Upcoming Remnant Tithing Conference


The Remnant Ministry asked Adrian Larsen (To The Remnant) and me (Latter-day Commentary) to share this on our blogs to get the word out. You are welcome to share this on Facebook, Google+ Twitter or your own blog as desired.

TithingConference

Tithing Conference – Saturday Sept 19th 2015, SLCC, Sandy Utah, 6pm to 9pm

Format for Tithing Conference:  We ask that while people are speaking / presenting for no interruptions or questions.  We have dedicated an hour after presentations as a Q & A time for individual/group conferences to form to ask questions of each other.

Sharing of Ideas and Needs: There will be a clipboard available for groups to communicate with each other “needs” and “surpluses” in a “giving tree” concept.

Call for Papers: We have had over a year of this “Tithing experiment”, as such we are asking for submissions of articles/papers and even just paragraphs from anyone who wants to contribute. Contributions can be lessons learned, progress made, mistakes, scriptural studies, group experiences, miracles and impacts witnessed, testimonies shared, thanks given or as the spirit directs.  We will place all the submissions into a pdf and make it available after the conference.  We will accept submissions after the conference as well for approximately 30 days.

We are open to other ideas still, and volunteers. Personal note from Tim: I am aware of some very successful tithing groups that have been able to provide support for single sisters with young families in need. Isn’t that what true religion is all about?

Contact: http://www.remnantministry.org/contact.html or remnantministry555@gmail.com

Link to last month’s announcement: https://latterdaycommentary.com/2015/07/08/call-for-tithing-conference/ (60+ comments)

A few thoughts from Denver for consideration and discussion from the Grand Junction lecture 4-12-14:

One of the things that happened when we failed to live the Law of Consecration was a replacement commandment requiring the payment of tithes. D&C 64:23 “Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.” (This is the statement that the cliché that tithing is “fire insurance” is drawn from because if you’re tithed you won’t be burned at his coming.) “For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon. Wherefore, if ye believe me, ye will labor while it is called today.” (D&C 64:23-25.)

I want to encourage you to pay tithing. If you are satisfied in paying that tithing to whatever church or organization you belong to, then continue doing so. The act of giving tithing as an offering to the Lord does not require you to supervise what happens with it once you give it to your churches. I think they become accountable. For you it is an act of faith. For them who receive it from you it is a matter of accountability before God.

However, some of us are forbidden from paying tithing to our church of choice. Some of us simply refuse to pay tithing because they don’t trust their church. Some refuse because they believe their church has neglected the poor. Some refuse to pay because the LDS Church refuses to be accountable and open with their donations.4 Some refuse to pay tithing because church leaders of the LDS Church treat the return on the tithing as “investment income,” and then use it to build shopping malls and buy landholdings. They treat the “investment income” as separate from tithing and use that categorization to deflect criticism of these vast commercial enterprises.

And from the Phoenix / Mesa lecture on 9-9-14:

In Grand Junction I spoke about tithing. I talked about organizing yourselves, collecting your own tithing and managing it yourselves, to assist the poor who are among you, and to do this by the voice of your own local group. Do it by common consent. Provide for those who need housing, food, clothing, healthcare, education and transportation. Do it by the voice of united agreement of you all in small groups in which all know one another. Since that time there have been several groups that have begun. Two groups are assisting single mothers with their needs. One group is assisting a family. One group has no needy among them, and they’ve accumulated for large charitable purposes, and they bought for a quadriplegic, a sophisticated electric wheelchair with the tithing money that they gathered.

I have also heard of some failing experiments, where frustration and contention have been problems. As the scriptures warn, and I discussed in Grand Junction, we must overcome “jarrings,” “contentions,” “envyings,” “strifes,” “lusts” meaning ambitions, and “covetous desires.” These  conflicts  need  to  be worked out before any gathering. All of the social ills of our day are in the churches of our day. Every denomination that came from Joseph Smith’s ministry is plagued with the same shortcomings. Before any gathering, we must be put through a refining process. We must grow; we must rise up first, before God will gather us to Zion.

There is no reason to pay for priesthood service. Serving should always require sacrifice. Do not pay for ministers. I would recommend if you choose to participate in a  tithing  group,  you  do  it in  the  same manner described in Grand Junction. Do it voluntarily among yourselves. Community is necessary. I do not know how you can bear one another’s burdens without administering your own tithes, administering your own fast offerings, doing things to help those people who are in need.

