On Reading Controversial Books


saints-standard-of-truth


It’s been over four years since I resigned from the LDS Church, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A lot has changed in my life since that day in September 2014. I have been blessed immensely by the Lord in so many ways. I reflected many times on why I chose to resign back then. I didn’t have to do so but felt it was the right thing to do since I planned on being baptized again, outside the auspices of the LDS hierarchy.

I still get a lot of emails from readers wondering how I’m doing. One reader sent me an email asking “… have you come to any answers about your queries in this article? I feel the same way you do or did, and that is spiritually uplifted and edified by these authors of more controversial topics. Have you come to any conclusions about how this relates to the Brethren’s view of such authors and what they write about?” My response follows…

The Original Post

Thanks for your email. I went back and re-read the post and all 93 comments. That was written over five years ago. It brought back fond memories of deep dialog with many good people. I miss that, but until a recent change in employment, I haven’t had time to invest in reading as writing as much as I used to. I’m trying to get back into that mode. Thanks again for your email and getting me thinking about the subject again. I have pondered your question and my original questions.

Private Sacrament Meetings

SacramentMinervaTeichertA lot has changed in the last five years since I wrote that post. I am no longer a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, although I do attend the full three-hour block each Sunday with my wife, partake of the sacrament and participate in classroom discussion from time to time. I am blessed to have a very kind and understanding Stake President, Bishop and Elder’s Quorum President who have encouraged me to participate. I especially enjoy singing in the choir.

Taught by the Precepts of Men

Yes, I have come to some conclusions about how the Brethren view the writings of authors who publish works that are not in harmony with the orthodox teachings found in the official curriculum of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A scripture comes to mind, “…they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.” (2 Ne 28:14)

Harmony With the Mind of Christ

I am not referring to those who write such books, but to those who view their writings as apostate. I retain my original enthusiasm for the works of authors who are diligently seeking truth as humble followers of Jesus Christ. I have enough experience with the Holy Ghost to know when something I read is or isn’t leading me to Christ. That’s the whole purpose of the Spirit of the Lord – to lead us unto Christ. As we give heed It brings us into harmony with the mind of Christ.

Fight Not Against Apostles and Prophets

It saddens me to think that the above referenced scripture, and in many cases, the entire chapter, is referring to the leadership, especially at the highest levels, of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have promised myself I would not fight against the prophets and apostles. I will not confront them directly. There is a scripture that counsels those who do that. They will be cut off. I still hold to that belief, that if I fight against the apostles and prophets I will be cut off.

Upheld by Fath and Prayers

One could argue they are not legitimate prophets and apostles. No matter, I have sustained them as such and I will not go against that. I continue to pray for them, thus upholding them with my prayers and faith. At the same time, my prayers of faith are offered on behalf of all those who are seeking diligently to come unto Christ and to teach us to do so, according to their best understanding. Thus I uphold and sustain men like Denver Snuffer as servants of the Lord in these last days.

The Covenant Path is Extended

The heavens are open. We have an opportunity to come unto Christ and to enter into His presence. He has holy places in Heaven to where we can rise up and be taught by Him directly. We can learn of His paths and follow them. I like how President Nelson refers often to the covenant path. I know he’s referring to baptism, confirmation, priesthood and temple covenants in the LDS Church. No matter, it prompts me to reflect on the additional covenants into which I have entered.

A Day of Rejoicing, A New Beginning

tim-malone-baptismSpecifically, I have publicly made a big deal about being baptized again as a sign I accept the words delivered by His servant, Denver Snuffer, as having been either authored by or directly influenced by the Lord. I am familiar with that process of revelation, especially as it is manifested when writing. There are times I feel or hear the words I share in the very process of sharing them. Thus, I am influenced by what I read from the humble followers of Christ who write as they feel inspired. I know that process well.

 

Additional Covenants, Additional Scripture

Second, I have entered into an additional covenant with the Lord about a year ago, in September of 2017 at the time of the Boise Conference, to accept the scriptures as they have been revealed and corrected by the scripture committee, and which the Lord accepted. Part of that covenant included a promise to seek to be of one heart and one mind with those humble followers of Christ who are seeking to bring about Zion as I am. It is an awesome thing to have additional scripture.

Writing Under The Spirit of Revelation

I hope this answers your question. Again, I am always grateful when someone reaches out to me as a consequence of something I have written and posted on my blog. I try not to take myself too seriously. There are times when I have written things I know were pleasing to the Lord, even inspired, especially when I asked him in prayer for guidance and direction in what I felt prompted to share. That post was one of many that was inspired by the spirit of revelation, even the mind of Christ.

But What Do The Brethren Think?

And the response: “Has your Stake President brought your concerns to the Brethren? Surely posing your questions to them isn’t confronting or fighting against them, is it? I admire how you still pray for and sustain them with your faith, and your commitment to not fight against them, but I guess I’m just confused as to why you haven’t had your concerns addressed by the Brethren. Isn’t that the order of things when your local leaders can’t answer your concerns?”

Response of Local Authorities

I think I’m past the point where I care about what the Brethren have to say about my questions. I already know what they have said and written about such topics, having studied their words all my life. In defense of my Stake President, the four of us (my wife, me, my Bishop and my Stake President) met and discussed my questions. At the conclusion of our meeting the Stake President said he had no problems with my concerns or my blogging activities. On the other hand, my Bishop did.

Forbiding to Partake of the Sacrament

Jesus_SacramentWe continued to meet regularly. A few weeks after the meeting with the four of us, my Bishop placed me on informal probation for apostasy, which is really just a hand slap. However, it was his direction that I not partake of he sacrament. That bothered me. I felt it was anti-Christ. I know that’s harsh, but it is truthful. Forbidding someone to partake of the sacrament implies judgement, which, I suppose, it what a Bishop is supposed to do, right? But, it didn’t set well with me and prompted my decision to resign.

