allowed or practiced in the church. This statement was signed by Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, John Taylor and many others. Joseph went to his death fighting against polygamy. Emma said, until her dying day, that Joseph never practiced polygamy.

      Don’t be so sure you know the whole story.

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      • Thomas that does not hold true when you research both Mormon and nonmormon sources And read accounts of David Whitmer and diaries of others. But it is a very ugly trail to follow and is disheartening. However truth is a double-edged sword. The good news is that now I understand no one has power or authority over me But my God. Wilford woodruff is the one who lied to the government re polygamy. Do you not also think Brigham and Winford and Joseph would not also lie to keep polygamy alive. They had forked tongues.

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      • And Thomas, can you answer why Joseph thought so highly of himself re what he said that he had done more than Jesus himself? That ought to be the biggest red flag for every member of the church.

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  17. I wonder who the leader of the Denver snuffer movement is. Or did I actually just reveal it?:) and before anyone says I am wrong, how do you know what movement i am talking about when I say the denver snuffer movement?
    Log made some brilliant points in my opinion on this thread. Awesome.

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    • Some that wish to lead will surely appear. Who you follow is entirely up to you. The very definition of the “Denver Snuffer Movement” is completely subjective.

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  18. One more quote from scripture which I believe was a prophecy re Joseph. Again, so many blessings given to Joseph came to naught.

    Malachi 2:14-17

    Yet se say wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. And did not he make one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. For the lord, the God of Israel saith that he hate the putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment , saith the Lord of hosts; therefore take heed to your spirit, that he deal not treacherously. Ye have wearied the Lord with your words. Yet ye say, Wherefore have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil ( insert polygamy) is good in the sight of the Lord and he delighteth in them; or Where is the God of judgment?

    In the BOM it says Joseph would be known for good and evil yet we make excuses and do not believe what was prophesied.

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  19. I understand that many of us have been too foolish in the past, either us or our ancestors. But we should learn from the hubbub over Colorado. It turned out to be much ado about nothing, and in reality, it was really just a chance for like-minded folks to fellowship together and learn from each other.

    “Where two or three are gathered . . .”

    If it devolves into something foolish, then we can proclaim it as such at that time.

    I for one, would love to go! We fellowship with people who’s spouses are against the movement and it makes it hard to tithe, so we are always looking for other avenues to tithe.

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  20. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last.

    Preliminary evaluation of truth value of this proposition is that he beat all prosecutions, and nothing has been proved against him, despite the libel and slander still levelled at him; he has not been proven guilty of having sex with anyone but Emma. Final evaluation must wait until A) standing in the divine council and seeing if Joseph is there, or B) waiting until the final judgement to see who is in the council then.

    I have more to boast of than ever any man had.

    Statement of subjective value, thus true or false depending on the selected metric. After all, my Pac-Man score beats his. So I have more to boast of than he did, and I have a higher score even than Jesus. Even than God. (IE it all depends on the selected metric.)

    I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam.

    Possibly he forgot Moses, but that was a nation of backsliders and reprobates, and there were many schisms and tribes led away and whatnot, and they rebelled against him even when he was with them. Anyways, the selected metric Joseph is talking about is keeping a church together – meaning the large majority of the whole.

    A large majority of the whole have stood by me.

    True.

    Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it.

    True.

    I boast that no man ever did such a work as I.

    It’s true that he’s boasting in the context of his selected metric, and it’s true his work was unique in the context of the selected metric.

    The followers of Jesus ran away from Him;

    True.

    but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

    True at the time of statement.

    So his statements were all true according to the selected metric. How then should I judge them who accuse him of lying?

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    • According to the Law of Moses, the penalty for false accusers was to suffer the same fate the accuser sought to visit upon the accused.

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      • 16 ¶If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;

        17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;

        18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;

        19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.

        20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.

        21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

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        • Um how about Enoch, or Melchizedek? Or Muhammed, or Siddhartha, or Krishna, or Zoroaster, or a plethora of other people?
          Joseph was the only one able to keep a church together or people from running from him?
          The spirit under which joseph was speaking was not from a source of Truth or goodness. It was speaking from pride and anger.
          There are other speeches he gave under the same frenzied mind as well. Yes if the spirit has falsely accused joseph something is truly wrong. That is why I choose to not accuse or judge anyone. I simply trust the spirit that tells me Jesus is the Christ. If the Spirit that comes when I am filled with gratitude, love, submission etc, while I am deep in prayer or reading the words of God happens to be a liar, then that would be odd indeed.

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        • Let me get this straight: you have moved the goalposts from whether Joseph’s statement was factually true to whether he was speaking as a prophet when he said it?

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        • And, more fun – even if Joseph was right in that everything he said was factually correct, you get to accuse him of being wrong at heart – but, of course, you’re not accusing him, but whatever spirit you say you are listening to has accused him, and you are just the helpless mouthpiece.

          Can’t win against non-witness witnesses.

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        • And, of course, when we are filled with “gratitude, love, submission etc,” we always look upon and publish the sins of others’ hearts, don’t we?

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        • Um how about Enoch, or Melchizedek? Or Muhammed, or Siddhartha, or Krishna, or Zoroaster, or a plethora of other people?

          Ok, I’ll bite: what percentage of people who started with these, ended with them? Please feel free to direct us to your sources.

          And in the case of Muhammad, should we include those forcibly “converted”?

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        • Oh, and why stop at what the world calls “religious” leaders? Why not include businesses and corporations?

          I wonder about Wells Fargo. Or AT&T. Etc. How many of those who started with their originators stayed with the companies?

          I mean, since we’re broadening the definitions here, let’s just include all congregations / corporations / organizations that ever existed prior to Joseph.