Some are giving tithing to an organization  that  is  purchasing  commercial  and  residential  real  estate, farms, and developing shopping centers, but has little left by comparison to give to the poor. Even though they give money to help the poor, billions spent in commercial ventures dwarf the amount. If you choose to participate that, that is up to you, but try and care for those among  you  who  have  needs.  Try  to participate in helping others and fellowshipping with them.

For those who are wondering, in my personal circumstances, I have made clear I would prefer to NOT pay tithing to an institution that does not publish reports of how the money is used. That, to me, is not common consent. However, I have left it up to Carol to decide how the Lord’s tithing money is used in our family. It is a commandment to pay tithing, but I also happen to believe in Rock’s ideas on the subject presented in this article: http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html

 

34 Responses

  1. My, my, my. How things have changed.

    We have to live quite short but the brethren are very kind to us. They are willing to divide with us the last they have. They are quite ignorant; many of them cannot read a word and it needs great care to teach them the gospel so that they can understand. The people here are bound down under priestcraft in a manner I never saw before. They have to pay tithes to the priests of every tenth they raise, so that they cannot lay up one cent. They are in the same situation the children of Israel were in Egypt. They have their taskmasters over them to bind them down. It will be as great a miracle to deliver this people as it was the children of Israel. – Heber C. Kimball

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    • That is a fantastic find. Whether or not it applies to the remnant movement I don’t know, it sure applies to the current LDS leadership.

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      • Yup. I forget where I first ran across that. Unfortunately, it predates D&C 119 or it would carry more weight. It is difficult to get across to people that “interest” did not mean “income.”

        There’s another statement by Joseph Smith along the same lines that I cannot find right this second – how those in debt owe no tithing. I’ll post it when I find it.

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      • Ah ha. TPJS.

        Covenant of Tithing

        Section Two 1834-37, p.70

        On the evening of the 29th of November, I united in prayer with Brother Oliver for the continuance of blessings. After giving thanks for the relief which the Lord had lately sent us by opening the hearts of the brethren from the east, to loan us $430; after commencing and rejoicing before the Lord on this occasion, we agreed to enter into the following covenant with the Lord, viz:

        Section Two 1834-37, p.70

        That if the Lord will prosper us in our business and open the way before us that we may obtain means to pay our debts, that we be not troubled nor brought into disrepute before the world, nor His people; after that, of all that He shall give unto us, we will give a tenth to be bestowed upon the poor in His Church, or as He shall command; and that we will be faithful over that which he has entrusted to our care, that we may obtain much; and that our children after us shall remember to observe this sacred and holy covenant; and that our children, and our children’s children, may know of the same, we have subscribed our names with our own hands. (March 29, 1834.) DHC 2:174-175.

        (Signed) JOSEPH SMITH, JUN.,

        OLIVER COWDERY.

        Debts first, tithing afterwards. Too bad that it, too, predates D&C 119.

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  2. I knew a man once who was puffed up in his ability to express himself. He had a real way with words and made very erudite and pithy comments about almost everything, but the people hardly listened to what he said, because he had “no skin in the game.” He could take either side with equal ease.

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    • Google will tell you all you need to know:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log

      I guess if you’re looking for a puffed up version:

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    • With all that said Keith, your mission has required that you not be anonymous, and you have sacrificed much because of it. I tip my hat to you.

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  3. For the audience, “Keith” is both calling me a coward, prideful, puffed up, and he’s saying he doesn’t listen to me because I comment anonymously and is also advising you to ignore me like he does.

    That’s his call to make, of course. I would make a different call, myself.

    2 Timothy 1:7
    7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

    No need to fear the anonymous commenter, right?

    As I asked of “Mark Moe” on Rock’s blog:

    1. I cannot confirm nor deny your claims to be using your real name. I don’t even care. I am neither benefitted nor harmed by your claims.

    2. Why do you seek to provoke me into revealing my name? Why do you care? How are you harmed by my anonymity? How would you benefit from revealing my true name?

    3. If you cannot understand why a man would choose to take upon himself a new name, then why would you counsel him against it?