Unorthodox Views, Apostasy and Heresy

I’ve never really understood the charge of apostasy. I think the correct terminology should be heresy, meaning your views do not correspond with those of the Brethren on certain issues, in my case, of a historical nature. I’m fairly certain my bishop would not have been so concerned but he was receiving complaints from ward members and former ward members that saw and read some of my blog posts because I had it linked to my Facebook feed, in hindsight, a poor move.

Questions About LDS History

I think the most difficult concern for the bishop was the statement from a former ward member that my blogging activities were influencing her (adult) children. Being friends with her children, I can relate that they had made their decision to leave the LDS Church long before I did. In any event, I did not expect my local leaders to bring my concerns to the Brethren, nor did they. It wasn’t necessary. These were questions of a historical nature for which I would not expect General Authorities to have answers.

General Authorities Not Trained Historians

Unless the Brethren are trained historians, actively engaged in research and teaching, which, as far as I know, none of them are, they simply would not have time to study the historical records like I and many others have done. I know that may come across as arrogant, but it’s true. General Authorities are busy administering the affairs of the Church. For the most part, they are doctors (Pres. Nelson), lawyers (Pres. Oaks) and educational administrators (Pres. Eyring).

Large and Successful Institution

LDSChurchOfficeBuildingThe members of the Quorum of the Twelve had similar vocations before their call to become full-time church employees. I know we don’t like to focus on the institutional aspect of the Church, but it is one of the largest and most successful religious institutions in the world, at least from an economic point of view. Thus the need for professional administrators. It’s been said one should never ask what goes into sausage or how laws are made. Likewise, one must have a strong testimony to be an employee of the Church.

 

 

Read Church Histroy, But Not Too Much

Either that or put blinders on and ask no questions. There’s something to be said for those who innocently and somewhat naively believe the official explanations of the Church in regards to the early historical facts that have come to light in our day, even though some of those facts come right from the Joseph Smith Papers, an official publication of the Church. Most members haven’t read them, nor would they find them interesting.

Of Good Report or Praiseworthy

It’s surprising how many don’t really care about the rise of the Church and what happened after the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum. To them, it’s a social institution, to be judged solely on the merits of encouraging moral values, which it does extremely well. Therefore, the Church is praiseworthy. There is no need to look too deeply into the past. The Church can be judged on the value it brings to families in the form of programs and practices that encourage and strengthen families. In this it excels and deserves our encouragement and active participation.

Do You Have Priesthood Approval?

church-in-the-home

The history and doctrine are being watered down more and more as time goes on. I appreciate the move to focus gospel study in the home, and the encouragement for individual members to meet in homes specifically to study the gospel, with the hope that the scriptures will be the foundation of that study. Perhaps that will turn things around. There is a question one used to hear in the Church when attempting to organize a gospel study in the home: “Do you have priesthood approval for that meeting?”

He Who Is Compelled in All Things

Wow. What a turnaround. I think this is a big deal and hope the Saints appreciate this change in direction. I believe the Lord will bless those who seek to understand the gospel better through these informal study groups. My only concern is that perhaps some will continue to look to Salt Lake for direction on what to study. In fact, the Church has already published the official guidelines. Why can’t we decide on our own, under the direction of the spirit what we should study?

Comments welcome…

Suspending Judgment


moroni-manti-templeI’ve decided to go to the Remnant Family Retreat in a couple of weeks. A reader invited me to visit the Dream Mine next weekend for a rare tour. I’ve read a lot about it over the years but not being from Utah, have never been to see it. It’s also known as John Koyle’s Relief Mine. The story is quite fascinating and a bit heartbreaking, ending in yet another LDS excommunication.

Because there is a week between the Dream Mine tour next Saturday – sorry, not open to the public – and the Remnant Family Retreat on the 15th, I’ve asked a few Utah folks for interviews. These are all interesting people, each involved in writing and publishing. I’m grateful Carol will be joining me on some of the interviews. I hope to post something to the blog after each one.

Keep Thinking – Keep Learning

I’ve always been attracted to critical thinkers and writers, meaning I enjoy considering differing points of views on subjects. I appreciate a persuasive argument written by those who have taken the time to study both sides and have come to a careful, thoughtful conclusion. I have discovered I’m persuaded by folks who invest themselves in their positions, who practice what they preach.

Holding onto an idea or a belief as being inviolate simply because that’s the way you’ve always believed, or the way your family has always believed doesn’t cut it with me. We are here on this earth to discover for ourselves what we think and what we believe about important issues. I am convinced we can only do this by continuing to think, study and learn long after school is over.

Openly Consider Opposing Views

RemnantFamilyReunionFrom the day we agreed as a team of bloggers to announce it, the pros and cons of the planned gathering have been discussed on this blog and elsewhere. There have been some hard questions asked, apologies offered and in general, people have divided into two camps. One group seems convinced this is “rushing into the pass,” while the other seeks a spiritual worship experience.

I have thought about it, pondered it, prayed about it and still have not felt it is a bad thing. I had originally planned to not go, mainly because of the travel expense and because I didn’t want to add any more stress to my marriage. My resignation from the LDS Church has not been easy on Carol. I think getting away from our daily routine for a couple of weeks will be good for us both.

Asking Questions is a Good Thing

I offer my thanks to all those who participated in the dialog here and elsewhere. I don’t always join in but I always read and consider every comment. I think we should have to struggle with the implications of questions when they are raised. I appreciated Lynne’s posts, as well as those from Adrian and Bret. I think we should also deal with fears raised no matter who raises them.

I suppose fear is the greatest impediment to agreement. One side is afraid of something. It could be based on past experience, observation, or private knowledge not openly shared. I don’t know anything about sacred dance, but there are plenty of people who do. I willingly consider what they have to say. If I am fearful of being deceived, I close myself off to learning opportunities.