          Surely we can rescue our accusation somehow…

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        • Whoops. AT&T = 1885, Wells Fargo = 1852. Maybe if we define governments as being churches…

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    • Let’s see, Consantine established Catholicism somewhere around 325 AD. How much greater was he than Christ (after getting our metric right of course)? And what a humble man that he must have been, I’ve never heard any stories of him boasting of being so much greater than the Savior.

      I can see why we might want to throw Enoch out of the mix since we don’t know his retention rate for converts, but then on the other hand if Enoch wants to use translation as the metric in determining membership, then Joseph didn’t even have a church.

      Log, I’m not being critical, maybe a little sarcastic in order to get my point across but that’s not intended as criticism. The Lord didn’t bless me with the super power of LOGic, He instead dusted me lightly with sarcasm so please don’t interpret it as criticism or attempting to make you look bad, it’s just the way I make a point now and then my friend.

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      • Yes, comparing compulsory religious membership in the state Church of Rome – you know, the one where you get ex’d, nobody would buy from or sell to you, and could torture and even kill you to make sure you were orthodox – to the purely voluntary churches Joseph was clearly comparing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to is completely appropriate. Just like the comparison to Muhammad was entirely appropriate.

        Because the point is to craft an accusation against Joseph that will stick, of course. Truth seems to not be your concern.

        Hannah accused Joseph of lying. But he wasn’t, as far as we know. Then Minority sought to alter the accusation to Joseph being prideful or angry and thus not speaking by the spirit of truth, see, because that means Joseph can tell the truth but not be truthful – a no win scenario. If you’re not perfect, as Nate’s revelatory accusing spirit apparently says to him, you’re condemnable and such condemnation is no accusation at all, he whispers: “yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this.” Man, I would hate being human in Nate’s jurisdiction where witnesses are not required, innocence is no bar to conviction, and defense is not possible. Who’d be left standing?

        How many stories have you heard about Constantine, the Roman emperor, who ruled the civilized west, who conquered by the sign of the cross?

        No, don’t bother. I’m actually not really interested in pursuing this line of inquiry.

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        • Good luck, guys. May you live in the society you choose.

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  21. Log,

    You believe joseph was telling the truth that he had more to boast of than any man? That statement was the conclusion of Joseph’s, and he used the example if keeping a church together as one of the premises of that conclusion.
    Anyway my personal witness is that Siddhartha, Zoroaster, and Laotzi are all members of the “divine council” that has been mentioned.
    We may have different assumptions and you may believe those three were false prophets. Ok so what of Enoch? Did Enoch not set up a church? Joseph mentioned Jesus in reference to a church, it seems reasonable to conclude that Enoch set up some kind of system similar to the “church” that Jesus set up. Anyway Joseph’s statement was not exclusive to any kind of church so your statement is not valid about certain churches being excluded because they were compulsory. We might as well conclude that the church of the devil has been held together as well as any church. You wrote that joseph may have forgotten about moses. Well right there you are admitting that joseph may have just been preaching false doctrine during his frenzied rant.
    Your statement suggests that joseph may not have had more to boast of than any man, and he had not kept a church together better than anyone (because he might have forgotten about moses) so you already suggested by your own standard that joseph might have been blowing smoke, even if it’s because he “forgot.”
    Well how often might joseph have “forgotten” about other things when he was preaching sermons and new doctrines? What kind of conclusion is it that joseph was right EXCEPT for what he might have forgotten about?
    Well joseph preached he didn’t practice polygamy, he might have forgotten about having sexual relations with 30 women besides his wife, but he was right in his statement besides what he forgot about… Why would you attempt to make Joseph’s statement correct in some round about way that takes extrapolation and interpretive license (that certain churches were excluded) when you already admitted it very well could have been false because he “forgot” about moses? There are plenty of Joseph’s statements that any logical person should easily assess as false and yet for some reason people cannot accept that they could have been false because of their personal perception of how awesome joseph was. It is disturbing.

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  22. Did Moses succeed?

    7 ¶And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

    8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

    9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

    10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

    No, Moses did not succeed.

    As I said, truth is not your concern. Crafting an accusation that will stick against Joseph is your apparent goal.

    The field is yours. May your harvest be bounteous.

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  23. Sorry Log but I believe your rationale is flawed. What of the converts on the day of Pentecost? How long was Joseph working on organizing a church compared to Jesus or Peter and Paul? They had thousands of converts in a matter of a few years relative to Joseph’s many years?

    You compare Moses and Joseph and you say Moses failed? Seriously?

    The Denver movement is slowing to a snail’s pace … you have to all ask yourself why … or maybe ask God and He can reveal. Have you not noticed that when Tim reorganized his site to allow for “Denver” topics, that it did not take long for the whole site to come to a standstill? Why is that?

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    • From my side, my participation dwindled not because of the added “Denver” topics, but because the comments are dominated by anti-Denver, anti-Joseph folks (like you)

      After going around the same merry go round multiple times, it was time to get off. Just not worth it.

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  24. I’m not anti-Denver or anti-Joseph … I am pro-truth and truth is a two-edged sword. However, it could be that I am totally deceived and lacking love and filled with darkness. When one does a very balanced search of church history, not just reading “approved” sources, one starts seeing so many contradictions. But ultimately it is revelation from God that counts and nothing that I say nor anything from others. I just haven’t figured out why we can all be sincere in our approach to God for truth and yet we all can get such different answers. Is it because we all have different perceptions and beliefs, or is it our pride, or our unwillingness to accept God’s truth? I could be so far down the rabbit hole and so deceived and would hope that if I am, someone would have something to say that would help to change my perspective. I do believe God is merciful and if I am deceived, then I just pray that He redirects me.

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