    4. Hitler used his real name. That’s how genuine and fearless he was. Should I say “Thanks, Hitler!!!”?

    So far, neither “Mark” nor “Keith” nor anyone else has bothered to respond. I would wonder why, but I’m pretty sure I know the answer.

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  4. And, since Keith has taken an apparently private beef with me public (this apparent beef explains, by way of paranoia, why he deleted my innocuous and factual comment that Jesus never left the Church from his latest post), let me repeat what I said, also at Rock’s blog, about why I remain anonymous.

    The reason some of us take upon ourselves new names – note the phraseology – is so that we may speak without being punished for it by our paternalistic overlords. One may call it cowardice if one likes, but for me, it is simply a reasonable precaution in the face of entirely predictable consequences for expressing sufficiently unpopular ideas (unpopular, that is, among certain classes of men). One might also call belligerence and aggression towards pseudonymous posters, as such, paranoia, if one was feeling uppity.

    Incidentally, I have found that such paranoia is most definitely not a sign of being in possession of truth, but it is a rather reliable indicator of adherence to ideological dogma.

    I’m feeling uppity. Paranoia is not the Spirit of God.

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    • One of the things underlying this whole movement, or whatever we want to call it, is that the messenger is more important than the message.

      The ideas are what matter, not the name attached to them.

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  5. “Me thinks thou doth protest too much.” “Fearful men see shadows where there are none.” Boy, I wish I could write like that.

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    • Go in peace, Keith. Seek no more for shadows where there are none.

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  6. I love that scripture D&C 64:23 speaking of a tithe of “His” people”. I think about the parable of the ten lepers in Luke 17 where the Lord healed the lepers and sent them to the priests. Only one recognized the true High Priest and came and fell at His feet. So when the Lord says that he will tithe his people i interpret that as a test to see who will make it back to the feet of The True High Priest. Now i realize that giving a percent of what we have to those in need is a big part of the sacrifice through which we are taught a higher law but at the end of “the day” i cant help but think that only a holy tithe will remain.

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    • Do you believe the Remnant movement is this tithe of the Lord’s people?

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  7. This is very entertaining. You guys aren’t seriously boxing, Keith and Log, I mean? Is this some kind of staged joke or something? Log, you’re supposed to be some kind of pseudonymous prophet. And Keith you’re supposed to be the Second Witness to the Servant himself in the Remnant movement. What about “by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples…”? Maybe we should all just hug it out. I’ll join in (the hug that is). Come on! Everyone needs a big hug and an “I love you, Man.”

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  8. Jesef,

    Your comment doesn’t advance your implicitly stated goal of reconciliation as you leave all conflicts unresolved, uncover no truth, and enlighten no minds nor hearts.

    So I gather you’se just being a smart-alec.

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  9. Maybe I should take this “hypothetical” or possibly completely “real” Jesus (ie. truth, restoration movement, understanding, etc.) to which both Log and Keith seem to be at odds over and lay this “Christ” on an alter, to which I will then, with a sword, cut in two … allowing for both Log and Keith to have their own perceived portion of Christ, and both of you (Log and Keith) can take your trophied prize back to your homes, relishing in both your victory (“slain” enemy) and your prize “won”?!?

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  10. Nathan… as with Jesef, it’s unclear if you understand the issue being discussed.

    And, if you don’t understand it, why meddle?

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  11. Log, you are correct, I genuinely do not understand the issue as noted between you and Keith. The comment was reflective of my own experience. I used the above comments to step deeper into an issue I am currently attempting to reconcile within myself, specific to individuals who use blogs to reconcile who has a relationship with the more “true” Jesus (ie. my Jesus is more true than your Jesus, my evidence of Jesus is more right than your evidence of Jesus, my Holy Ghost is 12% more Holy than your Ghost, my seer stone interprets scripture 57% more clearer than your seer stone, my huge library collection of arm of the flesh quotes is way bigger than your Desert book library arm of the flesh collection of quotes, etc.). I’m sure this has nothing to do with whatever it is you and Keith are engaged in, which, clearly is bringing both of you closer to your individual Jesus’s that you are each following (again, this comment is reflective of where I am at, and to things I am working thru). Please, as you were, nothing of note here.

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  12. 1 Peter 4:14-15
    14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

    15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.