Long-Suffering, Gentleness and Meekness

7-elevations-of-wholenessOne of my readers opened my eyes recently to an unpleasant reality. She could read fear in my writing. She shared it with me. I reacted badly. Her response was so filled with love I could not help but be persuaded by what she wrote. I went back and reconsidered my judgement. I found I was wrong. Fear was crippling me. She recognized it and pointed it out. I didn’t want to face it.

I am grateful for her courage and her loving response. She is one of the people Carol and I are going to meet with in that week between the Dream Mine tour and the Remnant Retreat. My point is this: she expressed an observation out of love. I reacted out of fear. She responded with kind words. I was persuaded by her gentleness and meekness. I now have a new friend and am very grateful.

Keep Fear Out Of The Conversation

Isn’t that how it’s supposed to work? Isn’t that what dialog is all about? I watched some of the discussion about the Remnant Retreat go poorly because of fear. I suppose if there’s anything I want to get across in this post it is this: Fear will kill faith every time if you let it. Fear will keep us from learning and growing. Fear will cause us to judge. When we judge, darkness follows.

My personal experience with fear and the pain it has brought into my life has taught me more about myself than I wanted to know. It was not pretty. I know why some of my long-standing prayers haven’t been answered. I have discovered I still carry fear from years past that cripples me. I have wasted too many years listening to this fear. Ask yourself: do you carry any fears?

Faith and Fear Cannot Coexist

Casting Away Satan by Carl BlochFear prevents us from opening the heavens. Fear allows the adversary to keep us in the dark. Fear keeps our minds closed and causes them to shrivel. Fear prevents us from reaching for the things we desire most in life. Fear is irrational. It is based on a lie. Fear has only the power we give it. Fear causes us to judge without having all the facts. Fear keeps us from agreement.

Faith is a risky business. It requires us to step outside our comfort zone. It requires us to reach out in ways we have never done before. Faith is blessed of heaven and always will be. Any act of faith is encouraged by the angels. It takes courage. It takes a willingness to go beyond previous exertions. Faith is always rewarded. Faith can be its own reward. It brings confidence and light.

May God Bless Our Fellowship

I look forward to meeting many of you at the Remnant Retreat in two weeks. Carol won’t be there. She will be at the LDS Story Makers writer’s conference in Provo. I am so pleased with the amazing growth Carol has made in developing her writing talent over the past few years. I have watched her turn criticism into triumph. She amazes me. I’m so glad she still loves me.

I look forward to praying with you. I look forward to hearing from the speakers. I look forward to seeing so many of you again. Please forgive me if I don’t remember you right away. I met so many people at the lectures last year. May God bless those who come to the retreat with a desire to learn, to grow, to fellowship and to find comfort in shared meaningful worship experiences.

 

Remnant Family Reunion Controversy / Apology


Rock_Waterman_SayingsI must apologize here for the tone of the questions in my April 15th, 2015 post. As someone pointed out in another blog, written words can seem cold. We don’t see each other’s facial expressions, body language, or eyes. We don’t hear each other laugh. I wish I could write more like Rock, in that warm, conversational way. He’s the undisputed master of that comfortable style, in my book.

Perhaps I’ve spent too many years drafting legal arguments to the US Patent and Trademark Office Examining Attorneys – a cold-hearted crew. My mentor was a talented intellectual property attorney whom I respected. I valued his relentless editing of my work to search out and replace any emotion. So I do acknowledge that my words can seem clipped and cold. There is no need for warm expansion in legal writing, but there was here. What I intended to convey was deep concern from a position of love, but I missed that mark and caused considerable contention among a body of friends with whom I hope to be reunited someday in true community. Please forgive me.

beedanceI thank Marti for her sweet and vulnerable description of the honeycomb dance and her part in bringing that forth. As she described it, I felt that even I, too, would like to join in that simple physical outpouring of love and joy dedicated to God. She shed light on something which I, and many others, obviously misunderstood. For that, I am sincerely grateful to her. If you haven’t read her description about how the Utah version of the honeycomb dance came to be, I hope you’ll wade through the comments section of the questions post and do so. However, please understand that whatever The Lord creates, Satan copies and corrupts. There are other Asenath dance versions out there, of which I have personal knowledge, and which are absolutely pagan. It was another version, from a personal message to my Facebook account, which generated my rhetorical questions.

Descriptions of the honeycomb dance costumes, head jewels, moonlight dancing on the mesa, the presence of a mother entity and the cloud/moon signs in the night sky came directly from Samantha Corbridge and her daughters when their family visited me and my husband in our Orem home on Thanksgiving eve. Bret and my husband Ron were in the room. So no, I didn’t just make all that up, as I have been accused of doing. Bret sent me a detailed email about his planned events and activities a few days before he sent them out to any of the other speakers. So yes, I did know what was in the works, and it was not merely guesswork on my part.

I expected personal attacks for daring to ask uncomfortable questions, but was surprised by the anger, outrage and identity of some of the attackers.

I paraphrase someone in another group who wisely commented: “We can see ourselves doing to each other here exactly what the church has done to us by telling us to shut up and sit down, saying it’s fine to have questions, but certainly NOT fine to talk about them or post about them on the internet because they might cause some people to actually listen and consider those questions as being possibly valid. That’s a very familiar accusation to those who have been excommunicated recently.

We may not all agree with each other but that doesn’t make any of us an authority on the writer’s thoughts or reasons for posting the questions. But isn’t asking questions what got us to where we are right now? And sometimes, unless someone else poses the question, it never even crosses our minds to ask, let alone take such a question to The Lord. People who are willing to ask hard questions can cause us to think about things we hadn’t considered before, and that is absolutely worthwhile. Disagreeing is fine, and often produces productive discussion. Attributing motive to [and attacking] the person asking the questions is where we should all take issue.”

At this writing, four days after the original post, there are nearly 2,000 views, 120 comments and 200 Facebook shares on this site alone. So there are evidently a few others besides me who care about the issues raised in the questions. To therefore dismiss all this discussion as “silly” and something that will now please just fade quietly off into the sunset tells us all (in a warm conversational way) to just shut up and sit down.

As usual, Log, a master of synopsis, waded through all the angst and anger in the comments section of the original questions post and pinned it to the real issue in his brief comment on April 17, at 11:38 pm.

For me, it all boils down to this:

Is Bret Corbridge actually a prophet of God who speaks personally with Christ? Does he organize all things pertaining to this gathering under the direction of Christ? He says publicly that he does.

RemnantFamilyReunionIf this is true, then I need to repent, get on board, do whatever I can possibly do within my own sphere of influence to advertise and promote it, get myself over to the Remnant Family Reunion to show love, solidarity and support for the emerging Zion family, and do the honeycomb dance with my sisters.

Or is he a delusional, hallucinogenic individual who thinks he talks with Christ, but actually doesn’t? If so, wouldn’t I want to warn the people I care about so they don’t get hurt? This option seems extremely unlikely to me, since Bret Corbridge is a respected, credentialed family therapist in the business of identifying and detangling delusions in other people.

Another possibility is that we’re ALL delusional here on Tim’s blog, none of this stuff even really matters since Thomas S. Monson is the only true and living prophet on earth with all the keys – if we follow him he will never lead us astray, the call to gather will come in general conference, and Zion is a bank. That option also seems extremely unlikely to me, since the LDS church is currently in the business of creating, maintaining and enforcing delusional thinking.

But what if Bret actually IS conversing with someone who comes self-identifying as Christ and directs all the efforts of this gathering, but is not really Jesus Christ? Could this be the rush (to gather) to the pass that Denver talks about, where the man who would not wait is destroyed by the beast? In that case, my brother Bret, whom I love, is in a deadly situation and many people whom I care about could likewise be destroyed by following him into that pass.

I remember Denver saying that there WILL be a gathering, but “if some great man wants to put his name on it, then I will not gather.” Bret has worked very hard to stay in the background as, he calls himself, merely the facilitator of this event. However, by publicly quoting verbatim the words of Christ to him to organize the event and instruct others to gather, by picking the “sacred” mesa venue, by choosing the speakers and doing most of the groundwork to get the gathering off the ground, then in my mind, Bret Corbridge has essentially put his name on it.

If Denver Snuffer is a prophet, and I believe he is, then Denver’s comment about what kind of gathering he specifically WILL NOT attend has relevance to me, and generated my question to Bret about whether or not Denver was invited. The exact answer was no, he would be a distraction, and had in fact rebuked Bret.

I’m a writer, Bret’s a writer. We tend to use language with some precision. So the word “rebuke” then, also has some relevance in my mind, and generated another of my original questions.

ProphetJosephSmithJoseph Smith said he talked to Christ, and I believe him. That belief gave me a framework for life. Denver Snuffer says he talks with Christ, and I believe him. That belief frames my current life choices as I value the perspective of one who delivers a message from Christ.

Bret Corbridge says that he talks personally with Christ who leads this gathering. In my mind that would, should, make The Remnant Family Reunion holy.

I care, therefore, to determine if Christ is at the helm and actually conversing with Bret Corbridge as His messenger, or if Bret is delusional, or a pathological liar, or if Bret is talking to a counterfeit Christ. The Remnant Family Reunion was never represented as merely a social gathering by Bret, who provides the direct words he received from Christ in the information packet.

I get it that some people here just want to go to a good party, and basically don’t care whether or not Bret is on the Lord’s errand. But I care deeply, since that has been represented to be the case, just as I care deeply to know that Denver is on an errand from the Lord and is not just freelancing with his own agenda.

Whenever someone says, in effect, “Thus saith the Lord God” as Bret has done by publicly quoting Christ relative to the Colorado gathering, then in my mind that moves the whole gathering out of a good time party place and into a sacred space – a consecrated ramp up to Zion.

There should be deep reflection, pondering (questions) and prayer about how God views The Remnant Family Reunion. Nobody else was asking questions, so I did. I know that my tone could have been softer. I’m sorry you didn’t feel my love and concern, and you didn’t know how sometimes I cry myself to sleep at night thinking about all this, about you, praying for you all, loving you all.

There were some uncomfortable questions people should have been asking at the front end of Jonestown, Waco and Manti – the same kind of questions people need to ask about Denver Snuffer or any other man who says publicly that he talks with Christ and delivers a message to us from Him.

I’ll end here and move on now to other things in my life with this quote from my friend Tim Malone in his preface to my original questions post of April 15, 2015:

“I have prayed to know God’s will…. God wanted this posted.”

Facebook Discussion Group for Latter-day Commentary


LDCFacebookGroupAt the request of my bishop, I have created a new space for those who wish to discuss posts from this blog on a closed Facebook group rather than in the comments below. You can find it at this link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/latterdaycommentary/ I hesitated a long time before creating this group. I feel strongly such a move should not have been necessary. If you are LDS and are even halfway awake you should be interested in learning more about the mysteries of the kingdom and discussing them. But apparently the “tone” of my posts has upset too many people.

Best Vacation I’ve Ever Enjoyed

I just returned from two Denver Snuffer lectures in Las Vegas and St. George, then spent three days at the Salt Lake 2014 Sunstone Symposium. This was absolutely the best vacation I have ever enjoyed. I can’t remember the last time I was able to take two weeks off without having to put out some sort of IT fire at work every night from the hotel via Remote Desktop. Some people like to visit relatives on vacation, others go for culture – museums, art gallery, Broadway plays and the like. Put me in a room of intelligent, educated people discussing how the gospel and church affect their lives and I’m in dog heaven.

Upcoming Posts planned for Latter-day Commentary

I knew I had to get the page created and ready to go for the upcoming posts I have in mind: A review of Rock Waterman’s new book, What to Expect When You’re Excommunicated, a review of Denver Snuffer‘s Sunstone talk, Cutting Down the Tree of Life to Build a Wooden Bridge, as well as his lectures from Las Vegas and St George – A Broken Heart and a Contrite Spirit. I loved Spektator’s talk on The Latter-day Apostasy. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, it is a landmark paper that should open the eyes of the most blind of the LDS members among us because of the sound scriptural support contained in the paper.