    Mosiah 12:1
    1 And it came to pass that after the space of two years that Abinadi came among them in disguise, that they knew him not…

    John 7:10
    10 ¶But when [Jesus’s] brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

    John 11:54
    54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.

    Suffice it to say, a standard of judgement that would condemn the Lord, and his servants, is probably not a standard we’d like applied against ourselves.

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  13. I feel like this is significant… for some reason.

    John 7
    1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

    2 Now the Jews’ feast of tabernacles was at hand.

    3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judæa, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

    4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

    In case anyone doesn’t see it, they’re telling Jesus to “put skin in the game.”

    5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

    That’s why.

    6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

    7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

    8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.

    9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

    10 ¶But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

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  14. Genuine gratitude and thankfulness Log. Whatever your intention, I count it as charitable and posted with the intent to turn me to Christ.

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  15. I try. I am sick to death of judgement, conflict, manipulation, and arrogance.

    Truly it is said that without charity man is nothing – even less than the dust, for the dust obeys, where man acts as a malicious poltergeist.

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    • Why respond to Keith? And of course I was being a smart-alec. Have you lost your sense of humor? I wasn’t kidding about hugging it out – why all the debating and proving Keith wrong? And why does Keith see fit to judge you for being pseudonymous? I really don’t get it.

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  16. Jesef,

    I respond to Keith here, as I responded to Mark Moe at Rock’s, because I have seen this same position taken at least 5 times, and it is tiresome coming as it does from those who seem to ought to know better. My response is intended to illustrate that there is no good principle behind the position: there is no love in the demand that I unmask. The demand is born from the opposite of love.

    Parenthetically, I don’t find those who meddle in my conversations to be all that entertaining, actually.

    As for what it pleases you to term my debating and proving Keith wrong, you misunderstand, which misunderstanding comes from seeing conflicts in terms of winners and losers and because you don’t read carefully but instead judge after your own heart – something that I am beginning to wonder if you realize that you do. I haven’t said Keith is wrong, for a simple reason.

    Keith’s not wrong.

    Keith simply values resolving his fear of the unknown more highly than he values other things, like judging righteous judgement; that’s the way he feels. Can I justly claim someone’s wrong for the way they feel? I don’t know of anyone who can command their heart. Feelings aren’t wrong or right; they simply exist.

    I can’t expect Keith to act against his fear. All I can do is point out the consequences of Keith’s choice – his standard of judgement condemns the Lord and his servants. If Keith is comfortable with those consequences, well, that’s that; he’s preparing for some other society, I guess. If he’s not comfortable with those consequences, he can choose a different direction.

    Since you asked.

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    • I’m just glad you’re back. I think I get it. Then again I think I’m sane too. Thanks for laying it out anyway. I hope Keith comes back. I think maybe he thought your first comment was some kind of insult. What were you really trying to say with that first comment anyway? Maybe break that down for us.

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  17. Jesef,

    I said what I was really trying to say. Things have changed. The position of the early Church on tithing is not the position of the modern Church.

    As to whether that was a good change or a bad change, well, that’s up to the reader.

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    • I think Keith may have read you wrong and thought you were somehow insulting the Remnant movement and responded with his own insult.

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  18. BTW, on the subject of anonymity, marvel covered it well here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_War_(comics). In theaters 2016.

    Also, Cap’n America is on the side of anonymity.
    QED.

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  19. Well, it seems Keith doesn’t actually have a problem with anonymity.

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  20. What is the difference between gentle and meek persuasion as prescribed in D&C 121 and “Bible bashing”? Honestly… could it be what motivates our responses? Does it go directly to the condition on ones heart? I’m just throwing this out.. what if our filters are intended to be internal- if we should be asking ourselves whats driving our statements and interactions?

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  21. Hi Pondering,

    In the context of this conversation, I’m not sure what you intend to contribute. Would you mind explaining where “bible bashing” and “asking ourselves what’s driving our statements and interactions” means, who you’re talking to (because if you meant to ask yourself these questions, you went about it in an interesting way), and what outcome you hope to see?

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  22. i would prefer not to explain

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  23. Thankyou for giving me further light and knowledge brethren/sisters, I was fearful of where the tone of commenting was going but I was taught some valuable things…from my heart

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