Renewing the Temple Recommend

I am meeting with my Bishop this evening to get my Temple Recommend renewed. As I wrote previously, I have resolved my hesitation in answering the affiliation question correctly. I now know the correct answer and know the Lord approves because I asked him. I have discussed it with my wife and several blogging buddies and readers in private emails. But just to review, here’s the logic. 1) The handbook is clear the priesthood leader is not supposed to deviate from the questions as recorded in the front of the recommend book. 2) When asked the affiliation question, the answer is no. 3) If the priesthood leader probes, ask for a copy of the official notice from Salt Lake that one cannot hold a temple recommend if they read works from Denver Snuffer. There isn’t one and won’t be one.

Hearing the Voice of the Lord

In one of the many conversations I enjoyed while at Sunstone, one of my readers wanted to understand better how to hear the voice of the Lord and discern it from our own thoughts and those of the adversary. I shared many of the experiences I have shared on these pages in greater detail, especially my encounters with the adversary and the importance of the baptism of fire. One of the greatest and most important works we must accomplish in this life is to receive that baptism. It is absolutely essential. I am a witness it is real, it can be obtained, and it is a distinct event – not just a process. Imagine my surprise when a discussion of that very subject came up during the Q&A with Denver. His response: “I promise you the Lord can and will speak to you in complete sentences to your understanding.”

An Additional Witness Has Come Forward

Some have asked for copies of my correspondence with the individual who claimed to have met with the Savior and Heavenly Father at the young age of twenty before he was a baptized member of the LDS Church. I have received his long – 47 page – account and a follow-up 24-page account. I share this with you as evidence there are others beyond the five previously documented cases – I have their affidavits on file – but I have promised him I would not share it on my blog or in any public forum. He authorized the release to two individuals who asked for it, but only if I felt it appropriate. After reading his accounts, I feel the need to engage him in additional dialog before I can share it – but never online – as promised.

An Apostasy From Within the LDS Church

The second document he shared is timely and prophetic. In my opinion – and he noted the same in his written account – there are some things about to come to pass that will amaze and astound the members of the church. I know it’s not fair to tease you like this, but I’ll give you a clue. It involves the fulfillment of D&C 112:24-26. I was introduced to a new word which I’m sure has been debunked by many of my readers, but I’ll throw it out there anyway – Laneshine. For those who follow the link, consider the source. Consider also 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. Has anybody studied this chapter that can offer an inspired interpretation? I’m an open minded guy and thought I had heard all the weird stuff, but this takes the cake. Rob: I’m keeping this private as we agreed – just asking for assistance.

The Gentile Church Will Reject the Fullness

I know this is one of the favorite arguments of those who are opposed to how Denver has interpreted the Book of Mormon. When I was first introduced to his writings I had a hard time with this concept but believe I have now come to understand it. Carol and I discussed this concept, along with many others, during our windshield time on our way home from Utah yesterday. That’s one of the benefits of long car rides together. The idea that the LDS Church could be in apostasy is such a disturbing idea, Carol said even thinking about it made her feel physically sick to her stomach. Here’s a little advice for those who believe this doctrine. Find ways to share it gently, especially to those whose ancestors were converted back in the days of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. It can be a tough thing to hear.

Open Invitation to Dialog

Many of you know I have agreed to a debate, or rather, a dialog with my long-time friend Bill Mason about the idea of the Lord sending messengers from outside the hierarchy of the LDS Church. I have written about this several times, especially in this post entitled, The Doctrine of Additional Prophets. I knew it hit a nerve by the number of “likes” it received but also by the number of private email messages sent to me with calls to repent, to please consider getting help in casting out whatever evil spirit was afflicting me and numerous requests to remove the post. I will never cease to be amazed why the open discussion of dissident ideas is so difficult for some people, especially those I admire, respect and have served with side by side in the priesthood for so many years. Can’t we just talk?

Comments Welcome on Any of These Ideas

Comments welcome below, on the new Facebook group, via private email, text or a phone call. Let me know how you feel about any of the ideas shared in this post. Help me learn how to present truth in a better way to unify the Saints. Thanks and God bless you my friends. And for the record, I want that temple recommend and believe I am worthy of obtaining it. I sustain the brethren, meaning I have voted for them to lead this church and am OK with following their direction when I know it’s pleasing to the Lord. I am not a “Follow the Prophet” kind of Mormon. I am a “Come unto Christ” kind of member. That’s my mantra. I will do as the Lord directs, and trust me, he does direct me. The heavens are not silent. I have heard his voice and have conversed with Him through the Veil. Cheers.

Conversation With The Bishop


PriesthoodLeadersThis is a fictional account. It is based on current events, but it is NOT how things went down with my Bishop. I have promised to keep that confidential. I share it because of the intense interest in the excommunication of various LDS bloggers in the news lately, including the impending disciplinary actions against Mormon Activists John Dehlin and Kate Kelly. I do not consider myself a Mormon activist. I considered it at one time, but it always seems to lead to excommunication. Enjoy.

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“Hi Brother Malone. How are you doing?”

“I’m fine, Bishop. Thanks for taking the time to chat with me.”

“You’re welcome. What would you like to talk about?”

The temple. Specifically the temple recommend questions.”

“Alright, any particular question that’s bothering you?”

“Yes, it’s the one that reads, ‘Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?’”

“I’ve very familiar with that one. What’s the trouble?”

“Well Bishop, you know we’re commanded to “…seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.”

“Of course. That’s D&C 88:118

“Sometimes I like to read books that some members of the church would find objectionable – you know, stuff from Signature Books, and SunStone publications, that sort of thing.”

“I’m not too familiar with those, but go on…”

“I also like to read blogs and listen to podcasts that some would say are, well… not faith-promoting or uplifting…”

“Why in the world would you want to do that? I barely have enough time to read the scriptures every day.”

“I know. You’re a very busy man. I’m glad you’re the bishop and not me. We always pray for you in our family.”

“Thank you, Tim. I feel the prayers of the members. Now, what’s this have to do with the temple questions?”

“There’s this one guy in particular who has written some really interesting stuff, but he’s been excommunicated…”

“I don’t know, Tim. I wouldn’t go there if I were you. It seems like dangerous ground. Why would you read his stuff?”

“He wasn’t excommunicated when I started reading his stuff. He has some great books on how we can come unto Christ.”

“OK, yeah. I think I’ve heard of him – Denver Snuffer, right? I still don’t think I would read his stuff, but go on…”

“It started as a simple book review. I enjoy sharing my thoughts on books I read. You know I have an LDS-themed blog.

“Oh, yes. I’m well aware of it. I don’t read it but other members have told me about it. You’ve got some controversial stuff.”

“I know. I started it just before Elder Ballard asked us to get involved in the online conversations about the church out there.”

“That’s good, Tim. Tell me how reading this apostate’s book is connected to the temple recommend question you quoted.”

“Remember, he wasn’t an apostate when he wrote most of his books. It’s only his last book that got him into trouble.

“OK, fine. But he’s now been excommunicated for apostasy so I wouldn’t touch his stuff. It seems like a waste of time.”

“I never did very well in school – had trouble with lectures. Didn’t get things until I read and studied it and then wrote about it.”

“I understand. So you’re a hands-on kind of learner, right? Lots of people are like that. They have trouble with lectures and talks.”

“Good. I’m glad. Thanks. That makes me feel better. So you get why I have to not just read stuff, but need to write things out.”

“I get it Brother Malone. Let’s circle back to the temple recommend question. Are you saying this guy teaches polygamy?”

“No, nothing like that. But he’s got a lot of good points that I hadn’t considered before, things that have to do with our history.”

“OK. Is he starting a church and asking people to join? Or are you just having some trouble with the questions he has raised?”

“No, he’s not starting a church. In fact, he’s encouraging everyone to stay in the church and continue to serve wherever asked.”

“So, what’s the problem?”

“Some of my blogging friends have been excommunicated simply for writing about this guys stuff.”

“And that troubles you….”

“Oh, yeah. There’s this church committee called the Strengthening the Church Members committee.”

“I guess I’ve never heard of it.”

“Yeah, I think Elder Holland or Elder Oaks called it a clipping service, but now everything’s on the Internet, so it more like a reading service.”

“You’re losing me. Why are you bringing this up?”

“Well, you know I’m a computer guy, right? That’s how I make my living.’

“OK, so?”

“Well, we bloggers are very interested in who reads our stuff, how they found us, what keyword searches they use and how long they stayed.”

“OK, makes sense.”

“We can track the visitors down to the IP address they use. We can almost pinpoint the physical address from where they read our stuff.”

“That doesn’t mean anything to me. Can you get to the point about the temple recommend question?”

“Alright, Bishop. I’m sorry. I just want to make sure you understand why I’m turning in my temple recommend.”

“You’re what?”

“Yeah. here you go.”

<Bishop looks stunned>

“I don’t know what to say. Why are you doing this? Is this because your friends have been excommunicated?

“I’m not really sure, bishop. I’m still trying to figure out my own feelings. I am kind of upset about that, but it’s a matter of honesty for me.”

“What do you mean?”

“If I were going for a temple recommend, having never been endowed, and you asked the affiliation question, I’d have to say yes.”

“You mean you agree with the stuff this apostate teaches?”

“I don’t know. But I do know I have sympathy for what my blogging buddies are going through – being ex’ed for simply reading a book.”

“OK. I can understand being upset about your blogging buddies, but you don’t know the whole story and never will. Only their leaders know.”

“Agreed. But because I like to be thorough in my research, I‘m going to attend a couple of the lectures of this excommunicated author next month.”

“I see. I’m going to hold on to your recommend. I think I need to talk to the Stake President about this. I’ve never run across this before.”

“Yeah, I’m sorry Bishop. I know I’m a pain in the rear. I just can’t answer ‘no’ to that question. I hope you’ll understand.”

“I do, Tim. I know you’re a good man. We’ve always appreciated your service over the years. Let’s get together next week with the Stake President.”

“Thanks, Bishop. I’ll look forward to it.”

My Defense Before the High Council


32493_000_01_Title.qxdOne of my readers, Steve, asked, “I wondered what you would do if your stake president told you to quit blogging about Denver or you would be exed.” This is a fictional account, based on that very possible what-if scenario that could happen:

What if members were called to account for themselves in regards to the books they read and what they publish on their blogs? Oh, how I hope and pray that day never arrives. Isn’t that what George Orwell’s 1984 was all about?

Standing Before the High Council

“Thank you, President, for allowing me to take a moment to speak. I’ll make this brief. I know your time is precious and I don’t want to prolong this council any longer than necessary. I know we would all like to return home to our families.

“First, please allow me to express how much I love and appreciate each of you brethren. I hope you can feel that. Even if I am excommunicated tonight, I am grateful to have been able to know each of you and to have served with you.

I Have Received Sacred Experiences

“Many years ago, I had some sacred spiritual experiences that convinced me God lived, loved me and had a plan for my life. I have also felt the love of my Savior so many times since that I have a sure and certain witness He is guiding my life.

“In many ways, I have given my life to this church. I’ve said many times and I’ll say it again. I’m simply your typical, average member. I love this church and love the people in it. I love to serve. I’ve always accepted every calling extended to me.

The Approved Curriculum

“Like many of you, I grew up being taught the restored gospel of Jesus Christ in primary, Sunday school, Seminary, Institute and priesthood quorums. I have always appreciated my brethren and sisters. They were just like me – regular folks. They tried to teach the approved curriculum by the spirit of inspiration.

“Sometimes that process can be a contradiction in terms. What we find and teach from our authorized curriculum is not always exactly the way things happened. That’s OK. It’s faith-promoting and invites the spirit of the Lord to attend us. So what if we leave out some little part of the actual story that makes us look bad?

Some Things Are Embellished

“I always felt it was not worth bringing things up when I knew the teacher was not exactly sharing the perfect truth, meaning the story he or she was relating was later proven to be hearsay or something with a little extra added. We all know, if we have studied our history that some stories are embellished or parts left out.

“I’m sure you know what I mean. Think of Paul Dunn for a moment. He did a lot of good. But the fact remains he embellished some of his stories. Do I love him any less for doing so? No, of course not. He helped me develop faith in the Lord.

My Testimony of Joseph

“I grew up reading the Book of Mormon at my mother’s knee. I literally learned to read from the Book of Mormon when I was five years old. I love that book. I learned long ago it is scripture and contains the word of God.

“Over the years I have made an extensive study of the life of Joseph Smith from as many sources as possible. I have read the good, the bad and the ugly. No matter what I have read that claims otherwise, I know Joseph was a prophet.

“Because of my witness, I knew I would serve a mission, marry in the temple and do all I was asked to do over the years to help build up the church through home teaching, serving in callings, paying tithing and trying to be a good example to others.

Asked to Write About the Church

“Shortly before Elder Ballard invited the members of the church to become more involved in the conversations taking place on the Internet, I decided to start my own blog. For those who don’t know, a blog is a website where you keep adding new entries over time. The newest entries always appear at the top of the page.

“At first I simply wrote rebuttals to stuff out there that I knew were lies. I work on the Internet for a living. I read a lot of web pages. It’s my job. I got tired of all the stuff I read out there by those who had an axe to grind against the church.

Members Who Have Doubts

“After a while I noticed those who responded were mainly other members, and then only members responded to my blog posts. They wanted to argue with me. They wanted to show me where I was wrong and why I should think otherwise.

“I considered them naive. I could not believe they were duped by some of the stories out there on the Internet. Even worse, I could not believe they had not read or heard these things growing up. It seemed they wanted to shock me with some new revelation they spouted about how Joseph practiced polygamy or polyandry.

Inoculated at an Early Age

“What they didn’t know is I had a mother who taught me to read and who had a library full of controversial LDS books. She was a teacher. We did not grow up with a television. Reading was something my family did. I grew up with four sisters. We went to the library each Saturday and came home with a dozen books.

“I mainly read science fiction, but I also read a lot of history, especially from my mother’s library – LDS history. Mother was a Gospel Doctrine teacher and she loved to research her subjects. I think I read No Man Knows My History when I was in seminary. I was probably only fourteen or fifteen years old at the time.

“For those who may not know, the author of that controversial book was President McKay’s niece. She was excommunicated for writing that book. I first learned of polygamy from Fawn Brodie, and more to the point, of Joseph’s polygamy. There are seminary students in our stake today who know absolutely nothing about polygamy or that we ever practiced it as a church, especially in Joseph’s time.

Sympathizing with an Apostate

“I stand before you today accused of sympathizing with an individual whose teachings are contrary to the official story of our church history as found in our curriculum. I can’t believe it has come to this. Are we now willing to discipline our own church members simply for what they read? I can see the importance of writing uplifting material, but not everything in our church history is uplifting.

“I have always made it a point to teach ONLY authorized material from the official curriculum when I am asked to teach or speak in church. However, this is my private blog, in which I quote what others have said about the church. I offer my opinion and sometimes additional insights that come to me as I write about them.

Encourage Others to Remain Faithful

“If I were publishing things in my blog that advocated members to leave the church then I could understand the reason for this council. I don’t encourage others to teach the things I write in my book reviews. I always reassure my readers they should teach only what is found in our official curriculum. That is what the Brethren have asked us to do and I sustain that decision. Milk before meat, right?

“My whole blog is about LDS-related book reviews and specifically books that deal with the doctrines of the Last Days – the Coming of the Lord and how it will happen. That’s all I write about and nothing more. I comment a lot on Denver Snuffer’s books because he has written so much in this area. His writings are controversial, especially now that he is probably about to be excommunicated.

My Testimony and Conclusion

“That’s all I wanted to say. I love this church. I know it is authorized by the Lord to preach the gospel, to perform the ordinances of salvation, to print the scriptures, to collect tithing and to build temples. I am happy to be a part of the work. I hope to contribute until the return of the Lord. I believe my blog helps some people who struggle come to grips with some of the more difficult parts of our history.

“I will do as this council directs. Specifically president, if you ask me to take my blog down or at least to stop publishing or reporting on what Denver Snuffers says as he conducts his lectures over the next year, I will do so. But I can’t believe we would let it come to such a thing – controlling the lives of our members like that.”

Can the Church Control Bloggers?

And that is the end of my imaginary defense I would offer if I were called in to defend myself for writing about Denver Snuffer and his teachings. By the way, I ran this by my wife. She thought it was funny and said I was being overly dramatic but I don’t think so. I’ve read of bloggers being asked to stop writing certain things about the church, haven’t you? There just seems to be something wrong with that.

The Lord Prepares Groups of People


TheSaviorKirtlandTempleI was pleased to be asked to substitute teach Gospel Doctrine class this week. It is about the closing of the Kirtland period, the first missions of the early Saints to Canada and later to England, then the exodus from Kirtland. Of course that exodus was not as dramatic as leaving Nauvoo, but it was nevertheless undertaken under duress, especially by the prophet Joseph.

Preparing to Teach

I enjoy teaching the gospel whenever I’m asked, just as I enjoy speaking in church whenever I’m asked. I have found over the years that I tend to over-prepare. I probably spent twenty hours this week reading various sources of church history, but mainly in The Life of Heber C. Kimball by Orson F. Whitney. I was amazed to read again the way the Lord prepared groups of people for the missionaries.

Entire Congregations

Both Heber C. Kimball and later Wilford Woodruff, converted and baptized entire congregations of hundreds, including most of their ministers. At one point in time, it was estimated that a full 80% of the church membership had descended from one of these early English converts. I know that’s true in my wife’s family. I, on the other hand, still consider myself to be a first generation Mormon.

A True Believing Mormon

While my wife’s family is from Utah – and wow there are a lot of them – I’m a California boy. I only bring that up because I tend to think of myself as not your typical Mormon. Although I have described myself as orthodox and conservative everywhere I write, I like to think that I’m more open-minded about some things. Let’s take Denver Snuffer for an example. Uh-oh, I know what you’re thinking.

Books from Denver Snuffer

When I first encountered the writings of Denver Snuffer, I knew right away that the Lord had either asked him or inspired him to write his books, or both. There’s just something about his style, his tone, the authority with which he writes, the depth and the importance of his subjects that causes him to stand out in my mind as someone who has something special and something very different.

A Divisive Individual

So I began to mention him on my blog, write a few reviews of his books and generally bring him to the attention of my readers. I was amazed and shocked by the response of some who found that my suggestion of even considering his legitimacy could have any merit. “How could you be such a fool, Tim? How could you be duped by someone who is an obvious charlatan and one who will lead you astray?”

Read the Material First

They didn’t use those exact words, at least not in the public comments, but in essence, that is what they were saying. Invariably, when I asked if they had read his material, almost all those who were opposed to his ideas, had not gone directly to the source. They were only responding to what they had read from others. Occasionally I’d have an intelligent private dialog with a few who had taken the time to read.

Beware of False Prophets

I have found that when people comment on Denver Snuffer on my blog, they tend to fall into one of two groups. The first believe he is another Warren Jeffs, Jim Harmston (died June 2013) or some other recent wanna-be prophet claiming that the LDS Church is apostate so they start their own. Most have no idea what Denver Snuffer has written. The second group has taken the time to seriously read his writings, consider them, pray about them and attempt to improve their lives by following his suggestions.

Stay Active in LDS Church

I guess I tend more towards the second group. I have read most everything he has written, or at least enough to know that the man is not inspired from the wrong source. There is some real substance to what he has written. Some of it is above me – way above me – but most of what he writes makes sense, especially the part about staying active in the LDS Church. I like that because I have lots of friends at church that I love dearly.

Private Discussion Groups

There are a number of online groups that discuss Denver’s writings, some public, but most private. I confess I belong to a few of them. I don’t contribute much there. I prefer to write on my own blog. This has always been my own spiritual journal so to speak. I have a separate journal that I have kept all my life, but I use my blog to “push the envelope” on spiritual areas I’m pondering so I can get feedback.

A Year-Long Lecture Tour

If you know anything about Denver or follow his blog, you know he has announced a series of lectures beginning on September 10th in Boise, running in various Intermountain West cities and ending in Phoenix a year later on September 9th, 2014. I’m glad they are being recorded because I would very much like to attend one of them but it doesn’t look like he will be making a visit to California on this road trip.

More and More Missionaries

One of the things Denver has pointed out is that the gathering of the elect in the very last days is a two-fold project – one conducted by the institutional LDS church – and one conducted by the angels of God. I am convinced the missionary changes announced last year by President Monson and which are already bearing fruit, at least in the number of missionaries we send out, is not the final gathering prophesied in the scriptures.

Hastening the Work

I believe it is simply a hastening of the work. The Lord is using the LDS Church to gather the elect. There is no doubt about that. But the Lord is also causing something wonderful to happening to various members of the church that puts them in another group – a group that is being prepared to be taught by angels and to eventually receive an audience with the resurrected Lord in this mortal life.

A Movement in the Church

I am being contacted by more and more individuals who want to talk privately about Denver and what they sense is happening in the church today. Some dialogs are via email, some on the phone, but all focus on the fact that we each want to receive a personal visitation from the Lord. Do you remember the terrible controversy this created when George Pace was rebuked by Elder McConkie for even suggesting such a thing?

An Audience With Christ

Maybe you’re too young but I remember it well. It put a real chill and damper on the church for a long time of anybody bringing that subject up again in Gospel Doctrine or a priesthood quorum. It’s almost as if we now give lip service to the idea of knowing the Lord, but we dare not say that we can indeed “know” Him, as in, have an audience with Him while in mortality. Why is that idea so bothersome to some people in our church?

Teach by the Spirit

I’m rambling and I know it. It’s late and I’ve got to get to bed to be ready to teach the gospel tomorrow. Although our block meets at 1pm, I still want to review the material I have prepared and petition the Lord for strength to teach by the spirit. I never want to be so married to the order or the exact content of my prepared material that I miss when the Lord whispers that I teach something a little differently that I had planned.

To my Regular Readers

Let me end by throwing this out there for discussion. Now I know I don’t have as many readers as I used to since I was dropped by ldsblogs.org, but the numbers show a couple hundred visitors a day – most who get here through a Google search on Denver Snuffer – in addition to a couple hundred subscribers who get my posts in an email or on their reader. I would like to know what you think about this.

A Risk of Missing Out

Specifically, what if the Lord really did appear to Denver Snuffer as he claimed? What if the Lord really did ask him to write his books? What if he is now asking him to take the message more directly to the LDS people via this series of lectures he is conducting over the next year starting in September? What if the Lord really does intend to see how we will respond to the message of this man some call an apostate?

Gathering the Elect

Did Jesus come from within the established ranks of the Jewish hierarchy when he came in the Meridian of Time to teach His gospel and establish his church? What if, just what if, the Lord really is sending Denver Snuffer out on these lectures to seek out and find those from within the church that are ready to be taught by angels and to receive an audience with the Lord? What if the Lord wants you to know something more?